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Elwynn

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Really well thought out. I hadn't thought of that Dawnshard quote referring to Nohadon, but it's a brilliant fit.

I wish I could upvote this twice...

As for the spren being pawns in a big game, there's a fair to decent chance that the only reason they are sentient is because of this change in the Oathpact. Syl is the only spren we see who seems sentient, and there's more than one indication that it's her bond with Kaladin that allows her to be sentient.

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But isn't what Truthspren require something akin to confessions? The first step toward honor is admitting your mistakes and taking responsibility for them.

Great post by the way! Lots to mull over in there and could explain a lot.

Edited by Droz
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Sorry to rain on your party, but I just realized something. If your power is tied to your intent, then it's probable that speaking the Words just formalizes your intent. Like how wedding vows formalize and bind the fact that you're in love with someone, making it deeper and more permanent.

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Seems more than formal, though. Wedding vows spoken aloud are what allows others to witness and verify you have taken them and therefore grant the couple special status in society, i.e. you're married, now you can file jointly for tax purposes...Congrats! It doesn't mean the love becomes more powerful or deeper, it's more of a legal requirement and religious ritual. And marraige is not required to love another. It appears the spoken oaths are required to access power for a potential KR.

Although the spoken words for a potential KR could be a formalization of the intent, it might be that the words must be spoken aloud to verify the intent and thus access the power available to someone of such intent. Which might mean, it must be heard by someone or something in order for the power to be granted to someone. After all, not all Shards can read minds can they?

If it was just a formal legalistic thing, it really wouldn't be necessary for someone to access the power, it would just be something cool to say before you power up. The way it was presented by Sanderson seems to imply there is something very important about the spoken words beyond announcing your intent to become more powerful. It's a ritual that grants power, not legal status.

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Seems more than formal, though. Wedding vows spoken aloud are what allows others to witness and verify you have taken them and therefore grant the couple special status in society, i.e. you're married, now you can file jointly for tax purposes...Congrats! It doesn't mean the love becomes more powerful or deeper, it's more of a legal requirement and religious ritual. And marraige is not required to love another. It appears the spoken oaths are required to access power for a potential KR.

Although the spoken words for a potential KR could be a formalization of the intent, it might be that the words must be spoken aloud to verify the intent and thus access the power available to someone of such intent. Which might mean, it must be heard by someone or something in order for the power to be granted to someone. After all, not all Shards can read minds can they?

If it was just a formal legalistic thing, it really wouldn't be necessary for someone to access the power, it would just be something cool to say before you power up. The way it was presented by Sanderson seems to imply there is something very important about the spoken words beyond announcing your intent to become more powerful. It's a ritual that grants power, not legal status.

I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond.

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Very nice theory, I love it when i read a theory and I'm already going, "Dam, didn't think of that!" only half way through. Definitely an up vote.

I don't think in this theory, the spren are necessarily simple pawns. Remember it's a TRADE powers for sentience. Syl talks about remembering a time before and knowing how she's the one changing Kaladin and it's a trade between her and him, his Surgebinding powers for sentience. I think this means that Syl was tied to a KR before. We get into, did spren exist before the Oathpact or perhaps because of it, but the fact that they gain sentience seems a good trade and something to note.

Also, the fact that she's a windspren before gaining sentience means that Honorspren may be a status, or classification of evolved spren. So the truthspren may be considered honorspren too after they form a bond with Shallan or Jasnah. In the same way, I know fire is one of the other parts in Ars Arcanum (Dustbringers?), and Kaladin is a Windrunner of Jezerien (wind) right? or was it Taln, so i think it's possible firespren could become Honorspren too, etc. I'm not saying any and all spren can become Honorspren, just the ones tied to the Heralds, this goes with Surgebinding itself being modeled after the Heralds.

This may mean there are something like Voidspren, if we follow this theory of balance, and consider Honorspren as a status/classification sort of thing. But maybe not, IF Szeth is Voidbinding and his apparent lack of spren companion, Voidbinding may not necessarily work in mirror junction as it was a 'forced' creation to balance out surgebindg. But I think this makes a lot of sense, considering the complete likeness of Syl as a windspren before, and what seems like Truthspren serving the same role with Shallan and probably Jasnah, and Elhokar with symbol spren? Seems just a little bit more plausible than a separate Honorspren and them all looking different and functioning and behavior being all different (there's almost nothing similar between truthspren and windspren that we've seen so far).

