Analysis of the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive

[Telcontar]

So, I wondered for some time, what to do first in this place, there is quite a lot topics which need discussing, theorizing or just assuming wildly.

I decided to start at the very beginning (who would have thought of that...) and here you get my analysis of the prelude to the Stormlight Archive. Note that it's not a prologue to one book but the prelude to all ten books-to-be.

It has gotten quite long. Hope you won't get bored. I know that part of what I bring up may have already been discussed in these forums. I tried not to speculate too much (that's why I speak of an analysis and not of theories) but of course that is not so simple given the lack of information concerning what happend 4500 years ago.

To do a thorough anlaysis, I, of course, can't limit myself to information coming from the prelude, so there are going to be major spoilers for tWoK.

I - The setting

There has been a battle on a plain.

As I noted before, I suppose that the plain where the battle took place is the now Shattered Plains.

It is described by Kalak as

a place of misshapen rock and stone, natural pillars rising around

The Heralds meet

in the shadow of a large rock formation, a spire rising into the sky

This description seems to fit what we see of the SP. But I must say that surely it will fit lots of other plains on Roshar as well.

A better clue, however is the following one:

[Talenel]died, holding that passage by the northern waterway

From the map showing the Alethi Warcamps, we know that there is a "mighty river" to the north of the camps.

As to why the SP are shattered, I know there is some theories out there. It could however just be erosion. In 4500 years there were a lot of highstorms. We see in the prelude that the rock had been damaged by the battle, the erosion could just have widenend and deepened the existing cracks.

The battle ended a Desolation. That Desolation was the one later called the Last Desolation, Aharietiam. It is the moment, when the Heralds departed. They then told the people, that they had won and defeated the Voidbringers, which is widely believed and taught by Vorinism. However it is not true.

Ok, I set time and place of the prelude. The great thing is, that there is so much more questions in it

II - Thunderclasts

The prelude starts with a description of a thunderclast. There is a theory out there which states that thunderclasts are what chasmfiends pupate into.

I originally agreed to that theory, I don't do anymore.

- it is a stone beast, it has granite shoulders. Chasmfiends don't. If they were made out of stone, shardblades would have cut the legs. When they pupate they grow a chrysalis which at first sight seems to be made out of stone. Because of that I initially believed that chasmfiends can in some way generate stone, making themselces stonebeasts.

The chrysalis is lifeless, if not, Adolin couldn't have cut it with his Shardblade. But when caterpillars pupate to butterflies they leave their cocoon/chrysalis behind, separated from their body, lifeless. Finally, the chrysalis' shell is later described as "like thick stone". It's just very hard carapace or something similar.

- thunderclasts rip themselves free from stone. Now, according to what I just said, the chrysalis is not stone.

- thunderclasts have red eyes, the chasmfiend who failed to kill Elhokar had green eyes. But the colour of a chasmfiends eye seems to match that of his gemheart. Not enough evidence there in favor or against any theory.

- The chasmfiend has violet blood. On the battlefield there is red, orange and violet blood. While red blood is human, orange blood is parshendi. Violet is the colour of crustacean's blood. So this just indicates that there where crustaceans present in the battle. Could be chasmfiends (after all I assume that the plain in the Prelude is the Shattered Plains where chasmfiends live). Could be chulls as well, or some other greatshell used in the battle.

- The "Historical Greatshell Picture" which is described to show a Voidbringer shows a chasmfiend from what Dalinar says. Still, Dalinar sees thunderclasts in his Nohadon vision and believes them to be Voidbringers. He certainly would have recognized chasmfiends there. It is more likely that chasmfiends were mistaken for Voidbringers.

So. thunderclasts are not chasmfiends, that is sure, I think. If they are what chasmfiends pupate into, then there is no real evidence to support it yet, except for the question what they really pupate into. (It's dragons, wouldn't that be cool?)

But what are thunderclasts? They obviously fought alongside the Voidbringers during Desolations. A theory proposed is that they are summoned by the Voidbringers. Which would somehow make sense:

- I imagine the summoning process like infusing stone with storm/void-light to get the cognitive part to come out.

- of course there is no stone formation like thunderclasts so they have to rip themselves free of the stone not needed around them.

- Midnight Essence (Dalinar's first vision) is one of the Ten Deaths. If those are deathly creatures made of one of the Essences (as has been theorized as well), then it would make perfectly sense for thunderclasts to be another of the Ten Deaths.

- Then why is there so many mentions of thunderclasts and none of the other Ten Deaths? Because on Roshar there is so damnation much stone, they are most easily to summon and damnation hard to kill.

this part edited 02-20-12 to point out that thunderclasts (1.)are not chasmfiends, (2.) are probably not what chasmfiends pupate into and (3.) propose an explanation of what they are.

