Sadaes

[TousenShadowForged]

forgive me if i spelled his name wrong but y do some think adolin killing him was wrong the man was beyond reason even with the truth right  b4 his eyes      

 

in book 1 i did not despise him until the "betrayel" on Dalinarand his use of the bridgemen

 

most of his actions hav led to the moment to where he needed to die  i even cheered when adolin killed him

sadaes not dead he would constantly impede kal and the others plans now his wife probably  will strive  for revenge  but sadeas out of the way will make things a little easier and adolin does not need to repent or feel bad for what he did 

[Quiver]

It was wrong because it was vigilante justice, and because Brandon set up this exact same scenario earlier in the book and said it was wrong.

 

The situation with Sadeas is similar to the one with Amaram, and to a lesser extent Elhokar. Both were villains whose actions led to destruction, and neither of them were willing to change to confront the larger issue. And when Kal demanded vengance on Amaram, Dalinar's response was clear: he would be tried and pay for his crimes, fairly.

 

Sadeas wasn't offered that. Yes, he is an unpleasant person, and the POV we had of him made it clear he was acting in his own self-interest, mocked up as 'for the good of Alethkar'. But you don't just decide that, because you don't like someone, that makes them fair targets for execution without due process.

 

Had Sadeas been tried for his crimes, found guilty by Elhokar and executed... things would have been different. That didn't happen. Instead, he was murdered.

And the way that happened, Adolin finding him, alone and killing him, was wrong. It may have been an act of passion (at least partly)... but it was still wrong. At least in my eyes.

 

Doing what's right doesn't mean doing it sometimes, or doing it to people you don't hate. That's what the third ideal of the Windrunners is all about; that even the people we despise should be protected if the situation calls for it. Yes, Sadeas would have caused trouble further down the line. Yes, he was a terrible human being. But when Moash was going to kill Elhokar, Kaladin stopped it. Because letting Moash kill Elhokar would have been wrong.

 

Just like Adolin killing Sadeas was wrong.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Quiver

[Chrono]

Exactly. I was actually very disturbed by what Adolin did. If he'd been tried by an Alethi court and found guilty, I wouldn't have cared in the slightest. But Adolin killing him is very much a step backward in his character development, and I think something he will very much regret in the coming books. I would say that Moash killing Elhokar would be worse, because that's premeditated murder. However, Adolin is not the least excused. I was disappointed in him when I read that, and I really hope that this whole experience helps him get good character development.

[kari-no-sugata]

I'm sure there'll been many views on this. Here's mine: I think Dalinar failed on the "strength before weakness" part of the First Ideal - he's effectively the most powerful person in the land but in practice he fails to stand up to Sadeas properly. Sadeas is opposing the Crown which makes him a traitor. His actions have caused the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Yes the situation was difficult but Dailinar should still have done more and made it clear that Sadeas is a criminal and that such actions will not be tolerated.

 

The obvious problem though is how to do that without causing a civil war - which would fail on the "life before death" part of the First Ideal. Arguably Shallan's plan to trap Sadeas with the King's Boon was the best solution... which begs the question why Dalinar never thought of this himself, particularly since he name-drops Yenev early on. My personal feeling is that he was reluctant to prosecute his "old friend". Or alternatively that he is over-compensating for his warlord days.

 

So if those who should act do not then what can you do? That's how I see Adolin's situation. He's tried to do what he legally can. He tries to ignore Sadeas and walk away. It didn't work and now Sedeas is back to being an imminent threat to him, his family, Shallan, his soldiers and peace. I don't blame him for snapping.

 

 

I thought Brandon said it pretty well

Q:  What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?
A:  I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

 

[maxal]

It was wrong because it was vigilante justice, and because Brandon set up this exact same scenario earlier in the book and said it was wrong.

 

The situation with Sadeas is similar to the one with Amaram, and to a lesser extent Elhokar. Both were villains whose actions led to destruction, and neither of them were willing to change to confront the larger issue. And when Kal demanded vengance on Amaram, Dalinar's response was clear: he would be tried and pay for his crimes, fairly.

