possible spoilers for eras 1 and 2 The power of pure atium

[Labyrinth Honorspren]

First of all, some WoBs:

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young?

Brandon Sanderson

They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy.

I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin.

The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation.

For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

So, I recently came up with this theory. The theory was: pure atium burned allomantically would give the burner innate knowledge of hemalurgy, allowing them to instinctually know and use the finer points of hemalurgy, such as where to place the spikes and which metal to use for the desired effect. But from these WoBs I got that that’s not what it would do. It would just be more powerful (I believe). But I think it is possible that it is not impossible.

Maybe, if you use pure atium hemalurgically it could give that ability. Some  supporting points are: burning lerasium allomantically gives you the power of allomancy. Lerasium is the body and metal of Preservation, and allomancy is his magic system, so it makes sense that lerasium would give you his power. Would it not also make sense to use Ruin’s metal in his power to get the best effects? It also makes me wonder if you could do a similar thing with harmonium and feruchemy!

Please prove me wrong, or supply me with more information to make it more rock-solid! I really like this theory, and I’m not the best at predicting what Sanderson is going to do.

Odium Reigns…

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

28 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

So, I recently came up with this theory. The theory was: pure atium burned allomantically would give the burner innate knowledge of hemalurgy, allowing them to instinctually know and use the finer points of hemalurgy, such as where to place the spikes and which metal to use for the desired effect. But from these WoBs I got that that’s not what it would do. It would just be more powerful (I believe). But I think it is possible that it is not impossible.

So, Elend saw a lot with the Atium+duralumin combo, he saw the whole plan of Preservation and his role in it, he saw that he needs to die from Marsh's hands. That's a lot. Moreover just burning Atium-electrum alloy helps with placing spikes. So I think that burning pure Atium might give you what you want. But in a very specific circumstance. If you have a victim already chosen, or better, there in front of you ready to be spikes, and you have a specific intent in mind, like stealing as much as possible as effective as it can be, burning Atium might help you choose the best spike and placement and provide that understanding of what you're doing to modify your intent on the go, so you will get what you can fro your victim, more than normally possible. You will see every possible scenario of what you can take from that person and what you can get from that spike, and choose the best outcome. Just like Elend burned Atium with duralumin and hit Marsh with a sword in a non-lethal place, the same way you will burn it and spike that person to get the most you can. That's why I think it's possible but in far more specific circumstances, rather than granting you a general knowledge.

Spoiler

Sylos

I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike?

On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future?

Brandon Sanderson

There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.

So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

PhantoMonstrosity

Atium is the best metal to use for Hemalurgy. Does *burning* atium help you figure out where to put the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that gets you a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm could help with placing spikes.

PhantoMonstrosity

Would flaring iron and steel also help?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not without additional help.

#NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

36 minutes ago, TheAlpha929 said:

Maybe, if you use pure atium hemalurgically it could give that ability. Some  supporting points are: burning lerasium allomantically gives you the power of allomancy. Lerasium is the body and metal of Preservation, and allomancy is his magic system, so it makes sense that lerasium would give you his power. Would it not also make sense to use Ruin’s metal in his power to get the best effects? It also makes me wonder if you could do a similar thing with harmonium and feruchemy!

It's a logical conclusion. Atium-electrum alloy already does this, it steals any power. How better can it get from that? I don't think it would extend to stealing attributes too. And it's already part of hemalurgy that a single spike can hold more than one charge (TLM proves this), because they don't know that they can do that, so pure Atium won't be simply "you can fit more" as you always could do that. I don't know what pure Atium would do better than its alloy.

For Harmonium, there is a way to use Scadrian god metals to create a Fullmind, a metal mind that can store any attribute. Maybe Harmonium is involved? 

Spoiler

Argent

Lerasium grants all Allomantic powers when burned. Atium, when used as a spike, can steal any power. Is there a way to create a metalmind that can store anything?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a way to create a metalmind that can store anything.

Argent

Harmonium?

Brandon Sanderson

I’m not saying; I gave you an answer…

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

 

Quote

It's a logical conclusion. Atium-electrum alloy already does this, it steals any power. How better can it get from that? I don't think it would extend to stealing attributes too. And it's already part of hemalurgy that a single spike can hold more than one charge (TLM proves this), because they don't know that they can do that, so pure Atium won't be simply "you can fit more" as you always could do that. I don't know what pure Atium would do better than its alloy.

Is it not pure Atium that steals any power and not Atium-Electrum?

Edit: I checked the Hemalurgy Table on The Coppermind, and it does indeed specify that the Atium must be refined.

WoB

Spoiler

VeryNiceName16

The Hemalurgy table mentions that atium “must be refined” in order to steal any power. Could this refined atium be burned by any Allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

So presumably, Pure Atium steals any power, and Atium-Electrum from Era 1 steals something specific.

Edited June 7 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Is it not pure Atium that steals any power and not Atium-Electrum?

Edit: I checked the Hemalurgy Table on The Coppermind, and it does indeed specify that the Atium must be refined.

WoB

  Hide contents

VeryNiceName16

The Hemalurgy table mentions that atium “must be refined” in order to steal any power. Could this refined atium be burned by any Allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

So presumably, Pure Atium steals any power, and Atium-Electrum from Era 1 steals something specific.

