Vin and Elend Passionless?

[Dund]

Does anyone else find their relationship to be somewhat flat? I'm part way through Well of Ascension, so maybe it improves, but I find that I'm pretty disappointed by their relationship so far. It seemed interesting the way it developed in the first book, but it just seems like it's passionless so far. They have been together a year, but there's no real romantic tension between them whatsoever. They don't even feel like lovers, just good friends, whom seem to have an awkward preteen level affection for each other (they sleep in separate rooms??). It just makes it difficult to relate to as an adult, the romance kind of seems out of place and unrealistic, like reading about two 13 year olds having an awkward coming of age dalliance.

I'm not talking about graphic sex scenes or anything of the sort, I know Brandon has no intention of ever doing that, and that can also be awkward and out of place. But there are other ways to show intimacy between lovers that don't involve anything graphic, or even the two characters touching, it can simply be through dialogue or in other subtle ways that foreshadow scenes that we don't see. But there is none of that whatsoever, and I kind of think that either you do a romance properly or you don't do it at all, or at least you don't devote many scenes to it, half hearted doesn't work. It detracts somewhat from both characters and their relationship.

It seems to me that it would be better if Vin were not involved in a romantic relationship at all, and the two don't seem to mesh that way personality wise either. Their scenes together where they do show affection seem somewhat forced, and Vin's transformation from powerful allomancer into a clingy child doesn't really promote sympathy for her character whatsoever, more the opposite. And that in turn actually makes their relationship seem even more awkward and out of place, because I don't see why Elend shows such attraction to a person whom while alone around him seems little more than an emotionally damaged child. His descriptions of her in their scenes together as a 'woman' just seem like a contradiction that doesn't fit given the way she acts.

Basically they seem like they should make for good friends and that's it. I kind of find myself hoping that she leaves Elend, and either finds someone that meshes with her character better, or just goes solo. Though I fully expect that won't happen.

Anyone agree? And does the relationship improve later in the books?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Dund

[Aradel]

Have you only read the first book?

[Inkthinker]

Nah, he says right there he's partway through book 2.

At any rate, I wouldn't call it passionless, but it's not as if this was a romantic series. Each character expresses their love for the other, and if we don't get a lot of steamy scenes it's because we spend more time with the characters during the moments that are of interest to the plot. Their private time isn't germane to the progression of the overall storyline, and Brandon wasn't comfortable adding that sort of material just to titillate.

[Eric]

I'd RAFO this, and argue that part of the plot of Well of Ascension leads directly to an added closeness in their relationship. So yes, it gets better.

[Zas678]

Plus, I feel like after Elend proposed to Vin (before WoA begins), and Vin said no, things may have gotten a little tense between the two of them.

But listen to Inkthinker. If you don't know, he's the guy who does a ton of the illustrations for the books (he's done most of the maps for his books for example), and so is privy to a lot of information.

[Inkthinker]

Well... not about the original Mistborn trilogy. I don't know a lot more than any other avid reader, 'cause Brandon was largely done with that series before I got involved.

[Dund]

I know it's not meant to be a romantic series, but I prefer those to not have much in the way of romances in them, so you don't have to really think about that at all, or have it be between secondary characters that don't get much time in the book. I quite enjoy reading well done romances, but hate reading rushed or poorly put together ones, and would rather read a book without any at all.

The romance between Elend and Vin seems to take up either a lot of the scenes either between the two, or if they are apart they seem to be thinking about each a fair bit so it is difficult to ignore. It therefore needs to be well done IMO if you are going to devote a lot of pages to it (which there has been so far).

And yes, Im up to Part 2 of the second book. Hopefully their romance either starts to pick up a bit or less time is devoted to it, because it's kind of annoying to read through and for me seems a bit out of place and jolts me a bit out of the immersion in the rest of the story. Vin just acts like a clingy little child, and as much as I realise she has abandonment issues, it just doesn't seem like a very appealing way of illustrating that fact, when the rest of the time she is going around kicking peoples asses.

