Jump to content

Who Has Taln's Blade?


Moogle

Recommended Posts

Without suggesting that it is likely, it seems possible the Not-Taln still has it.  If it were "bound" to him, he might be able to summon it, but he has seen no reason to.  I know there may be WOB that Honorblades can't be bound, but I wonder whether they have a permanent bond w/the Heralds and Not-Taln got that bond w/Taln's memories.  If, as you suggest, it is not an Honorblade, he could definitely be bound to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was mentioned that Szeth's bond to the honorblade broken when he died. I assumed Taln is still "bonded" or at least he can summoned his blade back when he wishes it, even if it is physically taken from him.

 

Does the eye color only change when using the blade?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without suggesting that it is likely, it seems possible the Not-Taln still has it.  If it were "bound" to him, he might be able to summon it, but he has seen no reason to.  I know there may be WOB that Honorblades can't be bound, but I wonder whether they have a permanent bond w/the Heralds and Not-Taln got that bond w/Taln's memories.  If, as you suggest, it is not an Honorblade, he could definitely be bound to it.

 

If it was bonded to him, then Dalinar should not have been able to bond his Blade himself (Adolin demands that his opponents unbond their Shards before giving them up). Could be wrong on this, though. Or are you theorizing that someone gave "Taln" a free Blade and that the one he dropped in Kholinar later became mist as he unsummoned it?

 

It was mentioned that Szeth's bond to the honorblade broken when he died. I assumed Taln is still "bonded" or at least he can summoned his blade back when he wishes it, even if it is physically taken from him.

 

Does the eye color only change when using the blade?

 

Szeth's eye color only changed when he had his Honorblade out.

Edited by Moogle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Confused, I thought real Taln still has his honorblade bonded since he didnt give up his blade.

 

We don't know whether or not we've seen the real Taln - if the Taln we see at the end of WoK is the real Taln, then it seems quite likely he gave it up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought you were asking for possibilities.  I think this may be possible.  I do not suggest that it makes sense. 

Without suggesting that it is likely, it seems possible the Not-Taln still has it.  If it were "bound" to him, he might be able to summon it, but he has seen no reason to.  I know there may be WOB that Honorblades can't be bound, but I wonder whether they have a permanent bond w/the Heralds and Not-Taln got that bond w/Taln's memories.  If, as you suggest, it is not an Honorblade, he could definitely be bound to it.

 

If it was bonded to him, then Dalinar should not have been able to bond his Blade himself (Adolin demands that his opponents unbond their Shards before giving them up). Could be wrong on this, though. Or are you theorizing that someone gave "Taln" a free Blade and that the one he dropped in Kholinar later became mist as he unsummoned it?

Not-Taln starts w/2 Shardblades.  He has the spike-blade when he arrives at the capital.  He wills it to remain when he drops it as he passes out.  Later on, he turns it to mist.  Even later on he summons the cleaver-blade, unbonds it and drops it for Dalinar's agent to pick up. 

 

Or Hoid could have given him the cleaver-blade that he dropped later, possibly expecting that Dalinar's agent would get it to Dalinar. 

 

If one is bound to a blade and lends it, you can summon it back.  Do we know that this still works if the person it is lent to keeps it long enough to bond it again?  Since we know that they couldn't be bound without the added gems, then changing gems (as done w/Renarin's) would definitely break the bond.  Death of the bondholder presumably breaks the bond. 

 

Thinking about the two blades gets confusing.  You want to review the possibilities for what happened to the spikeblade, I think. Not-Taln could still have it. 

 

If it is not an Honorblade and Hoid didn't give him the cleaverblade (so Hoid could take the spikeblade without swapping), then Hoid could have it.

Edited by hoser
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not-Taln starts w/2 Shardblades.  He has the spike-blade when he arrives at the capital.  He wills it to remain when he drops it as he passes out.  Later on, he turns it to mist.  Even later on he summons the cleaver-blade, unbonds it and drops it for Dalinar's agent to pick up. 

