Sadaes

[maxal Dawnshard]

On kal which i saw a few people mention he had as much reason to kill Amaram as Adolin had to kill Sadeas,maybe more in truth, since Amaram basically robbed him, killed his friends and put him into slavery, 

 

Kal wants to have revenge. He wants to kill Amaram for himself, which is quite different than Adolin and much more wrong. Kal wants retribution. Adolin wants to protect his family. Does he have reason to nurture murderous thoughts towards Amaram? Yes. Would he be right to act upon them? No. It would be more wrong for him to kill Amaram than it was for Adolin to kill Sadeas.

 

 

On Moash, i dont blame him for wanting vengence on Elhokar either, whether through incompetence, naivety or whatever he was still responsible for the deaths of his grandparents, so if justice was justice then Elhokar should of bin punished regardless, but he wasnt.

Graves used Moash wish for vengence to manipulate him in my opinion.

 

 

Elhokar does not deserve a death sentence because of Moash parents! He does not deserve to be punished either. He was acting king, he made a youthful mistake by trusting the wrong person. He wanted to make it right and he thought showing compassion was the right way to go. You cannot blame him for that! The culprit was Roshone and he was punished. Now was the punishment sufficient, that is another question, but killing Elhokar for this is not only misplaced, it is plain first degree murder of an innocent. It is plain vengeance and a ten times much more worst crime than Adolin or even Jasnah for that matter.

[Aleksiel Returned]

Kal wants to have revenge. He wants to kill Amaram for himself, which is quite different than Adolin and much more wrong. Kal wants retribution. Adolin wants to protect his family. Does he have reason to nurture murderous thoughts towards Amaram? Yes. Would he be right to act upon them? No. It would be more wrong for him to kill Amaram than it was for Adolin to kill Sadeas.

 

 

 

Elhokar does not deserve a death sentence because of Moash parents! He does not deserve to be punished either. He was acting king, he made a youthful mistake by trusting the wrong person. He wanted to make it right and he thought showing compassion was the right way to go. You cannot blame him for that! The culprit was Roshone and he was punished. Now was the punishment sufficient, that is another question, but killing Elhokar for this is not only misplaced, it is plain first degree murder of an innocent. It is plain vengeance and a ten times much more worst crime than Adolin or even Jasnah for that matter.

 

Well, Kal lost the family he found for himself and his little brother because of Amaram, so really had noone left to protect unlike Adolin. Kal wanted justice, not revenge. He never went for revenge. It made no sense to me when he agreed to help assassinate Elhokar, but didn't even think about killing Amaram. Since Amaram did what he did to Kal, it's likely he won't hesitate to do other bad things to other innocent people. I don't understand your desire to make Kal look bad is comparison to Adolin. Adolin is still wonderful and fascinating. 

 

I agree punishing Elhokar for Moash's parents is uncalled for. No matter how thoughtful and experienced a ruler is, they're bound to make some mistakes. Elhokar's fault was trusting Roshone too much, but he couldn't have known better. I understand Moash was bloodthirsty, but I think he didn't know about Roshone and was wrongfully under the impression Elhokar purposely let his grandparents die. Also, Moash was the only one after vengeance.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Griff Skaa]

 

 

Kal wants to have revenge. He wants to kill Amaram for himself, which is quite different than Adolin and much more wrong. Kal wants retribution. Adolin wants to protect his family. Does he have reason to nurture murderous thoughts towards Amaram? Yes. Would he be right to act upon them? No. It would be more wrong for him to kill Amaram than it was for Adolin to kill Sadeas.

 

Adolin wants revenge/ vengence for what happened at the tower as well. What Kal wants is retribution for Amaram killing his friends, i dont see how you can say Kal is wrong and Adolin is right.