Interesting. So it means that either Inquisitors were using pure Atium for their spikes or that Atium-Electrum alloys steal only any Metalic Art power, or it steals Allomantic Temporal powers as that's what they believed it does in Era 1, per the WoB below. I doubt the Lord Ruler would take the risk and gave them pure Atium, I don’t think he could even make pure Atium, it could be outside the reach of his technology level - Atium likely is like Harmonium and has a very high melting point. 

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Interesting. So it means that either Inquisitors were using pure Atium for their spikes or that Atium-Electrum alloys steal only any Metalic Art power, or it steals Allomantic Temporal powers as that's what they believed it does in Era 1, per the WoB below. I doubt the Lord Ruler would take the risk and gave them pure Atium, I don’t think he could even make pure Atium, it could be outside the reach of his technology level - Atium likely is like Harmonium and has a very high melting point. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

I dont think so; Kelsier got his hands on Malatium easily enough, and the Inquisitors would need Pure Atium to get A- and F-Atium, since those aren't any of the normal 16 powers.

Why would giving the Inquisitors Pure Atium be a risk? I assume the Inquisitors wouldn't be doing the actual metallurgy themselves, so by the time they would get them, they'd already be spikes. Even if they filed some off and burned it, I doubt it would be very dangerous. It just gives you a vision of the Spiritual Realm. If the problem is that they would figure out the whole Ruin and Preservation thing, I still don't think that would be a problem. Elend knows about Ruin, is being directly fueled by Preservation, and he has a part to play in Preservation's plan. A random Inquisitor burning Pure Atium while Ruin was still Imprisoned and who has nothing to do with either of the Shards or the plan wouldn't parse all that from a glimpse. Besides, the Inquisitors would be loyal to the Lord Ruler, and if they figured out anything new, they would just tell him. If he was that worried about them figuring out what Pure Atium does, he also could have personally overseen the forging of the spikes to ensure that the Inquisitors don't try anything.

I think the only Atium spikes they ever used would be Pure Atium spikes, the way Brandon talks about it in the WoB. The H-Atium-Electrum would steal something specific that wasn't Temporal Allomantic powers.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

5 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I dont think so; Kelsier got his hands on Malatium easily enough, and the Inquisitors would need Pure Atium to get A- and F-Atium, since those aren't any of the normal 16 powers.

They're based on base metals and native Scadrial god metals, so that might make them normal enough.

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Why would giving the Inquisitors Pure Atium be a risk? I assume the Inquisitors wouldn't be doing the actual metallurgy themselves, so by the time they would get them, they'd already be spikes. Even if they filed some off and burned it, I doubt it would be very dangerous. It just gives you a vision of the Spiritual Realm. If the problem is that they would figure out the whole Ruin and Preservation thing, I still don't think that would be a problem. Elend knows about Ruin, is being directly fueled by Preservation, and he has a part to play in Preservation's plan. A random Inquisitor burning Pure Atium while Ruin was still Imprisoned and who has nothing to do with either of the Shards or the plan wouldn't parse all that from a glimpse. Besides, the Inquisitors would be loyal to the Lord Ruler, and if they figured out anything new, they would just tell him. If he was that worried about them figuring out what Pure Atium does, he also could have personally overseen the forging of the spikes to ensure that the Inquisitors don't try anything.

It's not about Ruin/Preservation. Not every peer into the Future would let them see the same thing as Elend - it's specific to the person burning it. Elend was concerned about fighting with Marsh and Ruin. That's why he saw what he saw. A normal Inquisitor wouldn't see Preservation's plan. He might see Rashek's plan instead, and learn who he really was. That's why it could be dangerous. It would give inquisitors tools to learn about the source of the Lord Ruler's power and how to defeat him. It takes only one disloyal Inquisitor to kill Rashek, and he was very specific in limitations imposed on them to make sure none of them would be able to compound, no Feruchemical powers except for gold etc. He wouldn't risk giving them pure Atium, even in the form of a spike (as they can be burned just for the Atium, ignoring the charge WoB). He knew inquisitors would turn against him sooner or later, that's why he "designed" them with a lynchpin spike. And look, there was one disloyal inquisitor, Marsh, just imagine if Marsh had access to pure Atium, burned it and learned the secret of Rashek's power. Instead of going for the lynchpin spike, he would rip off Rashek's metalminds. Pure Atium is too risky for Rashek to give inquisitors.

Even a devoted inquisitor who would learn that his god isn't a real god might turn against him. Ruin would be able to influence them through spikes and possibly even influence their future visions. 

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Leras said Ati's essense can't be trusted and Odium's desires can influence Renarin's visions. 

 

18 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think the only Atium spikes they ever used would be Pure Atium spikes, the way Brandon talks about it in the WoB. The H-Atium-Electrum would steal something specific that wasn't Temporal Allomantic powers.

Spikes can be used for more then what the Hemalurgic table says. Pewter spike steals Physical Feruchemical powers, but ReLuur's Blessings are made out of it and Kandra didn't figure out how to grant themself powers.

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

They're based on base metals and native Scadrial god metals, so that might make them normal enough.