 

I disagree. Yes, Brandon has brought forward Amaram and Elhokar to show us how killing them would have been bad, but it is not the same thing at all! Amaram has committed crimes which demands punishment. Now should this punishment be death or should he be dispensed by Kaladin? No or maybe for the death part, but it was not Kal to be the judge of that. As for Elhokar, he is mostly guilty of being a bad king and at the time of the deed, he was not even king! He tried to show compassion, hardly a crime. Again, it was not for Kal nor Moash to pass judgement. Elhokar did not deserve to die. Amaram, maybe, but the fact remains that, unlike Sadeas, Amaram was NOT a direct threat. Amaram did not plot to destroy the whole kingdom nor did he try to assassinate important people nor did he abandon an army of 10 000 to a sure death.

 

It does not compare at all. Killing both Amaram and Elhokar would have been wrong for Kaladin, but killing Sadeas was right for Adolin. Sadeas would have cause the death of thousand more people, he pretty much declared war to the Kholins in his last talk with Adolin. Adolin is not bound in honor and its endless rules like Kaladin and Dalinar. Adolin is an intuitive person who pretty much follows his heart/emotion when reacting to events and he turns out doing the right thing most of the time.

 

What is right to kill Sadeas? Yes, it was. Now the how is not the best, I agree. It speaks badly of Adolin, especially since he pretty much lost control of himself at that moment, but he still did the right thing. It will come back to bite him, it will most likely bring him down, because of Dalinar, not because of the act in itself.

 

It will also for great character growth as Adolin will have to learn to control his emotions and his impulsive nature. He will have to learn not to act upon it, to obey more to the code of life and to decide when it is warranted to go after the baddy and when it isn't. Imo, he will be a good little Dustbringer someday

 

 

Doing what's right doesn't mean doing it sometimes, or doing it to people you don't hate. That's what the third ideal of the Windrunners is all about; that even the people we despise should be protected if the situation calls for it. Yes, Sadeas would have caused trouble further down the line. Yes, he was a terrible human being. But when Moash was going to kill Elhokar, Kaladin stopped it. Because letting Moash kill Elhokar would have been wrong.

 

Just like Adolin killing Sadeas was wrong.

 

It was wrong for the Windrunners, but Sadeas certainly does not require any protection. He had threaten to launch a civil war: you do not protect tyrants! You execute them.

[maxal]

I'm sure there'll been many views on this. Here's mine: I think Dalinar failed on the "strength before weakness" part of the First Ideal - he's effectively the most powerful person in the land but in practice he fails to stand up to Sadeas properly. Sadeas is opposing the Crown which makes him a traitor. His actions have caused the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people. Yes the situation was difficult but Dailinar should still have done more and made it clear that Sadeas is a criminal and that such actions will not be tolerated.

 

The obvious problem though is how to do that without causing a civil war - which would fail on the "life before death" part of the First Ideal. Arguably Shallan's plan to trap Sadeas with the King's Boon was the best solution... which begs the question why Dalinar never thought of this himself, particularly since he name-drops Yenev early on. My personal feeling is that he was reluctant to prosecute his "old friend". Or alternatively that he is over-compensating for his warlord days.

 

So if those who should act do not then what can you do? That's how I see Adolin's situation. He's tried to do what he legally can. He tries to ignore Sadeas and walk away. It didn't work and now Sedeas is back to being an imminent threat to him, his family, Shallan, his soldiers and peace. I don't blame him for snapping.

 

 

I thought Brandon said it pretty well

 

I so agree with you! Dalinar's failure to deal properly with Sadeas will cause his own son's downfall. I also wonder how it is Dalinar is not more mad and Kaladin/Elhokar for making the duel plot fail pathetically. Adolin did try to prosecute Sadeas the legal way, he did try to ignore him, to walk away, nothing would work.

 

In regards to the WoB, I have noticed people tend to forgive Jasnah more easily than Adolin. Why is that? Because of the brutality of the murder as opposed to Jasnah's display?

[Moogle]

Amaram did not plot to destroy the whole kingdom nor did he try to assassinate important people nor did he abandon an army of 10 000 to a sure death.

 

Sorry for ignoring the rest of your post, but this stuck out to me.

 

Amaram is/was literally plotting to destroy the whole world. He's been working to bring a Desolation for quite some time. 9/10 people died in a previous Desolation, and it sounds like this one is going to be really bad with no Heralds and few Radiants. Amaram's crime is far worse than anything Sadeas has done.

[maxal]

Sorry for ignoring the rest of your post, but this stuck out to me.