@ReaderAt2046 The speaking of the words might be important part of the theory that actually helps it too. Like you said, it's sort of legalizing or whatever, it's like promising to follow these ideals, and it's possible that the Honorspren are acting as the witness of sort to the contract/covenant/promise, or maybe they're the recipient of the contract, or they're serving as witnesses to the contract with Honor?

(Okay crazy idea just now, you know how Honor died? Maybe that's why there hasn't been a surgebinder for centuries, now there's a new holder of the Shard? Yeah I know not thought out, just wanted mention since it popped in my head just now).

This would add another importance of the Honorspren and the nahel bond?

Regarding the light eyes thing, I think it's important to note that so far, the only people confirmed to feel the Thrill are the light eyes. Maybe it has to do with wearing shardplate or wielding a shardblade (not sure if it's been confirmed that Sadeas feels it too). Dalinar talks about it as if it's fairly normal, but all instances we've seen are shardbearers so... But this Thrill business and eye color might be an important distinction later on.

Edited by fiveAM
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"I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond."

Okay, I think we're probably agreeing then and I have reading comprehension problems. By "formal" you mean binding, i.e. the contract is now in effect and all advantages therein are now conferred...sometimes when I say "formally", I mean lets do it so everyone can witness it, although this thing is already done. I don't think you meant it in the way I was thinking of it, thus my misunderstanding. Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree.

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"I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond."

Okay, I think we're probably agreeing then and I have reading comprehension problems. By "formal" you mean binding, i.e. the contract is now in effect and all advantages therein are now conferred...sometimes when I say "formally", I mean lets do it so everyone can witness it, although this thing is already done. I don't think you meant it in the way I was thinking of it, thus my misunderstanding. Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree.

Thank you for understanding :)

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Guest Jacob Santos

Your premise is flawed, but no more or less than other theories. When future books come out explaining the system in more depth, I believe your theory will be cut to ribbons.

Your premise, I so believe, is based on the assumption that magic systems can be changed or modified. This has not been shown to be true. On Elantris, the change to the magic system was slight. The overall magic system stayed the same. For your system to work, the ideals would have already been part of the magic system wanting for someone to find it. Alas, the magic system on Harmony's World was also unchanged.

The changes to the magic systems that have been shown have been through natural events and still was contained by natural laws of that world. No man was capable of changing the magic system. There has been no example of it. Alas, you also have a chicken and egg problem. How do you change a magic system working within its bounds and limitations using the magic system. You can't, unless the writer is sloppy or lazy and wishes to add a "twist" however arbitrary and unlikely it is. It has been done before, but usually when the limitations haven't been known.

Nohadon's Vision / Flashback

My impression and interpretation was that the spren alone couldn't bind the surgebinders to do good alone. They needed something more to keep them "good" and honorable.

If you have forgotten, part of the battle and why it went so badly was that another King decided to go and start a war before the Desolation even got started. By the time the Desolation came, already many people were dieing. This is foreboding, in my opinion. The King thought he was doing a good thing that started the war, much like the King who owns the Truthless.

You can not force people to be honorable. You have to teach them and explain to them why they need to be honorable. Although, technically, Nohadon did conquer the world and bring many kingdoms to heel, afterwards, he set forth reasons so that history did not repeat itself. Once a force is set forth and really, really good reasons for the system (keeping ready for the Desolations), then it will keep for generations.

The Military breaks people, because it knows that an independent mind, while great in some circumstances, is bad for the team. A person in war needs to work together, needs to follow their leader without pause and attack without thought. Same sort of system. Delinar tried to show by example that being honorable is the way to go, but people who are set in their ways will not change based on that alone.

You need to break them, which is the path Delinar has set for himself and his team. It will be hard, difficult and he has the teachings of someone who has already went down that path and can use his writings to shorten and solidify his path.

The book in this way serves its dual purpose. People are selfish and forgetful and oft lazy. The easiest and simple path is one of dishonor and so every so often people need to be reminded of the reasons behind honor.

But truth be told, the Way of Kings and the ideals of the Radiants are and, or could be separate.

Dawnshards Binding

Food for Thought: What if taking up the Dawnshards forces you to take the oathpact and thus become immortal and tortured until you choose to stop?

It is unknown how it is possible to force a champion for Odium. Maybe you're right and the Dawnshards can force that.

