Shallan's Necklace

[Yoshi]

Hi there! First time poster, but long time fan of all of you on the forum.

 

In one of the Shallan flashback chapters, the one where she buys Jushu back, the man collecting her debt said something interesting. Shallan's necklace was made of aluminum, which can only be soulcast. There's been some WOB where he's said that aluminum has some weird effects on magic systems all over the cosmere. My theory is that the aluminum necklace supressed or killed Shallan's bond with Pattern. Shallan's father, influenced by Odium, didn't want another radiant around to ruin his plans, so he gave her the necklace to try to sever the bond.

 

That's just my take on it. Thoughts?

[Argent]

It's possible, I suppose, but everything we have seen - including accounts from Shallan and Pattern - indicates that it was the trauma of Shallan's mother's death that led to Shallan suppressing her bond. The evidence for this is this is, I think, overwhelming.

[Zea mays]

There might still be something up with aluminum. Hrm, maybe it doesn't affect the spren, but it inhibits stormlight uptake?

We will have to see what effect (if any) losing his mother's necklace will have on Adolin.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Zea mays

[maxal]

There might still be something up with aluminum. Hrm, maybe it doesn't affect the spren, but it inhibits stormlight uptake?

We will have to see what effect (if any) losing his mother's necklace will have on Adolin.

 

It is an interesting theory however, we do have a WoB concerning Adolin's mother necklace. Someone asked if losing it had any significance and the answer was: "To Adolin only". I concluded from this the necklace's value was probably purely sentimental.

 

Evidences points towards Shallan necklace not having caused the breaking of her bond.

 

I dunno if the necklaces could have an impact on the ability to draw stormlight... The WoB does not exclude it. We never knew if Adolin found out where he had lost his necklace, but we know he was carrying it on him pretty much all the time prior to this event.

[Argent]

I dunno if the necklaces could have an impact on the ability to draw stormlight... The WoB does not exclude it. We never knew if Adolin found out where he had lost his necklace, but we know he was carrying it on him pretty much all the time prior to this event.

 

Do we? I was under the impression that he only took it up before duels, as a part of his ritual.

[maxal]

Do we? I was under the impression that he only took it up before duels, as a part of his ritual.

 

Well, he leaves it on his night table, so I figured he must have been carrying it with him regularly. If not, then why would it be on his night table or his bed end table (he mentions one of the two as to where he may have forgotten it)? If it was a thing he only carried for the occasional duels, then he would most likely have put it in a drawer or a safe place, not on his bed table.... Stuff you put on your night table is stuff you pick up every day, so I assumed he must have been carrying it most of the time.

 

Agree I have no further evidence. I am assuming he has it with him most of the time, which would fit with his character.

[Argent]

Fair enough. I just interpreted it differently - he was getting ready, took the necklace from wherever he kept it stashed, left it on the night table for some reason (needed his hands or whatever), and forgot about it.

[maxal]

Fair enough. I just interpreted it differently - he was getting ready, took the necklace from wherever he kept it stashed, left it on the night table for some reason (needed his hands or whatever), and forgot about it.

 

You could be right. I read it as he went to bed last night, put the necklace on his night table as he always does and forgot to take it in the morning or unconsciously drop it on his way to the dueling ground.

[theBolda]

In Chapter 102 'Celebrant' Kaladin sees,

"And sitting in a locked, glass-topped box, a long thin silvery chain."

Selling for a thousand broams of stormlight.

 

Just wondering if this was her necklace. Also aluminum seems to work as a barrier preventing stormlight from going through, but not around it. Nightbloods sheath, the room in Kolinar for soulcasting, etc.

[CrazyRioter]

The description of the chain seems to indicate something larger than a necklace.

[+ZincAboutIt]

@theBolda Are you asking if it's Shallan's necklace or Adolin's mothers? Because Shallan's necklace was described as having thick silvery links, not being long and thin iirc. I'll admit though, it's been a while since I've read WoR.

[Yoshi]

I'm kind of glad he did revive it, it was cool to see this in my inbox today. 

It's still a bit puzzling to me that he went out of his way to introduce it as an aluminum necklace though. Could it be that the necklace stopped her from breathing in stormlight kind of like how the aluminum sheets prevented spanreeds in Kholinar?