 

Amaram is/was literally plotting to destroy the whole world. He's been working to bring a Desolation for quite some time. 9/10 people died in a previous Desolation, and it sounds like this one is going to be really bad with no Heralds and few Radiants. Amaram's crime is far worse than anything Sadeas has done.

 

Yes, but nobody knows this. Kaladin does not know, Dalinar does not know, Adolin does not know. As far as they know, Amaram is not a threat. To kill on the basis he works for the Sons of Honors when you know next to nothing of this organization nor their true end game would be wrong wrong wrong.

 

Kaladin wanted to kill Amaram not because he was a dangerous person who put life of others at risk, but because he wanted revenge.

 

Adolin did NOT kill Sadeas out of revenge, but out of desire to protect his family and his country. It is only when Sadeas uttered threats against Dalinar that Adolin snaps. He did not do it for HIMSELF, unlike Kal's intention who were purely personal, but for the sake of others.

 

Bottom line, Kal was wrong: Adolin was right.

[Aleksiel]

Yes, but nobody knows this. Kaladin does not know, Dalinar does not know, Adolin does not know. As far as they know, Amaram is not a threat. To kill on the basis he works for the Sons of Honors when you know next to nothing of this organization nor their true end game would be wrong wrong wrong.

 

Kaladin wanted to kill Amaram not because he was a dangerous person who put life of others at risk, but because he wanted revenge.

 

Adolin did NOT kill Sadeas out of revenge, but out of desire to protect his family and his country. It is only when Sadeas uttered threats against Dalinar that Adolin snaps. He did not do it for HIMSELF, unlike Kal's intention who were purely personal, but for the sake of others.

 

Bottom line, Kal was wrong: Adolin was right.

 

Kal was wrong about what exactly? He tried to duel Amaram, but never to assassinate him. He didn't even think to 'accidentally' make him trip into a chasm, not enough imagination for that. 

 

Anyway, it's not right to kill anyone without a trial just because you've already sentenced them in your mind. Adolin didn't kill Sadeas for revenge or for what he did, no. Adolin killed Sadeas for what he might do.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

Kal was wrong about what exactly? He tried to duel Amaram, but never to assassinate him. He didn't even think to 'accidentally' make him trip into a chasm, not enough imagination for that. 

 

Anyway, it's not right to kill anyone without a trial just because you've already sentenced them in your mind. Adolin didn't kill Sadeas for revenge or for what he did, no. Adolin killed Sadeas for what he might do.

 

He thought many times over on how he would kill him, he urged to kill him each time he saw him... I agree however, he never took concrete actions towards this goal, but he did crave for it, much more than Adolin was craving to kill Sadeas.

 

It is not right, legally speaking, but for people and life in general, it was a good thing. Society would not trial Sadeas nor punish him for his crime: assassination is all that was left.

[Aleksiel]

He thought many times over on how he would kill him, he urged to kill him each time he saw him... I agree however, he never took concrete actions towards this goal, but he did crave for it, much more than Adolin was craving to kill Sadeas.

 

It is not right, legally speaking, but for people and life in general, it was a good thing. Society would not trial Sadeas nor punish him for his crime: assassination is all that was left.

 

Kal was wrong to think about killing Sadeas, you judge him for that? I really see no reason to compare one guy's thoughts to another's actions. Adolin takes no moral high ground here. He killed Sadeas for what he probably would have done in the future, not as some act of serving justice.

[maxal]

Kal was wrong to think about killing Sadeas, you judge him for that? I really see no reason to compare one guy's thoughts to another's actions. Adolin takes no moral high ground here. He killed Sadeas for what he probably would have done in the future, not as some act of serving justice.

 

True, but my point is that Adolin did not seek revenge whereas Kal did. Kal planned a cold blooded first degree murder, the worst kind. Adolin got overwhelmed and did the world a favor by killing Sadeas. I agree it was just threats, but threats by Sadeas should not be taken lightly. If another the prime minister of another nation utters threats to yourself, are you going to ignore it? Albeit, it was wrong for Adolin to behave like he did, but the end result was a good thing. The wrong part in his actions are not the fact he killed Sadeas, but the fact he lost control over himself and succumb to anger and hate.

 

Personally, I believe Kal encouraging the unwarranted murder of Elhokar and thus giving shards to a known traitor to be a much more worst crime than Adolin losing his mind and killing a men who was threatening his whole nation. The only reason Kal got away with it is he ha  a moment of wisdom before it was too late, but he is still guilty of having associate himself with such persons and of losing powerful shards.