If that's the case, they wouldn't need Atium spikes at all, and the risk of one of the Inquisitors burning it would be basically nonexistent since they'd only ever use it for a small handful of experiments to see what it steals, and then never do it again.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

It's not about Ruin/Preservation. Not every peer into the Future would let them see the same thing as Elend - it's specific to the person burning it. Elend was concerned about fighting with Marsh and Ruin. That's why he saw what he saw. A normal Inquisitor wouldn't see Preservation's plan. He might see Rashek's plan instead, and learn who he really was. That's why it could be dangerous. It would give inquisitors tools to learn about the source of the Lord Ruler's power and how to defeat him. It takes only one disloyal Inquisitor to kill Rashek, and he was very specific in limitations imposed on them to make sure none of them would be able to compound, no Feruchemical powers except for gold etc. He wouldn't risk giving them pure Atium, even in the form of a spike (as they can be burned just for the Atium, ignoring the charge WoB). He knew inquisitors would turn against him sooner or later, that's why he "designed" them with a lynchpin spike. And look, there was one disloyal inquisitor, Marsh, just imagine if Marsh had access to pure Atium, burned it and learned the secret of Rashek's power. Instead of going for the lynchpin spike, he would rip off Rashek's metalminds. Pure Atium is too risky for Rashek to give inquisitors.

Even a devoted inquisitor who would learn that his god isn't a real god might turn against him. Ruin would be able to influence them through spikes and possibly even influence their future visions. 

I don't think Ruin could influence them beyond just whispering to them since he would still be trapped, but that's a valid argument, makes sense why you would consider Pure Atium a risk now. I imagine that Rashek would either have had the Atium refined separately and then had the Inquisitors just try it out with only the knowledge that it's a regular Atium spike, and they would have no reason to burn it. He could also just personally supervise them, he has to do something to keep himself busy, given that he can't even sleep.

Maybe the Inquisitors just never thought to try it. It's unlikely but possible. Evidence seems to suggest that the spikes being used were Pure Atium spikes, and that Atium-Electrum would have a more specific thing that it steals.

20 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spikes can be used for more then what the Hemalurgic table says. Pewter spike steals Physical Feruchemical powers, but ReLuur's Blessings are made out of it and Kandra didn't figure out how to grant themself powers.

True, but they don't encroach on each other. I could see H-Iron stealing something like weight or durability, but not mental acuity, because that's Copper's thing. The only time we see the spikes' attributes overlap is with Bavadinium, which can apparently steal anything another spike can steal but also grant it to a Kandra, maybe as a side effect of the fact that it's 'Autonomous', which could make it circumvent certain Spiritual hurdles to give its recipient the power it grants, but Bavadinium is a pure God metal. Atium does something similar, where it can steal any power. So does Lerasium, which steals all possible attributes into a single spike (or possibly it can just steal any attribute but only one at a time). Atium-Electrum is an alloy, so it becomes specialized.

It could work differently, but we don't have anything else to go off of, so this is how I believe it works. The "Grants Temporal Allomancy" thing could just be the Inquisitors assuming it would steal the only quadrant unaccounted for, and the Pure Atium spike reflected that Intent.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

33 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If that's the case, they wouldn't need Atium spikes at all, and the risk of one of the Inquisitors burning it would be basically nonexistent since they'd only ever use it for a small handful of experiments to see what it steals, and then never do it again.

So how would you steal A-Atium without an Atium spike? They need Atium.

39 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think Ruin could influence them beyond just whispering to them since he would still be trapped

He for sure was able to influence them via emotional Allomancy-like effects. That's what Kel saw. He influenced Vin's mother to spike her kid, Gemmel, or Zane. And it was most visible with Marsh, who went to Seren with Sazed making him discover the plate, then on a killing spree in Terris, and then was literally controlled by Ruin to kill Sazed. All of that when Ruin was still imprisoned.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He could also just personally supervise them, he has to do something to keep himself busy, given that he can't even sleep.

Not possible, he would have to be present at creation of every inquisitor, and that can be anywhere - Marsh's "creation" was at some random Skaa house, you want to tell me Rashek was there? 

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Evidence seems to suggest that the spikes being used were Pure Atium spikes, and that Atium-Electrum would have a more specific thing that it steals.

We have no evidence to suggest that a god metal alloy spike would have a narrow purpose instead of a wide one. Only one Atium alloy (if that was an alloy at all) was used as spikes that we know what they have stolen. A god metal alloy is likely a middle ground between stealing something specific and taking anything. But because there is almost no evidence for that, all 3 options are more or less equally possible. That's why I presented logical arguments why Rashek wouldn't want his Inquisitors to have access to pure Atium, which for me pulls the probability away from pure Atium spikes in favor of the other options. 

24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but they don't encroach on each other. I could see H-Iron stealing something like weight or durability, but not mental acuity, because that's Copper's thing.

We have no idea at all what ReLuur's spikes do. Again, we're talking about god metal alloys, that break the pattern known to us. They would very likely do something weird.

Spoiler

BrandonColevander

How come the base 8 abilities come in pairs by base metal & alloy, but the higher ability pairs are not related?

Peter Ahlstrom

Which book are you on? Things change after the first book. They don't understand things as well as they think.

BrandonColevander

I've read all 4 several times. Ex: electrum is a gold alloy yet it is opposite of atium & malatium opposite gold...>

Peter Ahlstrom

Alloys of atium can't be thought of as establishing any pattern.