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Yoshi said:

I'm kind of glad he did revive it, it was cool to see this in my inbox today. 

It's still a bit puzzling to me that he went out of his way to introduce it as an aluminum necklace though. Could it be that the necklace stopped her from breathing in stormlight kind of like how the aluminum sheets prevented spanreeds in Kholinar?

It certainly could potentially be something more, but for myself I think it is because aluminum is expensive on Roshar, so a necklace of it would be worth a lot. It is incredibly difficult to mine, and after something is soulcasted into aluminum, it can never be soulcasted again. So aluminum is highly prized for its rarity and uniqueness. For me it would be the equivalency of on Earth saying she tried to use a gold or platinum necklace to buy back her brother. 

[insert_anagram_here]

Nice find in Celebrant! @theBolda

Actually, I think that Shallan's necklace is still in her possession (or at least in her Veden home) after killing her father with it.

Theory:

Spoiler

I'm guessing that Sanderson went out of his way to mention that it was made of aluminum because Lin wouldn't have been able to die if it wasn't. He seemed to start recovering from the poison before she used it to choke him.

 

 

[Calderis]

I'm still curious if it even is aluminum. 

No one recognized the mysterious metal that Wit delivered to Vivenna to hide the grain soulcaster. Taravangian speaks of a legendary metal that could block shardblades... 

And the one mention we actually have of aluminum says that it can only be created by Soulcasting but never mentions anything of its inability to be altered by soulcasters... And then we have this. 

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I'm intrigued by aluminum, especially the fact that it can only be found by Soulcasting on Roshar. So, how was it discovered in the first place?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

...Did I say you can only get it through Soulcasting?

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

In the Shallan flashbacks, she has the pendant.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Don't take what she says at 100% truth.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

If they can make aluminum, they should know that it can't be soulcast into anything else... 

Either what they call aluminum isn't... Or there's a bit of an oversight. 

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I'm still curious if it even is aluminum. 

No one recognized the mysterious metal that Wit delivered to Vivenna to hide the grain soulcaster. Taravangian speaks of a legendary metal that could block shardblades... 

And the one mention we actually have of aluminum says that it can only be created by Soulcasting but never mentions anything of its inability to be altered by soulcasters... And then we have this. 

If they can make aluminum, they should know that it can't be soulcast into anything else... 

Well, the Can Only Be Soulcast statement was from a merchant/criminal who was appraising it for trade, and the actual nature and mechanics of Soulcasting are a fairly guarded secret in most places, and very often tangled in their religious mystique.  It's possible that the average person thinks it can only be Soulcast because it's just that rare (even if it's sometimes found in meteorites, etc) while being kept intentionally ignorant of how it limits Soulcasting. 

The more glaring bit of ignorance to me is that if it can be made with soulcasting AND can block the otherwise unblockable Realmic Cutting of Shardblades, that fact should be known, even if only to the upper echelons of society, your generals and kings and leading scholars (ie. the Kholins) in exactly the same way that Half-shards were a Very Big Deal and considered a state secret.  I just cant figure out why there wouldnt be some corp of elite Anti-Shardbearer solders with suits of Armor that were being soulcast into aluminum. 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Either what they call aluminum isn't... Or there's a bit of an oversight. 

Maybe it's just a bit too impure to actually function realmically?  The difference between Aluminum and Duralumin is only a 4% copper impurity in the cosmere, and up to 9% here where we still call it Aluminum (if "Aircraft" aluminum or "Hardened" aluminum or some such). 

[insert_anagram_here]

Quote

The man looking over the daggers slid them both back in their sheaths. “They are masterworks,” he admitted. “I’d value them at twenty emerald broams.”“The necklace?” Shallan asked. “Simple, but of aluminum, which can only be made by Soulcasting,” the man said to his boss. “Ten emerald.”“Together half what your brother owes,” said the man in the carriage.

So you are basically dismissing what's said inbook for what was said in a WoB.

So, how would you explain the mention of aluminum? Was this merchant someone of specialised knowledge? Are Shallan memories potentially false? How would Shallan even know what the word 'aluminum' is?