 

Or Hoid could have given him the cleaver-blade that he dropped later, possibly expecting that Dalinar's agent would get it to Dalinar.

 

Oh, I see what you're saying. That's an interesting idea. Certainly possible, though not very likely. Thanks!

Edited by Moogle
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Q:  The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar, the one you refuse to acknowledge as Talenel - is that person the same as the one delivered to the warcamps?
A:  Yes.
(source)

 

Hmm... perhaps the Honorblades have a "possession" effect? Maybe when a person bonds with a Honorblade, they become possessed by the spirit of the Herald that originally had it. So perhaps the Not-Taln wasn't physically Taln, but maybe he was cognitively and spiritually Taln. After all, we don't know what Taln looked like originally (do we?).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it at all possible that Taln didn't actually die in the WoK prelude? That he arrived late to the party after Jezrien and Kalak had left, and came to one conclusion, that they had given up? It wouldn't be the first time in book characters were wrong. Could he have had someone else (possibly one of the KR to which he was the patron) take his place? Also, the repetition of what "Taln" says when he comes back sounds an awful lot like anti-interrogation techniques from the military where they repeat name, rank, and serial number if caputured by an enemy force that is interrogation and or torturing them.

 

Additionally, there's an important quote from the prelude:

 

"But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished." (Boldface is my addition)

 

This is opposite the normal behavior we see from dead spren blades (we have yet to see what happens to a live spren blade when their KR dies without breaking their oaths) which makes me think that when they die, they must take the blade with them to Damnation. This could all be different now since they "unbonded" the blades.

 

Honestly I don't know how much this will help, but i haven't seen anyone quote this section so I figured I would throw it out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to still wonder about Hoid...

 

Q:  Did Hoid switch out the blades?
A:  Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.
...
Q:  Does Hoid have 2 Honorblades?
A:  Hoid currently has no Honorblades.
(source)

 

When I read these quotes, I just have the feeling that Brandon is playing with us a bit. Just because Hoid didn't "switch out" the blades, doesn't mean he didn't purloin the honor blade from Taln. The cleaver like blade could be from another source (no, I have no idea who would put it there), just saying there is room for doubt for me in those quotes. 

 

Hoid currently has no Honorblades, that doesn't mean he didn't when we weren't looking at some point between the end of tWoK and his mention appearance in WoR. That just seems to carefully worded to me, as in "yeah he doesn't right now", but he did and he already gave it away or something. 

 

I must have missed something. I've seen it before around here, but why is there this great distrust that the man who appeared at the gate in Kholinar is actually the Herald Taln? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word currently in that WoB seems kinda unnecessary. He could've easily said "Hoid does not have any Honorblades," but instead he adds that word. I'm probably reading into this way too much, but it could be implying that Hoid has had an Honorblade in the past, or that he will have one in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

 

Hmm... perhaps the Honorblades have a "possession" effect? Maybe when a person bonds with a Honorblade, they become possessed by the spirit of the Herald that originally had it. So perhaps the Not-Taln wasn't physically Taln, but maybe he was cognitively and spiritually Taln. After all, we don't know what Taln looked like originally (do we?).

 

 

 

That makes Szeth...strange?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

 

Hmm... perhaps the Honorblades have a "possession" effect? Maybe when a person bonds with a Honorblade, they become possessed by the spirit of the Herald that originally had it. So perhaps the Not-Taln wasn't physically Taln, but maybe he was cognitively and spiritually Taln. After all, we don't know what Taln looked like originally (do we?).

 

 

Or it could be that Honorblades can Bond anyone, but not everyone can Bond a Honorblade. Meaning that although anyone who picks up the Blade can use it's basic settings only some select few, when they pick it up, can access the Blades full power.

Because I refuse to believe that Szeth had full access to the Honorblades potential when Kaladin was putting the beat down on him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Because I refuse to believe that Szeth had full access to the Honorblades potential when Kaladin was putting the beat down on him.