Also it's not about titillation either. Their interactions are kind of bland. I guess I just don't think their characters match in a romantic way. Vin does not open up to him whatsoever (they have apparently been together a year, so it's not as if they would be just getting to know each other) so the closeness of their interactions doesn't feel natural given that. Vin makes it pretty clear that no one but a mistborn could ever really understand her, which makes sense, but makes her supposed strong attachment to Elend just seem even more strange.

I guess I bring it up because it's the first time in the books so far where there has been scenes that have made me think and not just be immersed in the story.

Basically it kind of feels like they just started getting touchy feely with each other without developing any kind of real relationship whatsoever. Like a relationship of convenience that permeates a significant number of fantasy stories these days.

Plus I think in the back of my mind I've always kind of thought of Vin as an asexual kind of character from the first book, even with the balls and what not. So that just adds to the unnaturalness of it also.

But if it picks up later on in the story then grand.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Dund

[Alliare]

Well... from what I have always thought, if you take 'lovers' in the strict meaning of the term, I don't think Vin and Elend were ever lovers.

... and I think it would be quite obvious why if you look at Vin's background, with her confidence problems and everyone betraying her in the end; and Elend and what happend when Straff took him to make love with a Skaa woman.

And that explains perfectly why they have separate rooms and so on.

... actually, it seemed so logical to me that it didn't struck me as odd at all when I read the book. But there are many ways of loving people, showing affection... and even having two people loving each othger... and even doubting what the other person feels. Thinking that everything is gonna be like in our world would be simplifying things a lot.

... that much of a lot, that I really doubt husbands and wives actually slept in the same room in Luthadel's noble Houses, anyway.

However... the problem is... I can't really keep talking about the relationship develops. This is roughly 1/3 of the first book. I don't really know how much you have read. Honestly, if you want my advice, finish the books first or you are going to get every page from here to the last word spoiled. And I can hardly believe you would want that.

[Eri]

I really enjoyed their relatioship.

As for separate rooms etc – not having sex before gennting married isn't unrealistic. About half of couples I know (includning us) also didn't. So it happens. (And I'm glad we did it this way.)

Yes, we're Christians, but I guess people could prefer such behavior for some non-religious(sp?) reasons, especially Vin with her emotional issues and Elend with his sex issues ­– his dad made him go to skaa borthel (sp?) when he was 13 to “turn him into a man” and Elend didn't know that the girl will be killed.

And I think Sanderson tends to write relationships with Christian-like wiev on sex, because he is also Christian (LDS are Christians, right? Wikipedia says so, sorry if anyone feels offended by this question) or a religious person anyway. And I actually like it, I remebmer reading Guy Gavriel Kay's “Tigana” (or was that some other of his books?) and it was really good, except for all that lots, lots and lots of sex. Can't please anyone, I guess.

Edit: If you want romance, read “Warbreaker”. Yes, it has sex.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Eri

[Dund]

Well... from what I have always thought, if you take 'lovers' in the strict meaning of the term, I don't think Vin and Elend were ever lovers.

... and I think it would be quite obvious why if you look at Vin's background, with her confidence problems and everyone betraying her in the end; and Elend and what happend when Straff took him to make love with a Skaa woman.

And that explains perfectly why they have separate rooms and so on.

... actually, it seemed so logical to me that it didn't struck me as odd at all when I read the book. But there are many ways of loving people, showing affection... and even having two people loving each othger... and even doubting what the other person feels. Thinking that everything is gonna be like in our world would be simplifying things a lot.

... that much of a lot, that I really doubt husbands and wives actually slept in the same room in Luthadel's noble Houses, anyway.

However... the problem is... I can't really keep talking about the relationship develops. This is roughly 1/3 of the first book. I don't really know how much you have read. Honestly, if you want my advice, finish the books first or you are going to get every page from here to the last word spoiled. And I can hardly believe you would want that.