I still contend that since you are basing your theory on the premise that the magic system was changed, that when it is revealed to be impossible, that your entire theory will be thrown out. A fallacy of logic for sure, but no less the truth.

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Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree.

I like that. Honorspren grant powers to honorable people. however people have to realize what honor is by themselves. when they get it and live it, the spren is attracted. We've seen it with Kaladin and Syl. Speaking the Oaths would then reinforce the bonds, the spren granting more power.

But you have to MEAN them. The first Oath (life before death etc.) is spoken by some people in the book. I believe Dalinar spoke them once (or just thought them?) and one of the bridgemen (Teft or Szigil IIRC). Merely speaking isn't enough. You have to act honorable and mean the words.

Question: hasn't Dalinar acted honorable enough? I believe buying the bridgemen with his Shardblade would be worth attracting an Honorspren. His preception of honor is not exactly the same as Kaladin's IMO.

For the bridgeman it would be that he just doesn't act in a distinctive honorable way. and he is just repeating the first Oath of the KR. He certainly doesn't mean them to be binding.

Dawnshards Binding

Food for Thought: What if taking up the Dawnshards forces you to take the oathpact and thus become immortal and tortured until you choose to stop?

It is unknown how it is possible to force a champion for Odium. Maybe you're right and the Dawnshards can force that.

I once expressed my idea that Dawnshards could be the Heralds blades because they seem to be some manifestation of the bond to the Oathpact. Now, if the KR or the other humans present at the Last Desolation picked up those blades... I don't know if Odium would accept anything other than Heralds to torture though.

Following questions: Do you automatically get bound by picking up a blade? We still have no clue where those have gone.

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I think Dalinar simply isn't as far along as Kal. His spren hasn't manifested at all, for example. If my theory is correct, you have to reach a certain level of bonding before you can formalize it with the Oath.

BTW, another point on the Ideals, better explained using Shallan as the example. When Shallan takes the Second Oath of Truth (the second ideal of her order), I think she will be always assumed to be acting truthfully, thus enabling her to Soulcast without having to reveal a new truth each time. Like the Second Oath locks the bond in the position that it goes to when she speaks a truth.

Finally, something I just noticed. Kaldin's Second Oath binds him to "protect those who cannot protect themselves". Well, one of the Windrunner Attributes is protection.

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Yeah, and I feel Kaladin has been through a lot more traumatic and difficult experiences than Dalinar has. This probably forced along changes in his beliefs, etc. After Dalinar's betrayal by Sadeas, I think Dalinar will probably start manifesting as a KR.

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...

Question: hasn't Dalinar acted honorable enough? I believe buying the bridgemen with his Shardblade would be worth attracting an Honorspren. His preception of honor is not exactly the same as Kaladin's IMO.

For the bridgeman it would be that he just doesn't act in a distinctive honorable way. and he is just repeating the first Oath of the KR. He certainly doesn't mean them to be binding.

...

How do you know that Dalinar hasn't attracted an Honorspren? These people are trained from birth to ignore spren. Syl starts messing with Kaladin in the army. He doesn't start paying attention to her until he has been a slave for a long time. When he does start noticing her, his first thoughts are about how anybody can catch a spren and he should ignore her until she goes away. Spren are pointless, annoying nuisances to most of the people of Roshar, somewhat like a cold*.

I believe that there is a spren involved with Dalinar that manifests in his revulsion and thoughts that he doesn't recognize as being his own. Jasnah seems to understand the role of the spren. It will be interesting to see what happens when they get together.

Cheers

*supporting quote from chapter 2, p55:

... Anyone could end up drawing a spren, but you learned early that talking to one was pointless. ...
Edited by hoser
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Guest Jacob Santos

I once expressed my idea that Dawnshards could be the Heralds blades because they seem to be some manifestation of the bond to the Oathpact. Now, if the KR or the other humans present at the Last Desolation picked up those blades... I don't know if Odium would accept anything other than Heralds to torture though.

Following questions: Do you automatically get bound by picking up a blade? We still have no clue where those have gone.

It wasn't a real theory, just a counter or rebuttal.

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How do you know that Dalinar hasn't attracted an Honorspren? These people are trained from birth to ignore spren. Syl starts messing with Kaladin in the army. He doesn't start paying attention to her until he has been a slave for a long time. When he does start noticing her, his first thoughts are about how anybody can catch a spren and he should ignore her until she goes away. Spren are pointless, annoying nuisances to most of the people of Roshar, somewhat like a cold.