BrandonColevander

@PeterAhlstrom there are alloyS (plural) of atium?! Any chance that atium or its alloys show up again in any of the upcoming novels?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

General Twitter 2015 (Jan. 24, 2015)

 

[Spearguy Grand]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

For Harmonium, there is a way to use Scadrian god metals to create a Fullmind, a metal mind that can store any attribute. Maybe Harmonium is involved? 

 

That could just be via sort of winding the metals together without alloying them, if I am not mistaken the rpg has a similar item (I know it isn't really canon, but the idea still makes sense)

My theory is that alloying a god metal only has an effect in the metallic art of the opposing god, otherwise the god metal more or less overrides the other metal. Old atium and malatium both are sort of the opposite of electrum and gold respectively. For feruchemy and hemalurgy all alloying does is weaken the effect of the god metal. I imagine that pure F-Atium doesn't just store youth but overall condition, while tapping you are being Ruined to your weakest stake, entropy is working against you, but when you tap pure F-Atium you become your peak self.

I imagine that using lerasium alloys in hemalurgy just stores indefinitely with no loss of power (or much less)

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

10 hours ago, Spearguy said:

That could just be via sort of winding the metals together without alloying them, if I am not mistaken the rpg has a similar item (I know it isn't really canon, but the idea still makes sense)

That's not it. The Bands are like this, 16 metals forming one spearhead. But that's not a way to make a metalmind that can store anything, as if those were just like the Bands, you would be able to store only in a metal that you touch, which can't store everything. Each metal still acts like a separate metalmind. You need more than that.

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

So how would you steal A-Atium without an Atium spike? They need Atium.

Did you not just say that them being based off of regular base metals and Scadrian God metals could make them normal enough? Apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant, but I had said that they'd need Pure Atium spikes for A- and F-Atium, to which you said that their composition could make them normal enough. I assumed you meant that they would be able to be stolen through regular Hemalurgy, so H-Cadium could steal A-Atium because it acts like a temporal metal.

Ah, nevermind me, I didn't think it through. You're right, they'd need Atium for A- and F-Atium. I think you could explain it away by just saying if they ever try to burn a spike, it would be one that isn't so unimaginably expensive, like A-Pewter or A-Tin. If you can only get enough F-Gold spikes for a small handful of Inquisitors to be able to have the ability, you wouldn't risk burning that one first just as an experiment, in case something goes horribly wrong. The same goes for Atium spikes. And WoB says that burning a spike for Allomancy would be possible but excruciating, and it would probably knock you out:

Spoiler

17th Shard

Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard

Would they be able to tap?

Brandon Sanderson

Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

So that would explain why they never discovered it, again if they even knew that the spikes were different from regular Atium, because they know what Atium does Allomantically, and they know what burning a spike does. I think it's more a plothole than anything else, so some handwaving may be required, but this should suffice.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

He for sure was able to influence them via emotional Allomancy-like effects. That's what Kel saw. He influenced Vin's mother to spike her kid, Gemmel, or Zane. And it was most visible with Marsh, who went to Seren with Sazed making him discover the plate, then on a killing spree in Terris, and then was literally controlled by Ruin to kill Sazed. All of that when Ruin was still imprisoned.

Vin's mother is a good point, but Gemmel and Zane he never really controls very specifically. I always attributed Marsh to the fact that he was near to Ruin's consciousness and that the Well was full and awaiting a Vessel, but in hindsight, it might not affect it that much. Do we know if that factor affects his control?

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not possible, he would have to be present at creation of every inquisitor, and that can be anywhere - Marsh's "creation" was at some random Skaa house, you want to tell me Rashek was there? 

I had meant that under the assumption that they wouldn't need Atium for any of their stolen abilities, but without the advent of Cadmium, they couldn't do that. In that case, Rashek couldn't be there for the creation of every Inquisitor. But as I said earlier, it depends on what the Inquisitors knew. Other than that, they're homicidal and excitable, the prospect of a new member added to their order would probably distract them from experiments.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

We have no evidence to suggest that a god metal alloy spike would have a narrow purpose instead of a wide one.

Depends. God metals and their alloys do one specific thing in Allomancy. They also have one specific use in Feruchemy. Extrapolating from that, they should have specific uses in Hemalurgy. The thing is, as you said earlier, metals can take more than one thing, such as ReLuur's spikes, which probably don't hold Physical Feruchemical powers. But since the soul is so complex, metals in Hemalurgy likely have subcategories that they steal from rather than a specific thing, and even those won't be very extensive, probably limited to 2 or 3 attributes. We only know about the singular attributes because the table is specifically about Inquisitors and not Hemalurgy in general. Like my example of H-Iron, it could steal something physical from you, but not something mental, because that's a different metal's subcategory. The only examples we have of something transcending those limits are Atium and Bavadinium, Atium because it's the God metal of Hemalurgy's parent Shard, and Bavadinium because of its Shard's self-empowering Intent. Atium shows you the Past and Future through the Spiritual Realm, but Atium-Electrum becomes specialized in that it lets you read Spiritual Connections going into the future for other people in a more limited way. Malatium does this too, it becomes specialized by letting you read someone else's Spiritual Connections reaching back into the past in a more limited way. One could be anomalous, but two are setting a trend, even if it's not a predictable pattern. It applies to Feruchemy as well, so it should apply to Hemalurgy too.

