Parshendi hybrids

[JcStoneDog]

I have not seen this before so if its not new and all my ideas are old then sorry

 

but it raises a lot of interesting questions.

 

WoB from his Goodread Q&A on 8/13/2014.

 

Question : Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?

 

Answer:  Brandon Sanderson Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)

 

 

1.  Assuming Sanderson is using 'races' here to refer to human races on Roshar then why do only some races have Parshendi blood?

 

2. Is it possible for Humans and Parshendi to interbreed naturally? or did the Shards play a role in the crossing of the species?

 

3. Did the 'stratagem' that the Bondsmiths used some how change some of the Parshendi to human?

 

4. Can Horneaters and other hybrids learn to attract spren that change their physical shape/nature?    

[kari-no-sugata]

1.  Assuming Sanderson is using 'races' here to refer to human races on Roshar then why do only some races have Parshendi blood?

 

2. Is it possible for Humans and Parshendi to interbreed naturally? or did the Shards play a role in the crossing of the species?

 

3. Did the 'stratagem' that the Bondsmiths used some how change some of the Parshendi to human?

 

4. Can Horneaters and other hybrids learn to attract spren that change their physical shape/nature?    

 

This is the first we've heard (AFAIK) that Horneaters have Parshendi blood. My first thought was "ick" but after further reflection I'm guessing this is something the Shards did. I'm not sure what other peoples' theories on this are but I suspect that Parshendi were on Roshar before "normal" humans though I also suspect that they were created by Honor/Cultivation based on humans. Maybe the first humans to arrive on Roshar were pretty normal and then Honor/Cultivation created some of the more unusual human races (Horneaters etc) by combining humans with different Parshendi forms.

 

I sometimes felt that Brandon brought up Shallan's partial Horneater ancestry too often to be natural and that he was foreshadowing something. I guess this means she has a tiny amount of Parshendi blood in her too. I wonder if its just her (among the main characters) or if Radiants in general tend to have a tiny amount of Parshendi blood.

 

I've no idea what you're referring to in your Bondsmiths question.

 

Everyone can attract spren but if Horneaters can have different forms with spren that maybe that could explain Rock's tale of how the Horneaters were hated for being too strong (though it could also be that they were persecuted for having Parshendi blood). So maybe the Horneaters we see today are the equivalent of "dullform"?

[maxal]

Personally, when I read that WoB yesterday, my first thoughts were natural interbreeding.

 

After all, the Parshendi look similar enough to humans their genomes may allow natural reproduction. I was thus thinking that, once upon a time, both race were living in close proximity. There may even have been some villages or some countries were both lived together, on the same ground, in peace and as is usually the case in such instances, mixed couples started to spreed. Give it a few generation and the distinction between both races would dwindle....

 

Parshendi do have emotions, it is not so far-fetched to imagine a Parshendi in mateform falling for a regular human... or vice-versa.

 

I never thought the shards had anything to do with it... Races mixes all the time... Anthropology have found evidences Neanderthal men have interbred with the Homo Sapiens. The analogy is a good one, I think, as the Parshendi makes me think of Neanderthal: physically stronger, but not as advanced technologically speaking and dumber in appearances (we know they aren't, but the regular human on Roshar do have that perception).

[Quiver]

This makes me all the more interested in Eshonai's book, to be honest. If I recall correctly, Rock was one of the bridgemen who was glowing at the end of Words of Radiance, and there's been some speculation about whether or not it's possible for Parshendi to become knight Radients... which makes me wonder if Rock's ability to become a squire is confirmation that Parshendi can become Radiants (or at least squires), or if his squirehood is because of his human blood.

 

I also wonder, do the Horneaters know about their connection to Parshendi? I can't remember Rock ever mentionning it, and what his attitude to Rlain/Shen was like...

I really need to reread SA one of these days...

[Moogle]

Parshendi have different colored blood. Kaladin remarks at their completely different physiology. They seem like they evolved naturally on Roshar, since every other creature there bonds with spren as an adaptation mechanism. There is no way I'd accept natural interbreeding with humans unless there was magic involved. They're just way too different biologically.

 

And it's not like the Horneaters are 50/50 human/listener. The list of physical changes to them that I know of are: changed back molars, more rocky nails, the ability to see spren, and red hair. It seems like the Horneaters just got a few of the more useful listener traits that would help them survive - they don't have dark/red skin, for example.

