Atium Alloys

[Aether]

I think a better one for zinc/brass, going by your idea of taking the original metal and adding a temporal aspect, might be speeding and slowing someone else's perception of time. That way it would remain true to the nature of the metals, and  just change the effect to be more time-oriented.

 

​And for the whole aluminum/duralumin problem, the metals effects don't really fit together perfectly anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. 

 

(I still don't really want to let go of the mental/temporal thing, since it was printed on the fancy table of metals that was printed a few years back. It's a lot easier to think up new metals your way though.)

 

I just had kind of a weird idea, someone's probably thought of it before, but working under the rules for different metal/alloy pairs, shouldn't all Atium alloys be external? The normal pushing - pulling relationship doesn't seem to apply, (malatium already broke that) but as Atium is classified as an external metal, all 16 of its alloys should be as well. If that were true it would narrow down the possibilities a fair bit. 

I suggest labelling Atium and all its alloys as external and Lerasium and all its alloys internal. Or something.

 

Also, WoB have hinted at the existence of a Harmony related metal. I believe "Harmonium" might f**k this up.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Aether

[Moogle]

Also, WoB have hinted at the existence of a Harmony related metal. I believe "Harmonium" might f**k this up.

 

Also of interest: the notion of there being multiple atium-lerasium alloys. An alloy with mostly lerasium would make you a Seer, an alloy with mostly atium would have temporal effects related to lerasium, perhaps? Which one of these would be Harmony's, if any?

[Aonar]

I'm personally of the opinion that true "Harmonium" (or a 50/50 Aitum/Lerasium alloy) if it exists is book wouldn't do anything. When Vin takes up Preservation's power, she instinctively counters Ruin's power, because they were (near) equal opposites. Sazed, having both powers seems to have developed a rather strong policy of non-intervention, preferring to work through hemalurgically influenced servants. So with the two powers in balance within the same metal it likely would generate pointless contradictory effects upon burning, as the two powers would seek to counter each other. Having partial Lerasium/Atium alloys do things like create Seers seems fine though. 

[Oudeis]

I'm personally of the opinion that true "Harmonium" (or a 50/50 Aitum/Lerasium alloy) if it exists is book wouldn't do anything. When Vin takes up Preservation's power, she instinctively counters Ruin's power, because they were (near) equal opposites. Sazed, having both powers seems to have developed a rather strong policy of non-intervention, preferring to work through hemalurgically influenced servants. So with the two powers in balance within the same metal it likely would generate pointless contradictory effects upon burning, as the two powers would seek to counter each other.

 

Perhaps some force of stability? Like immunity to Investiture while you burn it? Based on the idea that if you've got the power of one Shard pushing you one way and another pulling equally strong in direct opposition, perhaps there's a side-effect that simply lets your survive the pressure. If so, if you are granted nothing more than the ability to survive being ripped apart by deific forces, maybe something like a Lashing or emotional allomancy would just shrug right off you. Something like an Awakened rope strangling you would likely still work, obviously.

[Aonar]

I didn't even think of that one, and it should work given what we know about how investiture interferes with other investitures. It would probably burn away really quickly, but it could still be useful. 

[Swimmingly]

Perhaps some force of stability? Like immunity to Investiture while you burn it? Based on the idea that if you've got the power of one Shard pushing you one way and another pulling equally strong in direct opposition, perhaps there's a side-effect that simply lets your survive the pressure. If so, if you are granted nothing more than the ability to survive being ripped apart by deific forces, maybe something like a Lashing or emotional allomancy would just shrug right off you. Something like an Awakened rope strangling you would likely still work, obviously.

Perhaps it would actually disrupt any investure you touch/get near, so that the Breaths in a rope would get "shredded", scattered into sprays of prismatic light. Or maybe it would mess with the Commands, so that the Breaths would lose their animation.

[Oudeis]

Perhaps it would actually disrupt any investure you touch/get near, so that the Breaths in a rope would get "shredded", scattered into sprays of prismatic light. Or maybe it would mess with the Commands, so that the Breaths would lose their animation.

 

I could see that; it seems overpowered, but then again this isn't exactly a trick you can repeat often. What would it do if you touch a Radiant full of Stormlight? A Mistborn burning metals? An Elantrian or a Dakhor?

[Aether]

It might seem overpowered, but remember that Atium (and presumably also Lerasium) burns really quickly - and is besides very hard to find. People would have to be really restrictive with its use, so it wouldn't really unbalance anything.

[Sevi]

I don't think this is right. Harmonium would cause the net amount of investiture to be negative?
It's both Preservation and Harmony - making something stable and unchanging would be of Preservation only. My strong bet on Harmonium would be some power of creation. For the sake of the question, I'd like to analize what we know about Harmony for sure.

