Popular Post Elwynn Posted February 7, 2012 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Nohadon Windrunner got me thinking about some things. And it kind of spiraled out of control. This is a flow of thought…which I tried to clean up and present evidence for. But I just had to get it down while it was crossing my mind. The first part is musings; leading up to a theory Windrunner had me thinking about. “Only honorpsren are bonded for surgebinding.” Okay. So can everyone agree that radiants are nothing more than surgebinders who have accessed higher levels of power? I know there is a lot more that goes into it…morality, theology, lifestyle…sanderson said himself, “on roshar, it’s about what you do.” But can everyone agree that at the base of it, radiants are surgebinders who have become more powerful with stormlight? But how? The way of kings obviously, but how the hell can words bring more power? It’s ideals to live by that seemingly grant radiants their power, however we’ve seen first hand how simply speaking the words can take you to the next level of surgebinding. Presumably if you’re ready…and living properly…like Kaladin. That’s my qualm. Why would these words be what brings power? And why didn’t surgebinders know these words? The words, ‘spark in Kaladin’s mind,’ though he had no prior knowledge of them…except for Syl seeming to know something is up. But surgebinders have always had spren, even honorspren, and even in Nohadon’s day. Why no ‘spark’ of words then? “And so, does the destination matter? Or is it the path we take? I declare that no accomplishment has substance nearly as great as the road used to achieve it. We are not creatures of destinations. It is the journey that shapes us. Our callused feet, our backs strong from carrying the weight of travels, our eyes open with the fresh delight of experiences lived.“In the end, I must proclaim that no good can be achieved of false means. For the substance of our existence is not in the achievement, but in the method. The Monarch must understand this; he must not become so focused on what he wishes to accomplish that he diverts his gaze from the path he must take to arrive there.” That’s pretty much spot on with the First Ideal. I mean eerily spot on. It’s tough to get closer to ‘Journey before Destination.’ And again, it’s the words that make you better with stormlight. But if the words existed before Nohadon…how did Nohadon hit it so perfectly by accident? More importantly, if the words are Immortal, why didn’t the Almighty just tell everyone this in the first place? I mean, the Almighty straight up tells Dalinar the Immortal Words…the First Ideal…in his last vision (or first, depending on the view), but also tells him to ‘read the book’ in a previous vision. Why mention Nohadon? Why read the book when you're handing out the words? Even if the Almighty couldn’t just hand them out, why would the Heralds not say anything? Because… Nohadon’s time… The Heralds were just there, I mean JUST there. Nohadon’s people are still clearing bodies, ‘heard initial reports…what will the heralds find when they next return?’ So everyone from then knew the heralds…Nohadon might have interacted personally with several of them. So why no mention of the Almighty, or of honorable acts leading to more power? Nohadon’s people obviously know the symbol for the Almighty’s double eye/hourglass that the radiants later used, but no mention of the Almighty or honor. The world even seems torn at that time…between people like Nohadon and the rest of the world, arguing over whether their power is proof of divine election to rule. (Nohadon’s beliefs are obviously of the minority) Why wouldn’t the Heralds set them straight? Why not tell them about the Almighty? Hell, why not tell them the Immortal words and help create the radiants? I’m getting to the Oathpact. Hold on. We'll get back to this. (Also, it seems important to remember that the Ideals the radiants used from tWoK are modeled after the Heralds…not the Almighty. With the Heralds representing one of the ten facets of the divine prism, and each order then modeling themselves after each Herald.) Now, “Often I wonder what my experience in life—my easy life following the Desolation, and my current level of comfort—has given me of any true experience to use in making laws.” Compared with… “…nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead. Do we even have kingdoms to rule any longer? Sur is gone, I’m sure of it. Tarma, Eiliz, they won’t likely survive. Too many of their people have fallen.” “The world as we know it has quite nearly been destroyed,” Nohadon said. “Barely a family exists that hasn’t lost half its members! Our best men are corpses on that field, and we haven’t food to last more than two or three months at best.” This doesn’t jive. There is no way the world can be in the shape it is, and Nohadon still consider it an easy life following the desolation. He would have nations to check up on, after securing and rebuilding his own. Foodstuffs and stockpiles to replenish. Try to convince other kings not to seek advantage over one another, or else to conquer them. Not an easy life. That’s not even easily manageable in an entire life. Much less be able to call it, ‘easy…following the desolation.’ No. Something dramatic changed shortly after the desolation. And it put Nohadon in control of everything. Sorry for the deviation... So we have simple words, unbeknownst to all, even the Heralds and spren, somehow instantly bring surgebinders more power with stormlight. But that doesn’t make sense. It would mean that the Almighty didn’t set these specifications. I mean, how could words written by Nohadon be what brings more power? Shouldn’t it just be living an honorable life; being closer to Tanavast/Honor in lifestyle that brings the graduation of power for a radiant? Instead it’s words written by a man that are the key to unlocking the next step. More so, you have honorspren that each bond to a model of a Heralds’ divine attribute…and without the Heralds knowing any of this? Wouldn’t the Heralds know it is all from the Almighty? Immortality, Honorblades, Surgebinding, etc. The people all know the Heralds’ divine attributes (of the Almighty)…presumably because the Heralds told them. Why not tell them, ‘live honorably, and maybe the Almighty will bless you.’ Or, ‘That honorspren requires something more of you, perhaps you should reevaluate your decisions in life.’ Which still doesn’t even account for the words being needed. During desolations and stuff…don’t you think the heralds would immediately hand out instructions to give allies more hope? Even if they’d forgotten everything? Something to give them better chances? To give them a chance? Nohadon’s entire world is gone. Population easily cut right in half, at the very least. And probably much more than that; entire countries/nations are dead. So why would the heralds not do anything? They fought for ELEVEN years. Why would they say nothing of surgebinders? And not a single surgebinder, even those with honorspren, ever ‘spark’ any words? Because the words didn’t exist yet, it has got to be as simple as that. Crazy, I know. Now, take the Oathpact…and if you get really crazy for a second… What explains how the simple words of a man can bring power to a surgebinder? And without the Heralds, the spren or the Almighty knowing these words prior? A new binding to the Oathpact. I think Nohadon found Honor and Odium. Okay…maybe not really like that. I think he found a Dawnshard. And this let him ‘find’ Honor, Odium, and the Oathpact. “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” I think this is Nohadon. Hang with me. Now, I have no idea what a Dawnshard is. But even the Almighty thinks highly of them. And they seem to have an effect on binding the enemy. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion…but it is not certain. And…without the Dawnshards…” So a Dawnshard seems kind of like it allows an amendment to the Oathpact, doesn’t it? And that it would be very difficult without one? So what if Nohadon created the way for radiants? What if he found a Dawnshard, and changed the magic system/spren. What if that’s why his words are the key? So much so that the Almighty later references them? “If only there were a way to encourage them…” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”“Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.” So if Nohadon could make a binding—add an amendment of his words—and change the magic system to how he thought it should be; well it would be precisely what it is today. Only honorspren will bond for surgebinding, and only honorable actions receive more power. Better yet…he would be the only one who knew the words. And every Nahel bond besides honorbound, would dissipate. And being a more honorable system… Not only could he offer surgebinders more power if they follow him, but by being tied to the honorspren, it also insured the wrong people couldn’t fake it. That they were already on the right path. And all of this would leave lots of spren in the world that aren’t needed for bonding anymore. They would just wander around…attracted to strong emotions and states of being. Specifically…maybe those they used to bond with. But like Kabsal tries to explain…the cosmere balanced out the good with the bad. “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal…” The Oathpact. Odium got in on the deal. You change the rules and bind one side with the Dawnshard…the other side gets bound as well. Nohadon mentions Yelig-nar, Heralds, surgebinding, soulcasting…no voidbinding. The deal Nohadon made was bound to the Heralds, modeling the Ideals after their divine attributes; and in some way, this allowed modeling behavior after the Unmade an equally rewarding magic system. Boom, voidbinding. Rewrite the rules…pay the price of balance. The Oathpact. I spoke of more honor=more power. Somewhere in there Nohadon would have to account for the Blades and Plate. Now, if Nohadon found the Almighty/Odium and the Oathpact. Naturally, changing the magic system to be more honorable/only honorspren would bring everyone closer to Tanavast; making for much stronger surgebinders. All you would need is the words to restrict the most power to the most honorable. “Perhaps Wit should have been bemused by the stock these people put in something as simple as eye color…“And, of course, there was a reason the people did what they did. Well, there was usually a reason. In this case, it just happened to be a good one.” This plays into the eyes of some of the radiants ‘glowing’ ‘almost white.’ I think this could be the higher tiers of radiant powers. After the later Ideals. Brighter eyes=more honorable in life=more ideals spoken=more power with stormlight. The people with the lightest eyes would have been the most honorable, distorted through Vorinism and the passing of time, into what we have today—Lighteyes are the most honorable. So…Blades and Plate. I now postulate as the uppermost tier of radiants’ power: Investiture. The ability to throw stormlight earned (like in the eyes), into objects. To permanently change them, a sort of super soulcasting available at the highest tier. So that’s it. Quite a few problems. Worst of which is the spren would just be pawns in a big game, which makes me feel bad for them. But I just had to share that. 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 That is brilliant! It explains what the Dawnshards are, why only Honorspren can be bound, and where voidbinding came from! +1 reputation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Really well thought out. I hadn't thought of that Dawnshard quote referring to Nohadon, but it's a brilliant fit. I wish I could upvote this twice... As for the spren being pawns in a big game, there's a fair to decent chance that the only reason they are sentient is because of this change in the Oathpact. Syl is the only spren we see who seems sentient, and there's more than one indication that it's her bond with Kaladin that allows her to be sentient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 What about the Truthspren bond? They can still bind and give powers, as well, and require nothin in the way of honor - just truths,or rather secrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) But isn't what Truthspren require something akin to confessions? The first step toward honor is admitting your mistakes and taking responsibility for them. Great post by the way! Lots to mull over in there and could explain a lot. Edited February 8, 2012 by Droz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikomis Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I wish I could upvote this twice... Wish granted. I was on the fence about voting because some of it went over my head (need a reread of WoK) but I voted anyway because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Sorry to rain on your party, but I just realized something. If your power is tied to your intent, then it's probable that speaking the Words just formalizes your intent. Like how wedding vows formalize and bind the fact that you're in love with someone, making it deeper and more permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Seems more than formal, though. Wedding vows spoken aloud are what allows others to witness and verify you have taken them and therefore grant the couple special status in society, i.e. you're married, now you can file jointly for tax purposes...Congrats! It doesn't mean the love becomes more powerful or deeper, it's more of a legal requirement and religious ritual. And marraige is not required to love another. It appears the spoken oaths are required to access power for a potential KR. Although the spoken words for a potential KR could be a formalization of the intent, it might be that the words must be spoken aloud to verify the intent and thus access the power available to someone of such intent. Which might mean, it must be heard by someone or something in order for the power to be granted to someone. After all, not all Shards can read minds can they? If it was just a formal legalistic thing, it really wouldn't be necessary for someone to access the power, it would just be something cool to say before you power up. The way it was presented by Sanderson seems to imply there is something very important about the spoken words beyond announcing your intent to become more powerful. It's a ritual that grants power, not legal status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Seems more than formal, though. Wedding vows spoken aloud are what allows others to witness and verify you have taken them and therefore grant the couple special status in society, i.e. you're married, now you can file jointly for tax purposes...Congrats! It doesn't mean the love becomes more powerful or deeper, it's more of a legal requirement and religious ritual. And marraige is not required to love another. It appears the spoken oaths are required to access power for a potential KR. Although the spoken words for a potential KR could be a formalization of the intent, it might be that the words must be spoken aloud to verify the intent and thus access the power available to someone of such intent. Which might mean, it must be heard by someone or something in order for the power to be granted to someone. After all, not all Shards can read minds can they? If it was just a formal