Vin and Elend Passionless?

[Aradel]

Technically, Mormons are what I would call "demi-Christians" (People who retain some Christian ideas and knowledge but are lethally wrong on the important issues.)

A "Christian" is anyone who worships Christ. Regardless of what they believe about "important issues".

Just because we don't fall in line with Catholics or Protestants does not mean we are not Christian.

[firstRainbowRose]

And... we're going to stop that discussion right now. If you two want to talk about weather or not the LDS religion is christian or not, please do so in private messages or else on it's own thread. If you decide to make it a public discussion, please be aware it will be VERY CLOSELY monitored to make sure everyone is civil. This isn't a religious site, but it's also not a community for insulting another's beliefs. Please be respectful.

[Chaos]

This discussion is not relevant to the topic at hand. Please move it to PMs.

[Yados]

Getting back to the topic at hand:

I have to agree that I find Vin and Elend to be thoroughly passionless.

Which is sad, because they work really well on paper... just not on the page (troubling idiom for a book, I know)

Elend's idealism is something precious to Vin. He's not a fighter. He's a scholar. He's a good man trying to become a good king. He's something that she can protect, even when it's far from what the "smart" (read cynicism beat into her on the streets) course of action. It also sets her apart from Kelsier.

Vin is someone far outside of Elend's world. She's a thief, a skaa, a mistborn. There's a strange power relationship between the two which is uncommon in fantasy. Elend is basically, all said and done, the "princess". He's noble. He has an evil father, and evil suitor, and while he has political power, it's the hero who has to physically protect him. Which is fun to watch because we don't usually see that subversion.

So they work. I like them and their relationship makes sense. It's not easy and it should have pitfalls, but just because they're different and non-traditional doesn't mean that they can't be together. Honestly, if their genders were reversed, they would be pretty conventional.

On the page? Eh.

BS is good at a lot of things in his books, but passion isn't one of them. Everyone thinks everything through from every angle ad nauseum. Which is fine most of the time, because his characters are, by way of plot, presented with complex problems. Usually, seeing them work through those problems, make mistakes based on that work, then working through it again, is cathartic. Seeing Kaladin trying to figure out what he's going to do with Bridge 4 is cool because it seems for most of the book to be a thoroughly hopeless situation. Kelsier breaking down the problem of killing TLR is cool because we can see it all fall into place and understand the implications of how it comes undone at the end.

The problem is that BS uses a lot of these same things for his character work and relationships. Vin and Elend both go through their relationship from every angle so many times in Well of Ascension and it gets to the point where I was at a loss as to why they even wanted to be together. They are passionless. We don't really get them thinking about how great the other one is. The little things about them that enflames their desires or make them want to forget all the stupid navel-gazing.

They never say "to hell with it" and overcommit or do something they'll regret and then bear the consequences of that attachment. They see the problems, think through them, and keep their distance. And it's boring. Vin being "tempted" but keeping her distance with Zane is a million times less interesting than her making that mistake and having to deal with it. Elend not pushing with Vin because he knows about her trust issues is much less interesting than them sleeping together and then realizing that their physical and emotional intimacy aren't at comparable levels and then dealing with that. Because that would be raw and interesting.

What's on the page? It's like the relationship version of the two master samurai who cross paths, size one another up, and know who would win without ever fighting. It's an interesting concept, but when it's all you do, you just have a movie of people not fighting. Only here you also have to read the pages of analyzing that's going on in each samurai's head.

I also thought Sazed's crisis of faith in HoA shared a lot of these problems. Additionally, I found the resolution to them (not the big finale of the series, but Sazed's own little revelation about faith that precedes it) thoroughly unsatisfying. But then, I think my dissatisfaction with the revelation mostly comes down to ideological differences between BS and me. The 3/4 of a book that ramped to it was a schelp for entirely different reasons. WoK does this *much* better by taking Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan's personal arc and then intertwining it with a big plot problem. They're dealing with their own selves while dealing with external conflicts. Sazed's passive for most of HoA and it makes his personal arc the only thing to look at with regards to his segments

I'll also say that I thought Sazed and Tindwyl were quite well done, understated, and touching. Same with Breeze and Oren... though less so in HoA. So it's not like he can't do this well. It's just that I think some of his writer instincts work against him here.

