Who Has Taln's Blade?

[Pathfinder]

When the two cases of transportation happen are Jasnah herself and the Oathgate, I think miniaturizing that sort of thing may be tougher than it sounds . . .

The oathgate was a means for a whole population to reach the radiants hence the size. That alone does not preclude the possibility of a more compact form.

 

But Occam's Razor would imply, clearly to me at least, that all in all it's far more likely that he's the one that has reclaimed his sword, just fitting with several mysterious aspects of the story, his own apparent character and actions and Lift's belief that he was "awesome" too.

Actually by Occam's Razor if we know he has access to a fabrial that replicates a surge that can bring people almost back to life, then a logical leap would be have access to other fabrials with other abiltiies. Yes he could use his honorblade to fly around, which would be the same time the assassin in white is flying around and being spotted. So no one would notice another glowing individual flying across the continent? Not saying its impossible, just in my opinion less likely, since he may have to also cart around his skybreakers who may not be radiants yet. Though that is up to debate

[IndigoAjah]

We know the Shin are missing an honour blade

This would belong to the herald that had it, meaning in Nin's view, from our interaction with him, he would be the legal owner of his blade and entitled to bring it back

We suspect from the opinion of another surgebinder (who thus far have a good success rate at recognising each other) he can surge-bind, and know that this gift can come from honour blades and is suggested, albeit not strongly, that this is how heralds get their surgebinding. There is current debate elsewhere that heralds may be unable to bind spren at all. Certainly we see no hints that any of them are Radiants

We know he has a shardblade of some type

We know that he has acquired other shardblades

He could have a second Fabrial but I do not see that having 1 logically leads to having more

We have seen a transportation Fabrial- it was huge. It could be that he is using that one, though likely he would be seen if that's how he travelled whilst others were going the other way. A smaller Fabrial capable of this may exist but there is no evidence to suggest it might, whereas we KNOW that 2 honourblades can allow control over gravity and 2 transportation of some sort.

A transportation Fabrial would not logically facilitate Nin to find Szeth post flight and save him in time after he was killed- this would be a very fortuitous coincidence if he were not following the two flying surgebinders. Though he does seem to have a way to find surgebinders

The sky is vast- the chances of someone not knowing what they were looking for seeing someone who knew what they were doing and didn't want to be seen would be, automatically, slim. Especially as Nin wears all black, so any travel at night- sorted

It just seems so so so much more likely

[IndigoAjah]

Next up he sends Szeth to wipe out the Stone Shamans with Nightblood and take back the remaining honourblades

[Pathfinder]

We know the Shin are missing an honour blade

This would belong to the herald that had it, meaning in Nin's view, from our interaction with him, he would be the legal owner of his blade and entitled to bring it back

We suspect from the opinion of another surgebinder (who thus far have a good success rate at recognising each other) he can surge-bind, and know that this gift can come from honour blades and is suggested, albeit not strongly, that this is how heralds get their surgebinding. There is current debate elsewhere that heralds may be unable to bind spren at all. Certainly we see no hints that any of them are Radiants

We know he has a shardblade of some type

We know that he has acquired other shardblades

He could have a second Fabrial but I do not see that having 1 logically leads to having more

We have seen a transportation Fabrial- it was huge. It could be that he is using that one, though likely he would be seen if that's how he travelled whilst others were going the other way. A smaller Fabrial capable of this may exist but there is no evidence to suggest it might, whereas we KNOW that 2 honourblades can allow control over gravity and 2 transportation of some sort.

A transportation Fabrial would not logically facilitate Nin to find Szeth post flight and save him in time after he was killed- this would be a very fortuitous coincidence if he were not following the two flying surgebinders. Though he does seem to have a way to find surgebinders

The sky is vast- the chances of someone not knowing what they were looking for seeing someone who knew what they were doing and didn't want to be seen would be, automatically, slim. Especially as Nin wears all black, so any travel at night- sorted

It just seems so so so much more likely

I am not disputing that the blade he had could be his honorblade. What I am however saying is the amount of hoops he would have to go through to conceal himself flying across the nation. Not just around the shattered plains which is very sparsly populated like Kaladin, but across fully populated cities would be too much to make sense. Just because we saw that the one means of transportation was huge does not mean every means of transportation has to be huge. With Lift he had the little creature that sucks away stormlight. With Szeth he had a fabrial that does regrowth. Who knows else he has in his bag of tricks? Flying around does not help him locate Szeth any better than transportation. Kal was flying and he lost Szeth despite seeing the direction he was falling. The general populace doesn't have to know what they are looking for. All you need is one of the thousands of people in the cities across the country. In fact, I will reply further in a moment, I am going to track Nin's trail on a map and see what he would fly over, if he used the surge as you posit while pursuing surgebinders. 