 

I would like if you were right. Kaladin soundly beating Szeth after a few weeks of training in him was a down point for me. Szeth is a better swordsman than Kaladin, he is also better at using his surges (he has to be): the big showdown at the end did not make sense to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like if you were right. Kaladin soundly beating Szeth after a few weeks of training in him was a down point for me. Szeth is a better swordsman than Kaladin, he is also better at using his surges (he has to be): the big showdown at the end did not make sense to me.

 

Well, if all it took was some small amount of training with magic to a Honorblade wielder, then the Heralds wouldn't have been strong enough to defeat the Voidbringers one time let alone however many times they bet them by themselves.

 

But as for Ishi'Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be know that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

--From Words of Radiance,

Chapter 2, page 4

 

I doubt that Ishar would say that if he couldn't back it up. This tells me Honorblades are powerful but only certain people can access that power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like if you were right. Kaladin soundly beating Szeth after a few weeks of training in him was a down point for me. Szeth is a better swordsman than Kaladin, he is also better at using his surges (he has to be): the big showdown at the end did not make sense to me.

 

I beg to differ. 

 

It made sense to me, once Szeth got over his shock, Kaladin did OK until he really felt and made use of his nature, something that Szeth cannot equal because he doesn't have. Szeth isn't a Herald or a Radiant and the big advantage he does have over Kaladin (being much better at Lashings) is rendered null by them fighting in the sky.    

 

Putting that aside, Kaladin has a truly immense advantage...a weapon that could change from sword, to shield, to spear to pretty much any other weapon instantly.

On top of this, it's a magically teleporting weapon. If you've ever fought in a martial art or the like you can probably appreciate how game-breaking this is. But, if not, just remember what Zahel says, that different weapons have different strengths and weaknesses (paraphrase) Kaladin can effectively choose the best weapon in any situation with no penalty.

 

For example...

 

Instead, he let himself be.

He dove for Szeth, coat flapping, spear pointed for the man's heart. Szeth got out of the way, but Kaladin dropped the spear and swung his hand in a great arc. Syl formed an axehead halberd. It came within inches of Szeth's face.

The assassin cursed, but responded with his Blade. A shield was in Kaladin's hand a split second later, and he slammed away the attack. Syl shattered even as he did so, forming back into a sword as Kaladin thrust forward with empty hands. The sword appeared, and the weapon bit deeply into Szeth's shoulder.  

(p 1025, Words of Radiance, Patterns of Light)

 

 

 That is an immense advantage in any situation, and even further...Kaladin can and does heal Shardblade wounds whereas Szeth cannot. 

 

Szeth is a better sword, but that doesn't matter much. A good spear or polearm will make up for for a great deal of difference in skill, and putting that aside, Kaladin is a trained and seasoned solider. I'd argue he's a better spearman than Szeth is a swordsman, in all likelihood, considering the years of skirmishes and practice as well as his Windrunner bonuses.  

 

So, end of the day we have Szeth without his biggest asset facing off against Kaladin in a situation that hugely favours the Windrunner, even if all else was equal Kaladin has the advantage in arms...but he also enjoys a number of secondary benefits that make it pretty fruitguzzlingly likely Stormblessed takes it. 

 

It's actually a big credit to Szeth that he doesn't really lose until he really breaks down and gives up. 

Edited by Savanorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Jasnah'a prologue chapter to WoR she hires an assassin to watch over the queen. An assassin that secretly has her own shardblade. I'd say she's a suspect for the blade-switch.

 

Liss is a possibility, but I don't see how she'd know enough about Taln to do it and why she'd swap rather than just take the Blade.

 

I must have missed something. I've seen it before around here, but why is there this great distrust that the man who appeared at the gate in Kholinar is actually the Herald Taln? 

 

There's numerous WoBs which indicate it, as well as hints (from Taln's eye color) that he wasn't holding an Honorblade. Amaram's blind faith in Taln being, well, Taln, is also a huge warning sign. Here's a few WoBs:

 

Q:  Are the Heralds actually aware that Taln is back?

