Mistborn Adventure Game is out! (Possible Spoilers)

[name_here]

It's demonstrably the case that Terrismen could possess Allomancy via Lerasium and Hemalurgy and nobles could get Feruchemcy by Hemalurgy, so that's hardly conclusive. It does mean Kandra are not natively Feruchemists, but we already assumed that.

[Eerongal]

Yeah, hemalurgy as written lets you add allomantic/Feruchemical powers to your power list, but I didn't see any racial limits to it. I didn't notice anything off hand that i can remember that would FORBID it. From a rules-lawyery perspective, it doesn't add an ALLOMANTIC or FERUCHEMICAL power but a HEMALURGIC power that mimics one from the other lists from what i remember.

Edit: looking up in advancements really quick, it specifically says

page 126:

Anyone can indulge in the dark practice of hemalurgy if they know how and have the right tools....

another edit:

and this appears to be further enforced in the hemalurgy section.

Page 286:

Any character all ready in play can spend advancements to gain hemalurgic spikes

It talks about koloss and kandra in regards to hemalurgy, and it doesn't appear to state anywhere that a kandra can't get hemalurgic spikes (just that they CAN get more blessings), where as everything about gaining hemalurgic powers says that ANYONE can gain them.

[Inkthinker]

It's worth noting that been a while since I read the text, but it seems to me that any player with Hemalurgy needs a good reason for HOW and WHY. A good GM probably shouldn't let a player write some nonsense backstory to excuse having spikes.

It's also worth noting that just having Hemalurgic powers sets you up for madness and worse. Anyone with a spike is being influenced and observed by Ruin at best, if not outright controlled.

[Satsuoni]

Except you can only do it with metalminds, not with Allomancy, as far as I can tell from the text.

EDIT: Yeah, as far as the Adventure Game text is concerned, it's strictly applied to Feruchemy. "In this way investiture is the most potent enhancement available in Feruchemy, a reserve of pure, universal power that can amplify nearly any Feruchemical effort."

We think he was Compounding his Age multiple times, using multiple metalminds via Nicrosil.

Seems easy enough to explain: it's the Identity and Connection of the person killed to make the spike, not the users. Terrifyingly simple.

Amplify only? I thought they could draw out any attribute at will Does that mean that Nicrosil Ferrings are Gnats? A pity if so.. Or maybe they can actually store their souls (which are Investiture)? Also, I agree that Feruchemical Investiture and Allomantic Investiture are separate, Allomantic Investiture working like mists for Vin. Actually, I think there are at least 4 types of Investiture: Feruchemical, Allomantic, Hemalurgic (draining spike charge), and Human Soul, but that is just guessing. (Nope, don't have the book... or a credit card. damnation)

As for Alluminium trick, I thought that since you can only steal one Feruchemic power per Feruchemist, you should steal Identity, and gain access to all his stores by tapping it. (Totally called the Metalmind usage).

[Kurkistan]

Amplify only? I thought they could draw out any attribute at will Does that mean that Nicrosil Ferrings are Gnats? A pity if so.. Or maybe they can actually store their souls (which are Investiture)? Also, I agree that Feruchemical Investiture and Allomantic Investiture are separate, Allomantic Investiture working like mists for Vin. Actually, I think there are at least 4 types of Investiture: Feruchemical, Allomantic, Hemalurgic (draining spike charge), and Human Soul, but that is just guessing. (Nope, don't have the book... or a credit card. damnation)

As for Alluminium trick, I thought that since you can only steal one Feruchemic power per Feruchemist, you should steal Identity, and gain access to all his stores by tapping it. (Totally called the Metalmind usage).

I disagree that Feruchemical and Allomantic Investiture are necessarily separate. We've seen that the power that fuels Allomancy can be hacked into fueling Feruchemy in the case of compounding.

A sensible way that I think of Investiture working is that yes, it does only boost other applications of Investiture. Accessing Feruchemical attributes or burning metals for Allomancy closes the circuit and gives a very specific path for the power of the nicrosil-mind to follow, like weak voltage switching a transistor and allowing a much stronger voltage to flow through.

