Eri

Is Honor really dead?

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Child of Tanavast, child of Honor, child of one long departed...

Unless my English is worse than I thought, departed means gone somewhere, not dead. OK, dying is going somewhere too, but this choice of words seem a bit strange.

Sure, Honor(probably...) tells Dalinar he's dead and Honor doesn't lie (probably)... but you can't record a message while dead, as far as I know. So when he says “Odium has killed me”, I suppose that he means something like “Odium is just knocking to my door with a bazooka and I have nowhere to hide”. And we don't know what happened next.

Maybe Odium just send him somewhere far away or imprisoned him? Why would Odium do that, you'll ask. If he, for example, had some deal with Tanavast, which sain that Tanavast will not intervene in some things, it would be stupid to kill him, because the next Shard-guy wouldn't be bound by that deal and Tanavast, as a long-time Shard-guy would keep his word.

Sure, Odium could just have Splintered Honor... or could he? We don't know what happened on Sel, we don't know is Splintering easy, safe and always possible. We don't even know if Rayse did it himself – he might have just manipulated Aona and Skai to anihilate each other and then do something to their Shards. In general – it might not have been possible with Honor.

So the question is: Is it actually confirmed (by Sanderson) that Tanavast is dead?

Of course it is possible that the person speaking of him as “long departed” simply doesn't know his exact fate, which is being dead.

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In English "the Departed" can mean "the dead" and while not absolute, usually the term departed is associated with the deceased.

I have no clue if it has been confirmed or not that Honor is dead.

Also, remember Honor is not a person. Tanavast could have died, Honor could have been shattered, both, or neither could have happened.

Edited by tipbruley
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[

Sure, Honor(probably...) tells Dalinar he's dead and Honor doesn't lie (probably)... but you can't record a message while dead, as far as I know. So when he says “Odium has killed me”, I suppose that he means something like “Odium is just knocking to my door with a bazooka and I have nowhere to hide”. And we don't know what happened next.

Honor could also have set up this journal with a little instruction tag on it saying "Play these messages if Odium kills me." :P

Edited by ReaderAt2046
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Back before we actually knew what Shard the Almighty held there was a speculation thread about it. It's been confirmed by Brandon as Honor now, so the thread has died, but Peter mentioned that there was another clue in the chapter titles.

You might want to check out the title of chapter 2. Ought to answer your question.

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In English "the Departed" can mean "the dead" and while not absolute, usually the term departed is associated with the deceased.

I have no clue if it has been confirmed or not that Honor is dead.

Also, remember Honor is not a person. Tanavast could have died, Honor could have been shattered, both, or neither could have happened.

Yup. Like the movie. The Departed.

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i dont think honour could lie even if he wanted to

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I can imagine a culture where lying in certain situaton is considered the only honorable choice and a very noble thing. Not sure if such a culture had really existed, samurai-era Japan maybe? But I don't know enough about it to be sure.

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Samurai-era Japan and Honor... maybe Tanavast committed some form of Shard harakiri so that Odium couldn't splinter his shard and someone else could take up the fight against Odium and the desolations.

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Well, on the subject of lying, Syl, at first, doesn't seem to understand the concept of lying or why someone would like, though later, Kaladin mentions that there are cirumstances where it's okay to lie, and maybe even the right thing to do (like telling his men they can escape when it seems extremely unlikely), and Syl seems to understand that. So, Syl being honorspren, I would think that those kinds of lies would be okay for Honor, but not outright deception.

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Honor could also have set up this journal with a little instruction tag on it saying "Play these messages if Odium kills me." tongue.gif

I think this is the right idea. Honor didn't say "i'm probably dead," or "as i make this record, Odium is about to shoot me in the face with a bazooka." he  says "I am dead. Odium has killed me." He seems fairly certain, and, as dead people don't write messages, that means the journal was designed to play after his death.

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I agree, Honor is dead. What I don't know is if death is a permanent state, or if it can be reversed. Is Honor Humpty Dumpty? Or can all the kings men put him back together again? Honorspren still exist, which may or may not mean anything. Roshar is out of balance and this imbalance needs to be corrected in order to end the cycle of desolations. I'm assuming that it will also bring an end to the weekly hurricanes they refer to as Highstorms. If so, that is a post worthy of it's own thread. What would magic be like on Roshar without Highstorms.

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Well, how dead Honor is depends on what you mean by "dead" and "Honor". If you simply mean that Honor is Splintered, then we know that Splintered Shards can reform. If you're talking about Tanavast in the other hand, he's pretty dead and I doubt we'll be seeing more of him in anywhere beside the visions.