III - Dustbringers

Kalak mentions Surgebinders and Dustbringers. Surgebinding is one of that magic-systems. What about Dustbringers? Dustbringers could be an order of the KR like Windrunners. To be another magic system would be strange. Why mention another magic system at the beginning and nowhere else in the book? It's the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive, but still...

Dustbringing is some kind of burning things.

Even some sections of rock smoldered, the Dustbringers had done their work well

If they can put rock on fire, it could be really useful against thunderclasts. If it's an order of the KR, we need a surge (elemental force) which can put stone on fire. Any physicists? temperature and pressure come to mind. but of course atomic manipulation should work as well.

I'm really not good at physics but I believe that the Earth core is magma (which is fluid stone in a way) because of the high pressure and temperature in the core. Again: any physicists out there?

Edited 02-20-12 to exclude "Shardwielding" from this post and change my opinion about Dustbringers.

IV - The Oathpact

The next topic is more complicated, I fear. The cycle of Desolations, the Oathpact, the place where the Heralds go between Desolations.

What do we know? Heralds will come to Roshar (the phyical aspect) to announce the coming of a Desolation. We even see it at the end, when Talenel comes to Kholinar to announce "the Desolation".

The Heralds will fight during the Desolation, if they die, they get automatically back to that place. If they survive, they have to go back. Why do they have to? Because it's part of the Oathpact.

So,where do they go. As it is not in the physical realm, it could be one of the other two. One thing made me think in the epilogue:

His muscles glistened, wet, as if he'd just swum a great distance

It speaks of Talenel who has come to announce the Desolation. Why should he be wet?

The Shardblades also are wet, when summoned from wherever they are. Maybe the Heralds come from that same place.

What is a Desolation exactly? There is no real information about that. We know that there is a cycle of them. There has been lots of them and it's been a very long time since the first Desolation. We also know that at least part of it is a battle. It could also be that a Desolation is only the battle. Nohadon tells us that the Desolation preceeding the Nohadon vision has lasted eleven (?) years. So it's the Voidbringers spawning somewhere and battling humanity. The Desolation lasts until the Voidbringers are defeated or pushed back to where they come from (the Tranquiline Halls if you believe in Vorinism).

Well, to the Oathpact now.

That's a pact between at least two parties with a content which binds both parties.

One party is the Heralds. Maybe it's Honor (the Almighty) who sends the Heralds to fullfill the Oathpact.

The other party is the enemy. Maybe Odium.

The content is subject to a lot of speculation. So, what do we know? The Oathpact implies the Cycle of Desolations.

Ishar believes that as long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.

Abandoning the Oathpact would eventually end the cycle of Desolations. One part of the Oathpact probably is, that the "enemy" is allowed to try to conquer Roshar. The Heralds are allowed to announce the Desolations to give men a chance to prepare for the Desolation. So long as the Oathpact exists, the "enemy" is bound to the cycle as well.

Kalak and Jezrien aren't sure, whether the "enemy" will stay bound if there is only one Herald left who is bound by the Oathpact.

The Heralds don't seem to know what will happen, when the Oathpact is shattered.

It's simple, we tell them (the people), that they (the people) finally won.[...] Who knows? Maybe it will turn out to be true.

That's some of the clues to the nature of the Oathpact. I believe that actually, there was never a possibility to win. The Voidbringers would only just come again and again. And the Heralds would resist again and again.

The content of the Pact would then be: Leave the humans in peace. Just every other century there will and has to be a Desolation. In return you get the Heralds for the time between the Desolations (to feed on. To build up forces.)

That would be some kind of a compromise between Honor and Odium. What Honor does is binding things. Odium hates things. So Odium gets to destroy every now and then, while Honor binds him to the Oathpact. I remeber BS once said (or maybe it was in Mistborn HoA) that there is always a balance between shards. To destroy, there has to be something that can be destroyed. That kind of idea.

So when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the "enemy" didn't consider himself bound anymore. So he could wait for the humans to turn on each other. And then the Everstorm comes.

The role of Talenel in that story.

First note the epigraph of chapter 54:

The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.

This implies that the Herals had a burden to carry. That what be to uphold the Oathpact. But if that would simply mean torture, Talenels burden would not get magnified by the departing of the other nine Heralds.

When Talenel arrives in the epilogue he says:

The Desolation has come.[...] And I have failed

In what did Talenel fail? The obvious answer would be: in preventing the Desolation.

Which brings us to my idea that the Heralds actually had something to do with when the Desolation would come.