This way, it makes sense for the nicroisl-mind to not "remember" where it got its power from, and for a nicrosil Ferring to be incapable of casting thunderbolts or something instead of being restricted to simply boosting otherwise-accessible magic systems. TLR, instead of storing Allomantic brass, would simply have stored Investiture from some earlier point in time, burn brass, and then use the act of soothing as a guide to the application of the Investiture, exactly the same as how the metals act for Allomancy and the Aons work on Sel, as the Ars Arcanum author noted.

EDIT: Following from this, I would posit that nicrosil twinborn would simply store the Investiture of any metal they burned, instead of getting that metal's effects, similar to how a Feruchemist cannot tap any metalminds while storing in a nicrosil-mind. For a twinborn, this would basically amount to storing the power of burning their metal.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

I disagree that Feruchemical and Allomantic Investiture are necessarily separate. We've seen that the power that fuels Allomancy can be hacked into fueling Feruchemy in the case of compounding.

A sensible way that I think of Investiture working is that yes, it does only boost other applications of Investiture. Accessing Feruchemical attributes or burning metals for Allomancy closes the circuit and gives a very specific path for the power of the nicrosil-mind to follow, like weak voltage switching a transistor and allowing a much stronger voltage to flow through.

This way, it makes sense for the nicroisl-mind to not "remember" where it got its power from, and for a nicrosil Ferring to be incapable of casting thunderbolts or something instead of being restricted to simply boosting otherwise-accessible magic systems. TLR, instead of storing Allomantic brass, would simply have stored Investiture from some earlier point in time, burn brass, and then use the act of soothing as a guide to the application of the Investiture, exactly the same as how the metals act for Allomancy and the Aons work on Sel, as the Ars Arcanum author noted.

EDIT: Following from this, I would posit that nicrosil twinborn would simply store the Investiture of any metal they burned, instead of getting that metal's effects, similar to how a Feruchemist cannot tap any metalminds while storing in a nicrosil-mind. For a twinborn, this would basically amount to storing the power of burning their metal.

OK, maybe I am wrong. What about hemalurgy, then? That is also Investiture. Also,the Twinborn do get a boost then, but what about pure ferrings? Are they completely useless? That does not seem right. Also, what would happen if you just try to tap your investiture? All other metalminds can be tapped separately, and even duralumin can be burned without any other metal (it just does not do anything). So if you compound Investiture as a Nicrosil/Nicrosil, and then draw it all in one second without burning/tapping anything, will it just disappear?

[Kurkistan]

OK, maybe I am wrong. What about hemalurgy, then? That is also Investiture. Also,the Twinborn do get a boost then, but what about pure ferrings? Are they completely useless? That does not seem right. Also, what would happen if you just try to tap your investiture? All other metalminds can be tapped separately, and even duralumin can be burned without any other metal (it just does not do anything). So if you compound Investiture as a Nicrosil/Nicrosil, and then draw it all in one second without burning/tapping anything, will it just disappear?

Okay, I'll try to deal with these issues:

Hemalurgy:

I favor the theory, which I believe someone else has suggested, that you could increase the power of a spike's Investiture. To flow with my "power-as-conduit" theory for nicrosil, you would need a spike that was previously charged in order to act on with the power of a nicrosil-mind.

Unguided-tapping:

I think the best solution for this is for it to be simply impossible for a Feruchemist of any stripe to tap a nicrosil-mind without providing a channel for its power. I admit that this is unique for Feruchemical powers in that every other attribute can be tapped whenever the Feruchemist wants to, but I think of it in terms of how a Feruchemist or Allomancer can sense the latent power in metalminds, but can't access it unless they have the "key" to that power. In the case of normal metalminds, the key is apparently the Identity of the Feruchemist who stored the attribute. In the case of nicrosil-minds, then, the key is tapping/burning something else, and the power cannot be accessed otherwise.

