kroen Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) 1. What did Rand do the Dark One? Did he just imprison him again? did he imprison him permanently somehow? 2. How did Rand switch bodies with Moridin? 3. Why did Rand fake his death and ran away? Why not reveal himself to everyone? 4. Why did Rand lose his Channeling capability? 5. How did Rand lit his pipe? Was he able to weave the Pattern as he did when fighting the Dark One? Edited July 21, 2014 by kroen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't actually remember, so I'll skip this one. It has something to do with the connection they share - a connection that, to the best of my knowledge, was created back when their balefires touched. Probably because he wanted some peace for himself. And because he felt the world didn't need him anymore, his work was done. Likely because of the new body. Nobody knows. Even Brandon doesn't. I think the dominant belief is that Rand can now weave the Pattern in a way similar to how Channelers can weave the One / True Power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 1. I'm pretty sure that he essentially repaired the break in the Pattern that was repaired in the Age of Legends, but perfectly - e.g. no seals that can be broken, just the unblemished original pattern, ready to get cracked open again at the next turning. 5. It felt like he was working with reality the same way dreamwalkers work with Tel'Aran'Rhiod. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 1. I'm pretty sure that he essentially repaired the break in the Pattern that was repaired in the Age of Legends, but perfectly - e.g. no seals that can be broken, just the unblemished original pattern, ready to get cracked open again at the next turning. 5. It felt like he was working with reality the same way dreamwalkers work with Tel'Aran'Rhiod. 1. So he didn't actually accomplished anything is that what you say? So when the next turning comes another Dragon will be needed and so on and so forth? That's... anticlimactic to say the least. 2. Haven't heard that theory before, and I actually like it better than Pattern-weaving. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Isn't the entire point of the story tha the cycle is infinite and happens again and again and again? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 If that's the point of the story, then there's nothing special about it. If that's truly the interpretation, then you're left thinking "this happened 3 times before, and it'll happen infinite times again." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 But there's nothing in the story to suggest that Rand derailed the Cycle - I think the idea is in fact that it happened infinite times before, and will happen infinite times again, with different iterations of character and event - the next time that age rolls around, maybe Rand will from a desert village, the Aiel will inhabit tree houses, and there will be lightsabers. There must be lightsabers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Okay, but if this things happens indefinitely, then how come no Dragon ever chose to kill the Dark One? Surely that would've derailed the cycle..? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) One more question: If Moridin wanted oblivion so badly, why didn't he simply use Balefire on himself? and don't tell me it's impossible; if he really wanted to he could've simply opened a gateway from both sides of him and shot Balefire to one. Edit: nvm I didn't realize Balefire wasn't in fact permanent death. Edited July 21, 2014 by kroen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Okay, but if this things happens indefinitely, then how come no Dragon ever chose to kill the Dark One? Surely that would've derailed the cycle..? Maybe it's not possible. And even if it were, you have to remember that derailing the cycle, breaking the Wheel, that's all the Dark One's goal. Ultimately it might have served him better if one of the Dragons were to wreck havoc on the Pattern. EDIT: In my experience trying to analyze and process Jordan's work in ways similar to how we process Brandon's doesn't work. The Wheel of Time lacks the depth of complexity we are used to from Brandon's novels, even if it has the breadth. Edited July 21, 2014 by Argent 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Okay, but if this things happens indefinitely, then how come no Dragon ever chose to kill the Dark One? Surely that would've derailed the cycle..? I got the impression that if someone broke the wheel, either by rand killing the dark one, or by the dark one winning, then the creator would just make the universe anew, and it already happened several times. Yes, I'm not that satisfied with it; I see progress (scientifical, cultural, social, everything you can think of) as the goal of the human race and the way to fulfill our potential, and the idea that everything will blow up and we have to restart from scratch every time don't feel so good. but a full cycle of the wheel can last millions of years, most of which spent into highly enlightened and advancced ages. in the face of that, having to endure a few millennia of suffering and obscurantism is a price worth paying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 kroen, on 21 Jul 2014 - 11:31 PM, said: Okay, but if this things happens indefinitely, then how come no Dragon ever chose to kill the Dark One? Surely that would've derailed the cycle..? Amor fati. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topomouse Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 As I understood it, Rand didn't kill the Dark One because he saw what would be the result and didn't like it. When he is confronting directly the DO and they are showing each other possibile worlds, Rand shows him the world without the DO (where he meets Elayne and they have some talk about children IIRC) and he sees that even if there is no "evil" in the world everyone is kind of "empty" inside, since there are no problems, no one has any reason to do anything. The DO explicitely says that that kind of empty world would be an acceptable outcome for him Since that would be the result of killing the DO and, IMHO since he has faith that everyone in the end can and will resist his temptations, he just imprison him again. BTW: about Rand's pipe and his new ability, isn't "working with reality like it was Tel'aran'rhiod" more or less the same "directly weaving the pattern"? I mean, reality IS the pattern so there isn't much difference between the two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Just to be clear, I never asked why Rand didn't kill the Dark One, as that was fairly obvious. (Killing him would basically Turn everyone to the Light whether they like it or not.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topomouse Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Well, you did ask this: Okay, but if this things happens indefinitely, then how come no Dragon ever chose to kill the Dark One? Surely that would've derailed the cycle..? So I tried to give a reason based on the only dragon we know. I assume a confrontation like that happen in each iteration of the cycle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 My point was that if it happened infinite times before, then surely some Dragon would have chose to kill the Dark One. Not every dragon ever had Rand's moral code. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topomouse Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ok, now i get it, but the answer is actually pretty much the same. Your line of thought is similar to that which brought Moridin to the Shadow: he reasoned that since Light and Shadow will fight infinite times and the DO just has to win once to win it all, then sooner or later the Shadow would win for sure. Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount at the end of The Gathering Storm and later while fighting the DO reject this view of the world. Humanity as a whole will always fight the Shadow, even if some of them fall other will still fight The Shadow will never win, no matter how many times battle is fought. At least that's how i see it. The Creator will always make sure that the Dragon and everyone else don't lose hope. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 My pet theory during the series was that the universes were lined up like Petri dishes, with different starting conditions trending towards long-term stability - e. g. the wheel keeps turning. Rand's iteration was simply one that kept turning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 My point was that if it happened infinite times before, then surely some Dragon would have chose to kill the Dark One. Not every dragon ever had Rand's moral code. I'm not so sure the Wheel has turned infinite times. I think at some point in the future a Dragon will fail and the Wheel will be broken. Maybe. It's what Ishamael came to understand. The Pattern is pretty darn good at being manipulative, so maybe it'll take a long time, but it does seem like it will happen. It's one of the many sad things about the universe. They're stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over (in broad strokes), and eventually the world will end. Unless a Dragon eventually decides to kill the Dark One, which would help matters out immensely. I was a bit disappointed in Rand, to be honest. I even felt a little bit of sympathy for Ishamael. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted July 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) As Rand witnesses, a world with no Light (by the Dark One winning) is just as bad as a world with no Shadow (by killing the Dark One). In both worlds, people have no free will. Edited July 22, 2014 by kroen 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamma Fiend Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I actually believe that Shadow has won before. If we subscribe that the Wheel infinitely turns on and on, there will of course be countless Worlds where the Dark One has won just as much as the Light. Besides the cyclical themes of the story, with the passing of Ages time and time again, it was also about the duality of nature. Think of the random ta'veren events throughout the series. At first everybody freaked out because of all the random deaths and destruction caused by it, but then they also realized that were just as many positive spontaneous instances. It's all about balance. So if the Light wins One battle, the Shadow will win One. We have evidence of this from back in Book 2, when Rand uses the Portal Stones, and visits the alternate, semi-parallel world. In that one particular weaving of the pattern, the Shadow had indeed won. Of course, it might now have been the ultimate negation of existence that the Dark One and Moridin were looking for, but the Light had obviously failed. And as for the question as to how Rand had lit the pipe at the end, I basically believe it is because, as people say, he can weave the Pattern like Channelers can the One Power. But I of course take the theory one step further, and then propose that Rand is then that world's current Avatar of the Creator. We hear all throughout the series the classic, Ages old saying: "The Dark One and all the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time," We know that the quote isn't exactly true, with none of them being Sealed until the end of time. But besides the Creator, who could fit that possible criteria? The Dragon, when Lews Therin first failed to create the patch on the Seal, but also incompletely sealing the Forsaken. And then when Rand, as the Dragon Reborn, made it whole again. So that moment, throughout the Ages and passing of myth becomes the 'Moment of Creation', and then the Dragon becomes the The Creator. The Creator can weave the Pattern at will. And seemingly so does Rand.I of course have a whole additional part of that theory, with Saidar spending a few turnings of the Wheel being Tainted by the Dark One, and having a Female Dragon, or equivalent hero for that time period, as that fits in with the whole duality-balance themes of the series, and would also help explain Nakomi and bit more (and conveniently tie her in with being the equivalent of whatever Rand is now). *takes of Tinfoil hat and does best Forest Gump impersonation* "And that's all I have to say about that." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topomouse Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I'm sorry but i have to contraddict you. In the third book, when Verin gives Egwene information about the 13 Black Ajah siter that have escaped the tower, they discuss the Tel'aran'rhiod and the parallel worlds. In that expalination Verin says explicitely that there are three constants in al the world: the Creator, the Dark One, and Tel'aran'rhiod. And she says that in all possbile worlds the Dark One is imprisoned, if he managed to win in any world he would have won in all world, he would rewrite every possible world as he wants. In the world that Rand visits in the second book they found evidence that the Shadow had won a battle that it had lost in their world, not that it had won the Last Battle. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fievelgoespostal Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 If I am not mistaken, in the earlier books when Rand, mat , and perrin are battling Ishamael in their dreams..he claims that there were times during the Wheels turning where the Dragon had failed and had turned to the Shadow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamma Fiend Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I'm sorry but i have to contraddict you. In the third book, when Verin gives Egwene information about the 13 Black Ajah siter that have escaped the tower, they discuss the Tel'aran'rhiod and the parallel worlds. In that expalination Verin says explicitely that there are three constants in al the world: the Creator, the Dark One, and Tel'aran'rhiod. And she says that in all possbile worlds the Dark One is imprisoned, if he managed to win in any world he would have won in all world, he would rewrite every possible world as he wants. In the world that Rand visits in the second book they found evidence that the Shadow had won a battle that it had lost in their world, not that it had won the Last Battle. Ah, yes, good point. But then that does beg the question, that in those timelines where the Light has failed in some way, even if it hasn't been the Last Battle yet, eventually in those worlds the Last Battle will still happen, and in those particular worlds, the Shadow will be unhindered and the Dark One completely released. Unless we count the Last Battle that happens in Rand's timeline as being the 'pinnacle' or most important of the worlds, or as long as the Light just wins one of those Last Battles, then the Dark One still gets imprisoned throughout the entire Pattern, and then will then thus lock him away in all other, alternate worlds. Hmmm.... Also, with the thing about Ishmael boasting early on in the series that the Dragon had indeed failed in the past and turned to the Shadow, we could assume he was just lying to try and mess with Rand and them, since we know the Forsaken will basically use every trick they can to turn Rand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 Nakomi You just reminded me of her. that's right, who was she? do we get any explanation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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