I had the wrong gender

[Zas678]

So, for the longest time, I have been a firm believer that Endowment has been a female. It makes sense- there's lots of color, lots of giving, and restraunts- it makes sense that Endowment would be a girl. And the religion gods usually end up being an interpretation of the Shards, right? And Austre is female, right?

Wrong.

Austre is a guy.

Austre was the true God of men, the one who sent the Returned. The Hallandren had worshiped him too...

And yet, Siri had never seen Austre. She'd taught about him...

pg 155

"Austre is the Idrian god."

I understand, Suseborn wrote. Is he very handsome?...

"He's not a Returned,...

"The Hallandren used to worship him too before...

"He's not a person," Siri said. "He's more of a force. You know, the thing that watches over all the people, who punishes those who don't do what is right and who blesses those who are worthy."

pg 306

That sounds an awful lot like a Shard to me (especially Harmony, who's our other example of a No-Competition Shardic Entity)

And we have previous examples of the people knowing the right genders for their Gods. Almighty is male, the Nightwatcher is female, and the people on Scadrial knew their shards really well.

So I would like to submit that I was wrong- Endowment really is male.

[CrazyRioter]

I agree, I've always believed Endowment was male personally for this reason.

[Chaos]

Frankly, I was rather confused where the Endowment as a girl theory came from because of this. But, to play devil's advocate, I think you're vastly overestimating people's ability to understand Shards. I don't think it's too out of the question that people could have described Austre wrong.

Maybe, maybe not.

[dj26792]

I haven't reread warbreaker since I found out about the cosmere but I always assumed that the force that was returning people was Male, perhaps slightly effeminate, but definitely male, the whole returning system felt like a male idea, especially when people are returned in order to sacrifice themselves for a greater good, its a bit stereotypical but girls in shows and movies always seem to not get why that would be so attractive to the guys, case in point every war movie girlfriend ever.

[Arcanist Lupus]

To some degree, I think you could argue that none of the Shards are really male or female. Gender isn't intrinsic to any of the shards.* Sure, the Shards have bodies, and those bodies are male or female, but the personality of the Shard will align with it's Intent, which is above gender.

*evidence of this is in Mistborn: (spoilers for the series)

Leras was male, but Vin was female, and they could both hold the power just fine. And Sazed, of course, was neither. (and even if Leras was female, Kelsier also held the power, and Alendi was being prepared to hold the power.)

[happyman]

As the only evidence we have, I think the theory that the Shareholder is male is best supported canonically, especially because Siri gets many points about shardhood correct. On the other hand, it's too early to really tell.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

To some degree, I think you could argue that none of the Shards are really male or female. Gender isn't intrinsic to any of the shards.* Sure, the Shards have bodies, and those bodies are male or female, but the personality of the Shard will align with it's Intent, which is above gender.

This, to the max.

Holding a Shard changes you, until it's really just the Shard colored by you. So, the shards we've seen have no genders*, since they have been Shards long enough that their human natures are pretty secondary. And if they don't care anymore, why should we?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

* Yes, there's one or arguably two exceptions to that, as alluded to in Sir R-A-L's spoiler.

[happyman]

This, to the max.

Holding a Shard changes you, until it's really just the Shard colored by you. So, the shards we've seen have no genders*, since they have been Shards long enough that their human natures are pretty secondary. And if they don't care anymore, why should we?

-- Deus Ex Biotica

* Yes, there's one or arguably two exceptions to that, as alluded to in Sir R-A-L's spoiler.

Because we need a pronoun to reference the Shards, and picking the one that corresponds to their physical body makes things so much simpler than getting into an argument about sexism in the English language?

Edited to add: Doesn't Honor refer to Cultivation as "she"? The shards may consider basic physical needs to be beneath them (hard to say), but they certainly remember their physical sex. They need pronouns too, after all. At least when talking with mere mortals.

Edited December 12, 2011 by happyman

[Arcanist Lupus]

Because we need a pronoun to reference the Shards, and picking the one that corresponds to their physical body makes things so much simpler than getting into an argument about sexism in the English language?

Good point, too.

[CrazyRioter]

note that Honor does refer to Cultivation as "she", so the Shards themselves seem to abide by that convention.

[happyman]

Actually, this brings up other things about the Shard's Intents. The minds of the Shardholders might get molded to their Intent, but the Intents have a certain amount of vagueness to them. While it may have been impossible for Preservation to Ruin something in order to Preserve it, surely there must have been some leeway in how the Intent was interpreted? The Shards apparently need a cognitive aspect, and even while they expand and shape that consciousness, surely the consciousness itself has some influence, within its Intent? Thus they may become the embodiment of their power, but the interpretation (or at the least, effectiveness) may still depend on what is left of the individual. Essentially, their original state may not be completely destroyed, insomuch as it does not conflict with the power they hold. In this case, the sex of the original holder might be relevant in some way.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Chaos

[dj26792]

I think it must be, most girls I know go about breaking, or ruining things very differently to how most guys I know do it, just for one example.

[Wispsy]

Ati was a nice man, guess that's why he got locked up for millennia !