Fair enough. I like Vin's character the most, and probably just prefer her out kicking someones chull, rather than being in ill fitting scenes with Elend, that for me detract from her as a character. It would be nice if she found someone to be with that was mistborn, and could properly relate to her, like that stalker dude whoever it is. Or she were just a pure loner assassin.

Can't say I'd be sad were Elend killed off somehow. He seems like a weak character and I can't understand why the book tries so hard to make it seem important that Elend is protected (mainly Vin I guess), like it would be really bad if he were killed/assassinated. He's no Kelsier, I'm sure they could bring someone in who could do if not as good a job then close enough, and quite possibly better as King.

Anyway back to the book then

Edited January 15, 2012 by Dund

[Dund]

I really enjoyed their relatioship.

As for separate rooms etc – not having sex before gennting married isn't unrealistic. About half of couples I know (includning us) also didn't. So it happens. (And I'm glad we did it this way.)

Yes, we're Christians, but I guess people could prefer such behavior for some non-religious(sp?) reasons, especially Vin with her emotional issues and Elend with his sex issues ­– his dad made him go to skaa borthel (sp?) when he was 13 to “turn him into a man” and Elend didn't know that the girl will be killed.

And I think Sanderson tends to write relationships with Christian-like wiev on sex, because he is also Christian (LDS are Christians, right? Wikipedia says so, sorry if anyone feels offended by this question) or a religious person anyway. And I actually like it, I remebmer reading Guy Gavriel Kay's “Tigana” (or was that some other of his books?) and it was really good, except for all that lots, lots and lots of sex. Can't please anyone, I guess.

Edit: If you want romance, read “Warbreaker”. Yes, it has sex.

While I would expect that they would have sex, being in the same room doesn't even have to fully imply that. It would just make sense purely from the point of view of Vin sleeping in the same room as Elend due to the fact that she feels the need to protect him. They could even have two separate beds in the room if it came to that. Why would Vin wish to have a separate room when she often can't even bare him to be out of her sight? It makes practical sense for her to sleep in his room, as separate from anything sexual, and that fact that they are supposed to be in a relationship I would have thought made it fait accompli, even if they did choose not to do the deed. I'm pretty sure she actually did sleep in his room on the floor in their first scene in the book.

Also from what I gather, neither of them have much interest in religion, so I don't see how belief would be a factor. If you were to go down that path you could have just made them religious. Your explanations about their history make some sense though.

But ultimately my post wasn't really about sex or at least it's only a small part of it. It was about an intimate relationship and how it works on an emotional level, which seems non-existant so far. I think it works far better if they are just friends and keep all the touchy stuff out of it. But I'll keep reading and see how it pans out.

I've read both Elantris and Warbreaker, and thought both were very good. The romances weren't even a thought to me in those because they were practically non existent so I mostly ignored them. They only really came to a head towards the end of each book.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Dund

[Alliare]

See? That's what I meant.

I could start explaining now many things about Elend's personality, because I actually find it quite, fitting, well-depeloped (I personally find him to be one of the most realistic characters in the book), but I cannoct, bgecause I would probably spoil the book to you, at least the second one. In fact, probably it would be enough with me copying and then pasting what I wrote in one of the spoiler-allowed subforums.

Vin sleeping in the floor (or, rather, in the balcony) of Elend's room) strikes me as something she would probably have done more than once. She's quite paranoid, the girl. But she would not share the same room than Elend because, given what we know about Luthadel's society, not only she would have needed to be very sure of herself for that (which we know she was not), but also it was probably something not done in Luthadel's upper classes and would have been bad for Elend's reputation to sleep with a woman he was not married to, which was Vin's main concern.

Religion has nothing to do with it in this case, at least not inside the story itself. But religious beliefs are not the only way which will not make a couple not have sex, if you are talking about that specifically. We talked about Elend and Vin's backgrounds before.

Nor all the couples are touchy or things like that. Love, affection... it can work in many different ways with very different people. Please remember how they have lived, who they are, their responsibilities and what they have to do...