I have plenty of opinions as to the whole sex and marriage thing, but I think they'd be better served with their own post.

[Commander Spoonface]

Passionless? Maybe. Loveless? No. I think this idea comes from the misconception that love is the romance-section bodice-ripping 50 Shades of Grey kind of thing, whereas as Sanderson is approaching from a very different angle with Vin and Elend.

Every writer (well, almost every writer) has a different view of what love is. If you read Pride and Prejudice and the Anne of Green Gables series, you'll find that Austen and Montgomery both treat the issue of love in an extremely different manner? Does this mean that one of them has the right of it, and that only one can be a good love story? No.

Anyway, the supposed "awkwardness" that the two displayed is very much intentional from where I'm standing.

Okay, I lied. I'm actually sitting. But that's irrelevant.

[Yados]

Passionless? Maybe. Loveless? No. I think this idea comes from the misconception that love is the romance-section bodice-ripping 50 Shades of Grey kind of thing, whereas as Sanderson is approaching from a very different angle with Vin and Elend.

Every writer (well, almost every writer) has a different view of what love is. If you read Pride and Prejudice and the Anne of Green Gables series, you'll find that Austen and Montgomery both treat the issue of love in an extremely different manner? Does this mean that one of them has the right of it, and that only one can be a good love story? No.

Anyway, the supposed "awkwardness" that the two displayed is very much intentional from where I'm standing.

Okay, I lied. I'm actually sitting. But that's irrelevant.

I don't think that anyone in the thread was implying that they didn't love one another. That's obvious and well-stated in the text. But I think passion comes into it as a way for the reader to feel that love viscerally which helps, ultimately, their own investment in it.

I think not "feeling" a romance that a huge chunk of the trilogy is built around, especially when so much page space is devoted to it, is a valid criticism. There's many different ways of doing something, but there's a huge spectrum between "bodice ripping" and "everyone is dead below the belt".

Of course, this gets compounded when they're married and suddenly everything in their relationship is fixed and they have no sexual disfunction whatsoever... but like I said. Another post.

Robert Jordan is a nice example. All of his characters, after the third book, are definitely sexual beings, even if the culmination of most of that sexuality is handled off page. It's a thoroughly fair handling that I think people from most sides of the spectrum can appreciate (well, I know some people who get a little pissed at the heternormativity of it, but whatevs) and makes clear that even if the storyteller is enforcing a rating... the characters aren't participating in that restriction.

[ReaderAt2046]

I don't think that anyone in the thread was implying that they didn't love one another. That's obvious and well-stated in the text. But I think passion comes into it as a way for the reader to feel that love viscerally which helps, ultimately, their own investment in it.

I think not "feeling" a romance that a huge chunk of the trilogy is built around, especially when so much page space is devoted to it, is a valid criticism. There's many different ways of doing something, but there's a huge spectrum between "bodice ripping" and "everyone is dead below the belt".

Of course, this gets compounded when they're married and suddenly everything in their relationship is fixed and they have no sexual disfunction whatsoever... but like I said. Another post.

Robert Jordan is a nice example. All of his characters, after the third book, are definitely sexual beings, even if the culmination of most of that sexuality is handled off page. It's a thoroughly fair handling that I think people from most sides of the spectrum can appreciate (well, I know some people who get a little pissed at the heternormativity of it, but whatevs) and makes clear that even if the storyteller is enforcing a rating... the characters aren't participating in that restriction.

I actually think Brandon deals better with sex than 99.99% of fantasy writers, including Jordan. It's a great relief to see characters with a little self-control.

[Scattered]

I actually think Brandon deals better with sex than 99.99% of fantasy writers, including Jordan. It's a great relief to see characters with a little self-control.

I agree. I've read some books where every single character seems to think of nothing else for the entire book, and to me that seems just as contrived and unrealistic as characters who logically think through every little thing (L.E. Modesitt, Jr, cough cough). I think it's perfectly natural for both Elend and Vin to be confused by their feelings and want to think them through. Who doesn't think through their relationships? I don't know anyone who's not constantly questioning and evaluating the relationship that they're currently in. I don't know about everyone else, but when I talk to my friends and they share their relationship highs and lows, they almost never mention sex. You know it's happening, but they don't talk about it. Just like Vin and Elend.