[Aleksiel]

True, but my point is that Adolin did not seek revenge whereas Kal did. Kal planned a cold blooded first degree murder, the worst kind. Adolin got overwhelmed and did the world a favor by killing Sadeas. I agree it was just threats, but threats by Sadeas should not be taken lightly. If another the prime minister of another nation utters threats to yourself, are you going to ignore it? Albeit, it was wrong for Adolin to behave like he did, but the end result was a good thing. The wrong part in his actions are not the fact he killed Sadeas, but the fact he lost control over himself and succumb to anger and hate.

 

Personally, I believe Kal encouraging the unwarranted murder of Elhokar and thus giving shards to a known traitor to be a much more worst crime than Adolin losing his mind and killing a men who was threatening his whole nation. The only reason Kal got away with it is he ha  a moment of wisdom before it was too late, but he is still guilty of having associate himself with such persons and of losing powerful shards.

 

So, you change your argument against Kal, from Amaram to Moash? I agree he should have handled the situation differently, but that changes nothing about Adolin's actions.

 

Dalinar is working so hard towards unity and here you compare Sadeas to another country's prime minister   I really don't see the he-threatened-to-spread-nasty-rumors as a reason to kill Sadeas. What makes it wrong is precisely the fact Adolin killed Sadeas. It makes little difference whether it was in cold blood or rage, the result is the same.

[maxal]

So, you change your argument against Kal, from Amaram to Moash? I agree he should have handled the situation differently, but that changes nothing about Adolin's actions.

 

 

Did I? I am confused. Have I lost myself in my rambling? Quite possibly

 

 

Dalinar is working so hard towards unity and here you compare Sadeas to another country's prime minister   I really don't see the he-threatened-to-spread-nasty-rumors as a reason to kill Sadeas. What makes it wrong is precisely the fact Adolin killed Sadeas. It makes little difference whether it was in cold blood or rage, the result is the same.

 

All the princedoms are more or less independent, therefore yes I would compare Sadeas to a prime minister. He has to authority to launch a full scale civil war and he has the resources for it.

 

I am not saying it was a full-proof reason, I am just saying it was Adolin's reason. He snapped right when he understood nothing would ever get them rid of Sadeas then killing him. It was murder and yes, by definition, murder is condemnable. However, if we are to discuss of reasons to murder someone, I believe Adolin had a much better case than Kal or Moash ever did. The later wanted revenge, plain and simple. They were concerned about the dead whereas Adolin was concerned about the living. To me, it makes a huge difference. To he end result is still murder but, in my view, Kal is guilty of a nearly equal crime which is plotting to assassinate a king who did not deserve it. Kal will suffer no consequences simply because the plot failed, but in real life, conspiracy is nearly as punishable as murdering itself. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably lose everything and everyone he loves because of his actions.

[Aleksiel]

Did I? I am confused. Have I lost myself in my rambling? Quite possibly

 

 

 

All the princedoms are more or less independent, therefore yes I would compare Sadeas to a prime minister. He has to authority to launch a full scale civil war and he has the resources for it.

 

I am not saying it was a full-proof reason, I am just saying it was Adolin's reason. He snapped right when he understood nothing would ever get them rid of Sadeas then killing him. It was murder and yes, by definition, murder is condemnable. However, if we are to discuss of reasons to murder someone, I believe Adolin had a much better case than Kal or Moash ever did. The later wanted revenge, plain and simple. They were concerned about the dead whereas Adolin was concerned about the living. To me, it makes a huge difference. To he end result is still murder but, in my view, Kal is guilty of a nearly equal crime which is plotting to assassinate a king who did not deserve it. Kal will suffer no consequences simply because the plot failed, but in real life, conspiracy is nearly as punishable as murdering itself. Adolin, on the other hand, will probably lose everything and everyone he loves because of his actions.

 

Does it matter which is worse when both are wrong? Kal shouldn't have agreed to help 'the patriots' assassinate Elhokar, this doesn't excuse Adolin.