So basically as far as nicrosil-ferrings go: Yeah they're, nicrosil-gnats (nicrosil-ants?). Too bad for them. They can never tap from their metalminds, although the possibility of serving as the Feruchemical counterpart of a Leecher is raised even within the game book.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Okay, I'll try to deal with these issues:

Hemalurgy:

I favor the theory, which I believe someone else has suggested, that you could increase the power of a spike's Investiture. To flow with my "power-as-conduit" theory for nicrosil, you would need a spike that was previously charged in order to act on in with the power of a nicrosil-mind.

Unguided-tapping:

I think the best solution for this is for it to be simply impossible for a Feruchemist of any stripe to tap a nicrosil-mind without providing a channel for its power. I admit that this is unique for Feruchemical powers in that every other attribute can be tapped whenever the Feruchemist wants to, but I think of it in terms of how a Feruchemist or Allomancer can sense the latent power in metalminds, but can't access it unless they have the "key" to that power. In the case of normal metalminds, the key is apparently the Identity of the Feruchemist who stored the attribute. In the case of nicrosil-minds, then, the key is tapping/burning something else, and the power cannot be accessed otherwise.

So basically as far as nicrosil-ferrings go: Yeah they're, nicrosil-gnats (nicrosil-ants?). Too bad for them. They can never tap from their metalminds, although the possibility of serving as the Feruchemical counterpart of a Leecher is raised even within the game book.

O..ok. Last question then, what about nicrosil/ nicrosil twinbron burning metal mind filled to capacity? It should release investiture even without tapping it, if I understand the process correctly

[Kurkistan]

O..ok. Last question then, what about nicrosil/ nicrosil twinbron burning metal mind filled to capacity? It should release investiture even without tapping it, if I understand the process correctly

Using my model, I think that it should actually release the equivalent of a large flare of nicrosil, since compounding in this case would both channel greater Investiture into the twinborn and instantiate that Investiture into the energy pattern of a nicrosil burn. This flare could then be generalized and stored in a nicrosil mind, if the twinborn was storing into a nicrosil-mind at the time.

Writing this, the question has occurred to me as to whether or not an Allomancer/Feruchemist can choose which of their "active powers" they want a nicrosil tap to be applied to. The game book suggests that they can, but it might be similar to duraluminum's effects in that the tapped Investiture would simply be applied equally to all active powers.

Speaking of duraluminum, that's actually an excellent parallel for my model. Tapping a nicrosil-mind is essentially like burning duraluminum, except that it doesn't consume any more metal than normal for Allomancers and can be applied equally as well to Feruchemical attributes.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Using my model, I think that it should actually release the equivalent of a large flare of nicrosil, since compounding in this case would both channel greater Investiture into the twinborn and instantiate that Investiture into the energy pattern of a nicrosil burn. This flare could then be generalized and stored in a nicrosil mind, if the twinborn was storing into a nicrosil-mind at the time.

Writing this, the question has occurred to me as to whether or not an Allomancer/Feruchemist can choose which of their "active powers" they want a nicrosil tap to be applied to. The game book suggests that they can, but it might be similar to duraluminum's effects in that the tapped Investiture would simply be applied equally to all active powers.

Speaking of duraluminum, that's actually an excellent parallel for my model. Tapping a nicrosil-mind is essentially like burning duraluminum, except that it doesn't consume any more metal than normal for Allomancers and can be applied equally as well to Feruchemical attributes.

Hm.. I do not agree with all points (also, filling metalmind to capacity removes the allomantic ability, if I understood Brandon's interview correctly), but I think I'll just post a new topic describing my Investiture theory in detail. Hm.. do you think Hemalurgy is a limited Investiture (like Ferichemy) or ongoing Investiture (like, in a way, Allomancy)?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Satsuoni

[Kurkistan]

Hm.. I do not agree with all points (also, filling metalmind to capacity removes the allomantic ability, if I understood Brandon's interview correctly), but I think I'll just post a new topic describing my Investiture theory in detail. Hm.. do you think Hemalurgy is a limite Investiture (like Ferichemy) or ongoing Investiture (like, in a way, Allomancy)?

Ah, I wasn't aware that Brandon had made a statement to that effect. Do you have a link to the interview, or could you quote the relevant section? I would like to see exactly what he said to make sure that that aspect of my theory has been properly torpedoed.