 

 

Elhokar does not deserve a death sentence because of Moash parents! He does not deserve to be punished either. He was acting king, he made a youthful mistake by trusting the wrong person. He wanted to make it right and he thought showing compassion was the right way to go. You cannot blame him for that! The culprit was Roshone and he was punished. Now was the punishment sufficient, that is another question, but killing Elhokar for this is not only misplaced, it is plain first 

degree

 murder of an innocent. It is plain vengeance and a ten times much more worst crime than Adolin or even Jasnah for that matter.

 

 

 

Its still Elhokars fault, being ignorant, naive or too trusting isnt an excuse for causing the deaths of two elderly people, morally Moash was right for wanting retribution, i dont think that can be questioned, did Elhokar deseve to die for it? no, but was the only justice Moash could ever get, because he was a lighteyes and a king,

 

 

 

I agree punishing Elhokar for Moash's parents is uncalled for. No matter how thoughtful and experienced a ruler is, they're bound to make some mistakes. 

 

A mistake that caused the deaths of two people isnt punishible?

When the mistake was to arrest them and leave them rot in prison til they died?

Edited July 19, 2014 by Griff

[Aleksiel Returned]

A mistake that caused the deaths of two people isnt punishible?

When the mistake was to arrest them and leave them rot in prison til they died?

 

Elhokar had people who were supposed to set a trial for them. A ruler can't do everything by himself, he delegates. Where were the scribes that were supposed to prepare the paperwork so the trial could start? What about his advisers or those handling legal processes? Surely the dungeonguards and their superiors could have taken a lttle more interest as to when was the old couple going to be trialed as Moash's grandparents died in front of their eyes.

 

Also, please you the quote button at the end of my posts, else I don't get notifications.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Griff Skaa]

Elhokar had people who were supposed to set a trial for them. A ruler can't do everything by himself, he delegates. Where were the scribes that were supposed to prepare the paperwork so the trial could start? What about his advisers or those handling legal processes? Surely the dungeonguards and their superiors could have taken a lttle more interest as to when was the old couple going to be trialed as Moash's grandparents died in front of their eyes.

 

Also, please you the quote button at the end of my posts, else I don't get notifications.

 

U assume all that was set in motion? 

 

The way i read it was he put them into prison denying them a trial because they would win the inquest? So therefore the fault lies with Elhokar

[Aleksiel Returned]

U assume all that was set in motion? 

 

The way i read it was he put them into prison denying them a trial because they would win the inquest? So therefore the fault lies with Elhokar

 

That's what Moash told Kaladin, but not what Dalinar said. Elhokar had them arrested based on Roshone's accusations, so far so good. He was supposed to sign some documents so a trial could start, but the paperwork never came, so Moash's grandparents died in prison. 

 

While Elhokar could be blamed for not remembering there were people waiting for trial, a ruler has advisers and other people who are supposed to assist him and bring such matters to his attention. I personally do not think it was reasonable to expect Elhokar to keep a track on everything that was going on in Kholinar (especially since men can't read, so he had to rely on scribes who can be bribed easily). There were many people who should have brought up again the case of the Moash's grandparents to Elhokar before it was too late, but noone did. 

[maxal Dawnshard]

Well, Kal lost the family he found for himself and his little brother because of Amaram, so really had noone left to protect unlike Adolin. Kal wanted justice, not revenge. He never went for revenge. It made no sense to me when he agreed to help assassinate Elhokar, but didn't even think about killing Amaram. Since Amaram did what he did to Kal, it's likely he won't hesitate to do other bad things to other innocent people. I don't understand your desire to make Kal look bad is comparison to Adolin. Adolin is still wonderful and fascinating.

 

I have always interpreted Kaladin desire to confront Amaram as one of vengeance. It is true, however we could read it as a desire for justice. And he was getting it, at the end, although I do believe Dalinar's intention to bring Amaram to justice will fall short in upcoming book.

 

To be honest with you, I am not entirely sure what my intentions are I must admit I have a tendency to scream black when someone scream white And I also believe bringing both situations neck to neck helps putting them into perspective. I do think that if Kal had went forward in his idea to kill both Amaram and Elhokar, it would have been a worst crime then Adolin and I still think it is unfair Kaladin's implication in the plot to assassinate Elhokar should go unpunished.