A:  Are the Heralds aware that Taln is back? Uh, you're implying that this person actually is Taln. [The smile on Brandon's face at this moment was the best, most excruciatingly awful smile ever. And we thought Peter was a tease.] Which is not guaranteed. It's not guaranteed. However, the return of the Voidbringers does indeed indicate to them, in their mind, that he would have returned.

 

 

Q:  Do you know the order of 6-10?

A:  I know whose they are but I haven't decided the order.  Lift is one, Taln is one.  The person who calls himself Taln.

 

 

Q:  The person who arrived at the gates of Kholinar, the one you refuse to acknowledge as Talenel - is that person the same as the one delivered to the warcamps?

A:  Yes.

 

Argent noted Brandon's propensity for calling "Taln" "the one who calls himself Taln" a long while back, as I recall.

 

Could the Shin be a suspect? Szeth had to get Jezrien's blade somehow. I think there is a connection between the Shin and Honor Blades. Maybe they snuck in and swapped the blades?

 

The Shin are indeed a very good suspect. Thanks for the idea, I hadn't considered them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Liss is a possibility, but I don't see how she'd know enough about Taln to do it and why she'd swap rather than just take the Blade.

 

 

There's numerous WoBs which indicate it, as well as hints (from Taln's eye color) that he wasn't holding an Honorblade. Amaram's blind faith in Taln being, well, Taln, is also a huge warning sign. Here's a few WoBs:

 

 

 

Argent noted Brandon's propensity for calling "Taln" "the one who calls himself Taln" a long while back, as I recall.

 

 

The Shin are indeed a very good suspect. Thanks for the idea, I hadn't considered them.

 

Personally I will disappointed if he is not in fact the Herald Taln. I think Brandon knows how much we latch onto his every word and is being coy/playing some games with us on that. 

 

If he's not actually Taln, it doesn't make any sense for Hoid to wait for him to arrive back in Kholinar, nor talk about his timing of arrival and all that at the end of tWoK. If he was just a madman with a shardblade, it's not a Cosmere shaking event that would draw Hoid's attention. If on the other hand, he is the lost Herald arriving back to the human world... 

 

I feel like Borodin's "faithfulness" and his being Dalinar's "trusted footman" has been played up a lot. I would not be surprised if he swapped out the blades as he works for one of the kajillion secret societies on Roshar who all seem to know more than the wealthiest most informed people on Roshar (Alethi nobility/scholars). 

 

I'm not convinced that the eye color is an indicator of anything related to Honorblades and Heralds. I've said it before, we only have 1 instance of anyone wielding a confirmed Honorblade. If eye colors do change, it would be related to the color of the stone type associated with a Herald on the divine essence tables is my guess, hence Kaladin get's sapphire blues when he wields/surgebinds. Nan's eyes would go black like smokestone, do we have any WoB stating what color of topaz is the essential color? Topaz naturally ranges from basically clear to blue to orange to... dark brown.

 

Large_Topaz_Gemstones.jpg

Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not convinced that the eye color is an indicator of anything related to Honorblades and Heralds. I've said it before, we only have 1 instance of anyone wielding a confirmed Honorblade. If eye colors do change, it would be related to the color of the stone type associated with a Herald on the divine essence tables is my guess, hence Kaladin get's sapphire blues when he wields/surgebinds. Nan's eyes would go black like smokestone, do we have any WoB stating what color of topaz is the essential color? Topaz naturally ranges from basically clear to blue to orange to... dark brown.

 

There is only one canonical color for the associated gemstone. WoBs on the matter:

ArsenoPyrite ()

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gems? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements—in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron)? Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

Brandon Sanderson

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the Mistborn world, emerald and heliodor can be very similar—but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic—it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

(source)

 

Q:  Will a Surgebinder's eye color change when they Surgebind or have a Blade. Is the color of their eyes corresponding to their Order? So Windrunners would do blue.

A:  Yes.

Q:  So each Order does a different eye color?

A:  Each Order does indeed have an eye color representation.

