Atium Alloys

[Voidus]

Ok, this is my first post but I've been reading these forums for weeks. Time to contribute!

First off is a question, would you be able to have atium alloys of other alloys? Also as has already been stated an alloy is always a pushing metal so if you can double alloy (atium alloy of another alloy) would it then be pulling, pushing or some kind of double pushing :S

Anyway as for my list, I tried to apply temporal effects as much as possible as atium itself seems primarily temporal.

Iron: see future 'shadow' lines for nearby metals (where they will be) and can exert a time-delayed pull (pull on where they WILL be)

Steel: As Iron but with a push

Tin: Full sensory perception of the future, so hearing as well as just shadows alternatively more like a prophetic vision instead of a constantly moving image of the future around you.

Pewter: Not entirely sure, Mental fortitude maybe? or just making you smarter? (would be awesome to combine with a zincmind.)

Zinc: Portal to Shadesmar?

Brass: Portal from shadesmar? not sure what else would work for these 2 other than time delayed riot/soothe (kind of useful for a longer effect maybe?)

Copper: Create a coppercloud which is more like the time bubbles, only thing I could think of, so doesn't move basically or create a time-delayed coppercloud? Or possibly centre a coppercloud around someone else, protecting them from emotional allomancy.

Bronze: Detect future pulses.

Gold: Already known

Electrum: Maybe as normal atium but see only 1 persons future, or maybe see their ultimate future? -This is the one that made me think it may not work to create a double alloy

Bendalloy: Let everyone in your bubble see the future (group atium=Pure carnage, however also needs to be used tactically or enemies will also see atium shadows)

Cadmium: Let everyone in your bubble see the past (group malatium? more likely group gold, good distraction for people who aren't prepared)

(May have got Bendalloy and Cadmium the wrong way around, trying to think it through still)

Aluminum: Time delayed Aluminum? or I really like the permanent destruction of allomantic ability, anti-lerasium

Duralumin: Not sure, Understand a metals abilities better? instant-savant anyone? or I also like the permanent boost

Chromium: As with Aluminum but for others

Nicrosil: create savants?

That's all i can think of for now.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Voidus

[sententiadominus]

I was under the impression that Atium was all about what OTHER people did. I know we only know of two Atium based metals (Atium itself and Malatium), but it seemed that it turned whatever the normal metal did into not so much an external power as a power that is relating to others.

Even external metals have abilities which is not so much about others as you influencing others.

But Atium does not affect others, it shows them. Malatium does exactly what gold does, but for you to see in other people.

So here is my theories:

Iron: Sees other peoples metal lines when they are burning iron.

Steel: As above but with steel.

Tin: You can see what others can see.

Pewter: Can see what others strengths are.

Zinc: See others thoughts.

Brass: See others emotions.

Copper: See copperclouds.

Bronze: Hear the pulses others are hearing.

Gold: Malatium.

Electrum: Atium but with a specific person (Like Voidus)

Bendalloy: See Bendalloy bubbles/gives comprehension or speed to mind so you can see what is happening inside a bendalloy bubble in what seems to be real time.

Cadmium: See Cadium bubbles/?.

Aluminum: See others metals (inside).

Duralumin: See what power of metal is left but not specifics?

Chromium: Blocks others use of atium (like coppercloud that stops affect of atium compounds) doesn't quite fit.

Nicrosil: Above but with Duralumin effect.

I know these aren't as cool, but they with how I always imagined Atium to work, and seems to be a fair opposite to Lerasium, in that these alloys lets you see power in others while Lerasium (and its alloys) creates that power it in yourself.

[Voidus]

Brandon has said that atium alloys grant various temporal abilities (i've heard that it can also be mental, but I'm not sure about that as the interview transcript I've seen just said temporal) I think that the reason it did that with malatium is that gold is already a temporal metal so it had to just have a slightly different effect. I've also read that there could be more than 1 atium alloy for each metal so maybe it's to do with the amount of atium in the alloy giving different effects. (as there would be no 'commonly known' atium alloys if people tried to experiment with atium they would basically just be guessing)

Basically I think making gold external was probably just because gold is already a temporal metal.

[dougpgc]

I hope this thread isn't too old to add to  :-)

 

I was reading the Annotations for the Hero of Ages:

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-mistborn-3-chapter-three/

 

and there's a section on Electrum there.  Brandon explains the relationship between Gold and Atium, external and internal metals, malatium, etc.  At the end of the section, it says: "Editor's note: Careful readers may intuit something else about this that Brandon is holding back."