 

Of course Adolin is fascinating He is our (my) favorite wildcard character. He is Brandon opportunity to show us the "journey before destination". All other characters we have met have already reached their destination. We get to see their journey through their flashbacks. We know what happened to them before reading about it, we just did not know how. Adolin, we have no idea where he is heading and it will be great to see him fall while not knowing if he'll managed to get up.

 

 

Adolin wants revenge/ vengence for what happened at the tower as well. What Kal wants is retribution for Amaram killing his friends, i dont see how you can say Kal is wrong and Adolin is right.

 anyone

 

Not really. He has never spoken in such terms. Adolin wants to keep his father safe and anyone who threatens Dalinar goes on his black list. He hatred of Sadeas started this way: he spoke badly of Dalinar. It is only when Sadeas utter more threats against Dalinar that Adolin goes bad. He is not out for revenge, he is out to protect daddy and daddy is the uber greatest person in the entire universe so....

 

 

Its still Elhokars fault, being ignorant, naive or too trusting isnt an excuse for causing the deaths of two elderly people, morally Moash was right for wanting retribution, i dont think that can be questioned, did Elhokar deseve to die for it? no, but was the only justice Moash could ever get, because he was a lighteyes and a king,

 

Elhokar was a 19 years old boy who was left, alone, in charge of a kingdom. He was ill-prepared for this task as I suspect nobody took time to really train him to be a leader, much unlike Dalinar does with Adolin. Heck, Adolin is 22 and Dalinar is barely starting to leave him in charge of things and he has spent the better part of the last 6 years trailing behind Dalinar and learning the perks of being Highprince.

 

To leave Elhokar alone was irresponsible, but he has advisers and it happens one of them was Roshone. Trusting him was a honest mistake and frankly do you really think the king would oversee what happens to a couple of elderly people who gets thrown into prison? There must hundreds of people in the prison, the king cannot see to them all: he has people to do this. He had no reason to look into that matter and as far as I understood, it fell within the cracks. They died. Horrible, but young Elhokar should not take the fall for this. It was a failure of his administration, not him.

[Aleksiel Returned]

I have always interpreted Kaladin desire to confront Amaram as one of vengeance. It is true, however we could read it as a desire for justice. And he was getting it, at the end, although I do believe Dalinar's intention to bring Amaram to justice will fall short in upcoming book.

 

To be honest with you, I am not entirely sure what my intentions are I must admit I have a tendency to scream black when someone scream white And I also believe bringing both situations neck to neck helps putting them into perspective. I do think that if Kal had went forward in his idea to kill both Amaram and Elhokar, it would have been a worst crime then Adolin and I still think it is unfair Kaladin's implication in the plot to assassinate Elhokar should go unpunished.

 

Of course Adolin is fascinating He is our (my) favorite wildcard character. He is Brandon opportunity to show us the "journey before destination". All other characters we have met have already reached their destination. We get to see their journey through their flashbacks. We know what happened to them before reading about it, we just did not know how. Adolin, we have no idea where he is heading and it will be great to see him fall while not knowing if he'll managed to get up.

 

 I never saw it as vengeance, because Kal went for all legal means available to him - telling Dalinar so he can investigate and challenging Amaram to a duel. It is true he had thought about just going to Amaram and killing him, but I believe most people would have had the same thoughts and thinking about a crime isn't the same as committing it.

 

I actually expect there to be consequences for Kal about being involved in the plot of Ehokar's assassination. He left before the subject was brought up and currently nobody in Urithiru knows, but Kal will have to explain it sooner or later. He might be a Radiant now, but so is Dalinar. I wonder if Kal will be sentenced. He swore to never let anyone imprison him ever again, but he did commit a crime. But he also stopped the same crime. The crime that wouldn't have been possible without his help. Hmmm.... We need Nin over here.