[Chaos]

Actually, this brings up other things about the Shard's Intents. The minds of the Shardholders might get molded to their Intent, but the Intents have a certain amount of vagueness to them. While it may have been impossible for Preservation to Ruin something in order to Preserve it, surely there must have been some leeway in how the Intent was interpreted? The Shards apparently need a cognitive aspect, and even while they expand and shape that consciousness, surely the consciousness itself has some influence, within its Intent? Thus they may become the embodiment of their power, but the interpretation (or at the least, effectiveness) may still depend on what is left of the individual. Essentially, their original state may not be completely destroyed, insomuch as it does not conflict with the power they hold. In this case, the sex of the original holder might be relevant in some way.

This is actually the case. I asked Brandon this at Alloy (my report is finally coming this week) and he said that a holder's personality does interpret the Shard's Intent.

(Also, I'm editing that instance of "Shardbearer" to be Shardholder, if you don't mind me doing so)

[happyman]

This is actually the case. I asked Brandon this at Alloy (my report is finally coming this week) and he said that a holder's personality does interpret the Shard's Intent.

(Also, I'm editing that instance of "Shardbearer" to be Shardholder, if you don't mind me doing so)

Oh, no problem.

I'm not surprised that this is the case. If the Shard's Intent completely overwhelmed the Cognitive aspect of the Shardholder, I suspect that there would be no Cognitive aspect worth talking about remaining after a sufficiently long time, and this is clearly not true.

[Tulir]

Ok, I was rereading the third Mistborn book, and on page 653 paperback

The Worldbringers-their word for Keepers-were holy men and women who imparted knowledge, but also wrote of their god, Terr.

Emphasis mine, but this shows that humans don't always get the Shard's names right because Preservation's name was Leras, not Terr, so I think Edgli is the Shardholder

Edited January 8, 2012 by Tulir

[Zas678]

But you forget the root of the word Terris is Terr- which is to Preserve, according to Chapter 75:

The Terris religion, as one might have expected, focused heavily on knowledge and scholarship. The Worldbringers—their word for Keepers—were holy men and women who imparted knowledge, but also wrote of their god, Terr. It was the ancient Terris word for "to preserve." A central focus of the religion had been the histories of how Preservation—or Terr—and Ruin had interacted, and these included various prophecies about the Hero of Ages, who was seen as a successor to Preservation.

So they didn't have the name of the person holding the shard, but they did have the name of the shard itself, which is what is truly relevant to the people on the earth.

[Tulir]

I guess your right but I am going with Edgli for the name because of e Tears of Edgli

[gjustice99]

To some degree, I think you could argue that none of the Shards are really male or female. Gender isn't intrinsic to any of the shards.* Sure, the Shards have bodies, and those bodies are male or female, but the personality of the Shard will align with it's Intent, which is above gender.

*evidence of this is in Mistborn: (spoilers for the series)

Leras was male, but Vin was female, and they could both hold the power just fine. And Sazed, of course, was neither. (and even if Leras was female, Kelsier also held the power, and Alendi was being prepared to hold the power.)

Mistborn Spoiler

Sazed was a guy too. Just because he was a eunuch doesn't mean he isn't a guy

 

Also, has anyone ever asked whether or not Austre is the name of Endowment's shardholder? 

[Newan]

In Elantris,

Shu-Korath worshipped male Domi, the god of love.  However, the shard Devotion was held by Aona, a female.

I don't think that the religions are a trustworthy source of information about the identity of the holder of a shard.  However, I still believe that Endowment is held by a man because Edgli sounds like a guy name to me.  

[RawToast225]

I think the effeminate nature of the world is derived from a cultural thing and not from a shard at all. I think the shard just let people do what they wanted. When they chose to focus on appearance, the shard was all like "Yeah, it's cool if you're gay. Whatevs."

Edited December 15, 2014 by Arthur Dent

[gjustice99]

In Elantris,

Shu-Korath worshipped male Domi, the god of love.  However, the shard Devotion was held by Aona, a female.

I don't think that the religions are a trustworthy source of information about the identity of the holder of a shard.  However, I still believe that Endowment is held by a man because Edgli sounds like a guy name to me.  

Maybe (Elantris/Mistborn/Stormlight Spoilers)

Maybe Domi was Dominion. I mean, it does sound closer. Or at least the name was from Dominion rather than Devotion, as we know that Skai was male. Also, we know that Sazed is male and Pathians refer to him as a male god. As well as the fact that both Honor and Cultivation are worshipped with the proper pronouns for each.

So they may not be as unreliable as you think, thought I also think Endowment's name is probably Edgli as something related to the magic system of the world they are on is usually named for the shardholder.

[WeiryWriter]

Elantris stuff

The Domi/Dominion connection is completely an accident.  Domi is derived from Aon Omi, meaning love (which is related to Devotion).  Dominion is an English word and would not be the name in-cosmere.  Also keep in mind Shu-Keseg dates from after the Splintering so the genders of the related gods can be completely unconnected to those of the Shards since they're already dead at that point.

[gjustice99]

You can't deny the stuff from Roshar though.

[WeiryWriter]

I wasn't trying to, I am personally of the opinion that Endowment is male I was just responding to the Elantris stuff.