Ironeyes

Theory: Austre is Endowment

37 posts in this topic

This idea has been churning around my brain since I found out that the shard in Warbreaker is Endowment.

The theory: The Idrian god Austre is really the shard Endowment, under a different name. The Idrian religion has, however, overestimated Endowment's role in the universe by turning him/her into The Creator, like the way Scradrial religions have done with Ruin and Preservation.

The proof:

Warbreaker p. 155

"Austre was the true God of men, the one who sent the Returned."

Given that we know or assume Endowment to be the being that causes Returned to exist, this sound plausible.

p. 307

“I know,” she said. “It must seem silly to you. But, well, we know he’s there. When I see something beautiful in nature—when I look at the mountains, with their wildflowers growing in patterns that are somehow more right than a man could have planted—I know. Beauty is real. That’s what reminds me of Austre. Plus, we’ve got the Returned—including the First Returned, Vo. He had the Five Visions before he died, and they must have come from somewhere.”

This is a little weak, but it does link the Returned to Austre.

p. 284

"Austre gave all men talents."

Change the wording here with one synonym, and it says, "Austre endowed all men with talents"

p. 307

“[Austre]’s not a person,” Siri said. “He’s more of a force. You know, the thing that watches over all people, who punishes those who don’t do what is right and who blesses those who are worthy.”

This coincides with the fact that shards and their holders don't reside in the physical realm.

p. 567

The void had taken [Lightsong], but something had sent him back. He’d Returned.

Because he’d seen war and destruction.

He remembered the other side. And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity.

To Return.

This sounds just like the stuff being talked about in this discussion, about who can Return.

p. 462

"Even your religion teaches about Commands—it says that Austre is the one who Commands the Returned to come back.”

This is a direct link between the Idrian teachings about Austre and the magic system stemming from Endowment.

I'm pretty sure that is enough to call the theory true. What do the rest of you think?

Edited to decrease cockiness.

Edited by Ironeyes
3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is quite sure. I think it's quite resonable for a Shardworld to have religion based on some (mis)interpretations of actual Shards and their interactions. Roshar seems to have it, Scadrial had it (Mistborn) / has it (AoL), I don't remember what about Sel.

So yes, the being referred to as Austre is probably (based on) Endownment. The question is, how much is it misinterpreted?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's safe to assume that the 5 visions of Vo were from his viewing of the future when Endowment was giving him the choice to Return, so those are certainly linked to the Shard. I think everything else (the clothes, the color stuff, etc.) was either from interpretation of those visions, or a reaction to fear of Awakening (which is why they don't like color).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is pretty much a given. Shardholders essentially are gods on their homeworlds.

Vin was divine when she took in the mists.

Sazed is divine after taking both shards.

I imagine you could trace the father religion of Shu Dereth back to either a shardholder or a prophet used by the shardholder.

Austere as you have pointed out has powers attributed to other shardholders. Remember the idea that colors and breath were sacrilege came after the royal houses split. It is more as much a cultural idea as a religious one.

I have no doubt that the messages that Dalinar gets were left by a shardholder. It has been a while since I read that one, but it might even be overtly stated.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WoK spoilers in reply to Aethling:

They most certainly were - by Honor, in fact, also known as The Almighty.

As to your theory, Ironeyes, I think that's definitely a solid possibility. Of course, it also helps that Austre is perceived as male and we no longer think Endowment is female. ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When did that happen? I thought we were still guessing?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we no longer think Endowment is female. ;)

We don't? blink.gif

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems weird that Endowment would be male. I'm not saying that endowment has to be female though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems weird that Endowment would be male. I'm not saying that endowment has to be female though.

Just out of curiosity, what parts of what we've seen about this world make Endowment 'weird' as a male?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that the magic is based off of shiny colors gathered from a magic flower, a city with plenty of restaurants, those with a Splinter of Endowment have Body Image correlation, and the fact that we see the world through mostly female eyes gives some support for the Female Endowment. Plus, it seems to me that girls give a little easier than guys do, and since that's what Endowment is....

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of curiosity, what parts of what we've seen about this world make Endowment 'weird' as a male?