And I still recommend you finish the book or we won't be able to talk properly about this or any other Mistborn-related topic.

[Aminar]

I agree with the Op to an extent. Their relationship feels passionless during book 2. That makes sense though, its a rough spot inthrir relationship. The lack of passion builds tension for the Sane plotline.

[Aethling]

Finish reading the book. Your points are pretty much dead by the end of the book.

I am surprised that no one mentioned their sleep schedules. Elend tends to sleep at night while Vin is out prowling

usually until daybreak. By the time Vin would go to bed, Elend is already going about the day's business. It is also mentioned several times that Vin rarely sleeps more than a few hours. At one point Vin thinks it is a waste for her to have any room. Elend is fairly straight about seeing her naked. At one point when she is hurt, he turns around when someone is working on a wound to her breast. He just does not think it is right for him to see her naked without being married.

Sanderson tends not to write many love scenes into his books. The best that I can remember, pretty much each romantic scene that Sanderson has written has involved married couples. Vin sits in Elends lap and lays on some kisses, but that is about as far as Sanderson goes. Selene and Raoden have no see, but they spend most of the book not realizing who the other person actually is. Siri is technically married to the Godking and it takes several weeks before anything happens there. Vivenna is probably a virgin. She would have been kept for the king before she left, and she never has any romantic interests while fighting for her sister. Vin and Elend, well keep reading. Shallan is probably like Vivenna. Jasnah, I can't really remember. Dalinar was married. His son saves a hooker, but does not avail himself of her services due to his honor code. We have not seen any real romantic interests for the bridge crew leader, puppy love aside.

If you want sex scenese, try Goodkind or Kate Elliott they both tend to get fairly graphic.

[Aradel]

Brandon's religious. Not alot of it slips into his books, but you'll likly never see any of the good guy's having pre-marital sex.

[Eric]

While we didn't see it, it happens. Vin and Elend were only married for one year; Brandon cites the fact that Vin didn't get pregnant over the "several years" that they were together as proof of birth control on Scadrial. (Although one could argue that abstinence counts as birth control, it would seem to invalidate the example.) That part is far and away from the plot itself, though.

[Dund]

Finish reading the book. Your points are pretty much dead by the end of the book.

I am surprised that no one mentioned their sleep schedules. Elend tends to sleep at night while Vin is out prowling

usually until daybreak. By the time Vin would go to bed, Elend is already going about the day's business. It is also mentioned several times that Vin rarely sleeps more than a few hours. At one point Vin thinks it is a waste for her to have any room. Elend is fairly straight about seeing her naked. At one point when she is hurt, he turns around when someone is working on a wound to her breast. He just does not think it is right for him to see her naked without being married.

I guess that's why I find Elend a somewhat tedious boring character (so far). The charming idealist full of proper morals and manners. I don't find it viable for someone like that to be a leader in a time of war, where it's survival of the fittest, dog eat dog etc. I understand he's getting training, which kind of seems an overly convenient plot device.

George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire is prob my fav fantasy series (though I know the last two books have made things a bit unwieldy) but it shows how war treats people like Elend. They usually end up dead or lying in the gutter somewhere nearly so. It's meant to be harsh. However I'll give Mr Sanderson credit, he generally gives even those stock standard cliche characters more depth than most.

I'm up to the part Elend is getting training, I just hope that he doesn't go all super charismatic leader all of a sudden which would be unrealistic. Though Sanderson's character development has been pretty good so far in the books of his I've read, so I don't expect this. I have to say Zane is a much more interesting character, though I've only read a chapter from his viewpoint.

I've read Goodkind's Sword of Truth, the sex in there seems mostly for his own titillation purposes, which can also be overdone especially in the first book with the s&m scenes, though I did find the series entertaining if a tad preachy.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Dund

[Thor]

Brandon's religious. Not alot of it slips into his books, but you'll likly never see any of the good guy's having pre-marital sex.