[IndigoAjah]

It doesn't matter what he flies over! He's a man sized object, going over populations far less dense than Earth's. If he flies high enough, he would literally be out of the vision of any human, and with stormlight he doesn't need to worry about breathing or cold! Then as for Kaladin and Szeth, all he has to do is fly high enough and he can just watch over them. Avoiding sight with the ability to fly would be ridiculously easy, effortlessly so, especially when the thing that powers your flight protects you against the disadvantages of flying higher. And you're possibly quasi-immortal anyway...

Edited January 19, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[IndigoAjah]

And people see a dark object in the sky? Probably a bird. It ALWAYS matters that you know what you are looking for, human beings see and have always seen and will always see what they are expecting

[IndigoAjah]

(Btw, I don't mean to sound wound up or patronising, and sorry if I do. I'm just passionate mid-debate)

[Pathfinder]

It doesn't matter what he flies over! He's a man sized object, going over populations far less dense than Earth's. If he flies high enough, he would literally be out of the vision of any human, and with stormlight he doesn't need to worry about breathing or cold! Then as for Kaladin and Szeth, all he has to do is fly high enough and he can just watch over them. Avoiding sight with the ability to fly would be ridiculously easy, effortlessly so, especially when the thing that powers your flight protects you against the disadvantages of flying higher. And you're possibly quasi-immortal anyway...

If he is flying at night because as you said he was wearing black, then the stormlight would make him shine like a star. A star that would be flying from Iri (Ym), over Babatharnam which has the city of Panatham, all of Azir to get to Azimir (Lift), to then fly over Emul, Greater Hexi, and Kharanak to reach the Shattered Plains. For Kal to travel half that from Urithiru to Hearthstone, he expends all of his stormlight (half that referring going just from Azimir to the Shattered Plains by itself). 

 

edit: i understand and appreciate you taking the time to clarify that it is you just being passionate, and not upset. 

 

edit 2: Just a heads up, but it is generally frowned upon to double or triple post. Just hit the edit button, and add the additional information to an existing post. I personally do not care, but moderators have brought it up to other people in other threads. so just sharing info. 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Stormgate]

And people see a dark object in the sky? Probably a bird. It ALWAYS matters that you know what you are looking for, human beings see and have always seen and will always see what they are expecting

There aren't really any flying birds on Roshar, or if there are, they are all in Shinovar. And skyeels look nothing like men. Basically, people would have noticed the fact that a guy was flying through the air.

[Rasarr]

There aren't really any flying birds on Roshar, or if there are, they are all in Shinovar. And skyeels look nothing like men. Basically, people would have noticed the fact that a guy was flying through the air.

 

With no offense meant, aren't you (and others discussing the matter) overestimating the distance at which people can recognize a human silhouette? If he was flying at, say, 3,000 metres (with Stormlight, he wouldn't have trouble breathing), how likely is he to be spotted, let alone recognized as human? Not to mention that "surgebinded" flight seems to be rather fast - at least that's the impression I've gotten. For all we know, Nin could've been noticed by a dozen or more people while flying and they were all "I'd swear I've seen a black spot in the sky just a moment ago... eh, probably just imagined it."

 

And remember that this was still the point where no-one but surgebinders themselves knew that surgebinding is back. People could've seen a human form, then figured that humans can't fly and concluded that they must've mistaken some other shape for a human. We do have problems with that.

[Pathfinder]

With no offense meant, aren't you (and others discussing the matter) overestimating the distance at which people can recognize a human silhouette? If he was flying at, say, 3,000 metres (with Stormlight, he wouldn't have trouble breathing), how likely is he to be spotted, let alone recognized as human? Not to mention that "surgebinded" flight seems to be rather fast - at least that's the impression I've gotten. For all we know, Nin could've been noticed by a dozen or more people while flying and they were all "I'd swear I've seen a black spot in the sky just a moment ago... eh, probably just imagined it."