 

First of all, Harmony is the most powerful of Shards, or at least equally powerful to Odium. Not only he actually holds two shards, because that doesn't neccesairly give him more actual power, which is understandable to those familiar with Shardic theory (talking about the global scale, not Cosmeric scale). He is powerful because of his sentinence - as the only Shard known to us he's not blinded by any intent.

He is unique among other Shards because of the sentinent mind behind the power he wields.

That would make me believe that his metal is different from the others. It's power would not be raw, I think, it would be much more sophisticated. 

 

Second thing is that Harmony is, in fact, a scientist. As a Shard, I guess his power would be focused more on development, open-mindedness and understanding. 

 

So I think of Harmonium as being able to give one knowledge, perhaps. Or some greater mindfulness. Something along the lines of an insta-Zen metal.

 

And for Harmonium being a metalmind, I'm pretty convinced it would act as an universal metalmind of increased capacity. Here, have this bead, you can store anything you want in here. Perhaps, it would even act as a shared metalmind, allowing every Feruchemist to store inside.

[Oudeis]

I don't think this is right. Harmonium would cause the net amount of investiture to be negative?

It's both Preservation and Harmony - making something stable and unchanging would be of Preservation only. My strong bet on Harmonium would be some power of creation. For the sake of the question, I'd like to analize what we know about Harmony for sure.

 

First of all, Harmony is the most powerful of Shards, or at least equally powerful to Odium. Not only he actually holds two shards, because that doesn't neccesairly give him more actual power, which is understandable to those familiar with Shardic theory (talking about the global scale, not Cosmeric scale). He is powerful because of his sentinence - as the only Shard known to us he's not blinded by any intent.

He is unique among other Shards because of the sentinent mind behind the power he wields.

 

I'm sure I can find them sometime when I'm not running out the door, but I believe we have WoB that this is not the case? That in fact he DOES have both Intents, he is simply balanced between the two, feeling equal desire to protect and to destroy.

 

Also, I see where you're going with the "stasis is more Preservation than Ruin" and while in principle I agree with you, our in-world evidence suggests otherwise. When the two forces are side-by-side, stasis is what happens. Way back before they made people, there was a world neither could affect. Ruin couldn't destroy, things just went along fine for however long. That was the definition of Preservation. Inertia was on Preservation's side, so with his power matching Ruin's perfectly, inertia gave the tie to Preservation. So I don't think it's wholly outside of possibility that equal atium and lerasium (which may or may not be the same thing as sazium) might have an effect that looks like Preservation.

[Sevi]

I'm sure I can find them sometime when I'm not running out the door, but I believe we have WoB that this is not the case? That in fact he DOES have both Intents, he is simply balanced between the two, feeling equal desire to protect and to destroy.

 

WoB here is strongly unbalanced, as Brandon strongly suggests that Sazed is holding two different Shards, but he still prefers to think of them "as one". But I do remember a few of his quotes where he allows to think of Sazed as having more sentinence than a regular Shard holder.

 

Remember what every other Shard manifests when they communicate with humanity...

Ruin was capable of speaking, but absolutely blinded with his Intent - "arr, you will all die from my hand".

Preservation's trials of communication were very vague and "shy", as every change he would cause would be against his Intent, so he was kind of like an introvertic kid.

The Elantris shard (can't call the name from memory) was only vaguely able to communicate with Raoden, if it ever did, in the pool of water being it's own body. I can be wrong on this though, don't have the book right now.

Honor was able to communicate with Delinar clearly, but his Intent was clearly behind this, with Dalinar being one of the most honorable people to speak to, and the fact of communication itself guided by Honor's

sense of his "oath" to humanity being broken by getting pwnd by Odium.

As for Odium, I guess he is as human as Harmony, but for a completely different reason. Harmony was able to keep his freedom because of the both Intends from Ruin and Preservation nullifying each other. Odium was able to keep sentinence, because he already was a loathful man - let's say that his "human Intend" matched the Intend of the Shard perfectly.

 

So far, we've only seen Harmony being able to speak to humans as clearly and cleverly as he did. So I guess it's safe to assume that he's not blinded by any Intent - he's as witty and smart as he always was.

 

So I don't think it's wholly outside of possibility that equal atium and lerasium (which may or may not be the same thing as sazium) might have an effect that looks like Preservation.

I don't understand your reasoning, could you extend this statement? Because for now, I'm dazed. So Preservation's power is creating (investiture gain), while Harmony's power would preserve (investiture nullifying)?

[Oudeis]

 

Remember what every other Shard manifests when they communicate with humanity...

 

 

I don't understand your reasoning, could you extend this statement? Because for now, I'm dazed. So Preservation's power is creating (investiture gain), while Harmony's power would preserve (investiture nullifying)?

 

Um... well the Shard on Sel (Devotion) was dead at the time, which may have prevented ease of communication. Preservation couldn't speak, not because he was introverted, but because he had sacrificed his mind to create the prison that trapped Ruin. Honor was also dead. Endowment spoke to Lightsong just fine. Ruin was able to talk to Spook and keep the "oh hey let's kill him" talk to a minimum.