Either they could fight it off, or they build up the enemys forces by getting tortured:

The second option would explain, why the time between the Last Desolation and the events in WoK was so long. Obviously if there is only one out of ten to feed upon, it will take longer to build up force.

The first option would explain, why Talenel thinks that he failed. In that case the long period between the Last Desolation and the Everstorm would only be due to Odium waiting for the humans to turn on each other. Also, when there is only one Herald left, it will be easier for him to win.

I realize that there is much speculation in this part of the analysis. But I hope to bring up some new points (I really don't know if all this already been brougt up)

Edited 02-20-12 to insert the duration of Desolations.

Also, as has been mentioned, some people think, there is more to Jezrien abandoning or maybe convinving the others to abandon the Oathpact.

V - The Heralds

From the prelude we know not much about them. There are ten of them. One of them is a king.

What really bothers me is the immortal part. I haven't read Elantris yet, but I don't recall any immortal beings in BSs books apart from the Shards. What about Hoid?

Is their immortality part of the Oathpact as well? In that case, wouldn't they become mortal by abandoning the pact? I don't think they do, because I believe that they will still have to play an active role in the story.

Edit: there is immortal beings in Mr.Sanderson's stories. To me it still seems that immortality comes with the use of magic in a special way.

the Divine Breath grants immortality, as long as you get a Breath per week. Which also is just using the fact that you CAN get Breaths to be immortal.

But this shows that Shards can in some way grant immortality. Let's just suppose that this is what Honor did to the Heralds.

VI - The Honorblades

Referred to as Honorblades by Mr.Sanderson himself. From the Brandonthology:

Dustin wrote: "Can a Herald's blade/equipment be um....adopted? I only ask because Dalinar seems to be lacking one and that Herald at the end did kick the bucket in his capital and he's gonna need more than armor when Szeth shows up."

BS: Someone who is not himself or herself a Herald can indeed use one of the Honorblades.

More powerful than Shardblades. Don't function in the same way, they only disappear when the bearer goes back to the place where he goes between Desolations. But then, maybe they only disappear from the physical realm and just change worlds with its bearer. They come from Honor and were given to the Heralds. If they have to leave them when abandoning the Oathpact, I suppose they were given to fulfill the Oathpact.

I also had the idea that the blades were what bound the Heralds.

The other things we know to bind people are the Dawnshards:

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

Jasnah's notes, chapter 36

The Dawnshards seem to be things like the Oath Rod in the WoT. The Dawnshards could also bind voidish creatures, so maybe that's what bound the "enemy" in the first place.

Again, mostly speculation on my part.

One question remains. Where are they now? The nine most powerful objects on Roshar. They must have been discovered. And while the Heralds were seen as Gods, their blades must play an interesting role as well. From the quote above we know that they can be used by anyone. I don't believe they have been left on the Shattered Plains after the Heralds left.

A simple idea would be that the KR took them to Urithiru.

Another, stranger one would be that the Parshendi, who actually were allies during Desolations stayed on the SP to guard the Honorblades for the eventuality that the Heralds would come back. (And they try to find the most honorable fighters in the Alethi army to give them Honorblades. Of course there is only one, maybe two, counting

Adolin who just followed the Codes because of his father until the end of WoK.)

Which really is hard speculation

Yep, that was it. I'm only halfway through my second read of WoK so maybe there will be other clues until I finish it. Edits are possible.

First edit: 02-20-12: structuring the post, correcting some typos. Changed my mind about thunderclasts. Excluded Shardwielding. Added a funny theory about Honorblades.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Telcontar

[Inevitable]

The Heralds.

From the prelude we know not much about them. There are ten of them. One of them is a king.

What really bothers me is the immortal part. I haven't read Elantris yet, but I don't recall any immortal beings in BSs books apart from the Shards. What about Hoid?

Is their immortality part of the Oathpact as well? In that case, wouldn't they become mortal by abandoning the pact? I don't think they do, because I believe that they will still have to play an active role in the story.

The whole point of the Lord Ruler and the Final Empire was that he was immortal.

I also doubt this idea that Thunderclasts are pupated Chasmfiends.

It seems unlikely that they are, and have been, successfully hunted with 100% efficiency by the Parshendi.

Dustbringers seem an interesting one. The name itself doesn't seem to have any connection with heat. Perhaps it's a form of Soulcasting, one which includes the generation of a large amount of heat.

[dj26792]

Ok. Lots to talk about, not sure I have time at the moment, but I'll start anyway.

There have been immortals of some form or another in all of Brandon's (cosmere) books, Elantrians could heal themselves of anything and continue to live as long as they chose, Returned so long as they could find breaths would live on, and any awakener who reached the 5th hightening becomes functionally immortal, Mistborn, compounding Atium, although rare makes immortality possible and the Kandra are also immortal.