That's why I say it could act in some other capacity, but so far, I dont really have any reason to think it should. It could, but until stronger evidence comes along, I'll assume it doesn't. It's easier to theorize if we assume a reasonable result rather than leaving it open to "it could be anything", because you can't use Anything to justify further extrapolation. Almost no evidence and no evidence at all have a big grey area in between that's fertile ground for speculation.

I would like to point out that ReLuur's spikes might be imbued with Physical Feruchemy anyway, as an experiment by the Lord Ruler to see if Feruchemy could be returned to the Mistwraiths. Even if it doesn't grant the powers, there's really no reason to assume that a Blessing made of powers couldn't bring a Mistwraith to sentience, sans an extra boost from the Blessing.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

Only one Atium alloy (if that was an alloy at all) was used as spikes that we know what they have stolen. A god metal alloy is likely a middle ground between stealing something specific and taking anything. But because there is almost no evidence for that, all 3 options are more or less equally possible. That's why I presented logical arguments why Rashek wouldn't want his Inquisitors to have access to pure Atium, which for me pulls the probability away from pure Atium spikes in favor of the other options. 

That's true, but the table that's specifically designed for creating an Inquisitor, and says that Atium spikes need to be refined. That strongly implies, if not outright confirms, that they would indeed be using Pure Atium spikes.

15 hours ago, alder24 said:

We have no idea at all what ReLuur's spikes do. Again, we're talking about god metal alloys, that break the pattern known to us. They would very likely do something weird.

Could be, but again, they specialize in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Lerasium grants all 16 Allomantic abilities, but then alloying it grants a specific one. You can specify even further by using God metals to make a Feruchemist, and likely specialize even that to create specific Ferrings. The God metals do set trends, even if they're not patterns based on the base metals.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Did you not just say that them being based off of regular base metals and Scadrian God metals could make them normal enough? Apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant, but I had said that they'd need Pure Atium spikes for A- and F-Atium, to which you said that their composition could make them normal enough. I assumed you meant that they would be able to be stolen through regular Hemalurgy, so H-Cadium could steal A-Atium because it acts like a temporal metal.

 

I think I meant that A-Atium and F-Atium being alloys of electrum might make then "normal" enough for Atium-electrum alloy spike to work on them even if it has a more specific purpose. I don't remember now tbf.

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Ah, nevermind me, I didn't think it through. You're right, they'd need Atium for A- and F-Atium. I think you could explain it away by just saying if they ever try to burn a spike, it would be one that isn't so unimaginably expensive, like A-Pewter or A-Tin. If you can only get enough F-Gold spikes for a small handful of Inquisitors to be able to have the ability, you wouldn't risk burning that one first just as an experiment, in case something goes horribly wrong. The same goes for Atium spikes. And WoB says that burning a spike for Allomancy would be possible but excruciating, and it would probably knock you out:

  Reveal hidden contents

17th Shard

Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

17th Shard

Would they be able to tap?

Brandon Sanderson

Would they tap them? They can use them as metalminds, yes.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

So that would explain why they never discovered it, again if they even knew that the spikes were different from regular Atium, because they know what Atium does Allomantically, and they know what burning a spike does. I think it's more a plothole than anything else, so some handwaving may be required, but this should suffice.

That's about a spike that's inside their body. What about a spike that has just stolen an ability or wasn't used at all and is just a pure Atium? Inquisitor can just burn them. Why not? They might need Atium for some reason, unexpected fight accrued and they need it, so they would try to burn it and discover it has wildly different effect that their normal Atium.

Spoiler

RoboChrist

If you have a Hemalurgic spike made of atium, that grants atium Allomancy, could you use the spike itself as a source of atium to burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Briefly. 

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 30, 2018)

 

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Vin's mother is a good point, but Gemmel and Zane he never really controls very specifically.

Even without control they have served him well. Just by whispering Ruin was able to do a lot with them. Spook or Penrod are other examples, but that was after his release.

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I always attributed Marsh to the fact that he was near to Ruin's consciousness and that the Well was full and awaiting a Vessel, but in hindsight, it might not affect it that much. Do we know if that factor affects his control?

It shouldn't. Otherwise Marsh would never lead Sazed to Seren, nor he would never kill all of Synod with other Inquisitors. Ruin took at least partial control over him.

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Atium shows you the Past and Future through the Spiritual Realm, but Atium-Electrum becomes specialized in that it lets you read Spiritual Connections going into the future for other people in a more limited way.

Electrum can achieve similar results as pure Atium, effects of pure A-Atium aren't even unique. It’s more about the nature of SR and future vision, pure Atium is stronger which allows you to break through that barrier and reach that moment. But both Atium and Electrum can do that too with some help. But yes, it's limited rather than specialized.

Spoiler

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

6 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's true, but the table that's specifically designed for creating an Inquisitor, and says that Atium spikes need to be refined. That strongly implies, if not outright confirms, that they would indeed be using Pure Atium spikes.