[ReaderAt2046]

Of course, this gets compounded when they're married and suddenly everything in their relationship is fixed and they have no sexual disfunction whatsoever... but like I said. Another post.

Just so you know, that's the way it's supposed to work. Sex outside marriage is dysfunctional, but sex inside marriage isn't. So what you complain about is actually much more realistic than the common view.

[frozndevl]

Just so you know, that's the way it's supposed to work. Sex outside marriage is dysfunctional, but sex inside marriage isn't. So what you complain about is actually much more realistic than the common view.

Really, are we going to turn this thread into a discussion about how sex is only "okay" if the people are married? I may be new here and not know everyone that well, but this statement seems a bit off since sex works the same married or not, and can produce kids in both situations. If this was sarcasm, I missed it.

[firstRainbowRose]

Personally, I would disagree with the statement that just because you're married sex is suddenly going to work out just fine. If people don't exactly connect on a sexual level before they're married it's not magically going to be fixed because they both signed a piece of paper (or said "I do" or what have you.)

However, for Vin and Elend the change from dysfunctional to working out does make sense, especially since you do see that it's not all sunshine and daisies. Vin makes comments about her concern -- in a light-hearted manner, but at the same time she is the type to have true fear behind the words. After that she becomes super focused on kicking koloss butt, and we don't see her and Elend again for a year. At that point they've had enough time to talk through and work out some of the major issues, and the rest would be taken care of off screen.

[Yados]

I agree. I've read some books where every single character seems to think of nothing else for the entire book, and to me that seems just as contrived and unrealistic as characters who logically think through every little thing (L.E. Modesitt, Jr, cough cough). I think it's perfectly natural for both Elend and Vin to be confused by their feelings and want to think them through. Who doesn't think through their relationships? I don't know anyone who's not constantly questioning and evaluating the relationship that they're currently in. I don't know about everyone else, but when I talk to my friends and they share their relationship highs and lows, they almost never mention sex. You know it's happening, but they don't talk about it. Just like Vin and Elend.

That's fair, certainly. I'd point out that there's a difference between talking to your friends and being privy to their inner thoughts via the narrator.

My point isn't that it's bad or even unrealistic. There's all kinds of people out there. Just that it does come off as passionless on the page.

[Windrunner]

I'd say one of the reasons that there isn't any overt passion in the book is that it would undermine other plot points. For a good portion of the book, Vin is convinced that she doesn't deserve to be with Elend. So if she slept with him, that wouldn't make any sense because it would imply, to me at least, that she felt she was worthy of him. She probably is intentionally avoiding doing anything passionate in the least because of her self confidence issues.

So I'd say not hugely passionate, but for good reason. It wouldn't make sense to me at least to have all that stuff in there when the characters are going through other problems that intentionally counteract them being together. I for one didn't miss it. The problems that they were going through implied a lot of tension to me. But then again, different strokes for different folks, it worked great for me but that doesn't mean it did so for everyone.

[Yados]

Personally, I would disagree with the statement that just because you're married sex is suddenly going to work out just fine. If people don't exactly connect on a sexual level before they're married it's not magically going to be fixed because they both signed a piece of paper (or said "I do" or what have you.)

However, for Vin and Elend the change from dysfunctional to working out does make sense, especially since you do see that it's not all sunshine and daisies. Vin makes comments about her concern -- in a light-hearted manner, but at the same time she is the type to have true fear behind the words. After that she becomes super focused on kicking koloss butt, and we don't see her and Elend again for a year. At that point they've had enough time to talk through and work out some of the major issues, and the rest would be taken care of off screen.

Not to go into technicalities, but the first time we see Vin and Elend post sexual encounter was about 3/4 of the way through Well of Ascension. It's after they'd been married and after they'd left for Terris but before the Siege of Luthadel turned into a battle. And in the scene they are very lovey-dovey and, after the whole book's worth of dysfunction and reasons for keeping their distance, have apparently had sex free of emotional incident.

So it's not a year later.

I do acknowledge that, within the book, Vin had been through an emotional moment of clarity and a lot of the change of demeanor can be traced back to that. However, it does serve the "marriage fixes everything" trope that I've observed in some of Sanderson's work in a way that it wouldn't if we hadn't seen Vin and Elend being more intimate until after the time skip between Well and Hero.

I agree that in Hero of Ages, it's been a year and they've obviously grown, both of them, and they act more like partners. I do much prefer them in that book.