 

Adolin killed Sadeas for a future crime he was yet to commit (if spreading rumors can be called crime), whereas Kal sought to punish Amaram for murders he had committed, those are two very different things. Adolin did't go Batman on Sadeas, he murdered him because his anger took the best of him. On a different note why Kal never finds Amaram's guards and Restares (who convinced Amaram he had to kill Kal and his men according to what Amaram said to Kaladin before branding him) as guilty as Amaram himself is beyond me.

[maxal]

Does it matter which is worse when both are wrong? Kal shouldn't have agreed to help 'the patriots' assassinate Elhokar, this doesn't excuse Adolin.

 

I am not saying one excuses the other. I am just trying to relate Adolin's crime to Kaladin's actions in order compare motives. I believe Adolin has much better causes to kill Sadeas then Kaladin did to potentially murder Amaram and especially Elhokar.

 

 

Adolin killed Sadeas for a future crime he was yet to commit (if spreading rumors can be called crime), whereas Kal sought to punish Amaram for murders he had committed, those are two very different things. Adolin did't go Batman on Sadeas, he murdered him because his anger took the best of him. On a different note why Kal never finds Amaram's guards and Restares (who convinced Amaram he had to kill Kal and his men according to what Amaram said to Kaladin before branding him) as guilty as Amaram himself is beyond me.

 

Adolin killed Sadeas for future and past crimes. Sadeas's past crimes and horrible track record puts weight into his threats. It was not just rumors, he literally declared war to the Kohlins. I agree it is still not reason enough to go Batman on Sadeas, but it is, for me, a much lesser crime than Jasnah or Kaladin near disaster.

 

I agree about Kal. The guy seems to be resentful of a certain kind of persons only: high ranked lighteyes. We see it in one of his POV where he claims the world would be a better place if the darkeyes were the ones in charge because they would not be as corrupted as lighteyes. Poor Kal, he has yet to understand it is power that corrupts people, not eye color. I wish so bad for him to find himself within the darkeyes rebellion in Kohlinar and realize they are no better, and maybe worst, than the lighteyes.

[Savanorn]

I haven't the time to reply to the replies, which I assume are good as usual, but I'll reply to the OP. 

 

It wasn't wrong to kill Sadeas, not at all. Arguably the methodology was wrong, but Sadeas is about as bad as they come in the books...not to mention he is actually getting worse in his disregard for life and his love of pointless fighting. Even putting all else aside, the essential character of Sadeas is one that warrants death.  

 

We know Sadeas' goal, Conquest, the best he can offer as justifications are that battle is the only time he feels alive, and that it is the role of an Alethi to die, to go to the afterlife and continue to fight. 

 

Both of these justifications fall short as even approaching reasonable. 

 

End of the day, we can see that Sadeas isn't going to let up, he's going to continue to undermine the Crown and waste time and resources the world needs. 

[maxal]

I haven't the time to reply to the replies, which I assume are good as usual, but I'll reply to the OP. 

 

It wasn't wrong to kill Sadeas, not at all. Arguably the methodology was wrong, but Sadeas is about as bad as they come in the books...not to mention he is actually getting worse in his disregard for life and his love of pointless fighting. Even putting all else aside, the essential character of Sadeas is one that warrants death.  

 

We know Sadeas' goal, Conquest, the best he can offer as justifications are that battle is the only time he feels alive, and that it is the role of an Alethi to die, to go to the afterlife and continue to fight. 

 

Both of these justifications fall short as even approaching reasonable. 

 

End of the day, we can see that Sadeas isn't going to let up, he's going to continue to undermine the Crown and waste time and resources the world needs. 

 

I guess there were no good ways to deal with Sadeas....

 

Option 1) Dalinar declares Sadeas a traitor and a criminal. He insist on retribution and on a trial.

Result 1) The Sadeas and their allies go to open war with the Kohlins. The Kohlins had literally no allies left at that point and are forced to fight back superior forces. Alethki as a kingdom falls. House Kohlin is force to retreat to their princedom and try to defend it as best as they can. Desolation destroys Alethkar.

 

Option 2) They find a way to kill Sadeas legally. Oh wait, they did. They organized an entire set-up to force Sadeas to duel Adolin. The plan is risky, Adolin has to win against two and then win by killing Sadeas. A hard one, but they were out-thought. Luckily, Kaladin saves the day, but destroy House Kohlin's only chance to duel Sadeas.

Result 2) They won't have a second chance at this. There only other way is to hope Sadeas will get killed in a battle.