[Calderis]

Which is why I said an oversight. 

It's obviously stated in the book. It still doesn't fit. It doesn't mesh with the information presented, not only with the WoB, but in OB. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

43 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, the Can Only Be Soulcast statement was from a merchant/criminal who was appraising it for trade, and the actual nature and mechanics of Soulcasting are a fairly guarded secret in most places, and very often tangled in their religious mystique.  It's possible that the average person thinks it can only be Soulcast because it's just that rare (even if it's sometimes found in meteorites, etc) while being kept intentionally ignorant of how it limits Soulcasting. 

The more glaring bit of ignorance to me is that if it can be made with soulcasting AND can block the otherwise unblockable Realmic Cutting of Shardblades, that fact should be known, even if only to the upper echelons of society, your generals and kings and leading scholars (ie. the Kholins) in exactly the same way that Half-shards were a Very Big Deal and considered a state secret.  I just cant figure out why there wouldnt be some corp of elite Anti-Shardbearer solders with suits of Armor that were being soulcast into aluminum. 

Maybe it's just a bit too impure to actually function realmically?  The difference between Aluminum and Duralumin is only a 4% copper impurity in the cosmere, and up to 9% here where we still call it Aluminum (if "Aircraft" aluminum or "Hardened" aluminum or some such). 

I am not a metalurgist, but if I recall correctly, isn't pure aluminum too soft? I think I recall WoB where people ask if a shardblade could cut aluminum, and Brandon responded that it could cut it, but not by phasing through. That to keep in mind, it is still a sword. So making armor out of wood, clay or what have you, and soulcasting it into pure aluminum without alloying it with something to strengthen it could potentially still result with you getting run through. But again, a lot of this is based on recollection, so I will need to dig. 

[Calderis]

@Quantus And no, Aluminum doesn't have to be 100% pure to have it's negation effect... But we don't know the cutoff. 

The "Aluminum guns" in Era 2 are actually made of a scandium Alloy (less than 1% scandium to aluminum) which is real and used in gun frames... But not the barrels or chambers. 

Cosmere aluminum is, by all indications, a fair bit stronger than real aluminum. Nightblood's sheath, though dull can be rammed through a torso and block blades without being visibly marred.

And the illustrious Peter Ahlstrom, in a discussion with @Ravioli, said that the guns are an Alloy of "aluminum, scandium and handwavium" after much consternation from Ravi. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Calderis

[Gasper]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus And no, Aluminum doesn't have to be 100% pure to have it's negation effect... But we don't know the cutoff. 

The "Aluminum guns" in Era 2 are actually made of a scandium Alloy (less than 1% scandium to aluminum) which is real and used in gun frames... But not the barrels or chambers. 

Cosmere aluminum is, by all indications, a fair bit stronger than real aluminum. Nightblood's sheath, though dull can be rammed through a torso and block blades without being visibly marred.

And the illustrious Peter Ahlstrom, in a discussion with @Ravioli, said that the guns are an Alloy of "aluminum, scandium and handwavium" after much consternation from Ravi. 

Aluminum is actually strong compared to something like wood. I have seen some aluminum spikes that withstand some pretty nasty forces and not deform. At me work we use an Aluminum block to reshape steel sheets that have rather large dents in them. If Nightbloods sheath was even 14-10 gauge, it would still be light and strong enough to block a sword, skewer a person, and most other light duty killing. Also, the sheath may be dull, but it is still likely pointed. Humans are soft and fleshy, and any object driven with significant force with go through a human. 

Aluminum also has a aluminum "field" in the cosmere. That is why a Rioter standing beneath a guy with a foil hat will not be able to influence him. Impure alloys have lesser but still significant effects that are similar to aluminum. There is likely an alloy that would replicate Scadrian aluminum alloys used in allomantically resistant weapons. How ever, the Scadrain guns likely wear out faster than Terran guns because of the environment produced by the gun being fired. That and the mercury based primers in Terran ammo might eat away at the Aluminum alloy in the guns, leading to catastrophic failure  of the weapon in combat. 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Gasper

[Quantus]

44 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am not a metalurgist, but if I recall correctly, isn't pure aluminum too soft? I think I recall WoB where people ask if a shardblade could cut aluminum, and Brandon responded that it could cut it, but not by phasing through. That to keep in mind, it is still a sword. So making armor out of wood, clay or what have you, and soulcasting it into pure aluminum without alloying it with something to strengthen it could potentially still result with you getting run through. But again, a lot of this is based on recollection, so I will need to dig. 