 

That's what got me thinking about how, if Atium + Gold lets you see someone's past, then Atium + Electrum would let you see someone's future, and so maybe the 'Atium' we've seen is actually Atium + Electrum.  And that kind of made sense because Lerasium has a couple of properties -- turning someone into a Mistborn, and something else we don't know yet -- so Atium might still be kind of a mystery or do a couple of different things too.

 

But then I got on here and read a bunch of forum entries already about this!  :-)  And I noticed that there were other really good opposing arguments too.  One of them was about Atium's temporal / mental effects.  I think the conclusion there was essentially that Atium + Electrum would give you sight about what the person could be in the distant future, where pure Atium does what it does in the books.

 

Have there been any other questions answered by Brandon (or that Editor) about any of this?  Has any of this been straightened out further?   Thanks   : )

[dougpgc]

Oh and if this helps, these were my thoughts on paper (in Courier font so as to be monospaced & easier to see)   :-)

 

Gold             Self          Past     Pure  (pulling)

Gold + Atium     Someone else  Past     Alloy (pushing)

Electrum         Self          Future   Pure  (pulling)

then would this complete the pattern?..

Electrum + Atium Someone else  Future   Alloy (pushing)

 

Edited December 5, 2013 by fog

[Ete'ni]

To me atium is very illogical issue. It's a god metal. But while lerasium can be burnt by anybody, atium has its own mistings. To me, it'd be logical if anybody could burn atuim as well. That would take both god metals out of allomantic system. And that would be logical.

[Voidus]

To me atium is very illogical issue. It's a god metal. But while lerasium can be burnt by anybody, atium has its own mistings. To me, it'd be logical if anybody could burn atuim as well. That would take both god metals out of allomantic system. And that would be logical.

Hemalurgic atium can be used to take any attribute so there are some parallels.

[Ete'ni]

but what if atium mistings do no exist and anyone can burn atium. what if rare tried, because Lord Ruler kept it in secret? Because It actually doesn't have a pair if we star thinking that gold mistings can burn god mteal alloy like gold+atium=malatium. Then it isn't paired with it.

[Oudeis]

 

That's what got me thinking about how, if Atium + Gold lets you see someone's past, then Atium + Electrum would let you see someone's future, and so maybe the 'Atium' we've seen is actually Atium + Electrum. 

 

Except, that isn't quite how alloys work, as Wax states in Alloy of Law. You get brass by adding copper to zinc. That doesn't mean that "Oh, just add copper to any metal and that makes it pulling instead of pushing." A base metal pulls and an alloy pushes. It doesn't matter what metals it's alloyed with, or with steel even if you alloy it with a metal, it's simply "this is a base metal" and "this is an alloy derived somehow from the same base metal." It's less arithmetic and more chemical reactions.

 

Good thoughts, though.

[Claincy]

but what if atium mistings do no exist and anyone can burn atium. what if rare tried, because Lord Ruler kept it in secret? Because It actually doesn't have a pair if we star thinking that gold mistings can burn god mteal alloy like gold+atium=malatium. Then it isn't paired with it.

That's not the first time that thought has come up. It still doesn't make sense to me with Demoux and the other "mistfallen" though. They were stricken by the mists for an extended period of time and they could burn atium afterwards, but not anything else.

Edited December 6, 2013 by lord Claincy Ffnord

[Ete'ni]

That's not the first time that thought has come up. It still doesn't make sense to me with Demoux and the other "mistfallen" though. They were stricken by the mists for an extended period of time and they could burn atium afterwards, but not anything else.

or... they were mistings but there weren't right metals for them. Or... it was Preservation way to get soldiers to caverns...

[Claincy]

or... they were mistings but there weren't right metals for them. Or... it was Preservation way to get soldiers to caverns...

So, they were then all mistings for a specific metal that hadn't been discovered? Or for aluminium or something? I do not think there was enough of preservation left to predict the series of events well enough to manipulate events to get them to the caverns.

 

We don't have any conclusive proof either way. But I do not think it is likely that Brandon wrote it that way.