The shardblades will cut through anything that isnt alive, so cutting through the shell of the pupating chasmfiend is understandable, after its dead the sword will begin to cut through rather than just killing. However I do like your argument, and I was wondering if you had any more reasoning behind the chrysalis being made out of stone?

We know that soulcasting is a subset of surgebinding, and that surgebinding covers all the magic of the radiants. The current theory (as far as I'm aware) is that the Dustbringers are an order of Radiants. We have no idea what surges they bind, or even what number they are in that regard, your guess is as good as mine, or better actually since I haven't actually made one in regards to this issue... (wow, loading up on the pretention here)

Thats an interesting spin on the Oathpact, I still haven't read a theory on the Oathpact I like, but yours comes awful close.

Ok, I think I'm done for now

[Guest Jacob Santos]

The Thunderclast is described as skeletal with long limbs, they also have hands. Clasmfiends are more like crabs it seems like.

I still do not believe that the parshendi are the voidbringers nor do I believe they are the true enemy. If anyone is of Odium it is the current human population of Roshar, since the parshendi seem more honorable than most humans on that planet.

It is my believe that the KR and Shardblades and Dawnshards come from the same places and go to the same place. In a sense, it is reasonable to believe that the concept of Hell exists or Hades. A spiritual realm does exist and it would make sense that the KR and shards come and go to that place.

Of course, they may also come from another planet that appears to be much like hell (Stargate SG1). Regardless there is an aspect of the bond that links the shardblades to a realm (might even be cognitive realm. It is definitely not the physical realm (unless another planet and simply teleporting the immortals and blades (very unlikely).

The Oathpact was broken because the KR were broken. None of them could stomach going back to the pain and torment. My interpretation of why they must suffer is the pain and suffering they inflict on others. My evidence, I point to Szeth Son-Son. He may very well be going insane and he is, but I believe that when he hears the cries and shouts of those he killed, he really is hearing their screams.

The burden for the KR is bearing the weight of murdering or killing during war. They have so much power and they use it to destroy as only they can. I believe that even if they were to die, forever, there would be no peace for them and given their long lives, most likely they know how to prevent death from coming.

Well, I doubt any theory of mine holds any weight. I am excited that Book 2 may well be within a year. I believe that some answers may come in the second book. It really depends on how much Brandon is going to give away. He has to give away some. That is the nature of these things. You answer some questions and introduce new questions in the process until the final book where you reveal the big answers and leave several small ones unanswered for your readers to conclude for themselves.

[Dros]

Jacob,

The Oathpact was broken because the KR were broken.

You mean the Heralds not the Knights Radiant, I believe.

I agree with you about the Parshendi not being the Voidbringers. It just doesn't seem to be the way BS would go. Just...too easy.

And Telcontar,

That bit about the Shardblades...I really had forgotten about the fact that they must be "called" and appear wet in the bearer's hand and the fact that Taln looks as if he has swam a great distance when he appears. Isn't Shadesmar all water where there is land in the physical realm? And isn't it treated as very dangerous to fall into the waters?

[Telcontar]

Thanks for your replies!

@ Inevitable

I'm aware that the thunderclasts/chasmfiend-theory is quite unpopular. And as I said, I agree that there is the problem of where thunderclasts are now. But there is also so much similarities, so I tried to just point out those.

and the whole point of The Lord Ruler, was that he actually was NOT immortal but just cery clever in using both Allomancy and Feruchemy. and IIRC he used Hemalurgy too (his bracelets spiked through his arm?).

@dj

the examples you bring for immortal beings are all of immortality thanks to the use of magic. But if it might very well be, that I'm wrong about that since I haven't read Elantris yet and it's been a while since I read Mistborn.

Of course that leads to the question, if the Heralds themselves are immortal thanks to some use of magic. They're obviously linked to Honor in some way.

as to the cutting of the chrysalis. I understood that the pupating chasmfiend is very alive in that process. Adolin first cuts the chrysalis to be able to reach the chasmfiend. He then kills it before he is able to cut his flesh to get out the gemheart. The point I tried to make is that chasmfiends are able, in some way to generate stone. Or at least some very hard substance (without Shardblades the process of getting out the gemheart takes a while).

if Surgebinding covers all the magic of the KR, I didn't get that before. OK, reading the Ars Arcanum part about lashings helps In that case, I have to reconsider what I said about Surgebinders, Dustbringers and Shardwielders.