 

If you don't mind some constructive criticism, you seem to be looking at events in the book and deciding you know why it was portrayed that way. If you continue stating opinions like these as facts, I think you will find that you'll confuse people who come here looking for information.

 

To clarify what I meant by my defense of sazium: I understand what you're saying. Preservation's Intent is stasis, and Ruin's Intent is destruction. Logically, a combination of these forces (such as combining lerasium and atium) would give you something in between... presumably still destruction, just slower. I would agree with you, except we have precedent.

 

The precedent was the interaction between Preservation and Ruin before they made their agreement. Before they worked together to create humans, before Leras gave them more of his own power than Ati did of his, it was simply the force of Preservation and Ruin. Logically, you are totally right. This should have been a slow death. It wasn't; nothing changed. Their powers matched, and neither could change anything, which incongruously is exactly what Preservation should have wanted. So, it looks like when the force for stability utterly matches the force for destruction, things just stay however they were. When it was a barren wasteland without change, it stayed a barren wasteland. By the end of the third book, when the world was doomed, it kept being doomed.

 

So that's our precedent. I think that's what a combination of lerasium and atium would do. Two forces would rage inside you, holding each other in perfect balance, but with so much pressure that no typical amount of Investiture could survive contact.

[Sevi]

Sorry for the manner, didn't mean to be like this. I'm not speaking natively, I have a bit of problem about seeing how what I write will sound to others. I apologize for sounding the wrong way - I didn't mean to be arrogant. You people have more knowledge on the topic than I do

 

 

And argh, you kinda got me about what I said about Shards. I didn't realize Devotion was dead at the time. What I had on mind was that Sazed was kind of the only one who is not bound by an Intend, as he keeps his intervention in reason. Like, he is not "obliged" to do anything like other Shards, but keeps his wit and remains a free willed, aware human being. And thank you on correcting me on a few of those things, I blamed Preservation's lack of initiative more on a "non-intervention" policy tied to his Intend than on what it really was. Guess i got carried away in theories.

 

As for the latter, I tend to think of Sazedium as, well, Sazedium - being more of Harmony than of Preservation and Ruin. I mean, if Harmony keeps the two Shards at bay, would they still fight within someone burning the Atium/Lerasium alloy?

And from what I remember, burning two metals at the same time is not the same as burning an alloy of both. I guess burning both at the same time would work as you said, but burning the alloy of both would give you the Harmony-related effect.

 

Though, you might be just right - the two could just, kinda, refuse to be alloyed with each other.

Or, maybe, refuse to be alloyed before Harmony's Ascension, and would be able to be combined with each as Harmonium after it. It sounds nice, symbolizing the fight between Shards and the end Harmony put to it.

Not sure if we have any WoB on this, so I might be wrong about this tho.

[Scriptorian]

I don't think this is right. Harmonium would cause the net amount of investiture to be negative?

It's both Preservation and Harmony - making something stable and unchanging would be of Preservation only. My strong bet on Harmonium would be some power of creation. For the sake of the question, I'd like to analize what we know about Harmony for sure.

 

First of all, Harmony is the most powerful of Shards, or at least equally powerful to Odium. Not only he actually holds two shards, because that doesn't neccesairly give him more actual power, which is understandable to those familiar with Shardic theory (talking about the global scale, not Cosmeric scale). He is powerful because of his sentinence - as the only Shard known to us he's not blinded by any intent.

He is unique among other Shards because of the sentinent mind behind the power he wields.

That would make me believe that his metal is different from the others. It's power would not be raw, I think, it would be much more sophisticated. 

....

 

And for Harmonium being a metalmind, I'm pretty convinced it would act as an universal metalmind of increased capacity. Here, have this bead, you can store anything you want in here. Perhaps, it would even act as a shared metalmind, allowing every Feruchemist to store inside.

 

 

I'm sure I can find them sometime when I'm not running out the door, but I believe we have WoB that this is not the case? That in fact he DOES have both Intents, he is simply balanced between the two, feeling equal desire to protect and to destroy.

 

 

 

My impression that holding both shards had essentially created a "new" intent, not simply the balance of the two previous. So I think that Harmony isn't pulled between preserving and creating, but that his intent is Harmony. 

 

I also like the idea that Harmonium what have some sort of creation power, since that is at least one thing we've seen can be accomplished with combined Preservation and Ruin. The super-metalmind is also a cool idea. 

 

[Sevi]

The super-metalmind idea isn't mine, I've stolen it from the forums

[Scriptorian]

Just thought I'd mention that in my dream last night, I was reading the second Mistborn trilogy. It was awesome  . Anyway, in the "book" someone had made a bomb by alloying lerasium and atium. 

 

Clearly my dreams are prophetic and it should now be taken as canon that lerasium and atium together make explosives.   (Although, the Ars Arcanum collectively referred to allomancers and feruchemists as "mages"...? ?)