That's a good point. However, the Allomantic table doesn't specify the effect of Atium-electrum alloy. By this logic it should be certain that all Allomancers were using pure Atium, but we know that's not true. The same can be with a Hemalurgic table. They included pure Atium spikes, but Atium-electrum spikes were used, but its effect was not written on the table. However, the note about Atium needed to be refined is still a point for you.

Edit: I don't think I have anything more to add. We need a WoB on that.

Edited June 10 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think I meant that A-Atium and F-Atium being alloys of electrum might make then "normal" enough for Atium-electrum alloy spike to work on them even if it has a more specific purpose. I don't remember now tbf.

We'll assume that it's what I interpreted it to mean (That A-Atium and F-Atium are close enough to regular Metallic Arts to be spiked using H-Cadmium), because that makes the most sense to me.

Quote

That's about a spike that's inside their body. What about a spike that has just stolen an ability or wasn't used at all and is just a pure Atium? Inquisitor can just burn them. Why not? They might need Atium for some reason, unexpected fight accrued and they need it, so they would try to burn it and discover it has wildly different effect that their normal Atium.

That's possible, but that's straying into very improbable events. How often would the Inquisitors have an Atium Spike available from the offset to give to a new Inquisitor, be on their way to make a new Inquisitor, get in a fight, have the person they're fighting be Mistborn, have the Mistborn attempt to defeat them through Atium, then also have the Inquisitor not have Atium on/in them, decide it's worth using up the incredibly rare spike to win the fight, and have some way of getting enough Atium off the spike to ingest and burn it?

Quote

Even without control they have served him well. Just by whispering Ruin was able to do a lot with them. Spook or Penrod are other examples, but that was after his release.

Even after his release, they only had single spikes, which shouldn't have opened them up to his control anyway. Still, I get your point.

Quote

It shouldn't. Otherwise Marsh would never lead Sazed to Seren, nor he would never kill all of Synod with other Inquisitors. Ruin took at least partial control over him.

Maybe the sheer amount of spikes present in an Inquisitor was enough to give him partial control, even then.

Quote

Electrum can achieve similar results as pure Atium, effects of pure A-Atium aren't even unique. It’s more about the nature of SR and future vision, pure Atium is stronger which allows you to break through that barrier and reach that moment. But both Atium and Electrum can do that too with some help. But yes, it's limited rather than specialized.

Limited vs Specialized might be playing with semantics at this point, but I don't think you're portraying it right. Pure Atium gives you a perfect view of the SR. Atium-Electrum and regular Electrum work through Spiritual Connections, so compounding those abilities on top of each other through something external like Duralumin or Nicrosil can achieve the same effect, but they aren't the same. It's like hotwiring a car as opposed to starting it with a key. The two achieve the same effect, but through vastly different means, where one was made for the task and the other is just a hack taking advantage of the principles through which the mechanism works.

Quote

That's a good point. However, the Allomantic table doesn't specify the effect of Atium-electrum alloy. By this logic it should be certain that all Allomancers were using pure Atium, but we know that's not true. The same can be with a Hemalurgic table. They included pure Atium spikes, but Atium-electrum spikes were used, but its effect was not written on the table. However, the note about Atium needed to be refined is still a point for you.

I said it in my last post, and I'll say it again here: You have a point, that could totally be the case. We're given next to nothing about H-Atium, so we just don't know. However, the only thing that does touch upon H-Atium says it needs to be refined, which is the crux of my argument here. Until we're given more to confirm or deny whether the Atium used as spikes is Pure or not, it seems reasonable to me to assume it's the Pure version, as that is what the only clue we have about it says. It's a headcanon as of now, so it's acceptable to think either one is right for the time being.

Edited June 10 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[cometaryorbit Compounder]

I think probably the Inquisitors had atium-electrum spikes, and that only steals Allomantic Temporal powers, and they weren't really stealing A-Atium (which probably doesn't exist as a power anyway, if anyone can burn atium) but A-Electrum (which allowed them to burn the electrum-atium).

Atium "must be refined" to steal any power - not to work at all in Hemalurgy. The Era 1 Inquisitors didn't know how to make it steal any power, only Allomantic Temporal powers. So I don't think they were using the refined form.

Edited June 10 by cometaryorbit

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:34 AM, alder24 said:

So it means that either Inquisitors were using pure Atium for their spikes or that Atium-Electrum alloys steal only any Metalic Art power, or it steals Allomantic Temporal powers as that's what they believed it does in Era 1, per the WoB below.

I like the idea it's analogous to lerasium. Lerasium lets you burn any metal, a lerasium alloy lets you burn that metal (or at least some do). Atium lets you steal any metal, maybe an atium alloy lets you steal that metal (or at least maybe some do). I doubt they ever bothered to try for Allomantic gold, so they would steal Allomantic electrum successfully, think it stole Allomantic "atium", and thus decide it steals temporal Allomancy in general.

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

9 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I like the idea it's analogous to lerasium. Lerasium lets you burn any metal, a lerasium alloy lets you burn that metal (or at least some do). Atium lets you steal any metal, maybe an atium alloy lets you steal that metal (or at least maybe some do). I doubt they ever bothered to try for Allomantic gold, so they would steal Allomantic electrum successfully, think it stole Allomantic "atium", and thus decide it steals temporal Allomancy in general.