Also I want to point out that this was not even a little bit what I was arguing in this thread.

I'd say one of the reasons that there isn't any overt passion in the book is that it would undermine other plot points. For a good portion of the book, Vin is convinced that she doesn't deserve to be with Elend. So if she slept with him, that wouldn't make any sense because it would imply, to me at least, that she felt she was worthy of him. She probably is intentionally avoiding doing anything passionate in the least because of her self confidence issues.

Vin and Elend being passionless has nothing to do with whether they have sex or don't have sex. They can be passionate but abstain. I didn't mean it as a byword for sexual content. I don't read BS's books expecting that.

I mentioned that if they did have sex when they weren't emotionally ready for it, it would cause a lot more raw, less self-analyzed, emotional drama that would have been complex and, if well written, interesting. It would have forced some issues that really only ever existed in potentia in the book itself.

But that doesn't mean that's the only way it could have gone. I also never said that the fact that it played out like it did made it inherently passionless. I found it passionless because the characters dwelled on their doubts about themselves in regards to one another far more than I felt like they thought about how much they loved one another, physically or emotionally.

It's a writing thing, not a character or sequence of events thing.

[Windrunner]

It's a writing thing, not a character or sequence of events thing.

If you believe this to be the case then that is fine, but I'm still afraid that I disagree. In my opinion, passion, sex or any other form, is still something Vin would be uncomfortable with and actively seek to avoid. If she doesn't think she's going to be with Elend because she's infereior then I don't think there would be an opportunity for passion in that situation. If you see it otherwise or still believe it be an error on Brandon's part them I'm afraid we'll probably just have agree to disagree, possibly due to different tastes and expectations of fantasy. But to each his own.

I had no problem with Vin and Elend working out their issues. As you've pointed out, Vin's realization that she wanted to be with Elend was a pivotal moment. She resolved her conflict and showed Elend that she did want to be with him, which had been his problem all along. So there's not much to work out, in my opinion, because the crux of the matter had been resolved when Vin had them get married. It signified both her acceptance of herself and showed her true feelings to Elend. And they did have some time between the marriage and when we saw them together in the tent. (a brief period I'll admit) They had a few days in Luthadel after Sazed married them and then a few more on the trail . I think that is was plenty of time to work out whatever minimal issues were left over. The whole thing grew out of one colossal misunderstanding after all, so I don't think it would take too terribly long to work most everything out.

I am curious though, where have you seen the "marriage fixes everything" trope in the Brandon's other books? Marriage came toward the end of Elantris, well after everything had been fixed and Siri and Susebron only made more problems for themselves because of their marriage. And there's been next to no romance in TWoK yet, so I'm curious as to what I'm missing here.

[Yados]

If you believe this to be the case then that is fine, but I'm still afraid that I disagree. In my opinion, passion, sex or any other form, is still something Vin would be uncomfortable with and actively seek to avoid. If she doesn't think she's going to be with Elend because she's infereior then I don't think there would be an opportunity for passion in that situation. If you see it otherwise or still believe it be an error on Brandon's part them I'm afraid we'll probably just have agree to disagree, possibly due to different tastes and expectations of fantasy. But to each his own.

I never said it was an error. I said it was passionless. That's an adjective and not a value judgement. It makes sense for Vin's character, a bit less for Elend's, and overall is somewhat symptomatic of BS's writing style.

I don't have a problem with it. I think passion is a valuable narrative tool. Like suspense or horror. It invests us viscerally in a narrative, not just intellectually. It's not being used here. That's fine, but it's also my answer to the question posed in the thread title.

[ReaderAt2046]

Yados, it sounds like your position here is:

1. Vin and Elend are not acting like they are in love.

2. You are not arguing that this is inappropriate or unrealistic, merely stating it as a fact.

Have i understood you correctly?

[Yados]

Yados, it sounds like your position here is:

1. Vin and Elend are not acting like they are in love.

2. You are not arguing that this is inappropriate or unrealistic, merely stating it as a fact.

Have i understood you correctly?

Ah, yes. That was my point.

[Windrunner]

Oh I can agree with that completely, I think it was just me misunderstanding, as per usual . I do want to point out that the reason they acted like they weren't in love was because they were, but that wasn't the point of the discussion. That makes more sense now.