No, that's entirely true, but it brings the fight back into the realm of normal material physics. An aluminum sword wouldnt work, but thick plates would be able to potentially stop a swing or two, which is a huge improvement over the situation otherwise where even a tiny nick bypasses everything and kills you (or your limbs, etc). it would force the shardbearer to hammer against it more, or at least change Stances to something more conducive to sawing through metal, and some Shardblade shapes are going to be better tan others at that (the same way some swords are better than others depending on the style of armor they are going against).  In other words it prevents glancing blows from being anywhere near as effective, even if strong and direct strikes and thrusts would still have a chance to get through (at which point the targets soul is still getting sliced)

And on the other side of the arms race, I strongly suspect that an oversized aluminum Mallet (ideally with a heavier core, iron or lead maybe) would be superior against Plate than other metals, and the huge warhammer is a tactic we know they use.

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Quantus And no, Aluminum doesn't have to be 100% pure to have it's negation effect... But we don't know the cutoff. 

That's fair, I was using Duralumin's threshold specifically as the cuttoff since the metallic arts consider it a different metal, and if Im not mistaken it looses the negation effect, correct?

20 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The "Aluminum guns" in Era 2 are actually made of a scandium Alloy (less than 1% scandium to aluminum) which is real and used in gun frames... But not the barrels or chambers. 

Cosmere aluminum is, by all indications, a fair bit stronger than real aluminum. Nightblood's sheath, though dull can be rammed through a torso and block blades without being visibly marred.

And the illustrious Peter Ahlstrom, in a discussion with @Ravioli, said that the guns are an Alloy of "aluminum, scandium and handwavium" after much consternation from Ravi. 

One thing to consider in the weirdness of Nightblood, this WOB implies that the sheath's capabilities change once the blade gets exposed, and specifically mentions the fact that the sheath can kill (even by touch) as an example.  Which as I type this, I think that may be the only instance outside of the Metallic arts that Aluminum can channel an Investiture effect. 

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood

Nightblood's name, by the way, is supposed to sound kind of like the names of the Returned. I played with various different ways for his powers to manifest. I liked the idea of him driving those who hold him to kill anyone nearby. It seemed to work with the concepts that have come before—a kind of unholy, sentient mix of Stormbringer and the One Ring.

The strangest thing about him is the idea that his form isn't that important. The sheath is like a binding for him, keeping his power contained. So drawing him out isn't like drawing a regular weapon, but rather an unleashing of a creature who has been kept chained.

Once that creature is unleashed, he becomes a weapon—even if he's unleashed only a little bit. The sheath itself turns into a weapon, twisting those around it. You don't need to stab someone with Nightblood to kill them; smashing them on the back with the sheath works just as well. It will crunch bones, but beyond that, merely touching them with the sheath when the smoke is leaking can be deadly.

Warbreaker Annotations (Feb. 7, 2011)

 

 

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

No, that's entirely true, but it brings the fight back into the realm of normal material physics. An aluminum sword wouldnt work, but thick plates would be able to potentially stop a swing or two, which is a huge improvement over the situation otherwise where even a tiny nick bypasses everything and kills you (or your limbs, etc). it would force the shardbearer to hammer against it more, or at least change Stances to something more conducive to sawing through metal, and some Shardblade shapes are going to be better tan others at that (the same way some swords are better than others depending on the style of armor they are going against).  In other words it prevents glancing blows from being anywhere near as effective, even if strong and direct strikes and thrusts would still have a chance to get through (at which point the targets soul is still getting sliced)

And on the other side of the arms race, I strongly suspect that an oversized aluminum Mallet (ideally with a heavier core, iron or lead maybe) would be superior against Plate than other metals, and the huge warhammer is a tactic we know they use.