Yes, that's a very nice explanation. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think probably the Inquisitors had atium-electrum spikes, and that only steals Allomantic Temporal powers, and they weren't really stealing A-Atium (which probably doesn't exist as a power anyway, if anyone can burn atium) but A-Electrum (which allowed them to burn the electrum-atium).

Atium "must be refined" to steal any power - not to work at all in Hemalurgy. The Era 1 Inquisitors didn't know how to make it steal any power, only Allomantic Temporal powers. So I don't think they were using the refined form.

There's a WoB that would support your argument. This could be it, although it doesn't tackle the idea of why H-Atium-Electrum would do the exact same thing as H-Cadmium. In-world it's weird, narratively it's redundant.

Here's the WoB 

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I like the idea it's analogous to lerasium. Lerasium lets you burn any metal, a lerasium alloy lets you burn that metal (or at least some do). Atium lets you steal any metal, maybe an atium alloy lets you steal that metal (or at least maybe some do). I doubt they ever bothered to try for Allomantic gold, so they would steal Allomantic electrum successfully, think it stole Allomantic "atium", and thus decide it steals temporal Allomancy in general.

This solves the issue, they work pretty nicely together. The only problem I can think of is how bind points enter the equation, since presumably, the Inquisitors should think that A-Atium and A-Electrum have different bind points. That gets solved if they think that the bind point is the same and it's the Intent that counts when really they could have been using the same spike to get both abilities.

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

the Inquisitors should think that A-Atium and A-Electrum have different bind points.

Do we ever see an Inquisitor use Allomantic electrum? I can't recall. Either way, it seems likely to me that there would be multiple valid bind points for each metal (since we don't see Inquisitors walking around with earrings for their bronze I don't think), so it's possible that they would attribute some bind points to electrum and some to atium when really they're all electrum.

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

10 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Do we ever see an Inquisitor use Allomantic electrum? I can't recall.

Not that we can tell. They wouldn't really need the ability, as all it does is make you immune to Atium as of TFE. It's purely a defensive metal against someone burning Atium. If you work for the person who literally controls the entire Atium economy, why go through the effort of finding and killing an Electrum Misting or wasting a Mistborn to obtain A-Electrum when you can get A-Atium, which includes that in-built defense as well as an offensive boost that makes you nigh-invincible? Their burning Electrum would be indistinguishable from burning Atium to us, and with both options available to them as well as having access to unlimited Atium, it wouldn't make sense for them to bother with Electrum spikes beyond experimenting to see what exactly it took to extract that power.

Quote

Either way, it seems likely to me that there would be multiple valid bind points for each metal (since we don't see Inquisitors walking around with earrings for their bronze I don't think), so it's possible that they would attribute some bind points to electrum and some to atium when really they're all electrum.

We indeed do not see Iquisitors walking around with Bronze earrings. However, that's a receiving bind point and not a taking bind point. With how many things you could steal from a body, I think each power and attribute only has one specific point where it can be extracted (say, heart for A-Copper, knee for F-Copper), but it can be inserted to gain the power in any bind point (such as gaining A-Copper regardless of whether you insert it into the heart or into the knee).

We see that for powers like physical Allomancy or Feruchemy, the taking bind points are very close together, so it could just be that a single point could be used to extract the relevant powers depending on Intent, should the spike be big enough to pierce more than one bind point, which is what they could have assumed was happening here.

Edited June 11 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

19 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

However, that's a receiving bind point and not a taking bind point.

While some older comments suggest that there are bind points on both sides, the latest word is that position only matters on the recipient:

Spoiler

mithrilnova

Does the positioning of a Hemalurgic spike matter on the donor, the recipient, or both?

Brandon Sanderson

Recipient.

Footnote: Brandon expands on this answer here.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 20, 2018)

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. [...]

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Edited June 11 by LewsTherinTelescope
fix links for real

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

9 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

While some older comments suggest that there are bind points on both sides, the latest word is that position only matters on the recipient:

  Reveal hidden contents

mithrilnova

Does the positioning of a Hemalurgic spike matter on the donor, the recipient, or both?

Brandon Sanderson

Recipient.

Footnote: Brandon expands on this answer here.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 20, 2018)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. [...]

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Hmmmm. I swear spike placement also matters in the donor. @alder24?

Spiking someone to steal the ability through the heart is brought up a lot, the only time it isn't done through the heart is when the Set scientist spikes that woman through the back. 

If spiking a specific point isn't the case, then Intent becomes even more important in Hemalurgy than I assumed. I thought it was a combination of Metal + Intent + Placement, but apparently, you can just kill anyone with the right metal and Intent and get a spike. If that's the case, Wax could make spikes easily by Intending to make one when he shoots people. The corpses aren't going anywhere, so he can always come back and retrieve the bullets, and he doesn't have to feel bad about it because he was going to kill them anyway, so might as well gain an advantage from it, use it to conduct research or give them to the Kandra (again for research or to make communication earrings), building up a supply of spikes for random attributes and different Metalborn powers. Better than wasting them, right? Hemalurgy becomes way overpowered like this, I'd never considered it.

Edited June 11 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

31 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Hmmmm. I swear spike placement also matters in the donor. @alder24?