Guess what? It happened. Spoilers for middle to end of Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages (and some speculation that affects Alloy):

Breeze and Allriane have pre-marital sex, probably quite often during Hero of Ages. Brandon speaks about it more in some of the annotations, but it is pretty easy to tell that they are having sex just in the text itself. Though it isn't a stretch to think that the two of them did get married after the end, for propriety's sake at the least, and also seeing Wax's last name.

To Dund (I hope I got to all of your points, though please feel free to remind me if I missed any): Speaking of separate rooms, I think the main reason why they sleep in separate rooms is propriety and even then they are almost never asleep at the same time, iirc. I think Vin even points this out to Elend as a reason to open her room for something else, but Elend refuses, for propriety's sake. I agree with Alliare on all points, especially the points about Elend and Vin's life.

To go a little farther on Elend and Vin's backgrounds: remember that Vin has been trying (and succeeding, as far as I can tell) to not be thought of (and possibly not thinking) in a sexual way at all for 16 years. During that time she tried not to become a friend (or even acquaintance) with anyone, either, due to betrayals. Give her a break if she seems a little stiff when talking with Elend. Same goes for Elend as well, due to his amazing failure of a father. Also, the reason why the two of them seem like 13 year old teenagers is because they ARE, emotionally. Vin is 18 and Elend is 20 (during Well, iirc) but both of them have had experiences equatable to being physically and/or mentally abused (Vin's relationship, of any kind, experience is worse than Elend's, imo, though neither would be a good way to grow up). Neither of them have ever been in a romantic relationship, afawk, so of course they are awkward. Both are very naive about relationships (both real and how they imagine they should be), in their own ways, with Elend leaning toward the idealistic side (as fits his personality) and Vin leaning toward the pessimistic side, so their relationship comes off as being juvenile. Their awkwardness is pretty realistic from where I am standing. Plus, as I am sure you know: relationship/love =/n= (Does not necessarily equal) sex. Well of Ascension spoilers (fairly close to the end, iirc):

Just look at Sazed and Tindwyl.

P.S. I think that all of your gripes with Elend are called into question by characters in-universe, so just finish the book. Have faith (trust, whatever) in BS. He does a very good job with characterization, even to "stock standard cliche characters," as you call Elend.

P.P.S. Read through your observations again after you finish the book. Read this spoiler after you do so:

Some of your observations are hilariously/impressively accurate in hindsight. Your lines about Elend's idealism and how it really works out made me chuckle with their accuracy.

[Eric]

Have faith (trust, whatever) in BS.

That has to be one of the most hilarious things I've ever read. I know, I know, but still.

[Dund]

Guess what? It happened. Spoilers for middle to end of Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages (and some speculation that affects Alloy):

To Dund (I hope I got to all of your points, though please feel free to remind me if I missed any): Speaking of separate rooms, I think the main reason why they sleep in separate rooms is propriety and even then they are almost never asleep at the same time, iirc. I think Vin even points this out to Elend as a reason to open her room for something else, but Elend refuses, for propriety's sake. I agree with Alliare on all points, especially the points about Elend and Vin's life.

To go a little farther on Elend and Vin's backgrounds: remember that Vin has been trying (and succeeding, as far as I can tell) to not be thought of (and possibly not thinking) in a sexual way at all for 16 years. During that time she tried not to become a friend (or even acquaintance) with anyone, either, due to betrayals. Give her a break if she seems a little stiff when talking with Elend. Same goes for Elend as well, due to his amazing failure of a father. Also, the reason why the two of them seem like 13 year old teenagers is because they ARE, emotionally. Vin is 18 and Elend is 20 (during Well, iirc) but both of them have had experiences equatable to being physically and/or mentally abused (Vin's relationship, of any kind, experience is worse than Elend's, imo, though neither would be a good way to grow up). Neither of them have ever been in a romantic relationship, afawk, so of course they are awkward. Both are very naive about relationships (both real and how they imagine they should be), in their own ways, with Elend leaning toward the idealistic side (as fits his personality) and Vin leaning toward the pessimistic side, so their relationship comes off as being juvenile. Their awkwardness is pretty realistic from where I am standing. Plus, as I am sure you know: relationship/love =/n= (Does not necessarily equal) sex. Well of Ascension spoilers (fairly close to the end, iirc):

P.S. I think that all of your gripes with Elend are called into question by characters in-universe, so just finish the book. Have faith (trust, whatever) in BS. He does a very good job with characterization, even to "stock standard cliche characters," as you call Elend.