[maxal Dawnshard]

 I never saw it as vengeance, because Kal went for all legal means available to him - telling Dalinar so he can investigate and challenging Amaram to a duel. It is true he had thought about just going to Amaram and killing him, but I believe most people would have had the same thoughts and thinking about a crime isn't the same as committing it.

 

I actually expect there to be consequences for Kal about being involved in the plot of Ehokar's assassination. He left before the subject was brought up and currently nobody in Urithiru knows, but Kal will have to explain it sooner or later. He might be a Radiant now, but so is Dalinar. I wonder if Kal will be sentenced. He swore to never let anyone imprison him ever again, but he did commit a crime. But he also stopped the same crime. The crime that wouldn't have been possible without his help. Hmmm.... We need Nin over here.

 

Yeah and we must not forget he purposely gave out very valuable shards to a known traitor. He also knew about Moash involvement in the plot to kill the king and he failed to report him or to deal with him appropriately. Basically, he chose to protect one of his men over the men he was hired to protect. He has shown his fealty lied with the bridgemen before all and if he ever has to chose again, he'll chose them over the Kohlin family.

[Aleksiel Returned]

Yeah and we must not forget he purposely gave out very valuable shards to a known traitor. He also knew about Moash involvement in the plot to kill the king and he failed to report him or to deal with him appropriately. Basically, he chose to protect one of his men over the men he was hired to protect. He has shown his fealty lied with the bridgemen before all and if he ever has to chose again, he'll chose them over the Kohlin family.

 

He gave the shards to his best friend, who had promised him to not be involved in an assassination plot anymore. I personally don't fault Kal for giving Moash shards. Yes, it was stupid, no I don't think Kal deserves a punishment over it. He gave Moash the Shards as part of the assassination plot he involved himself in, so it adds to that. I understand why Kal is more loyal to his fellow bridgemen and frankly I don't blame him for that. Dalinar had already told him he was 'plain wrong' about Amaram and Elhokar is not exactly a person inspiring loyalty, whereas Moash saved his life, was with him during one of the worst of Kal's life and became his best friend. 

[Zinfandale Darkeyes]

Adolin was ABSOLUTELY justified in his murder of Sadeas.

Why: Adolin was not the aggressor. He did not initiate force. Sadeas did. Sadeas abandoned and betrayed thousands of innocent "allies". He had been working profusely to undermine, disrupt, and wreck the Alethi political and social construct and had been more than willing to use force to achieve these ends, as we've seen.

It is not right to *initiate* the use of force. It is right to meet force, with force. If you don't deal with evil, evil will deal with you, without regret or mercy.

[sadeas's face darkened. "I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries.]

He even admitted he would continue his destruction. You do not let such wickedness persist. You eliminate it. Justice and fair prosecution is irrelevant in the face of evil.

Adolin was right. There is no conflict (in rightness) between the actions of Kaladin and those of Adolin. Kaladin was the protector. Adolin the preventer. Both using force to meet force. Justified and right.

[Savanorn High Prelan]

I guess there were no good ways to deal with Sadeas....

 

Option 1) Dalinar declares Sadeas a traitor and a criminal. He insist on retribution and on a trial.

Result 1) The Sadeas and their allies go to open war with the Kohlins. The Kohlins had literally no allies left at that point and are forced to fight back superior forces. Alethki as a kingdom falls. House Kohlin is force to retreat to their princedom and try to defend it as best as they can. Desolation destroys Alethkar.

 

Option 2) They find a way to kill Sadeas legally. Oh wait, they did. They organized an entire set-up to force Sadeas to duel Adolin. The plan is risky, Adolin has to win against two and then win by killing Sadeas. A hard one, but they were out-thought. Luckily, Kaladin saves the day, but destroy House Kohlin's only chance to duel Sadeas.

Result 2) They won't have a second chance at this. There only other way is to hope Sadeas will get killed in a battle.

 

Option 3) They decide to have Sadeas discretely murdered. Dalinar finds an assassin, a good and respectable Alethki way to eliminate scums.

Result 3) Dalinar does not have the bone for it and it is against his Code. He will never go for such a plan, too bad.