It matters. A lot in the case of Atium. @LewsTherinTelescope cut the WoB, here's the full one:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

[my interpretation based on the context of this whole conversation: "if you're not placing the spike in the right place" that's about stealing a power from a donor, "and going into the right place" that's about placing the spike in recipient - You're risking stealing a wrong power when placing the spike in a wrong point in a donor, even if you place it in the recipient correctly for the power you want to get. But later conversation say it out loud that you can steal wrong thing with wrong binding point]

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

There are multiple binding points in the heart (4 I think), and where you place a spike determines what power you steal.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

But in the case of Atium-electrum and electrum it doesn't matter if they are the same thing, the same power, the same Misting. Stealing Atium-electrum will steel Atium too. That will be the same binding point. Inquisitors of course didn't know that. So when they would do experiments they would try multiple binding points in the heart and only the one working for Atium would work for Electrum. 

39 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Spiking someone to steal the ability through the heart is brought up a lot, the only time it isn't done through the heart is when the Set scientist spikes that woman through the back. 

Yes, but they didn't steal any power, just pure investiture. That might be the reason why.

43 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

he doesn't have to feel bad about it because he was going to kill them anyway

You know there is a difference between killing someone and crippling them for eternity in the afterlife? Wax evan was very not ok with using any kind of Hemalurgy up until TLM, even a pathian spike made him anxious.

46 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Better than wasting them, right?

If you lack conscience and morality then yes. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper Misting]

Ah, thank god. My entire worldview just near imploded.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You know there is a difference between killing someone and crippling them for eternity in the afterlife? Wax evan was very not ok with using any kind of Hemalurgy up until TLM, even a pathian spike made him anxious.

If you lack conscience and morality then yes. 

Well, they're only crippled for the duration of their stay in Shadesmar, which is short. We don't even know for sure how they're crippled beyond staying for a shorter while. And I am nothing if not a morally ambiguous figure. If you're killing someone, at least take something from them that can benefit the living.

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

@LewsTherinTelescope cut the WoB, here's the full one:

Right before the bolded parts, he specifies recipient is what he means by it. Brandon tends to repeat himself a lot, so I didn't take "placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place" as particularly significant, myself.

And in the other WoB he explicitly states that it's just the recipient that matters when asked "the donor, the recipient, or both". This does contradict some older WoBs, but he changes his mind sometimes (see the ancient "Preservation changed Allomancy to make atium Mistings" WoB), and from what I recall the books themselves are not explicit about it either way which leaves it open to those sorts of changes in direction.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Wax could make spikes easily by Intending to make one when he shoots people. The corpses aren't going anywhere, so he can always come back and retrieve the bullets, and he doesn't have to feel bad about it because he was going to kill them anyway, so might as well gain an advantage from it

In theory yup, wonder if we'll see controversy over this in Era 3 as this gets discovered. Also significantly nerfs healers like Miles...

Edited June 11 by LewsTherinTelescope
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[alder24 Tarachin Superstar]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Right before the bolded parts, he specifies recipient is what he means by it. Brandon tends to repeat himself a lot, so I didn't take "placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place" as particularly significant, myself.

The "in the recipient" isn't Brandon telling that it only matters in recipient, that's him repeating what questioner said: "In the recipient, not the donor.". But in the second sentence of this answer he said: "if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family." - he clearly talks here about a donor spike - "how you spike [...] risk taking the wrong thing" - taking things happens only when spiking a donor.

In this part of the WoB, the questioner is asking about a recipient, while Brandon is clearly answering about a donor - this continues until the very end of the WoB, when the questioner finally gets the answer to his recipient question.

 

13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Well, they're only crippled for the duration of their stay in Shadesmar, which is short.

That's not what Wax believes in, that's not something we will even know. For Wax killing someone is one thing, ripping off a part of his soul is something very different. Wax is very uncomfortable with the idea of using spikes that killed somebody and took part of their soul. SoS ch 7:

Quote

He took his earring out of his pocket—the earring of the Pathian religion. His was special. He’d been hand-delivered it under mysterious circumstances. Lately, though, he had avoided wearing it, as the book made clear what it must be. Long ago, a small spike of metal like this had allowed people to communicate with Ruin and Preservation, gods of the ancient world. It was Hemalurgy.
Had this earring, then, been made by killing someone? Hesitantly, he slipped it in.
Unfortunately, a voice said in his mind, your fears about the earring are correct. It is a Hemalurgic spike.

TLM ch 69:

Quote

Ruin. Wax hoped what they’d done hadn’t been too blasphemous.
No, Harmony’s voice said in his head, not blasphemous, Waxillium. More ... a sense of industrious recycling.
“Good to know,” Wax muttered.

TLM epilogue 7:

Quote

He turned to Wax. “Greetings, Brother.”
Wax felt at his abdomen, where he bore his spike. Though he’d been assured being called “brother” by the likes of the kandra and Death didn’t mean he was immortal, it did make him uncomfortable. He’d joined the ranks of an extremely disturbing group. The spiked.
“I’ve considered removing it,” Wax said.

[...]

The spike, though, continued to perpetuate a problem. Who was Wax? Father, lawman, senator? Or was he none of the three? A part of him still worried, after all these years, that he was something else entirely. A pawn.

So no, Wax would never do something like that. Especially after killing Lessie for a second time with a spike.

But you or I would likely risk it