legalistic thing, it really wouldn't be necessary for someone to access the power, it would just be something cool to say before you power up. The way it was presented by Sanderson seems to imply there is something very important about the spoken words beyond announcing your intent to become more powerful. It's a ritual that grants power, not legal status. I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveAM Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Very nice theory, I love it when i read a theory and I'm already going, "Dam, didn't think of that!" only half way through. Definitely an up vote. I don't think in this theory, the spren are necessarily simple pawns. Remember it's a TRADE powers for sentience. Syl talks about remembering a time before and knowing how she's the one changing Kaladin and it's a trade between her and him, his Surgebinding powers for sentience. I think this means that Syl was tied to a KR before. We get into, did spren exist before the Oathpact or perhaps because of it, but the fact that they gain sentience seems a good trade and something to note. Also, the fact that she's a windspren before gaining sentience means that Honorspren may be a status, or classification of evolved spren. So the truthspren may be considered honorspren too after they form a bond with Shallan or Jasnah. In the same way, I know fire is one of the other parts in Ars Arcanum (Dustbringers?), and Kaladin is a Windrunner of Jezerien (wind) right? or was it Taln, so i think it's possible firespren could become Honorspren too, etc. I'm not saying any and all spren can become Honorspren, just the ones tied to the Heralds, this goes with Surgebinding itself being modeled after the Heralds. This may mean there are something like Voidspren, if we follow this theory of balance, and consider Honorspren as a status/classification sort of thing. But maybe not, IF Szeth is Voidbinding and his apparent lack of spren companion, Voidbinding may not necessarily work in mirror junction as it was a 'forced' creation to balance out surgebindg. But I think this makes a lot of sense, considering the complete likeness of Syl as a windspren before, and what seems like Truthspren serving the same role with Shallan and probably Jasnah, and Elhokar with symbol spren? Seems just a little bit more plausible than a separate Honorspren and them all looking different and functioning and behavior being all different (there's almost nothing similar between truthspren and windspren that we've seen so far). @ReaderAt2046 The speaking of the words might be important part of the theory that actually helps it too. Like you said, it's sort of legalizing or whatever, it's like promising to follow these ideals, and it's possible that the Honorspren are acting as the witness of sort to the contract/covenant/promise, or maybe they're the recipient of the contract, or they're serving as witnesses to the contract with Honor? (Okay crazy idea just now, you know how Honor died? Maybe that's why there hasn't been a surgebinder for centuries, now there's a new holder of the Shard? Yeah I know not thought out, just wanted mention since it popped in my head just now). This would add another importance of the Honorspren and the nahel bond? Regarding the light eyes thing, I think it's important to note that so far, the only people confirmed to feel the Thrill are the light eyes. Maybe it has to do with wearing shardplate or wielding a shardblade (not sure if it's been confirmed that Sadeas feels it too). Dalinar talks about it as if it's fairly normal, but all instances we've seen are shardbearers so... But this Thrill business and eye color might be an important distinction later on. Edited February 9, 2012 by fiveAM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dros Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 "I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond." Okay, I think we're probably agreeing then and I have reading comprehension problems. By "formal" you mean binding, i.e. the contract is now in effect and all advantages therein are now conferred...sometimes when I say "formally", I mean lets do it so everyone can witness it, although this thing is already done. I don't think you meant it in the way I was thinking of it, thus my misunderstanding. Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 "I think you're missing my point. In the same way that God requires that you marry someone to formalize your love, Honor by his very nature might require that the Words be spoken to strengthen the bond." Okay, I think we're probably agreeing then and I have reading comprehension problems. By "formal" you mean binding, i.e. the contract is now in effect and all advantages therein are now conferred...sometimes when I say "formally", I mean lets do it so everyone can witness it, although this thing is already done. I don't think you meant it in the way I was thinking of it, thus my misunderstanding. Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree. Thank you for understanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jacob Santos Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Your premise is flawed, but no more or less than other theories. When future books come out explaining the system in more depth, I believe your theory will be cut to ribbons. Your premise, I so believe, is based on the assumption that magic systems can be changed or modified. This has not been shown to be true. On Elantris, the change to the magic system was slight. The overall magic system stayed the same. For your system to work, the ideals would have already been part of the magic system wanting for someone to find it. Alas, the magic system on Harmony's World was also unchanged. The changes to the magic systems that have been shown have been through natural events and still was contained by natural laws of that world. No man was capable of changing the magic system. There has been no example of it. Alas, you also have a chicken and egg problem. How do you change a magic system working within its bounds and limitations using the magic system. You can't, unless the writer is sloppy or lazy and wishes to add a "twist" however arbitrary and unlikely it is. It has been done before, but usually when the limitations haven't been known. Nohadon's Vision / Flashback My impression and interpretation was that the spren alone couldn't bind the surgebinders to do good alone. They needed something more to keep them "good" and honorable. If you have forgotten, part of the battle and why it went so badly was that another King decided to go and start a war before the Desolation even got started. By the time the Desolation came, already many people were dieing. This is foreboding, in my opinion. The King thought he was doing a good thing that started the war, much like the King who owns the Truthless. You can not force people to be honorable. You have to teach them and explain to them why they need to be honorable. Although, technically, Nohadon did conquer the world and bring many kingdoms to heel, afterwards, he set forth reasons so that history did not repeat itself. Once a force is set forth and really, really good reasons for the system (keeping ready for the Desolations), then it will keep for generations. The Military breaks people, because it knows that an independent mind, while great in some circumstances, is bad for the team. A person in war needs to work together, needs to follow their leader without pause and attack without thought. Same sort of system. Delinar tried to show by example that being honorable is the way to go, but people who are set in their ways will not change based on that alone. You need to break them, which is the path Delinar has set for himself and his team. It will be hard, difficult and he has the teachings of someone who has already went down that path and can use his writings to shorten and solidify his path. The book in this way serves its dual purpose. People are selfish and forgetful and oft lazy. The easiest and simple path is one of dishonor and so every so often people need to be reminded of the reasons behind honor. But truth be told, the Way of Kings and the ideals of the Radiants are and, or could be separate. Dawnshards Binding Food for Thought: What if taking up the Dawnshards forces you to take the oathpact and thus become immortal and tortured until you choose to stop? It is unknown how it is possible to force a champion for Odium. Maybe you're right and the Dawnshards can force that. I still contend that since you are basing your theory on the premise that the magic system was changed, that when it is revealed to be impossible, that your entire theory will be thrown out. A fallacy of logic for sure, but no less the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telcontar Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Syl is pleading with him to say the words and a voice in his mind comes outright and says, "The Words" or something like that. So Syl or whoever the voice originates with, needs to hear them...formally. I agree. I like that. Honorspren grant powers to honorable people. however people have to realize what honor is by themselves. when they get it and live it, the spren is attracted. We've seen it with Kaladin and Syl. Speaking the Oaths would then reinforce the bonds, the spren granting more power. But you have to MEAN them. The first Oath (life before death etc.) is spoken by some people in the book. I believe Dalinar spoke them once (or just thought them?) and one of the bridgemen (Teft or Szigil IIRC). Merely speaking isn't enough. You have to act honorable and mean the words. Question: hasn't Dalinar acted honorable enough? I believe buying the bridgemen with his Shardblade would be worth attracting an Honorspren. His preception of honor is not exactly the same as Kaladin's IMO. For the bridgeman it would be that he just doesn't act in a distinctive honorable way. and he is just repeating the first Oath of the KR. He certainly doesn't mean them to be binding. Dawnshards Binding Food for Thought: What if taking up the Dawnshards forces you to take the oathpact and thus become immortal and tortured until you choose to stop? It is unknown how it is possible to force a champion for Odium. Maybe you're