I disagree that the return of Honor would end the highstorms. Even back before the Last Desolation, long before Honor died, Dalinar's visions showed him people living in a lait and all the life still as being prepped for highstorms (curnips and lurnips). We don't even know for sure if Honor is the only Shard responsible for highstorms. Ruin and Preservation both had a touch on the mists.

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Sure, Odium could just have Splintered Honor... or could he?

So the question is: Is it actually confirmed (by Sanderson) that Tanavast is dead?

There is word of Brandon here that Honor is splintered. 

 

 

Interview: Apr 17th, 2012

Google+ Hangout (Verbatim)
Andrea Digney

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone really knows their stuff.

 

My understanding is that Tanavast (holder of Honor) would have died somewhere in the process.  I'll see if I can find a quote. 

 

Edit: This is the best I found.  I think it implies that Tanavast is dead.

 

Interview: 2011  
ATHEISTCANUCK

But the person who held the Shard Honor was originally named Tanavast?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. You wiggled it out of me. That was the name of the original holder of the Shard Honor

 

BTW, the interviews database is a good resource. 

Edited by hoser
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In my conversation with Brandon 08/08/13 while we were discussing The Nightwatcher and Shards in Rosharan he said "Honor is dead."

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psst: both of the questions in hoser's post were me.......

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psst: both of the questions in hoser's post were me.......

So you had the name Andrea Digney until you briefly held the Shard named ATHEISTCANUCK before you became the sliver known as CrazyRioter?  But by reputation you are a Shard.  I'm so confused...

 

Seriously, though, good job with the questions!

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I didn't actually expect to get an answer other then "RAFO" for the second one!

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We were all watching you on the hangout and talking in the chatroom and everyone thought it was RAFO-bait. We were all through the roof. :D

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Well, how dead Honor is depends on what you mean by "dead" and "Honor". If you simply mean that Honor is Splintered, then we know that Splintered Shards can reform.

 

They can?  Is this a Word of Brandon piece of information?

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They can and it is:

 

Quote

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=948

Mason Wheeler

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

 

 

And here is a quote from Brandon in the recent Reddit AMA:

 

Q: "If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation or would he drop the shard Harmony?"

 

BS: "Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)"

Edited by Shardlet
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They can and it is:

And here is a quote from Brandon in the recent Reddit AMA:

BS: "Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)"

 

Makes me think of a new game guessing what different combinations of shards would be called.  I'm betting if Odium had picked up Devotion the resulting combined shard would be called "Meh".  :P

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Makes me think of a new game guessing what different combinations of shards would be called.  I'm betting if Odium had picked up Devotion the resulting combined shard would be called "Meh".  :P

Pretty sure that combo is called the 'ex-wife' (or ex husband if you prefer)

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Makes me think of a new game guessing what different combinations of shards would be called.  I'm betting if Odium had picked up Devotion the resulting combined shard would be called "Meh".  :P

 

 

Pretty sure that combo is called the 'ex-wife' (or ex husband if you prefer)

Excellent!

 

Devotion+Dominion: Codependence

Devotion+Ruin: Decay

Devotion+Preservation: Stagnation

Honor+Dominion: Hierarchy

Honor+Odium: Hypocrisy

Odium+Preservation: Resentment

Odium+Ruin: Horror

Odium+Endowment: Revenge

Cultivation+Endowment: Evolution

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Nice. How about a few more?

 

Cultivation+Odium: Corruption

 

Dominion+Ruin: Conquest

 

Honor+Preservation: Defense

 

Odium+Dominion: Dystopia

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I have been watching carefully for proof that shattering must kill the person holding a shard. I haven't found any.

We know from Scadrial that the holder can die without shattering the shard (Vin, Ati and Leras), and we know from Sel that when Odium splinters a shard he can also kill the holders. However, I think you can splinter a shard without killing the holder.

In "the letter" Hoid mentioned that Devotion and Dominion were splintered, then clarified that the holders were dead. Now it's possible that he is just a big fan of redundancy, but the way it is worded hints that you can splinter a shard but leave the holder alive afterward. Based on the prologue of WOK it seems Odium ended up "bound" on Roshar. This imprisonment prevented him from his goal of shattering both Honor and Cultivation and killing their holders. He managed to splinter Honor, but did he kill Tanavast at the same time? Brandon has said that the holder of Cultivation is still alive. My personal theory is that Honor was splintered before the first Desolation, but Tanavast died much later.

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