That's fair, I was using Duralumin's threshold specifically as the cuttoff since the metallic arts consider it a different metal, and if Im not mistaken it looses the negation effect, correct?

One thing to consider in the weirdness of Nightblood, this WOB implies that the sheath's capabilities change once the blade gets exposed, and specifically mentions the fact that the sheath can kill (even by touch) as an example.  Which as I type this, I think that may be the only instance outside of the Metallic arts that Aluminum can channel an Investiture effect. 

 

 

True true. The only other thing I could think of is using soulcasters is expensive (Elhokar uses his control over them to tax his highprinces for instance), and I cannot recall how prevalent or accessible  amethysts are. So potentially maybe they would be unable to mass produce armor in that fashion? Though as you said, the ability to deter a shardblade, even momentarily would be a powerful one. At this point I am just throwing thoughts out there to see what sticks. 

Interesting point about the warhammer.

I have to look but I feel like I read in a WoB that Roshar was not very far in metallurgy because of their fabrials. That the question came up due to the lack of guns and combustion engines on Roshar. Either that or I am recalling in error, and Brandon said Scadrial was ahead in their metallurgy because of the interest in allomancy/feruchemy/hemalurgy. I will dig and see if I can find it.

[insert_anagram_here]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which is why I said an oversight. 

It's obviously stated in the book. It still doesn't fit. It doesn't mesh with the information presented, not only with the WoB, but in OB. 

What I found strange with that merchant was that he let Shallan keep the necklace. Why would anyone do that if it was as valuable as he said it was?

So I think this points that this merchant may not be as 'clueless' as he wanted to appear. Maybe that necklace was indeed made of aluminum, this merchant was able to recognize it, but what he said about 'Soulcasting made it' was a lie to hide the fact of how he knew that?

I mean, come on, Lin giving Shallan that necklace trying to keep spren away or make even her 'undetectable' to protect her would make sense after she killed her mother with Pattern. And it would make even more sense if he was a Surgebinder, or at least a very 'aware' Soulcaster (the poison couldn't kill him). It doesn't necessarily mean he Soulcasted that necklace, he could've got it from Mraize or any other Ghostblood.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

True true. The only other thing I could think of is using soulcasters is expensive (Elhokar uses his control over them to tax his highprinces for instance), and I cannot recall how prevalent or accessible  amethysts are. So potentially maybe they would be unable to mass produce armor in that fashion? Though as you said, the ability to deter a shardblade, even momentarily would be a powerful one. At this point I am just throwing thoughts out there to see what sticks. 

Same, Im just spitballing here.  On the value chart amethyst are 2nd tier along with Sapphire, one step below the Food Producing Emeralds.  That actually seems odd to me, while I can understand why being able to Soulcast Metals would be in high demand (even absent Aluminum as a factor) Im less clear on why Gas and air would be considered so valuable, unless they are needed to keep the air in some of these deep stone fortresses breathable?

 

Quote

Interesting point about the warhammer.

I have to look but I feel like I read in a WoB that Roshar was not very far in metallurgy because of their fabrials. That the question came up due to the lack of guns and combustion engines on Roshar. Either that or I am recalling in error, and Brandon said Scadrial was ahead in their metallurgy because of the interest in allomancy/feruchemy/hemalurgy. I will dig and see if I can find it.

They are definitely behind in the sciences in General thanks to Soulcasters acting as a short-cut/crutch.  Though they also have had several developmental setbacks, both the Desolations that kept resetting them to the Bronze age, and more recently what sounds to me like a bit of a Vorinistic Dark Age. 

 

EDIT:  On the topic of the threshold at which the Cosmere treats an alumium alloy as something other than aluminum, Im curious if it makes any difference what the other metal involved is, and whether it's already active in the Metallic Arts.  As @Calderis pointed out, the Era2 guns are Scandium alloyed at less than 1%, vs the Duralumin that's at 4% but is also alloyed with Copper. Does an alloy of something that wasnt one of the Metallic Arts metals (and/or silver, that's apparently weird in its own right) change the threshold, causing less interference with Aluminum and whatever it's doing to block Investiture?

Edited February 15, 2019 by Quantus