right and the Dawnshards can force that. I once expressed my idea that Dawnshards could be the Heralds blades because they seem to be some manifestation of the bond to the Oathpact. Now, if the KR or the other humans present at the Last Desolation picked up those blades... I don't know if Odium would accept anything other than Heralds to torture though. Following questions: Do you automatically get bound by picking up a blade? We still have no clue where those have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I think Dalinar simply isn't as far along as Kal. His spren hasn't manifested at all, for example. If my theory is correct, you have to reach a certain level of bonding before you can formalize it with the Oath. BTW, another point on the Ideals, better explained using Shallan as the example. When Shallan takes the Second Oath of Truth (the second ideal of her order), I think she will be always assumed to be acting truthfully, thus enabling her to Soulcast without having to reveal a new truth each time. Like the Second Oath locks the bond in the position that it goes to when she speaks a truth. Finally, something I just noticed. Kaldin's Second Oath binds him to "protect those who cannot protect themselves". Well, one of the Windrunner Attributes is protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveAM Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yeah, and I feel Kaladin has been through a lot more traumatic and difficult experiences than Dalinar has. This probably forced along changes in his beliefs, etc. After Dalinar's betrayal by Sadeas, I think Dalinar will probably start manifesting as a KR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) ... Question: hasn't Dalinar acted honorable enough? I believe buying the bridgemen with his Shardblade would be worth attracting an Honorspren. His preception of honor is not exactly the same as Kaladin's IMO. For the bridgeman it would be that he just doesn't act in a distinctive honorable way. and he is just repeating the first Oath of the KR. He certainly doesn't mean them to be binding. ... How do you know that Dalinar hasn't attracted an Honorspren? These people are trained from birth to ignore spren. Syl starts messing with Kaladin in the army. He doesn't start paying attention to her until he has been a slave for a long time. When he does start noticing her, his first thoughts are about how anybody can catch a spren and he should ignore her until she goes away. Spren are pointless, annoying nuisances to most of the people of Roshar, somewhat like a cold*. I believe that there is a spren involved with Dalinar that manifests in his revulsion and thoughts that he doesn't recognize as being his own. Jasnah seems to understand the role of the spren. It will be interesting to see what happens when they get together. Cheers *supporting quote from chapter 2, p55: ... Anyone could end up drawing a spren, but you learned early that talking to one was pointless. ... Edited February 15, 2012 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jacob Santos Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I once expressed my idea that Dawnshards could be the Heralds blades because they seem to be some manifestation of the bond to the Oathpact. Now, if the KR or the other humans present at the Last Desolation picked up those blades... I don't know if Odium would accept anything other than Heralds to torture though. Following questions: Do you automatically get bound by picking up a blade? We still have no clue where those have gone. It wasn't a real theory, just a counter or rebuttal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 How do you know that Dalinar hasn't attracted an Honorspren? These people are trained from birth to ignore spren. Syl starts messing with Kaladin in the army. He doesn't start paying attention to her until he has been a slave for a long time. When he does start noticing her, his first thoughts are about how anybody can catch a spren and he should ignore her until she goes away. Spren are pointless, annoying nuisances to most of the people of Roshar, somewhat like a cold. I believe that there is a spren involved with Dalinar that manifests in his revulsion and thoughts that he doesn't recognize as being his own. Jasnah seems to understand the role of the spren. It will be interesting to see what happens when they get together. Cheers I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him). BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him). BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner. yay, somebody agrees with me about Dalinar's order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I meant exactly what you said, that he hasn't noticed his spren yet (and it certainly isn't talking to him). BTW, I think he'll probably end up as a Metalborn (8th Order, primary attribute Resolute.) I say this because his two primary personality traits are leadership (1rst order) and determination (8th) and we already have a windrunner. I don't have a strong opinion about his order. The eighth order, Kak/Resolute, does seem to fit pretty well. The following