@Jacob

I also don't believe in the Parshendi being the Voidbringers. However, my impression is not about they being more honorabe than humans. But I intend to release some thougts about that in a theory in the next few days.

Your thoughts about the Heralds (KR in your post) and the place they go between Desolations: I don't think they suffer like Szeth. Szeth doesn't stand the thought of killing people. the Heralds seem to be tortured. I also think in their point of view, the use of their power is more to protect people during Desolations ("I will protect those who cannot protect themselves") like the KR do. Their burden is more that of having to go back and whatever they have to do there. And if it's really only to get tortured, that would be a great burden. That doesn't explain why Talenel then carries the burden of all ten Heralds.

If it's to get tortured, then you really need a LOT, and I mean a LOT! of honor to accept being bound by the Oathpact in order to prevent the "enemy" to come more often than during Desolations. But that would be what they do. Protect humans by sacrificing themselves. The Heralds chose their burden themselves. Maybe torture had not always been what is waiting on the otherside (that place they go between Desolations) but Odium corrupted it more and more.

And, finally: @Droz

I had also thought about Shadesmar. I only have the paperback edition of WoK which doesn't include the maps of Roshar in the time of the Silver Kingdoms or the map of Shadesmar. I only saw them some days ago and I am not sure yet what to make of them.

If by changing realm, you stay in the same spot on Roshar or in Shadesmar, it would be interesting to see if Shardblades are wet when summoned on a ship.

What made me not bring up the idea of Shadesmar is the description we get of it when Shallan goes there. The otherside of Kharbranth would be water in Shadesmar. But there is all those spheres instead. "An endless dark sea. Ecept it wasn't wet. It was made of the small beads, an entire ocean of tiny glass spheres" [another topic. but Gavilar's black sphere seems to match the description of those spheres. damnation, now I have thoughts about that sphere as well]

This site already pleases me a lot...

[Thorontir]

That doesn't explain why Talenel then carries the burden of all ten Heralds.

If it's to get tortured, then you really need a LOT, and I mean a LOT! of honor to accept being bound by the Oathpact in order to prevent the "enemy" to come more often than during Desolations. But that would be what they do. Protect humans by sacrificing themselves. The Heralds chose their burden themselves. Maybe torture had not always been what is waiting on the otherside (that place they go between Desolations) but Odium corrupted it more and more.

[Emphasis mine, and as usual, please forgive any mistakes in the text]

About the burden, I think you have answered yourself. You said that there was a need for a lot of honor to accept the tortures (If that is the burden they carry) for the safety of humanity. What if the part of carrying the burden of all ten Heralds is simply suffering the tortures that would be "shared" when there were the ten of them? Just a matter of scale, if you understand me... If the tortures were designed to mantain the Heralds sane while making them suffering terribly, giving all ten "dosis" of suffering to the same Herald could end with a very crazy person...

Last part doesn't seems to happen, since at the end of WoK, he seems pretty sane... (Well, for the few words he says)

[CrazyRioter]

he seemed kinda out of it to me, but it's hard to make a conclusive observation of the dude's sanity from all of 20 words.

[Dros]

Sanderson did say the Stormlight Archive was about ten angelic beings driven insane by what they have borne for humanity. He didn't say how that manifested, but the small clips we've seen of the Heralds and the clues many think point to the Heralds doesn't paint a picture of perfect mental health.

[Zas678]

I'm not sure about the sanity, but it could explain why this Desolation took so long to come.

How 'bout this for the Oathpact- Odium would withhold his hand from the affairs of the world, instead punishing the Heralds the amount of pain he would inflict on the world (Or simply x amount of torturing- it doesn't have to be equivalent to what he would do for the world). When that has been met, then the Heralds return to the Earth, and Odium is free to affect the world, ending up in Desolations, until the Heralds return to Him.

In exchange for Odium's limited interference, Honor can't influence the world except through information. No Vin-like-fuelling, no moving the planet, or anything like that. Instead, he trusts in the Heralds (and later the Radiants and Ardents) to act correctly, and gives them visions from time to time.

Why would Honor want to do this? Because it protects the people, plus it gives them some opposition, which (as we see know) is a good thing. Plus he probably believes that the people will do the right thing. Why would the Heralds do it? They want to help protect the land, plus they get to live forever. Why would Odium do it? Because he's a little more cynical about the human race than Honor is. He thinks that the Heralds will eventually break (as they do), and then, he's free to go about laying waste to people. Plus the fact that Honor is now dead. Maybe that was in the deal- that if the deal was broken, the Shard who broke his promise would die. Honor may have even made the clause, thinking that Odium wouldn't be able to handle it.