P.P.S. Read through your observations again after you finish the book. Read this spoiler after you do so:

Gah, seems like spoilers dont stay hidden when quoting. Somehow managed not to see much more than something about Sazed and Tindwyl, though that's probably not much of a suprise, and Breeze and the girl.

I've actually got past a scene after the post I made above that more fully explains the separate bedroom thing, so that's fine, and seems a more acceptable.

To be honest as soon as I find myself thinking about how cliched and predictable a character is in his actions or thoughts, BS (great initials to have btw) seems to have some internal or external dialogue with said character that addresses them. It doesn't always make up for it, but it does make it a little more interesting to read about. Reading a few of his annotations for each chapter on his site it seems like he thought through those cliche's and ways to get around them. Doesn't always work, but at least he makes the effort to, which many fantasy authors don't.

And it's quite good that Elend's complete unsuitability to the task is called into question, but Im not sure I buy how quickly he's improving his leadership skills, and again BS seems to mention this as an issue in one of his chapter annotations.

I also agree with the Elend, Vin relationship and the maturity level thing. I just find it hard to visualise Vin being so desperately attached to someone like Elend. Kelsier yes, but Elend not really. She just doesn't seem like the kind of female that would take much interest in someone so idealistic and sheltered, when she knows much better given her own upbringing. Doesn't seem like a natural fit at all.

Given they are so abstinent in many ways in their relationship, both in regards to sex and emotionally in terms of opening up with each other, the touchy feeliness in their scenes together also seems wrong. Like they simply don't have enough of a connection with each other for them to be so openly affectionate, especially in public, where Vin seems to always be clinging onto him. It's like that part was rushed to without having their relationship developed enough.

I actually wouldn't have given any of this much thought if they were more stand offish in terms of the level of affection they show towards each other in their scenes, as it would have fit better given where they seemed to be in their relationship.

Plus as I said, I kind of felt like Vin was a bit of an asexual character from the first book which just adds to it feeling off.

In any case, I'm not convinced, but am coming around to it as I go through. Plus things are picking up a bit, as it was a bit slow at the start there with not much else to focus on.

I will say reading Song of Ice and Fire really was an eye opener. I never used to give much thought to any of this, but since reading that my expectations of character complexity rose about a billion times.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dund

[Aminar]

I will say reading Song of Ice and Fire really was an eye opener. I never used to give much thought to any of this, but since reading that my expectations of character complexity rose about a billion times.

Brandon sets a very different tone than Martin. You're never going to get Martin's level of Gritty realism out of Brandon's books. In Brandon's worlds idealists succeed(To an extent). We're along for the ride to find out why and how.

(That may be colored by his backstory, one of perseverance toward a dream in direct opposition to what society would have him do.)

In reality war breaks some idealists and lets others succeed. No one path or mindset is right for everything, in life or in literature. Personally, while Martin is far more realistic, I prefer Brandon. He's much more fun and interesting to read. I don't hate the world when I finish his books.

[Rayonn]

Having Vin looking after him gives Elend a bit more margin for error than most of Martin's heroes. There are several events (especially in aGoT and aSoS) that would have gone completely differently if Catelyn Stark had been a Mistborn of anything like Vin's proficiency.

[Dund]

Brandon sets a very different tone than Martin. You're never going to get Martin's level of Gritty realism out of Brandon's books. In Brandon's worlds idealists succeed(To an extent). We're along for the ride to find out why and how.