 

And remember that this was still the point where no-one but surgebinders themselves knew that surgebinding is back. People could've seen a human form, then figured that humans can't fly and concluded that they must've mistaken some other shape for a human. We do have problems with that.

Dalinar's scouts notice Kaladin Flying across the Shattered Plains and he goes high enough that he thought he wouldn't be noticed. They just assume it is the assassin in white, so they are on guard but do not suspect it is him. 

 

By your own reference, the man on the moon is a bunch of people going "oh it looks like that, it must be real", and despite a lot of actual evidence to prove otherwise, some people still believe as such. So now people see a man flying by, yes there will be those that go "naaaaah cant be!", but then there will be, like those people convinced there is a face of a man on the moon, going "it is a man!". Although one instance would be discounted as lunacy, you will have numerous instances in multiple cities, that have absolutely no connection. Then add to the fact that you have multiple secret societies, that although they have varying degrees of knowledge, they do know to look for some weird stuff going on. If Nin wants to prevent a resurgence of knights (or at least that is the prevailing theory), then announcing to the sons of honor, or any other group that hey the heralds have still been around would be detrimental. So I would think he would try to avoid overt displays of his power. Just like when in Azir he sees Lift climbing the wall, but instead of just flying up to the top of the building to catch her, he walks through the whole building to find her. 

[IndigoAjah]

I'll admit as of yet I have no explanation for how he would get enough stormlight to fly that way. That's yhe biggest issue as I see it

I suspect Nin is both better at flying and more careful than Kaladin: and conversely, with Szeth a known flyer, why can't Nin as well as Kaladin be mistaken for him?

[Rasarr]

I stand corrected, then. But for inter-city flight, couldn't Nin fly in some sort of zig-zag motion, avoiding big population centres? It was mentioned upthread already, but Roshar gives the impression of being much less densely populated than Earth, even Earth a few centuries ago. He'd lessen the number of people who could notice him this way, and those witnesses would be so far apart they - or anyone they shared it with - wouldn't get the opportunity to compare notes. 

 

 

I'll admit as of yet I have no explanation for how he would get enough stormlight to fly that way. That's yhe biggest issue as I see it

I suspect Nin is both better at flying and more careful than Kaladin: and conversely, with Szeth a known flyer, why can't Nin as well as Kaladin be mistaken for him?

 

For an out-of-the-blue guess: with Stormlight being basically a form of Investiture, could Nin get it via other magic system? We know already that there was some clandestine contact between Roshar and Nalthis (can't dig up the WoB now, but it basically said that Nightblood was based on Shardblades). Could Nin be doing something like storing Breaths, or keeping them somwhere for later use? No idea where he'd get the Breaths from, though, Rosharans don't have them (do they?).

 

For a less out-of-the-blue and more in-universe guess: he could be carrying a bag of globes with him and "feed" off them in-flight. Perhaps, being thousands of years old, he collected many of those manufactured in a way that lets them keep Stormlight for the longest.

 

As for your second comment, makes sense.

[+Wax]

Is it possible that Taln is actually a title? And the the guy is the last wielder of the title of Taln?

[natc]

We're . . . still talking about Talenel'Elin, Stonesinew, the Herald of War here right? You know, the immortal guy that by Kalak's testimony died in desolations frequently?

Fairly sure Taln is just Taln at this point. Just not whether "the man who calls himself Taln" is Taln. Unless someone is manipulating the memories of the Heralds they seem to recall dying a lot pretty well.

Edited January 20, 2016 by natc

[Pathfinder]

I'll admit as of yet I have no explanation for how he would get enough stormlight to fly that way. That's yhe biggest issue as I see it

I suspect Nin is both better at flying and more careful than Kaladin: and conversely, with Szeth a known flyer, why can't Nin as well as Kaladin be mistaken for him?

I agree like you said that Nin would easily be mistaken as the assassin in white, and I am also sure if he were to fly around, he would attempt to do it in the most clandestine manner, but that would still result in Mr. T for instance going "well szeth was spotted here, and I didn't tell him to do that, so either he found a way to disobey or....". 

 

I stand corrected, then. But for inter-city flight, couldn't Nin fly in some sort of zig-zag motion, avoiding big population centres? It was mentioned upthread already, but Roshar gives the impression of being much less densely populated than Earth, even Earth a few centuries ago. He'd lessen the number of people who could notice him this way, and those witnesses would be so far apart they - or anyone they shared it with - wouldn't get the opportunity to compare notes. 