 

Option 3) They decide to have Sadeas discretely murdered. Dalinar finds an assassin, a good and respectable Alethki way to eliminate scums.

Result 3) Dalinar does not have the bone for it and it is against his Code. He will never go for such a plan, too bad.

 

Option 4) Do nothing. Let it go, keep trying to be a politician.

Result 4) Sadeas spreads lies that undermine Dalinar authority. He found a lost city, but he claims to be a feared and despised Radiant. People will move away from him as they will think it is all a ploy, especially with all his entourage following him into Radianhood. Sadeas will not stop, he will work to destroy Dalinar and yes he will launch a war against house Kohlin.

 

Dalinar does not want to prosecute nor assassinate Sades so what other option did they have? None. He can't keep on ignoring him, he has to deal with him, but he won't use the means he has. Basically, his hands are tied which is why what Adolin did was a good thing, a needed thing, but poorly executed. Sadly, it puts poor Adolin on the chopping block, our one expendable Kohlin

[Moogle]

II agree about Kal. The guy seems to be resentful of a certain kind of persons only: high ranked lighteyes. We see it in one of his POV where he claims the world would be a better place if the darkeyes were the ones in charge because they would not be as corrupted as lighteyes. Poor Kal, he has yet to understand it is power that corrupts people, not eye color. I wish so bad for him to find himself within the darkeyes rebellion in Kohlinar and realize they are no better, and maybe worst, than the lighteyes.

 

Kaladin makes exactly that point, actually.

 

 

“Syl?” he finally prompted. “Were you going to say something?”

“It seems I’ve heard men talk about times when there were no lies.”

“There are stories,” Kaladin said, “about the times of the Heraldic Epochs, when men were bound by honor. But you’ll always find people telling stories about supposedly better days. You watch. A man joins a new team of soldiers, and the first thing he’ll do is talk about how wonderful his old team was. We remember the good times and the bad ones, forgetting that most times are neither good nor bad. They just are.”

He broke into a jog. The sun was growing warm overhead, but he wanted to move.

“The stories,” he continued between puffs, “they prove it. What happened to the Heralds? They abandoned us. What happened to the Knights Radiant? They fell and became tarnished. What happened to the Epoch Kingdoms? They crashed when the church tried to seize power. You can’t trust anyone with power, Syl.”

“What do you do, then? Have no leaders?”

“No. You give the power to the lighteyes and leave it to corrupt them. Then try to stay as far from them as possible.” His words felt hollow. How good a job had he done staying away from lighteyes? He always seemed to be in the thick of them, caught in the muddy mire they created with their plots, schemes, and greed.

 

I think you might have mistakenly thought Kaladin said what Moash did:

 

“I’m no lighteyes,” Kaladin said, spitting to the side.

“You hate them so much.”

“I hate their lies,” Kaladin said. “I hate it that I used to believe they were honorable.”

“And would you cast them down?” Sigzil asked, sounding curious. “Rule in their place?”

“No.” This seemed to surprise Sigzil. To the side, Syl finally appeared, having finished frolicking in the winds of the highstorm. He always worried—just a little—that she’d ride away with them and leave him. “Have you no thirst to punish those who have treated you so?” Sigzil asked.

“Oh, I’m happy to punish them,” Kaladin said. “But I have no desire to take their place, nor do I wish to join them.”

“I’d join them in a heartbeat,” Moash said, walking up behind. He folded his arms across his lean, well-muscled chest. “If I were in charge, things would change. The lighteyes would work the mines and the fields. They would run bridges and die by Parshendi arrows.”

...

" ... You see, it has been my experience that no matter where you go, you will find some who abuse their power.” [sigzil] shrugged. “Eye color is not so odd a method, compared to many others I have seen. If you were to overthrow the lighteyes and place yourselves in power, Moash, I doubt that the world would be a very different place. The abuses would still happen. Simply to other people.”

Kaladin nodded slowly, but Moash shook his head.

“No. I’d change the world, Sigzil. And I mean to.”

[Edgedancer]

Sadeas was someone that had his fate comming. Whether just killing him was for the best or if they should have gone the legal way is really a grey topic debate. Personally, I think that the whole power shifting after discovering Urithiru should justify another try in the political way before one can say the situation is so pointless that an assassination becomes necessary, Dalinar suddenly had a lot more power, than before. But after that I can´t bring up a proper counter argument.