[Sevi]

Now this is an interesting thread.
Before making my own theories, I'd first say that I don't find much logic as to why the alloys you mentioned would work the way you mentioned. Atium alloys affecting temperature? Why?
Also the thought of enchantment-alloys being able to - for example - create Savants is not very logical to me - Atium is of Ruin, and therefore it wouldn't make one's Allomancy stronger, because the whole idea of Allomancy belongs to Preservation. It IS a strong allomantic metal, but in it's own, twisted way, making people "perfect killing machines" - it is working, but it's working against Preservation.
But I guess that being a savant destroys a man in a way, so that would not seem so off as I'd have thought first.

 

 

Now, a few facts I'd like to establish to clear the mind:
1. God metals are not limited to one alloy at a time. (pretty obvious, hence this topic)

 

2. Lerasium itself makes a man a Mistborn.

2a. It's ultimate in it's own field (Preservation's metal in Preservation's investiture)

2b. Lerasium alloys make a Misting of the given metal.
2c. Lerasium Hemalurgic effect is unknown :< Would help so much here :<

 

3. The way that Atium is working in Allomancy is weird; it's working within Preservation's domain, yet it gives an effect opposed completely to Preservation's ways - by making them efficient killing machines.

3b. This does not stretch to Atium's alloys - malatium does not force killing.

This being written, I think i will spend some time now on guessing the alloys. Going to be back after some digging.

[Swimmingly]

Now this is an interesting thread.

Before making my own theories, I'd first say that I don't find much logic as to why the alloys you mentioned would work the way you mentioned. Atium alloys affecting temperature? Why?

Also the thought of enchantment-alloys being able to - for example - create Savants is not very logical to me - Atium is of Ruin, and therefore it wouldn't make one's Allomancy stronger, because the whole idea of Allomancy belongs to Preservation. It IS a strong allomantic metal, but in it's own, twisted way, making people "perfect killing machines" - it is working, but it's working against Preservation.

But I guess that being a savant destroys a man in a way, so that would not seem so off as I'd have thought first.

 

 

Now, a few facts I'd like to establish to clear the mind:

1. God metals are not limited to one alloy at a time. (pretty obvious, hence this topic)

 

2. Lerasium itself makes a man a Mistborn.

2a. It's ultimate in it's own field (Preservation's metal in Preservation's investiture)

2b. Lerasium alloys make a Misting of the given metal.

2c. Lerasium Hemalurgic effect is unknown :< Would help so much here :<

 

3. The way that Atium is working in Allomancy is weird; it's working within Preservation's domain, yet it gives an effect opposed completely to Preservation's ways - by making them efficient killing machines.

3b. This does not stretch to Atium's alloys - malatium does not force killing.

This being written, I think i will spend some time now on guessing the alloys. Going to be back after some digging.

do remember, TLR was using Preservation's power when he burnt off three quarters of the planet, turned a society into a harshly race-oriented class structure, and enslaved his own people (those he did not turn into mindless, mentally impaired beasts)

[Sevi]

do remember, TLR was using Preservation's power when he burnt off three quarters of the planet, turned a society into a harshly race-oriented class structure, and enslaved his own people (those he did not turn into mindless, mentally impaired beasts)

That's not quite the same, I believe.

If I'm not wrong, the power from the Well was Intent-less, while Allomancy is based more off Preservation's Intent than power. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's how I understand these events.

But still, I've got no idea about how the alloys would work, other than finding atium alloys being temporal is WoB. So no temperature fun there. Only time.

[Swimmingly]

Or was it the well, mists, and Lerasium are the body of Preservation, while the Pits, black mists, and Atium are the body of Ruin? Anyway, I just remembered that Atium, unlike the other metals, is not a gate to Preservation's power - it is a direct source of Ruin's power, his power Invested in metal

[Sevi]

Yeah, that would solve the problem.

One idea I've had after some thinking would be that Atium would add a temporal effect to what the alloyed metals are doing already. For example:

 

Idea #1
- Iron - Pulling on metals

- Steel - Pushing on metals

- Atium w/ Iron - Pulling on objects through time

- Atium w/ Steel - Pushing on objects through time

I don't mean it in a "time travel" kinda way. More like insta-aging of a material, like making it decay and rust or getting it back to it's previous state.

Idea #2
- Atium w/ Iron - Pushing time on an object, making it flow faster

- Atium w/ Steel - Pulling time on an object, making it flow slower.