[Smidge]

I'm aware that the thunderclasts/chasmfiend-theory is quite unpopular.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I thought the reason that theory is 'unpopular' is because Brandon has said that thunderclasts and chasmfiends aren't the same creature... They could be some other sort of greatshell or giant monsters with gemhearts though. After all there are supposed to be other giant creatures with gemhearts around Roshar, though we've only heard of a few others so far. Wouldn't be surprising if the other giant creatures had the same coloured blood, either.

I'll be sorely disappointed if there aren't some sort of stone creature or greatshell among the voidbringers/baddies, otherwise what's the point of shardblades? They're overkill for killing people, and their ability to cut shell considering Roshar's shelled creature theme seems like it could be a hint at their purpose.

[Zas678]

I'm trying to remember a quote about pupating, where Brandon denies it, but I don't remember if it is from Parshendi to Chasmfiend or from Chasmfiend to Thundercast.

EDIT- Or if it's my mind making up things I think should be there.

[CrazyRioter]

I believe Brandon said that "dead parshmen do not become chasmfiends."

[Thor]

*snip*

and the whole point of The Lord Ruler, was that he actually was NOT immortal but just cery clever in using both Allomancy and Feruchemy. and IIRC he used Hemalurgy too (his bracelets spiked through his arm?).

The Hemalurgy part is correct, though we don't know what power the bracers gave (you can probably find speculation by doing a search...) Additionally, TLR is effectively immortal. While his lifespan was limited with Atium compounding, he could have probably lasted for over a million years, which, at 10000 times the average lifespan, is pretty much immortality.

This site already pleases me a lot...

It is quite awesome, isn't it.

[Telcontar]

I'm not sure about the sanity, but it could explain why this Desolation took so long to come.

How 'bout this for the Oathpact- Odium would withhold his hand from the affairs of the world, instead punishing the Heralds the amount of pain he would inflict on the world (Or simply x amount of torturing- it doesn't have to be equivalent to what he would do for the world). When that has been met, then the Heralds return to the Earth, and Odium is free to affect the world, ending up in Desolations, until the Heralds return to Him.

In exchange for Odium's limited interference, Honor can't influence the world except through information. No Vin-like-fuelling, no moving the planet, or anything like that. Instead, he trusts in the Heralds (and later the Radiants and Ardents) to act correctly, and gives them visions from time to time.

Why would Honor want to do this? Because it protects the people, plus it gives them some opposition, which (as we see know) is a good thing. Plus he probably believes that the people will do the right thing. Why would the Heralds do it? They want to help protect the land, plus they get to live forever. Why would Odium do it? Because he's a little more cynical about the human race than Honor is. He thinks that the Heralds will eventually break (as they do), and then, he's free to go about laying waste to people. Plus the fact that Honor is now dead. Maybe that was in the deal- that if the deal was broken, the Shard who broke his promise would die. Honor may have even made the clause, thinking that Odium wouldn't be able to handle it.

I see you got my idea

Some additional thoughts:

Jezrien said, that the Heralds chose that burden willingly. I suppose Honor tried to find volonteers who would prove to be the ten most honorable people existing (of course only if they knew before of the torture to come)

Why did Honor originally agree to such a thing? If we're right about the Oathpact, there doesn't seem to be a chance of getting the upperhand against Odium. He only pushes back the moment of the True Desolation.

Odium is the most dangerous of the Shards, I suppose he is quite powerful as well in comparison to other Shards.

The coppermind wiki tells me that Honor's intent is to uphold agreements, to bind things. (like Syl binds things to annoy Kaladin at the beginning of the book) Odium's intent would be to hate things. To destroy them, to bring desolation to the world. (Correct me if I get his intent wrong, please)

Maybe all Honor could really do was to bind Odium by some sort of pact (the Oathpact). Honor's real power would be the humans who are honorable. In the time before the Last Desolation, appearently humans were much more honorable then they are now. As they lose honor, Honor loses power. (Has anybody read "Small Gods" from Terry Pratchett? )

[Dros]

Why did Honor originally agree to such a thing?

This has been discussed before on here. I keep trying to figure out why he would accept such a seriously flawed deal. Obviously we don't know everything about it or how the other side was bound, but sending your top guys to get tortured for a millenia or two doesn't seem like a very good deal.

Having said that, if Odium is really as strong as people are thinking at the moment...well, I guess you try to bind him in any way you can. Ten guys get tortured for a very long time to at least give your side a fighting chance vs. the planet gets wiped from existence. Hard to argue if those are the choices.

[hoser]

Waaaa-Hey! Great post! Upvoted! So many ideas. I'll just try to add a few thoughts. I wonder whether specific ideas might want their own threads.

The Blades.

