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Intent Meshing: How Magic Systems Arise


Moogle

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[lifts up floorboard] I give this theory a 10/10. No, that has nothing to do with the fact I helped develop it. Nope.

I'm not convinced the Old Magic is actually a magic system at all. All we've heard about it has been related to Nightwatcher's curses/boons (enlighten me if I'm way off base, my memory is very fuzzy here), and nothing about it actually being practiced by humans or any other physical being. So I don't think the Nightwatcher should be a concern for the theory. Still, that leaves us no closer to the actual third magic. Fabrials, because they seem like a HCO system and we've seen a ton of them? Old style fabrials (or their creation)? Horneater lagers? Magic fish?

I agree that it's hard to predict systems with this theory except in the most clear-cut of cases. In general, all intent-based speculation tends to be very subject to interpretation. To me, it seems very natural for Cultivation to meld with both, and for Honor to be opposed with Odium. But I could also see Honor being compatible with Odium as a sort of "Hate those who are dishonourable/evildoers". What we've seen so far of the KR's general mentality doesn't really back that up, but just using the theory of Intent-Meshing alone could very easily go either way.

Porridge out. Back to lurking. [/drops floorboard]

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Great theory! Upvotes for both of you. The only things I immediately notice that I disagree with are it seems that you are mixing magic systems with the Spren, the Nightwatcher isn't actually cultivation, just Rosharians(?) interpretation of her given life in the form of a Spren, though re-reading your post this might be a misinterpretation. Also, just because these combinations are possible, does not mean one or another will have to happen, there are a lot of variables we know nothing about.

 

For example, just because C+O is possible does not mean it is an absolute, maybe C, due to some deep, mathematical formula devised by Brandon became more encompassing to Roshar than the combination of C+O and the Old Magic is purely Cultivation. Yes, multiple Shards being on a planet must cause the making/influencing of Magic Systems, however just because a Shard is compatible to mix with another Shard doesn't mean it will.

 

My reasoning behind this is that Brandon, in some of your quotes, said a Magic system will conform itself to a planets existing Magic System (not anything close to an exact quote, but hey, im lazy) so their must be certain precepts that a Magic System must meet in order to be established on a planet. You pointed out that there are 7 possible combinations, so why would not all of them come into existence unless there is some reason that they cannot do so.

 

Whether the reason is the Planet will not allow it or that the Shards must agree or some other reason I have not the slightest idea. Personally I like this theory a lot and it could really explain a lot about whats going on in the Cosmere, I just want to put in my 2 cents because if you can expound upon it I think it would be perfect, even if it does get smashed to bits by Brandon later on.

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  • 11 months later...

"Devotion and Dominon are Intents that work well together, so they meshed and formed only the one system. (The planet, interestingly enough, decided to make a bunch of sub-systems for different areas though.)"

 

I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

I'm not saying that your theory is incorrect, its just harder to say anything definite about Dev & Dom's meshing, because we don't know what they were like before they were shattered by Odium. 

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"Devotion and Dominon are Intents that work well together, so they meshed and formed only the one system. (The planet, interestingly enough, decided to make a bunch of sub-systems for different areas though.)"

 

I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

I'm not saying that your theory is incorrect, its just harder to say anything definite about Dev & Dom's meshing, because we don't know what they were like before they were shattered by Odium. 

 

Given the way magic works in the Cosmere, I don't think there's much evidence to say the Selish magic used to be different. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, and if so please correct me, but we already have a magic system which has not changed since the Shard's death: Surgebinding. Even under the possibility that Surgebinding is a combination between two or three Shards, Honor's death seems to have had zero effect on the workings of the magic. Why should Devotion and Dominion be any different?

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I'm pretty sure that Sel's magic was very different a long time ago.  Odium came to Sel and shattered both of the shards, and then the shards meshed together to form what we now know as Elantrian magics.  This is very different than what happened on Scadrial (R & P weren't shattered and then meshed together).

 

While you are correct that something changed, at least in part (though the WoB is paraphrased...), I do think Surgebinding proves Splintering does not necessarily have to do anything to magic systems, as Blaze brings up.

 

Note that, from the perspective of the book Elantris, people had been using AonDor for centuries (the creation of Elantris itself as Aon Rao should imply as much, and Elantris was built hundreds if not thousands of years prior). The Splintering happened an unclear time before Elantris, but given the chasm was a direct result of the Splintering, I should think that the Splintering shouldn't have finished more than a century before. (Sarene says her Seon had served her family for centuries, so the Splintering probably started around/before then?)

 

So the Splintering probably shouldn't have created AonDor at least, and I find it incredibly unlikely AonDor was the only system there pre-Splintering.

Edited by Moogle
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Good points. I remembered reading a WoB that mentioned how they "meshed" together after they splintered, and that might be why shadesmar is kinda funky around Sel. I wish i could find that quote.

I wish you could too because a quote saying they meshed together would be an immensely interesting detail.

 

 I think there is WoB that AonDor did not exist before the splintering or at least what Elantrian's do was not possible before.

 

 

However is this the quote you were thinking of?

 

 

 

WINDRUNNER
Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?
BRANDON SANDERSON
The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.
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I don't know if you can accurately say that the number of magic systems is dependent on the number of Shards invested in a planet. My assumption has long been that the nature of magic depends largely on the local SDNA of the world and it's inhabitants. So, it's how the SDNA interacts with the investiture offered by a Shard that determines what magic systems look like.

 

So, my theory is that Roshar already had spren and surges before the arrival of the 3 shards, but that these came directly from Adonalsium's investiture. After the shattering, there may or may not have been residual investiture left, so the magic maybe became dormant or diminished until the arrival of new shards, which became the new power sources for surges, fabrials, etc.

 

On the other hand, these existing magics may have had to split into different branches, different systems, to work with these new sources of investiture.

 

Scadrial is an interesting case, because it was created directly by Ruin and Preservation, and probably has SDNA that is tied more closely to these shards than the other shardworlds. 

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I wish you could too because a quote saying they meshed together would be an immensely interesting detail.

 

 I think there is WoB that AonDor did not exist before the splintering or at least what Elantrian's do was not possible before.

 

 

However is this the quote you were thinking of?

That's not the exact quote I'm thinking of, but I found another discussion where the person is making the same claim that I am, but they also cannot find the quote.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3377-theory-devotion-dominion-and-convergence/

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I swear there is WoB Brian saying that shard existing on a planet with a second shard always creates a 3rd magic system that is a combination of both shards powers. I can't remember where I found it at and he RAFO'ed my reddit question asking weather a shard had to be on the same planet or just in the same solar system for that interaction to occur. 

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