I believe that there is a spren involved with Dalinar that manifests in his revulsion and thoughts that he doesn't recognize as being his own. Jasnah seems to understand the role of the spren. It will be interesting to see what happens when they get together.

Cheers

I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him).

BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner.

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I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him).

BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner.

yay, somebody agrees with me about Dalinar's order.

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I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him).

BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner.

I don't have a strong opinion about his order. The eighth order, Kak/Resolute, does seem to fit pretty well. The following quote seems of interest in that question (Chapter 69, paperback p1203):

"Because I finally know exactly what to do," Dalinar sais, standing up straight. "I was trying to be Nohadon the peacemaker. But I'm not. I'm the Blackthorn, a general and a warlord. I have no talent for backroom politicking, but I am very good at training troops. ... "

To me, training troops would fit well with the secondary attribute of that order: Builder.

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I really like this Nohadon theory. Especially because it relates to Dalinar's trajectory. He's constantly being told to "unite them," but it's not until the end of the book that he realizes that he can't just hope for people to band together; he's going to have to force them together.

He realizes that Nohadon probably had to do something similar, and then afterwards he wrote the Way of Kings. If we follow the theory in the OP, the way that Nohadon accomplishes that was by dragging a Dawnshard to Urithiru and re-binding everybody to a new version of the magic system.

What if Dalinar is meant to do the same thing? Fix the magic system by re-binding it according to rules of Honor? Maybe it's the only thing that finally gets Szeth to quit trying to assassinate him, too.

Of course, where is Dalinar going to get a Dawnshard? I suggest that the original 10 shardblades in the prelude, abandoned in that rocky place, are the Dawnshards. That rocky place that could potentially be the original Shattered Plains.

Dalinar is conveniently located next to the Shattered Plains. And the Parshendi do everything they can to defend and hide the depths of the Shattered Plains... possibly because there's a bunch of Dawnshards sticking in the ground there.

So Dalinar, in order to unite everyone like his idol Nohadon did, will need to fight his way to the center of the Shattered Plains, get a Dawnshard, figure out where Urithiru is and how to get there, and then use it to bind everyone.

I like this theory because I can see how that would work as a story, taking our character through a lot of Chekov's Guns and also leaving lots of room for great action scenes, conflict, and myth-exploration.

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Your theory includes some good ideas, at least I fully agree that Nohadon did something important. On how and what exactly, I'm with Jacob Santos, I don't believe it's possible to change a magic system. but well, this doens't help.

When I reread the book I realized that someone spoke to our precious bridgeleader. which is not that big a realization. But the one spoke in capitals. Like Death from the Discworld novels. Syl had already pleaded to Kaladin to speak the words, but not in capitals and she had never spoken in capitals before.

The only other time someone speaks in capitals afaik is when Kaladin is riding the storm in his dream. I'm sure capitals mean something, BS did this in purpose. When Honor spoke to Dalinar, he spoke normally.

If the one speaking was indeed Jezrien, the Stormfather (which is not more plausible than other ideas) then we also have to figure out how Jezrien (or anyone except a Shard)could speak to Kaladin in that moment.

Did you think about this, Elwynn? Would be glad to read your thoughts about it.

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I agree that it's not possible to change the underlying rules of a magic system but don't forget that the rules the characters tell each other about how magic works are not necessarily the actual underlying rules.

Look at Scadrial. The rules Wax knows about the distribution of Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are quite different from the rules in the original trilogy. Of course, we as readers have the perspective to see that the magic system has not changed, the conditions have. (Specifically, the Spiritual population genetics of the Scadrialese are different between the two eras.)

What we forget is that the underlying rules of the Metallic Arts, or any of the Shardwords' magic systems, are not _the rules_ either. The real rules involve the interaction between the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical realms, and we have only the vaguest of ideas of how that works.

All that to say: just because the underlying rules of magic can't change doesn't mean that Nohadon can't have changed the way the Nahel bond works as posited by the OP.

(HoA spoilers:)

In fact, something very similar seems to have happened on Scadrial--Harmony changed the way snapping works. So Shards, at least, can change the way that magic is acquired. If the Dawnshards are some kind of link to Honor's power - splinters, perhaps - then it seems reasonable that they could do they same thing.

Also, Preservation replaced Pulsers and Sliders with Seers and Malatium mistings; apparently this change was reverted after Harmony took over.

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