More powerful than Shardblades. Don't function in the same way, they only disappear when the bearer goes back to the place where he goes between Desolations. But then, maybe they only disappear from the physical realm and just change worlds with its bearer. They come from Honor and were given to the Heralds. If they have to leave them when abandoning the Oathpact, I suppose they were given to fulfill the Oathpact.

I also had the idea that the blades were what bound the Heralds.

The other things we know to bind people are the Dawnshards:

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” Jasnah's notes, chapter 36

The Dawnshards seem to be things like the Oath Rod in the WoT. The Dawnshards could also bind voidish creatures, so maybe that's what bound the "enemy" in the first place.

Again, mostly speculation on my part.

One question remains. Where are they now? The nine most powerful objects on Roshar. They must have been discovered. And while the Herals where seen as Gods, their blades must play an interesting role as well. A simple idea would be that the KR took them to Urithiru.

I struggle with the idea that Dawnshards=Heraldblades.

Cosmere spoiler follows: The two theories that I've seen about Dawnshards are that they are the Shards of Adonalsium or collectively the Shardblades and Shardplate of the disappeared Knights Radiant. I lean to the former, and interpret the back cover to refer to the Shards of Honor and Cultivation. I believe that the bearers of Honor (Tanavast) and Cultivation have been killed, but the Shards themselves still exist.

Heraldblades have undescribed powers, but are supposedly greater than Shardblades. One possibility is that they convey the powers of a Radiant of a particular order, in which case I wonder about the blade that Szeth carries and the source of his Windrunner abilities. The blade does turn his eyes blue, the windrunner color. Is he carrying Jezrien's Heraldblade? I agree that they are tied to the Oathpact, as abandoning the blades seems to be essential in the Heralds truancy.

The Heralds.

From the prelude we know not much about them. There are ten of them. One of them is a king.

We see the prelude situation from Kalak's point of view. Jezrien convinces him to walk away, abandoning his blade. I believe that there is more to this scene than Kalak knows. What is Jezrien up to? The desolation has been unusually difficult, but miraculously, only one death. Have the heralds met and decided to quit? Or did Jezrien meet each of them as they returned to the rendez-vous, and convince them not to continue? Did Odium try to avoid killing the heralds, so they could quit? Did Jezrien have an understanding with Taln about being the only one to die? Has Jezrien decided that the Oathpact/Desolation cycle is not the best way to fight Odium? Did he continue the fight without his sword? Could Jezrien be the voice and face in the storms that Kaladin experiences?

- it is a stone beast, it has granite shoulders. Chasmfiends don't. If they were out of stone, shardblades would have cut the legs. But when they pupate, they spin a chrysalis which is made of stone. Adolin is able to cut the chrysalis with his shardblade, so it has to be made of stone. Also, chasmfiends have gemhearts which are minerals. So, if chasmfiends are able to spin a stone chrysalis, shouldn't they be able to grow a stone-skin when they pupate? And finally, thunderclasts rip themselves free from stone.

The thing I love about chasmfiend pupates into thunderclast is that it answers the question: what do Chasmfiends become? Butterflies pupate into a form that can reproduce. How do chasmfiends reproduce? I see no mention of chasmfiend eggs. Another possibility for thunderclasts (which seem to be of Odium) is that there is one of the ten Unmade (fools?) who inspires thunderclasts, like Re-Shephir (operating from memory) inspires Midnight Essences.

I deeply mistrust the ideas that thunderclasts come from chasmfiends and that Parshendi are voidbringers because this is only book one and they seem too obvious. I think Brandon has more surprises in store on these issues.

Anyway, on with your regularly scheduled speculation ...

EDITED: hide cosmere spoiler, clarify syntax

Edited February 8, 2012 by hoser

[name_here]

I always figured Honor went for the Oathpact because Odium is "The most terrible and dangerous of all the Shards." and Honor had to make some kind of deal or end up like Devotion and Domination.

It's worth noting that Honor has been dead for millennia but Roshar is not being trashed by Odium. I mean, we've seen what happens when a Shard goes all out on a planet in Mistborn. The Highstorms aren't remotely in the same league. Plus I feel like Roshar has always had Highstorms, and definitely for long enough that people have no recollection whatsoever of a time when they didn't exist.

So I figure there was a non-interference deal that cut both ways. While all the honorblades are in the possession of the Heralds, Odium couldn't kill Honor. While at least one honorblade is in the possession of a Herald, Odium can't go nuts on Roshar.

Edited February 8, 2012 by name_here

[Zas678]

Honor actually hasn't been dead for a Millenia. When he speaks to Dalinar, he says that he must "Restore the Knight Radiants", which seems to mean that they had already fallen when Honor "recorded" his messages.