 

The Horneaters have a story where they asked the gods for help. Perhaps the gods helped more than Rock let on in the story.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Moogle

[JcStoneDog]

I also feel that this adds weight to the theory that humans are not native to Roshar. That Cultivation or Honor changed some of the human remnant that escaped to Roshar that they could better adapt to the new world.

[Zea mays]

Parshendi have different colored blood. Kaladin remarks at their completely different physiology. They seem like they evolved naturally on Roshar, since every other creature there bonds with spren as an adaptation mechanism. There is no way I'd accept natural interbreeding with humans unless there was magic involved. They're just way too different biologically.

 

This.

I have wondered before this about hybridization between Roshar 'humans' and parshendi, and the enormous difference in physiology seem like a giant barrier to that. My surmise is that as far back as the last desolation there could have been some sort of parshendi 'human' form. What king of spern would cause that?   What if... what if a parshendi bonded with a spren that already had a nahel connection to a radiant? Can that happen?

 

 

[i do not believe humans can interbreed with parshmen slaves - if they could, there would be a lot of hybrid persons walking around and everyone would know about it. The parshendi have been isolated from the rest of the planet's population until Dalinar came across that hunting party in the unclamed hill some seven years ago. Ergo, whatever hybridization happened, it happened very very long ago. Long enough to be forgotten]

[Dellexe]

Herdazians are Partshendi too, I think. I think I recall something about them sharing an ancestry with the Horneaters and they have dull, slate coloured fingernails too. Not sure about the teeth. They can't see Spren though, so it's probably more diluted than Horneaters.

[Savanorn]

Personally, when I read that WoB yesterday, my first thoughts were natural interbreeding.

 

After all, the Parshendi look similar enough to humans their genomes may allow natural reproduction. I was thus thinking that, once upon a time, both race were living in close proximity. There may even have been some villages or some countries were both lived together, on the same ground, in peace and as is usually the case in such instances, mixed couples started to spreed. Give it a few generation and the distinction between both races would dwindle....

 

Parshendi do have emotions, it is not so far-fetched to imagine a Parshendi in mateform falling for a regular human... or vice-versa.

 

I never thought the shards had anything to do with it... Races mixes all the time... Anthropology have found evidences Neanderthal men have interbred with the Homo Sapiens. The analogy is a good one, I think, as the Parshendi makes me think of Neanderthal: physically stronger, but not as advanced technologically speaking and dumber in appearances (we know they aren't, but the regular human on Roshar do have that perception).

 

 

I actually think a human and a Mateform would work fine, the way I see it, a Mateform Parshendi is classically (in the Alethi style) attractive. They also have hair, I don't believe they have any armour and they're quite hedonistic.   There's also the militia boy method of reproduction. I mean, Parshendi and humans have fought a lot, I don't know if the Parshendi always had cities and population centres...but I'd think so. 

 

There's also the possibility of Shardic intervention.

 

I'd actually be curious if the Parshendi of current Roshar are pureblooded or not. 

[Arondell]

Parshendi have different colored blood. Kaladin remarks at their completely different physiology. They seem like they evolved naturally on Roshar, since every other creature there bonds with spren as an adaptation mechanism. There is no way I'd accept natural interbreeding with humans unless there was magic involved. They're just way too different biologically.

 

 

Total agreement on this.  Seems pretty obvious the parshendi are the result of an entirely different ecosystem.  No way they could possibly interbreed with humans without very sophisticated external intervention.   You would have a better chance of a human and an oyster interbreeding.

[Savanorn]

Total agreement on this.  Seems pretty obvious the parshendi are the result of an entirely different ecosystem.  No way they could possibly interbreed with humans without very sophisticated external intervention.   You would have a better chance of a human and an oyster interbreeding.

 

I think that is a bit far. 

 

I mean, Humans and Parshendi mare both creations of Adonalsium; you'd figure some degree of compatibility could have been engineered.

Further, it is possible the physiological changes that occur to Parshendi happen because of a Spiritual binding process that then changes their physical form. Kaladin, it should be noted, observed a form made for war. I got the impression from Eshonai's chapters that a warrior form, or a workform for that matter, don't feel sexual desire and have much more limited 'equipment.'

 

Basically, given that the 'thing' of the Listeners is a wide range of forms with purposes, I'd not be surprised if their mateform (or even another specialised form) could mate with anything. 

 

We actually don't know much at all about Listener physiology. Does their blood have it's colour and smell from a functional aspect, or do they still have a standard iron base? I'm pretty sure they have a similar cardiovascular system if nothing else, but even then, do we know how many chromosomes they have?  