 

 

 

For an out-of-the-blue guess: with Stormlight being basically a form of Investiture, could Nin get it via other magic system? We know already that there was some clandestine contact between Roshar and Nalthis (can't dig up the WoB now, but it basically said that Nightblood was based on Shardblades). Could Nin be doing something like storing Breaths, or keeping them somwhere for later use? No idea where he'd get the Breaths from, though, Rosharans don't have them (do they?).

 

For a less out-of-the-blue and more in-universe guess: he could be carrying a bag of globes with him and "feed" off them in-flight. Perhaps, being thousands of years old, he collected many of those manufactured in a way that lets them keep Stormlight for the longest.

 

As for your second comment, makes sense.

We know so little about Nin and what the heralds can do, all you said could be right and I am open to the possibility. I was just operating in this case on Occam's Razor. Yes there could be a whole host of things he could do but the only possibilities we do know of for getting from point A to point B quickly on Roshar are transportation or flying using stormlight. In my opinion flying would cause more trouble to accomplish covertly than good, so I feel transportation through shadesmar would be the more likely choice. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Oversleep]

About people noticing Nin flying: I'm sure you have seen at least one airplane. Remember how small it was? Then please recall how huge airplane is compared to a man.
As for people noticing moving light (unlikely as it is): that's what starspren basically are - moving lights in the sky.

[Pathfinder]

About people noticing Nin flying: I'm sure you have seen at least one airplane. Remember how small it was? Then please recall how huge airplane is compared to a man.

As for people noticing moving light (unlikely as it is): that's what starspren basically are - moving lights in the sky.

Consider how many miles up the plane is flying. Yes Kal and Nin do not need to breathe, and maybe the stormlight helps them deal with the pressure change, but at no point does Kal or Szeth fly up that high. Dalinar's scouts were able to see Kal when he was flying high enough that he thought no one would see him, and we also do not know how much stormlight would be required to fly up that high nonethless have sustained height. So that does not auto discount that being an issue.

 

Although that is an excellent point regarding starspren, that still does not counter the fact that the numerous societies in the know would recognize it not being starspren. 

[Oversleep]

Consider how many miles up the plane is flying. Yes Kal and Nin do not need to breathe, and maybe the stormlight helps them deal with the pressure change, but at no point does Kal or Szeth fly up that high. Dalinar's scouts were able to see Kal when he was flying high enough that he thought no one would see him, and we also do not know how much stormlight would be required to fly up that high nonethless have sustained height. So that does not auto discount that being an issue.

Well, Kaladin was at first flying in the chasms (below "ground" level) and then took to the skies (above "ground level"). So they probably spotted him on lower altitudes.

Gravitybinders doesn't necessarily fly as high as airplanes - airplanes go very high, that's true, but a man is about what, 30 times smaller than a plane? One doesn't need to go that high to remain unspotted. And of course there is the obvious: how many times people look in the sky and see a passing plane (given that they can actually spot it, I am not sure if high altitude planes are noticeable at all)? Remember that in our world planes make noise and then we look up to search for the source of the sound, but Gravitybinders make no sound, less than a bird would make - they just fall, they don't flatter wings or something.

P.S. The height is probably not an issue given that a Windrunner who knew what he was doing could potentially reach space. Windrunner, since Adhesion is needed to keep a pocket of air around your body to not freeze to death.

[IndigoAjah]

Also, Roshar is pretty cloudy a lot of the time?

[Treamayne]

Re: Taln's possible blade(s).  Earlier people were remarking on how ornate Honorblades (including Szeth's) are, but the quote in the prologue doesn't really say that.

 

 

Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one.

WoK Pg 1

 

We know they are "works of art" and have a "flowing design" but that does not imply "ornate." A Katana from Feudal Japan is likely a work of art, but not necessarily ornate. A Ghurka can be considered to have a flowing design, but also does not imply ostentation. I would agree they are likely stylized (the inscriptions imply as much) but I don't think they would be as elaborate as I inferred from the descriptions earlier in the thread.

 

Do we know for sure that the second blade Dalinar bonded really came from the Madman known as Taln?   We know that's what he told Amaram:

 

 

“I told my servant,” Dalinar said calmly, “to go drinking with your personal guard—he knew many of them—and talk of a treasure that the madman said had been hidden for years outside the warcamp. By my order, he then placed the madman’s Shardblade in a nearby cavern. After that, we waited.”