 

Option 4) Do nothing. Let it go, keep trying to be a politician.

Result 4) Sadeas spreads lies that undermine Dalinar authority. He found a lost city, but he claims to be a feared and despised Radiant. People will move away from him as they will think it is all a ploy, especially with all his entourage following him into Radianhood. Sadeas will not stop, he will work to destroy Dalinar and yes he will launch a war against house Kohlin.

 

Dalinar does not want to prosecute nor assassinate Sades so what other option did they have? None. He can't keep on ignoring him, he has to deal with him, but he won't use the means he has. Basically, his hands are tied which is why what Adolin did was a good thing, a needed thing, but poorly executed. Sadly, it puts poor Adolin on the chopping block, our one expendable Kohlin

 

Good evening. 

 

First of all, pretty much exactly.  The problem is that Sadeas is a bad guy, but he's also powerful, short of killing him there's not very many safe methods for dealing with him. Even if the end of WoR proves his support was not as solid as it could have been, even if there were neutral highprinces, as you say...he's just too powerful to try to deal with legally...well...by trial. 

 

1. Exactly. Either the Alethi fall apart fighting each other (which is what I think Taravangian thought could happen) and thus can't resist the Desolation, or the Kholins outright lose and the Kingdom is broken. 

 

2. Pretty much. I am of mixed feelings here...on one hand they wouldn't have won without Kaladin, on the other he blew their main goal. But this was realy the only legal approach available. 

 

3. Even more exactly. Legal options were exhausted, and Sadeas needs to die.  

 

4. Well, this is really the problem. Sadeas has thousands of soldiers and is capable, famous and powerful enough that as long as he is alive, he will be a threat. He can't be left to undermine what remains, or to provide a weakpont in the Alethi fortress. 

 

That is really the big problem, I feel like Adolin was certainly in the right, but he chose a dubious way to go about it. I just hope it isn't the cause of senseless drama, because... as we know...humanity can't afford it anymore.

 

Good evening.   

[Aleksiel Returned]

Did Sadeas have any allies left? He depended on Aladar, who joined Dalinar in the end. So dealing with Sadeas in a trial doesn't seem impossible to accomplish. Well, it is impossible now that Sadeas is dead, but you get whet I meant hopefully.

 

I thought it was doable to isolate Sadeas politically now that he had noone left on his side and the Kholins were proven right and rehabilitated in alethi society. I don't think the Kholins gain any immediate advantage now that Sadeas is gone. He would have been a problem in the long run or not depending on how they chose to handle the current situation, but now they won't get the chance to outsmart him.

 

Killing Sadeas doesn't crush him. His reputation remains, his men are loyal, he could be turned into a martyr. The correct way would have been to do the same he tried to pull on Dalinar: undermine his authority, ruin his reputation, humiliate him until he's politically crippled. That way others might have found a way to take advantage of his weakness and seize the power of his Highprince title for themselves.

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

I think whether or not it was "right" to kill Sadeus is largely up to what "lense" we chose to view the action through. Purely by Alethi laws it was wrong. Purely by Skybreaker ideals it was wrong. Purely by Windbreaker ideals it was wrong (due to HOW it was done, not the REASON), purely by dustbringer or nameless order of radiants Brandon mentioned it was right. By Elsecallers I would also hazard it was right. I think it can easily be seen to be honorable to kill evil wherever it is found. Yes evil is a very subjective concept, but given the form the orders take, it is very easy to see one such order viewing Sadeus as evil and Adolin being honorable in taking his life. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Pathfinder

[maxal Dawnshard]

Did Sadeas have any allies left? He depended on Aladar, who joined Dalinar in the end. So dealing with Sadeas in a trial doesn't seem impossible to accomplish. Well, it is impossible now that Sadeas is dead, but you get whet I meant hopefully.

 

I thought it was doable to isolate Sadeas politically now that he had noone left on his side and the Kholins were proven right and rehabilitated in alethi society. I don't think the Kholins gain any immediate advantage now that Sadeas is gone. He would have been a problem in the long run or not depending on how they chose to handle the current situation, but now they won't get the chance to outsmart him.