This is the first time I can recall seeing "limited vs ongoing" used as terminology, but from what I understand you to be saying I would probably say. . . ongoing (?).

[Satsuoni]

Ah, I wasn't aware that Brandon had made a statement to that effect. Do you have a link to the interview, or could you quote the relevant section? I would like to see exactly what he said to make sure that that aspect of my theory has been properly torpedoed.

This is the first time I can recall seeing "limited vs ongoing" used as terminology, but from what I understand you to be saying I would probably say. . . ongoing (?).

This

Just my impression, but I think this:

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.

Implies that in the end, no Allomantic charge is left in the metal, which is why Miles does not have Gold flashbacks all the time.

[Kurkistan]

This

Just my impression, but I think this:

Implies that in the end, no Allomantic charge is left in the metal, which is why Miles does not have Gold flashbacks all the time.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I do remember this interview now, but I guess I let it slip my mind while writing my response.

I'm actually of the opinion that the Feruchemical charge does not so much "overwrite" the Allomantic potential of the metal as offer an alternative fuel source, once again going back to Vin's discussion with Sazed in FE. I think that an allomancer could choose whether to "burn" the Feruchemical aspect of the metalmind or simply access it's Allomantic attributes.

This is besides the point though, because whether or not burning a nicrosil-mind Allomantically is an the option, we still have the case where a Double Nicrosil twinborn could simply choose not to access the Allomantic aspect of his metalmind.

We have two cases then: either, as you suggested, the Investiture stored in the nicrosil-mind and gained from compounding is released as generalized Investiture and can possibly go completely unused, which would be bad, or we go with a slightly modified version of my explanation. What if the Investiture gained from nicrosil-compounding short-circuits the short-circuit for compounding? Perhaps the Investiture "tapped" by compounding sees the Allomantic-nicrosil "gateway" before it sees the changes made to it for it to become a Feruchemical-nicrosil one.

Any other explanation for why raw Investiture can't run rampant when compounding would be appreciated.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I do remember this interview now, but I guess I let it slip my mind while writing my response.

I'm actually of the opinion that the Feruchemical charge does not so much "overwrite" the Allomantic potential of the metal as offer an alternative fuel source, once again going back to Vin's discussion with Sazed in FE. I think that an allomancer could choose whether to "burn" the Feruchemical aspect of the metalmind or simply access it's Allomantic attributes.

This is besides the point though, because whether or not burning a nicrosil-mind Allomantically is an the option, we still have the case where a Double Nicrosil twinborn could simply choose not to access the Allomantic aspect of his metalmind.

We have two cases then: either, as you suggested, the Investiture stored in the nicrosil-mind and gained from compounding is released as generalized Investiture and can possibly go completely unused, which would be bad, or we go with a slightly modified version of my explanation. What if the Investiture gained from nicrosil-compounding short-circuits the short-circuit for compounding? Perhaps the Investiture "tapped" by compounding sees the Allomantic-nicrosil "gateway" before it sees the changes made to it for it to become a Feruchemical-nicrosil one.

Any other explanation for why raw Investiture can't run rampant when compounding would be appreciated.

I made this theory.

[fyodor]

Actually, they prevent that on page 102:

I read this as being a gameplay restriction rather than some sort of actual statement on the nature of the in-book-universe.

[Quantum Toast]

Also,the Twinborn do get a boost then, but what about pure ferrings? Are they completely useless? That does not seem right. Also, what would happen if you just try to tap your investiture?

There's a note at the bottom of the nicrosil Feruchemy section saying that if you tap lots of Investiture (I think we're calling it Surging now?) you can use it to wipe someone else's metalminds, and it doesn't sound like you need anything else to use it that way. That sounds pretty useful, basically a Feruchemical equivalent to a chromium Misting. Edited December 20, 2011 by Quantum Toast

[Satsuoni]

There's a note at the bottom of the nicrosil Feruchemy section saying that if you tap lots of Investiture (I think we're calling it Surging now?) you can use it to wipe someone else's metalminds, and it doesn't sound like you need anything else to use it that way. That sounds pretty useful, basically a Feruchemical equivalent to a chromium Misting.