 

As I said, Shardic Intervention is possible, but it need not be the only approach. Before WoB, I wouldn't have thought they could interbreed at all with people. 

 

I invite disagreement, of course. 

Edited August 15, 2014 by Savanorn

[Moogle]

We actually don't know much at all about Listener physiology. Does their blood have it's colour and smell from a functional aspect, or do they still have a standard iron base? I'm pretty sure they have a similar cardiovascular system if nothing else, but even then, do we know how many chromosomes they have?  

 

Well, there is this quote from WoK:

Parshendi blood was orange, and it smelled like mold. Yet their faces—marbled black or white and red—looked so human.

 

I was going to write a response regarding physiology, but it is clear from the books that the listeners look human, which is not something we'd expect a priori if we thought the listeners were an entirely different organism. It's possible that the listeners were once human (explaining their human appearance) or else created from a human template.

 

Listener culture is not inhuman, and Eshonai's PoV was rather close to human.

 

I'm thinking on everything more and I'm thinking maybe they could interbreed. It's still ridiculous to me because of the huge changes made to listeners (a child of a human and listener should have a completely nonfunctional circulatory system, or at least a substandard one), but maybe listeners are actually biologically human but with their spiritwebs altered - sort of like koloss or Inquisitors.

 

In this case, their physical DNA is the same, but spiritual DNA causes the differences in their phenotype.

 

If Horneaters are mostly human (they seem to be) with maybe 1% listener blood, where are the 50/50s? I would be genuinely surprised if there wasn't some depraved lighteyes abusing his parshmen somewhere, so I guess mateform is required... how do normal parshmen breed again? They can't take mateform.

 

I don't like the idea of hybrids at all, but we'll see. There's bound to be more WoBs at some point.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Moogle

[navybrandt]

What if the Parshendi are the 50/50 hybrid and some other creature is the 100% pure Rosharin creature.  Wild speculation here, but for example, maybe the chasmfiends are 100% pure.  This obviously rules out natural breeding.

[navybrandt]

Herdazians are Partshendi too, I think. I think I recall something about them sharing an ancestry with the Horneaters and they have dull, slate coloured fingernails too. Not sure about the teeth. They can't see Spren though, so it's probably more diluted than Horneaters.

Upvote for the word "Partshendi."  I love it!

[Arondell]

I think that is a bit far. 

 

I mean, Humans and Parshendi mare both creations of Adonalsium; you'd figure some degree of compatibility could have been engineered.

Further, it is possible the physiological changes that occur to Parshendi happen because of a Spiritual binding process that then changes their physical form. Kaladin, it should be noted, observed a form made for war. I got the impression from Eshonai's chapters that a warrior form, or a workform for that matter, don't feel sexual desire and have much more limited 'equipment.'

 

Basically, given that the 'thing' of the Listeners is a wide range of forms with purposes, I'd not be surprised if their mateform (or even another specialised form) could mate with anything. 

 

We actually don't know much at all about Listener physiology. Does their blood have it's colour and smell from a functional aspect, or do they still have a standard iron base? I'm pretty sure they have a similar cardiovascular system if nothing else, but even then, do we know how many chromosomes they have?  

 

As I said, Shardic Intervention is possible, but it need not be the only approach. Before WoB, I wouldn't have thought they could interbreed at all with people. 

 

I invite disagreement, of course. 

 

For the time being I'm going with the idea of genetic engineering.  Specific parshendi gene sequences spliced into the human genome, probably by cultivation, to better adapt humans to Roshare.  There is precedence for that kind of tinkering in the Cosmere and in my opinion falls under the general intent of cultivation to have done so.

 

Direct interbreeding pretty much makes my suspension of disbelief get up, pack its suitcase, and walk out the door.

[Left]

 

I'm thinking on everything more and I'm thinking maybe they could interbreed. It's still ridiculous to me because of the huge changes made to listeners (a child of a human and listener should have a completely nonfunctional circulatory system, or at least a substandard one), but maybe listeners are actually biologically human but with their spiritwebs altered - sort of like koloss or Inquisitors.

 

In this case, their physical DNA is the same, but spiritual DNA causes the differences in their phenotype

 

I really like this idea, makes the most sense out of the stuff I've seen posted.

[Robot Aztec]

 

Parshendi have different colored blood. Kaladin remarks at their completely different physiology. They seem like they evolved naturally on Roshar, since every other creature there bonds with spren as an adaptation mechanism. There is no way I'd accept natural interbreeding with humans unless there was magic involved. They're just way too different biologically.