(source)

 

Dalinar sees Stonewards with light tan eyes, therefore Taln's eyes should be light tan with his bonded Honorblade out. Szeth's eye color was described exactly like Kaladin's after all.

 

As to the "only one confirmed instance of someone's eye color changing"... no, we also have the eye color of every single person who bonds a Shardblade changing too. Spren based themselves on the Honorblades, so it seems eye color changes in general are a trait of bonding a Blade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, but my question is, do we know the canonical color of "topaz" as the pure "topaz"? I've seen that WoB, but it doesn't mention which of the shades of topaz is correct. I guess we can assume a "light tan" color based on the Stonewards you mention. 

 

I said, or was trying to say, we only have "one confirmed instance of someone wielding a honorblade". Yes his eye color changes to match the "Windrunner blue/white" just like Kaladin's. I still think the way/levels/whatnot that Heralds interact with the Honorblades is different from normal people. I'm going to step out of all eye color debates from now on and just wait until we see a confirmed Herald wielding the full might of a confirmed Honorblade to see what happens. 

 

As I said, I will be pretty disappointed if the large imposing man with super fast reflexes who appeared at the Gates of Kholinar claiming to be the Herald Taln, and upon whose arrival Hoid was waiting ends up not being the Herald Taln in the end. 

 

If he is the Herald, it doesn't make sense for him to return from Damnation with a non-Honorblade (massive spike blade) eye color not withstanding.

 

What about my thought that, like Amaram, Borodin's faithfulness is a little too good to be true kind of thing and he is the one who swapped the blades? He was leading the expedition to bring Taln down to the Shattered plains and would have been in the best position to swap the blades out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As I said, I will be pretty disappointed if the large imposing man with super fast reflexes who appeared at the Gates of Kholinar claiming to be the Herald Taln, and upon whose arrival Hoid was waiting ends up not being the Herald Taln in the end. 

 

If he is the Herald, it doesn't make sense for him to return from Damnation with a non-Honorblade (massive spike blade) eye color not withstanding.

 

What about my thought that, like Amaram, Borodin's faithfulness is a little too good to be true kind of thing and he is the one who swapped the blades? He was leading the expedition to bring Taln down to the Shattered plains and would have been in the best position to swap the blades out. 

 

I agree, it would be a letdown if he were not Taln. But I think he could be Jezrien or one of the other Heralds suffering from multiple personality disorder, and it would still be okay with me.

 

Bordin is indeed a suspect I completely forgot to put down for some reason. I'll edit my original post. He's not very likely, though - why would he have a hidden Shardblade? Why bring Taln to Dalinar at all if he's just going to swipe the Blade?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, it would be a letdown if he were not Taln. But I think he could be Jezrien or one of the other Heralds suffering from multiple personality disorder, and it would still be okay with me.

 

Bordin is indeed a suspect I completely forgot to put down for some reason. I'll edit my original post. He's not very likely, though - why would he have a hidden Shardblade? Why bring Taln to Dalinar at all if he's just going to swipe the Blade?

 

it would be interesting if it were another Herald who showed up there... but I'm still pulling for Taln. 

 

I just take it for granted now that every character we've met who isn't a view point character is working for or with a secret society or being manipulated by one whether we have heard of that society or not. Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, the Diagram, the Envisagers, Skybreakers, etc., etc. Helaran was given a shardblade that no one had ever seen before with the Skybreakers. Graves had an unknown shardblade and was part of the Diagram. And we know that the # of blades in Alethkar and the other kingdoms doesn't anywhere near the # of blades dropped by just the Windrunners and Stonewards at Feverstone keep. 

 

Why would Borodin have a blade? At this point, who knows, but if it was him then he has to be associated with a secret society who gave him a blade to make the swap for their own purposes. Perhaps he recognized what the sword was and swiped it to keep it safe from everyone, Dalinar included. But didn't mind passing Taln over to Dalinar? 

 

He seems as likely as anyone at this point. It's like there are gaps for each group. Some have motive, but probably not opportunity (Shin, Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods). Few have opportunity, but do they have motive (like Borodin, Hoid)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...