OK,that is weird. Multiusage of a single attribute.. Definitely in need of the book now.

P.S. In context of my pet theory, may work if you need to touch metalminds for wiping

Edited December 20, 2011 by Satsuoni

[Quantum Toast]

Yeah, it says you have to be touching it. From the sound of it, you're effectively trying to store raw Investiture in the other metalmind, which overwrites what's already in there.

[Pechvarry]

Re: Aluminum and accessing other's metalminds. People are mentioning about how if you're filling massive amounts of identity, you have no identity. But is it impossible that you could just tap so much identity as to will yourself to be someone else? Or, at least, will yourself to subsume someone else's "spiritual sense of identity"?

This interpretation would be more general-use, but require so much tapping as to be a very temporary solution (not to mention you would still need the capacity to tap any non-aluminummind).

[PeterAhlstrom]

I haven't read the whole thread. Is there some statement from Brandon that led people to believe an atium spike could steal any power?

[Kurkistan]

I haven't read the whole thread. Is there some statement from Brandon that led people to believe an atium spike could steal any power?

Yes there is.

Link

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

EDIT: That same answer also includes the answer to the "why are there Atium Mistings?" question that we've all been asking: Preservation changed Allomancy so that Atium/Malatium had Mistings, substituting them for Cadmium and Bendalloy. This at least as far as the auto-snapping mists went. It makes sense for regular Mistings too, though.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Aiken Frost]

Guys, have you noticed this bit in the Bendalloy section?

A physical attack made through the bubble, whether held or thrown, is robbed

of its kinetic energy, often with an audible “pop.”

Could this be what we are looking for when trying to figure the FTL space travel thing?

[ReaderAt2046]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, I do remember this interview now, but I guess I let it slip my mind while writing my response.

I'm actually of the opinion that the Feruchemical charge does not so much "overwrite" the Allomantic potential of the metal as offer an alternative fuel source, once again going back to Vin's discussion with Sazed in FE. I think that an allomancer could choose whether to "burn" the Feruchemical aspect of the metalmind or simply access it's Allomantic attributes.

This is besides the point though, because whether or not burning a nicrosil-mind Allomantically is an the option, we still have the case where a Double Nicrosil twinborn could simply choose not to access the Allomantic aspect of his metalmind.

We have two cases then: either, as you suggested, the Investiture stored in the nicrosil-mind and gained from compounding is released as generalized Investiture and can possibly go completely unused, which would be bad, or we go with a slightly modified version of my explanation. What if the Investiture gained from nicrosil-compounding short-circuits the short-circuit for compounding? Perhaps the Investiture "tapped" by compounding sees the Allomantic-nicrosil "gateway" before it sees the changes made to it for it to become a Feruchemical-nicrosil one.

Any other explanation for why raw Investiture can't run rampant when compounding would be appreciated.

Third option: It infuses the Twinborn like Light, waiting for a chance to be released i.e. Regular Nicrosil.

[ReaderAt2046]

On a completely different note, the game mistakenly states that burning Duralumin depletes your reserves of Duralumin itself, as well as everything else. This is explicitly countermanded in the Assembly battle of WoA.

[Crafty Games]

Awesome stuff here, everyone! Thanks for your enthusiasm and support!

First, an apology for the typos and other foibles in the release. Many of those were caught and fixed, but a version control issue re-introduced them.

Please do send along anything you find to [email protected]. We'll be updating all editions of the game before we go to press in January.

(By the way, the RPG uses the convention of capitalizing metals for the purposes of the game. This is intentional on their part, though it really annoys me.)

It's a byproduct of them doubling as game terms. Note that we actually don't capitalize them in cases where we refer to the actual in-world metals (e.g. "He picked up a bar of pewter..."), but rather only when they're addressed as Powers (e.g. "Your Hero can use Iron to..."). We find it really helps when reading the product as a game.

That should about cover it for now. I'm watching the thread and will pop back in if anything comes up.

Have fun, and stay Crafty!

Edited December 21, 2011 by Crafty Games