 

my autn had green blood becuz she took too many hheadache meds it is real in people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfhemoglobinemia so tati s not a problem

[Savanorn]

For the time being I'm going with the idea of genetic engineering.  Specific parshendi gene sequences spliced into the human genome, probably by cultivation, to better adapt humans to Roshare.  There is precedence for that kind of tinkering in the Cosmere and in my opinion falls under the general intent of cultivation to have done so.

 

Direct interbreeding pretty much makes my suspension of disbelief get up, pack its suitcase, and walk out the door.

 

 

Why?

 

Well, there is this quote from WoK:

 

I was going to write a response regarding physiology, but it is clear from the books that the listeners look human, which is not something we'd expect a priori if we thought the listeners were an entirely different organism. It's possible that the listeners were once human (explaining their human appearance) or else created from a human template.

 

Listener culture is not inhuman, and Eshonai's PoV was rather close to human.

 

I'm thinking on everything more and I'm thinking maybe they could interbreed. It's still ridiculous to me because of the huge changes made to listeners (a child of a human and listener should have a completely nonfunctional circulatory system, or at least a substandard one), but maybe listeners are actually biologically human but with their spiritwebs altered - sort of like koloss or Inquisitors.

 

In this case, their physical DNA is the same, but spiritual DNA causes the differences in their phenotype.

 

If Horneaters are mostly human (they seem to be) with maybe 1% listener blood, where are the 50/50s? I would be genuinely surprised if there wasn't some depraved lighteyes abusing his parshmen somewhere, so I guess mateform is required... how do normal parshmen breed again? They can't take mateform.

 

I don't like the idea of hybrids at all, but we'll see. There's bound to be more WoBs at some point.

 

 

I think we're on the same page now. That's really my point, the Listeners maybe be different but they're not necessarily that different. 

 

I'm not actually sure about Parshmen breeding, I assume they must, but maybe that's a result of being in slaveform (which is no form) like, I'd assume there'd be some control measure so a population of Parshmen that couldn't read highstorms wouldn't just die out. 

Edited August 16, 2014 by Savanorn

[JcStoneDog]

 

I'm not actually sure about Parshmen breeding, I assume they must, but maybe that's a result of being in slaveform (which is no form) like, I'd assume there'd be some control measure so a population of Parshmen that couldn't read highstorms wouldn't just die out. 

 

I was looking for the quote in WoK but I remember it being alluded to that masters basically have to force them to breed.

[Arondell]

Why?

 

 

 

Because biologically it wouldn't work.  Significant gross differences in the color of the blood is evidence enough that there are major differences in biochemistry between humans and parshendi.   It would take major tinkering on the genetic level to permit some kind of hybrid to show up.  Fortunately Roshare has the shard of Cultivation in residence which provides a ready to hand god like entity that would likely take an interest and have the ability to implement genetic tinkering.

[kari-no-sugata]

Regarding the "human" races on Roshar in general, I have sometimes wondered about their diversity since it's not the sort of thing that is likely to occur naturally. Since we know that Shards have been active on Roshar since ancient times it does seem pretty likely that one or more Shards have created these variations deliberately - it does seem like the sort of thing that Cultivation would do.

 

Incidentally, I wonder what Cultivation thought of the Desolations: while they were highly destructive to culture when occurring it also means that all sorts of interesting new cultures can form when they end. Creative destruction, much?

 

So anyway, I could easily imagine Cultivation magically mixing up new races by combining bits of existing ones. This seems far more likely than multiple long-term hybrid species occurring by random chance - it's certainly possible for hybrid children to be born of two different species but that doesn't lead to a new long term species by itself, even if the child is healthy and fertile. You would need an isolated population of hybrid-only children to create a long term persistent new species (short term is a different matter).

 

I certainly agree that the known differences between Parshendi and humans would likely make viable hybrid offspring impossible - having a fundamentally different blood chemistry is a huge huge problem. Hybrids between distinct species definitely occur on Earth but healthy and fertile hybrids are much rarer and almost always only occur between species with a recent common ancestor - generally within 2m years for large mammals. For reference, the last common ancestor for modern humans and Neanderthals was 350-400k years ago.

 

Talking of human/Neanderthal hybrids, it would probably be safe to consider estimates of common genes between them to be preliminary and likely subject to large revisions. It's possible that convergent evolution (ie local adaptation) and genetic drift could explain some of the similarities. Though I don't think any experts say it's impossible. It should be noted that the "common" genes are mostly clustered in specific areas, indicating that they provided a selective advantage (and that the commonality could have been much higher in the past). Another interesting aspect of this is that the only hybrid children with descendants that survived to this day were between Neanderthal males and human females. This is not to say that there weren't hybrid children between Neanderthal females and human males, just that none of them had descendants surviving to this day.