However, even leaving that aside there are two major problems I have with Adolins actions.

1) He acted in impulse. In my opinion, if you do something and you would not do it with a completly rational mindset, you are wrong. Simply because in that moment you do not act with any kind of morals, you´re acting soley on what you want and that is always a bad reason for anything, even if the action itself was good.

2) The possible consequences from this action are unpredictalbe. As I said above, the alethi power balance was shifting. From all we know Sadeas could have come out of this as a toothless tiger and Dalinar on top, not that we will ever find out. Now, on the other hand, Dalinar could end up being seen as a hypocritical tyrant with an image worse then Sadeas could ever create.

 

In regards to the WoB, I have noticed people tend to forgive Jasnah more easily than Adolin. Why is that? Because of the brutality of the murder as opposed to Jasnah's display?

Funny, before WoR came out I saw people asking why Kaladin goes by so flag free in comparision to Jasnah. Her actions are most likely discussed to death by now and that´s why people don´t bring it up that often.

My own big problem with her action is actually also not the part where she murders someone (Still a grey are where I won´t say it was good but I can understand her reasoning.) but instead how she literally murders people, with a to her completly unknown background, without giving them a chance to repent on the same day she hold a speech about humans being inherintly good and sometimes just need to be given a chance. Way to prove your point Jasnah. Shallan does a better job of living your ideals and she is the one that argued your actions were wrong.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Edgedancer

[maxal]

Kaladin makes exactly that point, actually.

 

 

I think you might have mistakenly thought Kaladin said what Moash did:

 

Wasn't there a quote in WoR where Kal mentions the darkeyes would never be as corrupted as lighteyes? That is the one I was referring to, but these are good quotes. I cannot wait to hear more about the darkeyes rebellion.

 

 

Sadeas was someone that had his fate comming. Whether just killing him was for the best or if they should have gone the legal way is really a grey topic debate. Personally, I think that the whole power shifting after discovering Urithiru should justify another try in the political way before one can say the situation is so pointless that an assassination becomes necessary, Dalinar suddenly had a lot more power, than before. But after that I can´t bring up a proper counter argument.

However, even leaving that aside there are two major problems I have with Adolins actions.

1) He acted in impulse. In my opinion, if you do something and you would not do it with a completly rational mindset, you are wrong. Simply because in that moment you do not act with any kind of morals, you´re acting soley on what you want and that is always a bad reason for anything, even if the action itself was good.

2) The possible consequences from this action are unpredictalbe. As I said above, the alethi power balance was shifting. From all we know Sadeas could have come out of this as a toothless tiger and Dalinar on top, not that we will ever find out. Now, on the other hand, Dalinar could end up being seen as a hypocritical tyrant with an image worse then Sadeas could ever create.

 

This is so problematic, killing Sadeas was right and at the same time wrong... I agree Adolin was not being rational at the time of the deed and will most likely see his actions as bad. However, it still was the right thing to do, just the how, the when and the circumstances were badly chosen.

 

If Adolin's implication becomes publicly known, it will hinder Dalinar's greatly, unless he chooses to deal with his son the harsh way, which I think he will, up to a certain point. However, since I do not think Dalinar will be able to fully prosecute his own son (exile or execution, can Dalinar really get angry enough to go this far with his favored son?), it will come back to bite him. I believe it may lead to how the "I will unite and not divise" oath works. Are you breaking your oath if you divide your family to unite a kingdom? Or is it better to potentially break a kingdom to keep your love ones united?

 

 

Funny, before WoR came out I saw people asking why Kaladin goes by so flag free in comparision to Jasnah. Her actions are most likely discussed to death by now and that´s why people don´t bring it up that often.

My own big problem with her action is actually also not the part where she murders someone (Still a grey are where I won´t say it was good but I can understand her reasoning.) but instead how she literally murders people, with a to her completly unknown background, without giving them a chance to repent on the same day she hold a speech about humans being inherintly good and sometimes just need to be given a chance. Way to prove your point Jasnah. Shallan does a better job of living your ideals and she is the one that argued your actions were wrong.

 

Kaladin? What did Kaladin did that was so reprehensible in WoK?

 

My issue with Jasnah is she is setting herself purposely to kill people just so she could teach a lesson. Yes, these were thugs, but it was not up to Jasnah to decide their faith and to randomly set herself to murder them was horrible, much more than poor Adolin loosing his mind over to many events in a too short lapse of time.