(That may be colored by his backstory, one of perseverance toward a dream in direct opposition to what society would have him do.)

In reality war breaks some idealists and lets others succeed. No one path or mindset is right for everything, in life or in literature. Personally, while Martin is far more realistic, I prefer Brandon. He's much more fun and interesting to read. I don't hate the world when I finish his books.

Sanderson certainly seems very set on there being good and evil in the world, which I disagree with and goes against the world Martin tries to portray. Everyone has the ability to do good and bad things, but no one is inherently evil or inherently good like BS seems to push. At least he has some (seemingly) gray characters in his books though to somewhat offset this.

I've never really liked reading about idealists. They often seem more full of themselves and arrogant/self righteous than the tyrants in novels. I love anti heroes. It just seems more natural and real for me for someone to be human and not necessarily want to hurt others, but ultimately be on the lookout for number 1. None of this I will give my life for the people crap. In fact I sometimes enjoy watching the good guys lose and the bad guys win, as long as the characters show some depth to them, which is why ASoIaF never really got me all that depressed about it's world.

The natural instinct is to cheer for the good guys and boo the bad, but if the characters are well drawn enough, I sometimes feel drawn towards the bad ones. Not necessarily because I fully empathise with them, though I might, but because they are just interesting to read about. Such as the machiavellian Littlefinger. I quite enjoyed seeing his manipulations unfold in the first few books, even if he caused a lot of bad things to happen to some of the "good" characters. He might not be someone I'd ever want to meet, but very interesting to read about.

I think it ruined me, because before that I used to read the more fairytale type fantasy novels with those idealistic characters and happy endings, and enjoyed them fine. Now I struggle to somewhat as I find them to be tedious and boring and find myself wanting bad things to happen to the "hero". So Martin has pretty much ruined me as far as where he's set the bar for my expectations for characters. I'm more cynical about it I guess.

I think BS treads a fine line, as I said, it's clear he wants his novels to head down the prototypical fantasy good v evil tale, but seems to put in just enough depth with the characters and story to be a little bit more than that.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Dund

[spacemonkey]

Sanderson certainly seems very set on there being good and evil in the world, which I disagree with and goes against the world Martin tries to portray. Everyone has the ability to do good and bad things, but no one is inherently evil or inherently good like BS seems to push. At least he has some (seemingly) gray characters in his books though to somewhat offset this.

I've never really liked reading about idealists. They often seem more full of themselves and arrogant/self righteous than the tyrants in novels. I love anti heroes. It just seems more natural and real for me for someone to be human and not necessarily want to hurt others, but ultimately be on the lookout for number 1. None of this I will give my life for the people crap. In fact I sometimes enjoy watching the good guys lose and the bad guys win, as long as the characters show some depth to them, which is why ASoIaF never really got me all that depressed about it's world.

The natural instinct is to cheer for the good guys and boo the bad, but if the characters are well drawn enough, I sometimes feel drawn towards the bad ones. Not necessarily because I fully empathise with them, though I might, but because they are just interesting to read about. Such as the machiavellian Littlefinger. I quite enjoyed seeing his manipulations unfold in the first few books, even if he caused a lot of bad things to happen to some of the "good" characters. He might not be someone I'd ever want to meet, but very interesting to read about.

I think it ruined me, because before that I used to read the more fairytale type fantasy novels with those idealistic characters and happy endings, and enjoyed them fine. Now I struggle to somewhat as I find them to be tedious and boring and find myself wanting bad things to happen to the "hero". So Martin has pretty much ruined me as far as where he's set the bar for my expectations for characters. I'm more cynical about it I guess.

I think BS treads a fine line, as I said, it's clear he wants his novels to head down the prototypical fantasy good v evil tale, but seems to put in just enough depth with the characters and story to be a little bit more than that.