 

Killing Sadeas doesn't crush him. His reputation remains, his men are loyal, he could be turned into a martyr. The correct way would have been to do the same he tried to pull on Dalinar: undermine his authority, ruin his reputation, humiliate him until he's politically crippled. That way others might have found a way to take advantage of his weakness and seize the power of his Highprince title for themselves.

 

Dalinar managed to grab Aladar, Roion and Sebrarial as allies. Ruthar is another very powerfull house who backs Sadeas and since Adolin not only humiliated Ruthar's elder son and his nephew, he took their shards away. It is a pretty safe bet to think they would never willingly back Dalinar. Jakamav was from that house as well if I recall properly. I am quite sure they will want vengeance.

 

There's Vamah, Thanadal, Hatham and Bethab who may or may not back Sadeas. They were not willing to range behind Dalinar before, who's to say they will now?

[Savanorn High Prelan]

Did Sadeas have any allies left? He depended on Aladar, who joined Dalinar in the end. So dealing with Sadeas in a trial doesn't seem impossible to accomplish. Well, it is impossible now that Sadeas is dead, but you get whet I meant hopefully.

 

I thought it was doable to isolate Sadeas politically now that he had noone left on his side and the Kholins were proven right and rehabilitated in alethi society. I don't think the Kholins gain any immediate advantage now that Sadeas is gone. He would have been a problem in the long run or not depending on how they chose to handle the current situation, but now they won't get the chance to outsmart him.

 

Killing Sadeas doesn't crush him. His reputation remains, his men are loyal, he could be turned into a martyr. The correct way would have been to do the same he tried to pull on Dalinar: undermine his authority, ruin his reputation, humiliate him until he's politically crippled. That way others might have found a way to take advantage of his weakness and seize the power of his Highprince title for themselves.

 

Well, just throwing this out there, but joining Dalinar to fulfill the Vengeance Pact, with Sebarial and Roion with Dalinar, is different from outright joining Dalinar against Sadeas. Don't get me wrong, Aladar doesn't like Sadeas and I think by Sadeas' death he might be convinced...but I don't know how much of these things are certain. 

 

Also I think Sadeas still has Ruthar. Arguable since the man is a well-known coward and Dalinar does gain some vital political capital by finding Urithiru and defeating the Parshendi, but at the same time from what I saw the fighting was bloody and I'd warrant that Dalinar and his faction lost a lot of men, it depends how many people they can persuade to be active supporters of the crown. Basically, if his political capital can make up for real losses of men.    

 

Doesn't it? Sadeas' men don't seem to be paragons of loyalty to me. I'd be more inclined to think that if he died his men would tear themselves apart competing for the title of Highprince...which seems to be what you think would happen anyway? 

 

For a long time it was Dalinar V Sadeas and co, now Dalinar has allies which is a good thing...I'm not sure if he has enough allies though. I also don't think we'll be able to know until SA 3, if we find that Urithiru and the Vengeance pact has united the Highprinces, then that'll settle it. If it is just Dalinar and Aladar with an apathetic mob of highprinces...we'll know, if it is another scenario...we'll know. 

 

I think whether or not it was "right" to kill Sadeus is largely up to what "lense" we chose to view the action through. Purely by Alethi laws it was wrong. Purely by Skybreaker ideals it was wrong. Purely by Windbreaker ideals it was wrong (due to HOW it was done, not the REASON), purely by dustbringer or nameless order of radiants Brandon mentioned it was right. By Elsecallers I would also hazard it was right. I think it can easily be seen to be honorable to kill evil wherever it is found. Yes evil is a very subjective concept, but given the form the orders take, it is very easy to see one such order viewing Sadeus as evil and Adolin being honorable in taking his life. 

 

I don't know about the Skybreakers? Sadeas is a war criminal, and killing him would seem to be just. Even if not for the things we've seen, he's had a warlord's life to rack up some crimes. 