Its just my personal feeling on the matter, not actually saying that Endowment has to be female.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always thought of Endowment as female, but I don't have a good reason to support it. It just seems natural.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough, I was just trying to figure out how one gender was weirder than another for an otherworldly being we've never even had direct contact with in the books. XD I guess I don't put that much importance on it. The shards could all be "It"s for all I seem to care.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that the shards themselves are non-gender entities, but their holders keep their original genders.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine you could trace the father religion of Shu Dereth back to either a shardholder or a prophet used by the shardholder.

We know that Shu Dereth is being controlled by Skaze, which are presumably splinters of Dominion.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know that Shu Dereth is being controlled by Skaze, which are presumably splinters of Dominion.

You can trace it back, but it didn't begin with the Skaze, no matter how much influence they have now. Both Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth, came from a common religion Shu-Keseg. They are based of different interpretations of one Jindoeese man's teachings. This man preached unity, but Derethi and Korathi disagree on how to achieve that unity. The Derethi believe it to be unity of mind, and domination. The Korathi believe that unity should be achieved through unity in love. Interesting enough, the different interpretations depict the Shards of the race they most likely created.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just finished Warbreaker and am a little confused. Where do they talk about Austre being a Shard? I haven't read WoK yet, so it may be in there.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth, came from a common religion Shu-Keseg. They are based of different interpretations of one Jindoeese man's teachings. This man preached unity, but Derethi and Korathi disagree on how to achieve that unity. The Derethi believe it to be unity of mind, and domination. The Korathi believe that unity should be achieved through unity in love. Interesting enough, the different interpretations depict the Shards of the race they most likely created.

Interesting, I didn't remembered that. The original philosophy behind Shu-Dereth and -Korath looks similar enough to Sazed and how he became Harmony by holding Preservation and Ruin. Maybe the guy that created Shu-Keseg once held both Devotion and Dominion, becoming Unity.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just finished Warbreaker and am a little confused. Where do they talk about Austre being a Shard? I haven't read WoK yet, so it may be in there.

They don't. Ironeyes and many others (including myself to a point), believe that the Idrian concept of Austre is mostly driven by forgotten knowledge of the ancient Shards. Sort of like how the Terris people believed in Preservation and Ruin, or the Roshar people believe in the Almighty (who is Honor). So it makes sense that Austre, who the Idrians believe is the one that brings people back to be Returned, is the same as Endowment, who is the Voice that offers Lightsong the opportunity to return.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay. That makes a lot more sense. Now that I understand, I think Austre is Endowment.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to admit that Lightsong was my favorite character throughout the book, and that I always thought he was right. And that Blushweaver was wrong to do as she did. But they are said to be 'Returned' for a 'reason', and would it be contradictory or not if the reason that Lightsong was Returned was in fact to grant Susebron his tongue, and in doing so suppress the war that Blushweaver foolishly created, but was Returned to do so?

So Lightsong was Returned to help stop Blushweaver who, Returned to do so, inadvertently started the war?

Maybe Endowment wanted people to restore faith in Awakening, the Returned, and the Royal family, and for everyone to just get along?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blushweaver most likely returned to prevent the war that would have been if events had gone differently. Remember in WoK during one of Dalinar's visions, the 'narrator' talks about how seeing the future gets harder the further away that future is? What she returned to prevent didn't happen the way she saw it might.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brandon discusses this in an annotation

What did Blushweaver achieve? In fact, she Returned in the first place to be involved in this ending as well. One thing to note about the Returned coming back is that they do see the future, but when they Return, they aren't guaranteed to be able to change anything. Before her Return, Blushweaver was a powerful merchant in the city, and very well known. She was assassinated after denouncing a group of dye merchants she'd worked with for their deceptive and criminal practices. Her testimony ended with them in jail, but it got her killed. That's how she earned the title of Blushweaver the Honest (which, if you'll remember, she eventually got changed to Blushweaver the Beautiful).

She Returned because she didn't want T'Telir to fall to the invaders she saw taking it after Bluefingers and the others caused their revolt. That was why she gathered the armies. While she didn't succeed in her quest as well as Lightsong did, she did help out quite a bit. I think she's pleased, on the other side, with how things turned out.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What, with her throat cut? I'd be pleased too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.