[Joe ST]

Honor actually hasn't been dead for a Millenia. When he speaks to Dalinar, he says that he must "Restore the Knight Radiants", which seems to mean that they had already fallen when Honor "recorded" his messages.

unless the KR get rebuilt between (or for) each Desolation because of that message.

[name_here]

The Recreance was millenia ago unless I'm terribly confused on the timeline.

[Telcontar]

I wonder whether specific ideas might want their own threads.

Actually I agree. But I'm new here, I still haven't figured out exactly how these forums work.

And I tried to do a different approach. Not having built a theory and try to prove those by explaining, quoting etc but to take one specific part and see what I can get out of it. I'm thinking about doing so with Dalinar's viewings, but that wouldn't be in the near future

One advantage of that approach could be to stumble upon sentences which have gone unnoticed before.

Anyway, I shouldn't discuss about the way one is working

And if I had done a little more research before posting this, I could have avoided to bring up the chasmfiend/thunderclast-topic again As far as I see it, the only point which had not been discussed over and over before was that chasmfiends actually create(spin) stone in some way.

But back to topic

What is Jezrien up to? The desolation has been unusually difficult, but miraculously, only one death. Have the heralds met and decided to quit? Or did Jezrien meet each of them as they returned to the rendez-vous, and convince them not to continue?

I really don't believe that abandoning the Oathpact was Jezrien's idea. Maybe he brought it up first. But I think they decided together, at least eight of them, to leave. Jezrien waited for Kalak to see if he had died. So, if Kalak had died, the others would still have abandoned the Oathpact, leaving Kalak and Talenel to go back on the otherside. They had already left their swords, after all. I believe that leaving the sword was the final act for every one of them. They leave their sword, they leave the Oathpact.

If Jezrien had first convinced one other to leave the sword, the second would have arrived, seeing only one sword in the circle-to-be.

And: if you're as honorable as the Heralds are/were, then deciding together to leave one of them to Odium would be a much easier decision IMO. Leaving alone would feel too much to betray the others.

[hoser]

Actually I agree. But I'm new here, I still haven't figured out exactly how these forums work.

Hey, you got many responses in a few days. What you're doing is meaningful. Good work!

I really don't believe that abandoning the Oathpact was Jezrien's idea. Maybe he brought it up first. ...

And: if you're as honorable as the Heralds are/were, then deciding together to leave one of them to Odium would be a much easier decision IMO. Leaving alone would feel too much to betray the others.

I'm not sure about the last part. Abandoning one, en masse, could seem less honorable than being the only one to slink off. But that is not my real point. I'm convinced that there is more to that scene than Kalak knows. What exactly is going on, I don't know. But I feel strongly that there are wheels turning somewhere. I also think that the king of the heralds has more to give. All these links between Jezrien and storms are going to be fleshed out before the end also.

Anyway, thanks for a very stimulating post. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts.

[Captain.Kaulu]

As Shardwielding is mentioned on the back of tWoK, I suppose Shardwielding is Soulcasting without a Soulcaster, as this is the only other Magic we actually see in the book.

If "shardwielding" is indeed a distinct type of magic, I would posit that it is the name for what Szeth does. We have been told he's not truly Surgebinding in the normal Nahel Bond method, but is doing "something different."

[Telcontar]

If "shardwielding" is indeed a distinct type of magic, I would posit that it is the name for what Szeth does. We have been told he's not truly Surgebinding in the normal Nahel Bond method, but is doing "something different."

My assumption is unlikely at least because Soulcasting is much more likely to be Transformation and thus being a type of Surgebinding (I slowly gather knowledge around other threads, yes )

Then, as you say, if Shardwielding is a distinct type of magic, I would first wonder if it's another magic type like Surgebinding. Or if it's a sub-category to one of these.

Surgebinding is linked to Honor. If I understood conclusions in this forum right, then you gain abilities by bonding to an Honorspren. Which is attracted to you because you act honorable (Kaladin by protecting young recruits and bribing the surgeons to care for his men). So, if you stop acting honorable, would the bond uphold? (what is the opposite of honorable, by the way?) Let's say it does.

In that case Szeth wouldn't get his abilities by a bond with an Honorspren. Either because he never acted honorable in the first place or because he stopped acting honorable by killing everything simply because his master desires it.

But he still has his powers. Which would point to a conclusion that what he does is not Surgebinding but something different. What that might be, is another question.

(Related questions would be: how did Szeth get his powers? Did he learn the Lashings by someone? His expertise in that area seems to point that way? so, do Shin still possess knowledge of Surgebinding and whatever that is?)