Basically, according to Nalan's logic with Ym, I'd disagree (as he could just walk in and kill a man for a crime decades old)...according to his conduct with Lift I might be inclined to agree (as he needed specific papers and authorities.)

 

 

Dalinar managed to grab Aladar, Roion and Sebrarial as allies. Ruthar is another very powerfull house who backs Sadeas and since Adolin not only humiliated Ruthar's elder son and his nephew, he took their shards away. It is a pretty safe bet to think they would never willingly back Dalinar. Jakamav was from that house as well if I recall properly. I am quite sure they will want vengeance.

 

There's Vamah, Thanadal, Hatham and Bethab who may or may not back Sadeas. They were not willing to range behind Dalinar before, who's to say they will now?

 

Just an aside, but Jakamav is of Roion, I think. 

[Chrono King's Tester]

Jakamav is of Roion's house. As for the whole houses thing, I'm ultimately more concerned about Ialai. That woman has her fingers in everything. She managed to make duelists (by her admission, a wild and unpredictable sort) of all houses and camps refused to fight Adolin based solely on rumor and bribery. Ialai is very good at manipulating people. That's why Sadeas uses her the way he does (or did, rather, considering he's rather dead). She's pretty much an anti-Navani, if you think about it. 

 

Ruthar was a strong supporter of Sadeas, and he's a very powerful highprince. I can totally see Ialai using this to her advantage. The other Highprinces are pretty much swing states. One problem is that Dalinar and Navani are understandably distracted with Urithiru and exploring it. When Sadeas's murder shows up, they'll be completely off guard while Ialai's probably had a while to plan out a suitable attack reference.

 

However, I feel that this problem will eventually go away when Voidbringers start appearing in massive numbers, so it all might blow over.

[Fatebreaker Most Ancient]

I guess it was wrong for Adolin to kill that slimy son of a dehydrated camel, but it felt so right...

[hoser Elantrian]

So what is the problem with what Adolin did?

No trial?  Trials are to protect the innocent.  Sadeas is guilty of murder (the assassination attempt on Dalinar) and is planning a coup where he will murder Elhokar (treason).  We have his point of view and it is clear that he is under Odium's influence. 

 

Yeah, he could get in trouble for it and he may have an opportunity for moral growth because his motives may not have belched rainbows, but the lack of a trial seems like the least of the issues.  Sadeas is even guiltier than Adolin knows. 

[WeiryWriter Prime]

I don't know about the Skybreakers? Sadeas is a war criminal, and killing him would seem to be just. Even if not for the things we've seen, he's had a warlord's life to rack up some crimes. 

Basically, according to Nalan's logic with Ym, I'd disagree (as he could just walk in and kill a man for a crime decades old)...according to his conduct with Lift I might be inclined to agree (as he needed specific papers and authorities.)

 

It is WoB that the Skybreakers would not approve of Adolin killing Sadeas, because he technically broke the law (which is kind of their thing).  Neither Windrunners nor Skybreakers will take him now, though Dustbringers and Willshapers would.

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

It is WoB that the Skybreakers would not approve of Adolin killing Sadeas, because he technically broke the law (which is kind of their thing).  Neither Windrunners nor Skybreakers will take him now, though Dustbringers and Willshapers would.

What Weiry said, plus the fact that by Alethi law, Sadeus didn't break any laws. At least none that Dalinar could prove unless he went to war over it, which is why Dalinar didn't pursue it. 

[hoser Elantrian]

An interesting argument. The more I think about Skybreakers, the confuseder I get.

What Weiry said, plus the fact that by Alethi law, Sadeus didn't break any laws. At least none that Dalinar could prove unless he went to war over it, which is why Dalinar didn't pursue it. 

Sadeas definitely broke Alethi law by setting Ialai's assassins on Dalinar. 

Compare Nale's treatment of Ym to Adolin's treatment of Sadeas.

Ym's crime: accomplice (possibly unwitting) to murder.