 

So what's the difference between this and the previous idea, or this and bendalloy/cadmium? Well, it would be not creating a time-sphere that alternates the time speed, and it wouldn't determine the direction in which time is flowing. The subjective effect would be similiar to that of a time sphere, it would affect only the given object, move along with it and would not be visible as the spheres are.
Example 1:
Let's say you are to shoot a cannonball, but need some more power to it. So, get the cannon ready, fire, and Ation Push on the time around it so it doesn't fly further, but it does fly faster, doing some nice mayhem where needed. It's like shooting a feruchemist tappin' on them steels and irons.

Example 2:
You are a thief. The break-in didn't go as smoothly as planned; the guards are getting closer to the door, and you don't have much time to find a way out. But hey, a quick Atieel Pull on the door's time, and it suddenly becomes an impenetrable wall - no matter how strong they kick it, it will not move any faster, opening a few times slower than it would normally. The few spare seconds you just got just saved your live.


Okay, so that's what I've got for Iron and Steel. But what about the other metals? Let's try with tin.
- Tin - makes your senses stronger

So...
Idea #3

- Atium w/ Tin - Improves your awarness of time.

 

Why is that? It seems like a very natural thing to me, a temporal extend of tin that would enchance something that already is, in fact, a sense - but is not affected by tin itself. How would it work? For example, if you were trapped in a prison, buring the Atitin (okay, okay...) slowly will make you perfectly aware of exactly how many years, months, weeks, days, seconds have passed. You would be also aware of the time outside, whether it's day or night, winter or summer.
Doesn't seem like a great power to wield, not amazing enough for a god alloy? Well then, imagine that you have perfect knowledge of the timespan of every action you could take on a battlefield. As an archer, you would know exactly how fast that guy over there is running, how long will your arrow fly, where should you aim, exactly, to hit him in the middle of his run. It would, in fact, give you the final effect that Atium has, though only on things that are within your sight.

Okay, done for now, though I will be back with some more ideas, should I have any

 

 

EDIT:
Though, I've got another one for now:
Idea #4

- Copper - Hides allomantic pulses
- Bronze - Hears allomantic pulses

- Copper w/ Atium - Makes your past and future unreadable to Atium / Malatium / Electrum / etc.

- Bronze w/ Atium - Enables you to detect any anomalies in the timeflow, including Worldhopping.

 

This is, I believe, pretty much self-explainatory - again, I try to add a temporal component to the metals lacking it. Copper is the one that I like the most - it just feels right to me. Good, old, passively working copper with a godlike Atium twist to it. The idea itself makes it a whole lot more dangerous than it seems. Say, we got person A burning Atiopper and person B burning atium, person C burning atium, and a guy who's just standing there with a sword.
Now, if these people were to fight, from the B's point of view:
- For the not-burning man, you would win the fight rather simply, as you see the atium shadows of his moves.

- C would be matched to you - a thousand atium shadows around him, a fair fight with no edge.

- A would be the deadliest - as you do burn atium at the moment, but this guy has no shadows at all. He actually does have an edge over you, as you don't see him in the fight. He can just stab you and farewell.

 

As for Atium/Bronze alloy, the only reason I've got this idea is because Vin was able to hear the Well of Ascension, even though the well was not an allomancer, obviously. This alloy would take this fact even further, and as the normal bronze could make a man hear the Investiture of Well, this one would let the one detect Investiture-based anomalies of the timespace. What would it detect?
- A Feruchemist tapping/loading speed,

- A Cadmium/Bendalloy bubble,

- Any of the external effects of the beforementioned alloys,

- Worldhopping. (!)

 

Yeah, I know the last one seems like a stretch. Just seems too perfect of a plot device. Would also make a nice explaination as to how to look for Hoid. It seems a better idea even, when you think of it this way:

 

Sidetrack theory:
Let's say that an Atium alloy lets you detect where and when does Hoid worldhop. The knowledge of - and possibility to use - such device would be an obvious reason as to the role of Demoux in the 17th Shard. It would suggest, though, that even if Hoid could be located when he Hops, he would have to be searched for manually at the destination of the Hop. And that is what I think happens in The Way of Kings at Purelake.
Think about it, three men knowing exactly on which planet the man is, but totally unable to track him afterwards. That seems like it has some sense to it, let me know what you think

 

Edited December 7, 2013 by Sevi

[Aonar]

I've always read that line about Atium alloys giving mental and temporal effects as the alloys giving either mental or temporal effects, not both. There's a good chance I'm interpreting it completely wrong, but it makes more sense to me, and keeps Atium alloys from becoming too broken/repetitive.