[Edgedancer]

 

Kaladin? What did Kaladin did that was so reprehensible in WoK?

 

My issue with Jasnah is she is setting herself purposely to kill people just so she could teach a lesson. Yes, these were thugs, but it was not up to Jasnah to decide their faith and to randomly set herself to murder them was horrible, much more than poor Adolin loosing his mind over to many events in a too short lapse of time.

 

I never made that point myself and it has been a while but I think it was mostly his hatred for lighteyes and desecrating the parshendi corpses.

 

Interesting that the problems with Jasnah´s murder are almost opposite to Adolin´s. In her case the problems are the cold blooded motives and in his it´s the impulsive execusion.

[maxal]

I never made that point myself and it has been a while but I think it was mostly his hatred for lighteyes and desecrating the parshendi corpses.

 

Interesting that the problems with Jasnah´s murder are almost opposite to Adolin´s. In her case the problems are the cold blooded motives and in his it´s the impulsive execusion.

 

True. It illustrates the paradox of the Kohlin family. I have thus determined there are two kinds of Kohlins: the rational reasonable ones (Galivar, Jasnah, Renarin) and the emotional impulsive ones (Dalinar, Elhokar, Adolin). Most of the Kohlins have cold distant personality are are doing badly in most social events except for Adolin, but he's got that from his mother's side who was a very likeable and amiable person (dixit Navani).

 

Jasnah, as a person, is cold, calculating and rational. She thinks over every single of her move and we have yet to see her display an emotion. She has never shown compassion and if she has a heart, we have not seen it. It must be buried deeply somewhere deep inside. Adolin, on  the other hand, is impulsive and gets carried away quite easily, except in military campaign where he seems to be able to keep a level head. He has a friendly easy-going nature and is used to follow the whims of his heart most of the time. However, he did not inherit Dalinar blood thirst which is what will prevent him, in the end, into turning into another Blackthorn, or so I think.

 

So yes, both murders really highlight the two predominant layers of the Kohlin family.

[Griff]

Personnally i dont think Adolin was wrong to kill Sadeas in the slightest, Sadeas had betrayed Dalinar trying to get him and Adolin killed and being the cause of 6000 deaths(roughly i think) of Dalinars men. He also attempted to have Dalinar assassinated, there is more than enough reason for Adolin to rightly kill Sadeas,

 

Was it legal? No. But it was Right

 

For what Sadeas had done in the past and for what he would do in future. 

 

Adolin thought of killing Sadeas a number of times the breaking point came when he realised that Sadeas would never stop causing strife, and disent amongst the Highprinces, while it was done in a "i lost my temper" type moment it doesnt change the fact it was righteous retibution for past crimes.

 

Sadeas was very likely to powerful to ever be legally prosocuted aswel hence why the initial attempt at getting him to duel Adolin in the first place and not just arreasting him.

 

On kal which i saw a few people mention he had as much reason to kill Amaram as Adolin had to kill Sadeas,maybe more in truth, since Amaram basically robbed him, killed his friends and put him into slavery, 

 

On Moash, i dont blame him for wanting vengence on Elhokar either, whether through incompetence, naivety or whatever he was still responsible for the deaths of his grandparents, so if justice was justice then Elhokar should of bin punished regardless, but he wasnt.

Graves used Moash wish for vengence to manipulate him in my opinion.

 

The Alethi lighteyes are fairly corrupt and darkeyes dont seem to get justice.

 

If Kal killed Amaram and Moash killed Elhokar it would be wrong legally but morally i dont think you could truely say they would be wrong to do so, in societies where the criminal system favours one group over the other than people must seek there own justice 

 

Righteous retribution really.

 

This will probably not be a popular opinion but i think each is justified on the grounds that they cant have justice any other way. Therefore they are faced with the person getting away with it or doing something about it themselves.

 

Legally right and morally right are not the same thing.

[dyring]

In Jasnahs case I dont really have a problem. Why? Because yes, she set herself up to kill, but it was still self defence. The persons she killed was the attackers.  Yes, she could have simply defeated them, but it is still they who attack. That is a big diff.

 

I mean, if I know there have been a bunch of unprovoked murders in a park and I go there armed, and shoot the people trying to murder after they have attacked... well, its not murder in my mind.