WoR Ch 76 S5

 

But it seems just as likely that it was one of the Dual-won Blades that was used for the ruse. Especially if the Madman's blade had had no gem and Dalinar did not want that revealed.

 

Consider how many miles up the plane is flying. Yes Kal and Nin do not need to breathe, and maybe the stormlight helps them deal with the pressure change, but at no point does Kal or Szeth fly up that high. Dalinar's scouts were able to see Kal when he was flying high enough that he thought no one would see him, and we also do not know how much stormlight would be required to fly up that high nonetheless have sustained height. So that does not auto discount that being an issue.

 

Although that is an excellent point regarding starspren, that still does not counter the fact that the numerous societies in the know would recognize it not being starspren. 

 

Civilian Airliners typically fly FL350+ (35,000 ft Mean Sea Level) when transiting more than 2 hours. Small Passenger Aircraft (like B350 King Air have a service ceiling below 30,000 ft, and more commonly fly around 20,000 ft MSL. They are generally undetectable by the unaided eye at those flight levels. With moderate humidity (causes haze at altitude) and or cloud cover, they are generally not visible at 12,000 ft. UAVs, which range from about 2 ft to almost 30 ft in length, are generally undetectable by the unaided eye at 6-10,000 ft. Especially without auditory cues.

 

Air pressure is such that unpressurized aircraft do not require supplemental oxygen for passengers at 10000 ft (when over 10k ft, supplemental oxygen is required and the time of useful consciousness decreases exponentially with each 1000 ft of altitude).

 

In the final battle, we know Szeth and Kaladin got above the cloud tops, which for a normal thunderstorm (and this was a Highstorm) can be anywhere from 15-35,0000 ft MSL; but I would say it is often 22-24,000 ft.

 

Terminal Velocity of a skydiver in freefall is about 195kph (120 mph) when splayed with wind resistance, and can reach over 320kph (200 mph) when arrowed forward, limbs tucked to reduce air velocity. So, with a single lashing and assuming Rosharan gravity is about equal to earth's, the average Windrunner trying to fall quickly over distance would be about the speed of a C-130 Hercules over distance.

 

All that said, even a few hundred feet would seem high to somebody new to this, so Kaladin's estimate of how high he thought he was when first experimenting over the shattered plane is not reliable. We know he can go higher, but I doubt he was over 5000 ft since the terrain he describes would have lost significant detail at higher altitudes. Roads can blend in and be difficult to see that high; and the chasms aren't a contrasting color, especially at night with only moonlight.

 

 

From here, they looked like a broken plate. No . . . he thought, squinting. It’s a pattern.

WoR Ch 52 S11

 

All that said, I think both theories for Nalan are equally viable, including the third possibility that we don;t know enough about the Heralds and they could have an innate ability to travel through Shadesmar without the Surgebinding of Transportation, like other known Worldhoppers.

[natc]

The blade was swapped out before it even arrived with the madman, IIRC.

[ParadoxicalZen]

The blade was swapped out before it even arrived with the madman, IIRC.

 

Seconded. 

[Pathfinder]

Well, Kaladin was at first flying in the chasms (below "ground" level) and then took to the skies (above "ground level"). So they probably spotted him on lower altitudes.

Gravitybinders doesn't necessarily fly as high as airplanes - airplanes go very high, that's true, but a man is about what, 30 times smaller than a plane? One doesn't need to go that high to remain unspotted. And of course there is the obvious: how many times people look in the sky and see a passing plane (given that they can actually spot it, I am not sure if high altitude planes are noticeable at all)? Remember that in our world planes make noise and then we look up to search for the source of the sound, but Gravitybinders make no sound, less than a bird would make - they just fall, they don't flatter wings or something.

P.S. The height is probably not an issue given that a Windrunner who knew what he was doing could potentially reach space. Windrunner, since Adhesion is needed to keep a pocket of air around your body to not freeze to death.

This discussion has side tracked the original thread quite a bit, due to my own actions. The subsequent posts show others trying to get it back on track, so in the interest of that, but also not cutting our discussion short, if it is ok with you I will PM my response to your post in a bit.

 

edit: and this includes indigoajah and treamayne

Edited January 21, 2016 by Pathfinder