 

The way I see it the addition of Atium inverts or corrupts some aspect of the metal. I think exactly what changes depends on the base metal group. Physical metals become Cognitive, and Enhancement metals become Temporal, or vice versa. Metals that are already Cognitive or Temporal become warped or twisted in some way.

 

This way (Atium)Electrum would show either your own, or someone else's possible future. 

Minor Steelhunt Spoilers:

This could be something like Sixth's bird, showing how you could die in the near future.

 

.

Also I your ideas on Iron/Steel and Tin, Sevi, they seem to fit fairly well as Temporal/Cognitive versions of the original metals. Though I do think the second idea with making things move more quickly/slowly through relative time would probably fit better as Cadmium/Bendalloy.

Edited January 3, 2014 by AonarFaileas

[Sevi]

I've always read that line about Atium alloys giving mental and temporal effects as the alloys giving either mental or temporal effects, not both. There's a good chance I'm interpreting it completely wrong, but it makes more sense to me, and keeps Atium alloys from becoming too broken/repetitive.

 

Actually, the "temporal only" info I've found was from an interview with Brandon. I forgot about the mental part from, i believe, Ars Arcanum?

I love the idea of "basic metal + temporal effect" alloys, but what you wrote makes just as much, if not more sense.

[Scriptorian]

Ack! Too many things I want to respond to!

fog, on 02 Dec 2013 - 5:11 PM, said:

 

 

Oh and if this helps, these were my thoughts on paper (in Courier font so as to be monospaced & easier to see)   :-)

 

Gold             Self          Past     Pure  (pulling)

Gold + Atium     Someone else  Past     Alloy (pushing)

Electrum         Self          Future   Pure  (pulling)

then would this complete the pattern?..

Electrum + Atium Someone else  Future   Alloy (pushing)

Electrum is a pushing metal (since its an alloy of gold), so I'm not sure your logic works here.

That's not quite the same, I believe.
If I'm not wrong, the power from the Well was Intent-less, while Allomancy is based more off Preservation's Intent than power. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's how I understand these events.

Actually, the Well did have an intent. I believe it was said in the annotations that Rashek was affected by the fact he was holding Preservation's power in that he fixed things retroactively. When he created a problem, he didn't try to undo it, he created a new solution. The reason he could use the power to cause such damage to the world and create and Evil empire is that, first of all, he didn't hold the power for very long and so wasn't affected by it very much, and two, his intent was to preserve. he tried to save the world by moving it closer to the sun, which inadvertently burned it to a crisp. The powers of a Shard aren't limited by an Intent, but, to a Shardholder who has been shaped by the Intent, it limits how they will chose to use their power. For example, Preservation have the power to destroy Ruin, but was so locked in by his intent that he wouldn't/couldn't ever choose to do so. Which is why Vin, who hadn't held Preservation nearly long enough to be so affected, could destroy Ruin.

 

Also, the intent of the shard doesn't affect what a magic system can do, but how its accessed. An allomancer uses allomancy by preserving himself, instead drawing upon the energy of Preservation. You can do some very destructive things with allomancy. By the same token, you can preserve things with powers granted by Hemalurgy, but gaining those powers will always involve destroying something/someone.

 

And my thoughts on the infamous atium-electrum alloy. Something that might be relevant is that I asked Brandon at a signing if anything in particular would happen if a mistborn burned electrum and atium at the same time, and he responded something to the effect that there wouldn't be anything beyond the normal effect the metals.

My own theory for the alloy's effect would be simply that you can see what other thing's futures will be based on the decisions you make. So if you decide to punch someone, you would see a shadow of them go reeling. Or maybe, the person is a pewter arm, so you see him barely react. Very similar to electrum's normal effect, except you see the result of your actions on other things. This seems to fit the logic rather well. The biggest problem I see is that it would either  essentially provide normal atium-vision (beacuse you'd have to see what would happen if you don't do anything), or you would only see a shadow of something if your actions would change what it does.