Sadeas's crime: Ordering an attempted murder of a highprince, plotting a coup that includes the death of the king (treason).

Adolin's infraction: Unlawful murder

Nale's action: Unlawful murder (does anyone think that Iri law would condone what Nale did?)

Exculpation: Dalinar couldn't prove it without going to war

But wait.  Could Nale prove Ym's guilt?

 

I don't get the Skybreakers. 

[Moogle Voidbringer]

Nale's action: Unlawful murder (does anyone think that Iri law would condone what Nale did?)

 

Nale got an execution warrant for a thief, so I definitely think he was able to legally kill Ym. Rosharan law is pretty... medieval.

 

Sadeas definitely broke Alethi law by setting Ialai's assassins on Dalinar. 

 

But Adolin didn't know that, from my understanding, and he certainly wasn't killing Sadeas out of a desire to uphold the law, which is why he's still unacceptable for the Skybreakers. And I don't think you're allowed to take matters into your own hands as a Skybreaker without legal authority to do so - Nale is apparently a real, genuine member of the police-equivalent of Azir (he's called a constable). I imagine he's also managed to get a similar position in Iri. Adolin has no such position, and Sadeas outranks him, so he could not legally kill Sadeas.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

An interesting argument. The more I think about Skybreakers, the confuseder I get.

Sadeas definitely broke Alethi law by setting Ialai's assassins on Dalinar. 

Compare Nale's treatment of Ym to Adolin's treatment of Sadeas.

Ym's crime: accomplice (possibly unwitting) to murder.

Sadeas's crime: Ordering an attempted murder of a highprince, plotting a coup that includes the death of the king (treason).

Adolin's infraction: Unlawful murder

Nale's action: Unlawful murder (does anyone think that Iri law would condone what Nale did?)

Exculpation: Dalinar couldn't prove it without going to war

But wait.  Could Nale prove Ym's guilt?

 

I don't get the Skybreakers. 

I did say he didn't break any laws that Dalinar could prove. WE know Sadeus sent the assassins. Dalinar and everyone loyal to him knows. But where is the smoking gun pointing to Sadeus? I am just taking purely from a legal perspective, which from what I understand, is how Skybreakers operate. But I will give you that that is my own interpretation/assumption. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Pathfinder

[maxal Dawnshard]

Jakamav is of Roion's house. As for the whole houses thing, I'm ultimately more concerned about Ialai. That woman has her fingers in everything. She managed to make duelists (by her admission, a wild and unpredictable sort) of all houses and camps refused to fight Adolin based solely on rumor and bribery. Ialai is very good at manipulating people. That's why Sadeas uses her the way he does (or did, rather, considering he's rather dead). She's pretty much an anti-Navani, if you think about it. 

 

Ruthar was a strong supporter of Sadeas, and he's a very powerful highprince. I can totally see Ialai using this to her advantage. The other Highprinces are pretty much swing states. One problem is that Dalinar and Navani are understandably distracted with Urithiru and exploring it. When Sadeas's murder shows up, they'll be completely off guard while Ialai's probably had a while to plan out a suitable attack reference.

 

However, I feel that this problem will eventually go away when Voidbringers start appearing in massive numbers, so it all might blow over.

 

Thanks for the tip about Jakamav. I have always (wrongly) placed him with house Ruthar. I am surprised then Roion agreed to Dalinar's plan. Not only is he a known cowards, but he lost shards to Adolin. Do we know from which houses were the others duelists Adolin defeated (humiliated)? Albeit, the worst are the Ruthar who lost not once, but thrice.

 

Ialai is definitely planning something. At the beginning of WoR, she mentions to Sadeas how she has planted many of her spies within the servants of house Kohlins. At the end of WoR, there is the messenger that comes for her and her response to Sadeas's question was: "You are going (or not going I can't recall) to like this". She was up to something and I can't wait to see what it is. Of course, she is targeting house Kohlin, but who and how, we don't know.

 

I think it'll eventually blow over, but not before Adolin is taken down into the dirt.