quote seems of interest in that question (Chapter 69, paperback p1203): "Because I finally know exactly what to do," Dalinar sais, standing up straight. "I was trying to be Nohadon the peacemaker. But I'm not. I'm the Blackthorn, a general and a warlord. I have no talent for backroom politicking, but I am very good at training troops. ... " To me, training troops would fit well with the secondary attribute of that order: Builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarepath Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 I really like this Nohadon theory. Especially because it relates to Dalinar's trajectory. He's constantly being told to "unite them," but it's not until the end of the book that he realizes that he can't just hope for people to band together; he's going to have to force them together. He realizes that Nohadon probably had to do something similar, and then afterwards he wrote the Way of Kings. If we follow the theory in the OP, the way that Nohadon accomplishes that was by dragging a Dawnshard to Urithiru and re-binding everybody to a new version of the magic system. What if Dalinar is meant to do the same thing? Fix the magic system by re-binding it according to rules of Honor? Maybe it's the only thing that finally gets Szeth to quit trying to assassinate him, too. Of course, where is Dalinar going to get a Dawnshard? I suggest that the original 10 shardblades in the prelude, abandoned in that rocky place, are the Dawnshards. That rocky place that could potentially be the original Shattered Plains. Dalinar is conveniently located next to the Shattered Plains. And the Parshendi do everything they can to defend and hide the depths of the Shattered Plains... possibly because there's a bunch of Dawnshards sticking in the ground there. So Dalinar, in order to unite everyone like his idol Nohadon did, will need to fight his way to the center of the Shattered Plains, get a Dawnshard, figure out where Urithiru is and how to get there, and then use it to bind everyone. I like this theory because I can see how that would work as a story, taking our character through a lot of Chekov's Guns and also leaving lots of room for great action scenes, conflict, and myth-exploration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telcontar Posted February 18, 2012 Report Share Posted February 18, 2012 Your theory includes some good ideas, at least I fully agree that Nohadon did something important. On how and what exactly, I'm with Jacob Santos, I don't believe it's possible to change a magic system. but well, this doens't help. When I reread the book I realized that someone spoke to our precious bridgeleader. which is not that big a realization. But the one spoke in capitals. Like Death from the Discworld novels. Syl had already pleaded to Kaladin to speak the words, but not in capitals and she had never spoken in capitals before. The only other time someone speaks in capitals afaik is when Kaladin is riding the storm in his dream. I'm sure capitals mean something, BS did this in purpose. When Honor spoke to Dalinar, he spoke normally. If the one speaking was indeed Jezrien, the Stormfather (which is not more plausible than other ideas) then we also have to figure out how Jezrien (or anyone except a Shard)could speak to Kaladin in that moment. Did you think about this, Elwynn? Would be glad to read your thoughts about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayonn Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 I agree that it's not possible to change the underlying rules of a magic system but don't forget that the rules the characters tell each other about how magic works are not necessarily the actual underlying rules. Look at Scadrial. The rules Wax knows about the distribution of Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are quite different from the rules in the original trilogy. Of course, we as readers have the perspective to see that the magic system has not changed, the conditions have. (Specifically, the Spiritual population genetics of the Scadrialese are different between the two eras.) What we forget is that the underlying rules of the Metallic Arts, or any of the Shardwords' magic systems, are not _the rules_ either. The real rules involve the interaction between the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical realms, and we have only the vaguest of ideas of how that works. All that to say: just because the underlying rules of magic can't change doesn't mean that Nohadon can't have changed the way the Nahel bond works as posited by the OP. (HoA spoilers:) In fact, something very similar seems to have happened on Scadrial--Harmony changed the way snapping works. So Shards, at least, can change the way that magic is acquired. If the Dawnshards are some kind of link to Honor's power - splinters, perhaps - then it seems reasonable that they could do they same thing. Also, Preservation replaced Pulsers and Sliders with Seers and Malatium mistings; apparently this change was reverted after Harmony took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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