 

In either case, I think one significant advantage of this would be to potentially not just counter, but overcome another person's atium. That is, to essentially one step farther into the future than the other mistborn: not just seeing what they'll do, but how they'll react to what you are doing, such that you maintain the advantage.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Serendipity

[Oudeis]

The Well is Preservation's power and has his Intent; Harmony states this in the Hero of Ages epigraphs when he explains what Rashek did. Every time Rashek made a mistake, he did something else to compensate rather than undo what he'd first done, because it isn't in the nature of Preservation to undo anything, even a mistake. I will try to find which chapter it was that had this particular epigraph.

[Scriptorian]

The Well is Preservation's power and has his Intent; Harmony states this in the Hero of Ages epigraphs when he explains what Rashek did. Every time Rashek made a mistake, he did something else to compensate rather than undo what he'd first done, because it isn't in the nature of Preservation to undo anything, even a mistake. I will try to find which chapter it was that had this particular epigraph.

What he said. 

[dougpgc]

Ah you're right -- Electrum IS an alloy itself already, and is indeed a pushing metal.

 

I really like the theories about Atium's temporal effects (Sevi's), and I think your interpretation (Serendipity's) makes the most sense as far as Atium + Electrum now.  If the effects are, as Brandon said, simply in line with the normal effects the metals already have, then Atium's effect of seeing someone's immediate future + Electrum's effect of seeing "shadows of self" (like the title of the next Mistborn book)    would make sense to me.  Combining those effects would seem to be what you describe.

[Sevi]

Okay, back with more after some sketching and digging...

Idea #5

- Aluminum - deletes one's Allomantic reserves

- Chromium - wipes another person's reserves of metals

- Atium w/ Aluminum - makes oneself unable to use Allomancy 

- Atium w/ Chromium - makes an other person unable to use Allomancy

 

So what's the reasoning behind this? Again, it's the basic metal's power with a temporal effect added to it. The idea also comes from the fact that aluminum has basically just one use - to weaken a captive Allomancer. And since the natural guess is that adding a god metal on the top of some else metal would make it much stronger, here we are - a metal that serves no other purpose than weakening the Allomancer, like, completely. 

And since yeah, it does feel a bit overpowered, I think it could just block someone's allomancy for a period of time, not forever.

 

Idea #6

Okay, this one will contradict the previous idea a little bit, but I honestly don't believe that anything that has to do with Atium (and by extend, Ruin) would ever be able to increase one's innate Allomantic power, so I've thought of an other use for the two other enchantment metals...

- Duralumin - Increases your burn of the next metal

- Nicrosil - Increases someone's burn of the next metal

- Atium w/ Duralumin - Appends a temporal effect on the next burned metal

- Atium w/ Nicrosil - Appends a temporal effect on the next burned metal of someone else

 

So, this would in fact just change the next burned metal into it's Atium alloy. Seems fair to me.

 

Idea #7

- Zinc - Riots emotions

- Brass - Nullifies emotions

- Atium w/ Zinc - Enchants luck

- Atium w/ Brass - Reduces luck

 

Now, this is something I've been struggling with for a long time now. I've also been thinking about making these alloys enchant and decrease one's memory, but it just kinda didn't fit along God powers, even though it does have a bit of temporal touch to it. I guess it would just work like Chromium Feruchemy. 

But then, I'm not convinced whether an Atium alloy Allomancy should have the same effect as a normal metal Feruchemy. I think that what makes a great difference here is the fact that the luck in this Allomancy would actually be net positive, but well, that's what Chromium Compounding would do as well, so it's not the strongest idea I've had.

[Aonar]

I think a better one for zinc/brass, going by your idea of taking the original metal and adding a temporal aspect, might be speeding and slowing someone else's perception of time. That way it would remain true to the nature of the metals, and  just change the effect to be more time-oriented.

 

​And for the whole aluminum/duralumin problem, the metals effects don't really fit together perfectly anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. 

 

(I still don't really want to let go of the mental/temporal thing, since it was printed on the fancy table of metals that was printed a few years back. It's a lot easier to think up new metals your way though.)

 

I just had kind of a weird idea, someone's probably thought of it before, but working under the rules for different metal/alloy pairs, shouldn't all Atium alloys be external? The normal pushing - pulling relationship doesn't seem to apply, (malatium already broke that) but as Atium is classified as an external metal, all 16 of its alloys should be as well. If that were true it would narrow down the possibilities a fair bit.