[Savanorn]

I was looking for the quote in WoK but I remember it being alluded to that masters basically have to force them to breed.

 

I had no memory of this, of course, it would make sense. 

 

Because biologically it wouldn't work.  Significant gross differences in the color of the blood is evidence enough that there are major differences in biochemistry between humans and parshendi.   It would take major tinkering on the genetic level to permit some kind of hybrid to show up.  Fortunately Roshare has the shard of Cultivation in residence which provides a ready to hand god like entity that would likely take an interest and have the ability to implement genetic tinkering.

 

So, first of all, I'm not arguing that in the real world two vastly differences species ought to be able to interbreed, so if you think I'm going to argue molecular biology, genetics or biochemistry in application to the real world, we can both walk away from this right now.  Secondly, I don't want to sound harsh, if this is where you draw your line, that's fine, I just happen to disagree. 

 

tl;dr, it's a book, allowances can be made given the outright divine origin of life. 

 

So, colour of blood and bone are not sufficient basis. Further, for all you or I know, listeners have the same number of chromosomes and blood-related genes are entirely, or functionally, recessive to human genes. Or, indeed, whatever makes Parshendi so resilient might just give horneaters strong teeth. It's certainly not something you'd think would occur by random chance, but...well...it isn't.   

I'd also like to throw out that we don't know if listeners are just humans plus bits, or if they're actually entirely different. Like, maybe listeners have entirely normal blood plus a few yellowish enzymes, or to give a more interesting explanation, bonus 'spren cells' that facilitate bonding and retaining the essence of a spren. These smell like mold, it'd make sense, greatshells also have moldy-smelling (albeit different coloured) blood and hold spren in their bodies. Even putting aside a physiological basis for spiritual factors for a second though, I could imagine the listeners were just humans that had been altered to better suit Roshar whilst keeping the core structure.   

 The Listeners are different, but they're also surprisingly human considering Roshar's other native life. It's also telling that their default -Parshman- form is pretty much human (that is, without funky bones or chitin.)  From what we've seen, the listeners think like humans and, I may be getting this wrong, but wasn't Kaladin able to target their arteries whilst fighting them based on his knowledge of human physiology? We also know that female listeners have breasts, and males have beards.

 

I get your argument, especially because things like blood plasma and bone construction are incredibly basic and structural things to change, but considering so much of the cosmere is literally the work of god even before the Shards come into it, I don't think it's unreasonable.  Adonalsium perhaps  wished for the capacity for them (human and listener) to interbreed, there doesn't necessarily have to be any post-shattering tinkering. For all we know, listeners have magic genetics that accommodate not only a changing, say, Spiritual bond with a spren, but can change in response to physical fertilisation of an egg.

 

Haha, they're both a sort of bonding, and that's what listeners do, right? 

 

End of the day, why do you need Shards to intervene when you already have a god that (presumably) made human, listener, Aimian and (presumably) more. They're already designed rather than evolved.

 

I'm actually surprised this ended up being a longer and more interesting thought, either way, thanks. 

Edited August 16, 2014 by Savanorn

[Arondell]

Part of my objection is that in the past Mr. Sanderson has said that he likes his magic systems to work with normal physical laws.   They overlay normal physical laws not replace them and you can see that in most of the stuff he has written in the Cosmere.  It is easy to point out times where he fudged that a bit but on the whole he has done a good job following that guideline.

 

Allowing viable offspring from direct interbreeding between two different species without magical intervention pretty much discards that particular guideline.  There is precedence in the Cosmere for genetic modification and/or complete re-engineering of life so I'm not objecting to the concept that Horneaters have some parshendi DNA.  It is how it got there that I'm picky about.

[Arondell]

Incidentally, I wonder what Cultivation thought of the Desolations: while they were highly destructive to culture when occurring it also means that all sorts of interesting new cultures can form when they end. Creative destruction, much?

 

I vaguely recall a comment by Mr. Sanderson that of all the shards Cultivation was the one that could best get along with Ruin.

[dyring]

Mateform is caused by a spren bonding with the Parshendi, just like every form except the base.

 

So a spren specializing in reproduction then, it doesent seem unresonable that this is magical enough to handle the biological differences. So there IS magic involved;)

Edited August 17, 2014 by dyring