I disagree with a few points here. I'm not going to go into detail, because that would take forever. Suffice it to say that Sanderson's villains tend to be very complex characters, usually just as much, if not more so, than the protagonists. There are many different ways to depict shades of morality, and the one Sanderson generally follows is that most people are not truly evil. Most people in Sanderson's works feel justified in doing what they do. Even Ruin isn't really evil. Destroying things is just what he does. This is of course, not such a good thing from the perspective of the people he kills. I wouldn't say that this is any less realistic than the darker tone of Martin's story.

It isn't necessary to make someone cynical to have them be a 'realistic' character. Idealism is just as viable as cynicism. At it's simplest, an idealist is someone who believes that people are good, and a cynic is someone who believes that people are bad. This has nothing to do with how heroic or villainous the character is. A murderous zealot can be an idealist, and the most morally upright people can be cynics. For me, how much I enjoy a series has less to do with how cynical or idealistic it is than with how those viewpoints conflict with events in the story.

And I would say that Brandon's works are not totally idealistic. Note how Elend decides that he cannot always follow an absolute set of principles in the real world. He never gives up his ethics, but he accepts that sometimes he has to choose between the lesser of two evils. Despite this, he still retains his basic faith in humanity. Elend would be a much less compelling character if he abandoned his morality.

Edited January 18, 2012 by spacemonkey

[Dund]

I disagree with a few points here. I'm not going to go into detail, because that would take forever. Suffice it to say that Sanderson's villains tend to be very complex characters, usually just as much, if not more so, than the protagonists. There are many different ways to depict shades of morality, and the one Sanderson generally follows is that most people are not truly evil. Most people in Sanderson's works feel justified in doing what they do. Even Ruin isn't really evil. Destroying things is just what he does. This is of course, not such a good thing from the perspective of the people he kills. I wouldn't say that this is any less realistic than the darker tone of Martin's story.

It isn't necessary to make someone cynical to have them be a 'realistic' character. Idealism is just as viable as cynicism. At it's simplest, an idealist is someone who believes that people are good, and a cynic is someone who believes that people are bad. This has nothing to do with how heroic or villainous the character is. A murderous zealot can be an idealist, and the most morally upright people can be cynics. For me, how much I enjoy a series has less to do with how cynical or idealistic it is than with how those viewpoints conflict with events in the story.

And I would say that Brandon's works are not totally idealistic. Note how Elend decides that he cannot always follow an absolute set of principles in the real world. He never gives up his ethics, but he accepts that sometimes he has to choose between the lesser of two evils. Despite this, he still retains his basic faith in humanity. Elend would be a much less compelling character if he abandoned his morality.

Well I haven't finished Well of Ascension yet, so I'm not 100% certain if you are referring to things that haven't happened or not. I also never said BS works are totally idealistic. I said they are heavily bent towards it.

For example at the moment I seem to be bombarded with a lot of referencing to how good people are, or how bad they are. Sazed and Vin with their internal monologues seem to be continually going on about it, as does Tindwyl it just seems to be a part of the story. Elend is a good man, Straff is a bad evil man. And on it goes. Thankfully the characters are drawn a bit better than that, as you say, but that kind of contradicts what I'm reading. Like BS created some complex interesting characters, but couldn't help throwing in a bit of idealistic black and white thinking into the story to contradict it.

I already explained I feel like Sanderson gives his characters more complexity than most of the stock standard fantasy that is out there. I've ultimately been praising him, with just some minor criticisms. He toes a line, he uses highly idealistic characters in a setting where they probably shouldn't succeed, giving them more complexity than usual, but he still uses plot devices to advance characters IMO in somewhat unbelievable ways that cheat a little bit so that said characters develop to where they can succeed while keeping their ideals in tact.

In any case a lot of my previous post was directed at the majority of fantasy in general and not just at Mr Sanderson's work.

Oh and this has nothing to do with anything, but I just thought of it. Shouldn't Mistborn and/or Tineyes be getting it on quite a bit? I would think having that particular allomantic power would be particularly useful in the old sackaroony. I hazard a guess using the power in that way has never even crossed Brandon's mind...