Jump to content

Sixth of the Dusk Spoiler Thread


Chaos

Recommended Posts

Nightmaws could be based on the Komodo dragons. In which case they will eat anything that moves and will willing swim great distances to other islands with ease.

 

But Nightmaws rely very heavily on their mind-sense. If they didn't have it from birth, then they'd have a hard time tracking and killing enough to accumulate enough worms to psychic up. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but it doesn't really fit in my mind.

 

I think it's more likely that they've developed/evolved over the years to gain this ability, while augmented by shardic influence, I don't think the worms are directly involved in every nightmaw.

 

I'm trying to picture a nurturing environment in which a young mind-blind nightmaw is coaxed by it's mother to eat a wounded Aviar. Now that I think about it, it's not so crazy, but I personally lean towards convergent evolution being in play here in terms of most animals having mind-sensing abilities.

 

Edit: And Argent just said it far more eloquently.

Edited by Goatborn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So few thoughts. First i feel Sak functions like Atium. Your opponent makes a choice, you see how that choices plays out in how it affects you and you act on it. Just instead of it showing the path and acting on a choice, Sak is showing probabilities. Had Sixth decided to go over to this tree, then the vines would have grabbed him and killed him. If Sixth had decided to go to a certain place in the water, the untow or whatever killed him would have killed him and so on. So I am in the camp that the machine acted like dularium, and Sixth saw all the ways he could potentially die in his tree house based on the choices he made or other inhabitants on the planet made. As I type this, its like the multi-verse theory or Schrodinger's cat. For every choice there is a result or alternate world. Sak is just very specific in showing the choices that lead to death.

 

But I ramble on, now to get to the second point.

 

I think depending on the timeline, it could be argued that Rosharans are the space travelers. We have already seen with 

 

Szeth that you could "die" and be brought back

 

and they already have fabrial technology. They just need to re-learn how to use it. And I could see a culture bound with honor, would find ways to hold "honorably" to a code but still accomplish their goals. Just because at the point in time of the stormlight archive they haven't reached FTL travel, doesn't mean that by the time of Sixth of Dust, that they haven't. 

 

But Nightmaws rely very heavily on their mind-sense. If they didn't have it from birth, then they'd have a hard time tracking and killing enough to accumulate enough worms to psychic up. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but it doesn't really fit in my mind.

 

I think it's more likely that they've developed/evolved over the years to gain this ability, while augmented by shardic influence, I don't think the worms are directly involved in every nightmaw.

 

I'm trying to picture a nurturing environment in which a young mind-blind nightmaw is coaxed by it's mother to eat a wounded Aviar. Now that I think about it, it's not so crazy, but I personally lean towards convergent evolution being in play here in terms of most animals having mind-sensing abilities.

 

Edit: And Argent just said it far more eloquently.

Sorry for the double post, I couldn't figure out how to insert a quote in a post I am editing. One thing to point out in our world, is there is a sea cucumber, that eats plankton i think it was, and incorporates chlorophil into its body, allowing it to then use sunlight like a plant to nourish itself. So mama nightmaw giving baby nightmaw a animal to gain mind sense isn't far fetched at all. In fact we have no idea what a nightmaw's diet is. It is shown that Aviar aren't afraid of nightmaws. In fact trees with Aviar are sought out because of the mindsense blocking. So it would make more sense for the nightmaw's to prey on another creature that potentially preys on the aviar, and gain the ability that way. There are numerous parasites that go through multiple stages of maturation through numerous species. One starts in the water, is eaten by a fish, the fish is eaten by a bird, and then the bird poops out the mature parasite into the water to start the process all over again. 

 

edit: honestly i think the worms are involved in the entire ecosystem. it is stated that the shadows in the water keep close to the islands despite the fact that they could find much better hunting grounds back where the humans live. So the Aviar migrate to the pool which also feeds the plants. So creatures could potentially feed on the aviar or plants, and then in turn their waste is consumed and passes on the ability, or they are consumed and pass on the ability. and then THOSE things are consumed and so on leading the entire ecosystem developing abilities that are at the core the worms/pools

Edited by WeiryWriter
fixed double post
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I'm kinda thinking is that the Nightmaws have consumed worms (either directly or through eating Aviar) and that's how they got their telepathic hunting abilities. Kinda the same with the other psychic creatures in the story.

-

It probably isn't right, but that's just the impression I got.

From the perspective of DST (Developmental Systems Theory), it's entirely possible. Proponents of DST argue that the emphasis on genes as the sole consistent unit of inheritance is flawed, because there are many other things which are consistent elements of an organism's developmental cycle, as such. This is something Pathfinder's post reminded me of. We don't even need to talk in terms of consumption: parasites could be passed from parent to offspring in the nightmaws, the parallel being the transmission of gut bacteria, from mother to offspring in real life. Think in terms of vertical transmission.

Edit: I just thought I should clarify, perhaps, that this isn't really in opposition to convergent evolution. Again, if we drop a gene-centric view, that is to say, if we desist from genic selectionism, then it's very much possible to consider this a way of fleshing out how Nightmaws obtain the parasite in a different way from the Aviar, who seem to have developed (also in a DST-way) a reliable, consistent practice of eating the fruit of Patji's Fingers.

Edited by Kasimir
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you other people for explaining my ideas more accurately than me. :P

-

My personal thinking is that all the animals' psychic abilities originate from the parasites. To me that's much more likely than creatures developing psychic life-sense abilities naturally.

I don't know how exactly they get the parasites, as the others pointed out it could be passed down in some species from parent to child, or they gain them from other creatures at an early age.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And interesting thought. It sounds likely, but I am inclined to disagree. As far as I can tell, the Aviars are a fairly recent product of Brandon's creativity, something he came up not too long before the podcast in which they brainstormed Shadows Beneath. So a couple of years tops. The Way of Kings and the Purelake fish have been around longer than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And interesting thought. It sounds likely, but I am inclined to disagree. As far as I can tell, the Aviars are a fairly recent product of Brandon's creativity, something he came up not too long before the podcast in which they brainstormed Shadows Beneath. So a couple of years tops. The Way of Kings and the Purelake fish have been around longer than that.

 

Well, that's not to say that the idea might have been there when he created the Purelake and then came up with another vehicle for it in the Aviars.  Though I certainly could be wrong.  I didn't listen to the Writing Excuses casts nor have I yet read the additional material in the ebook yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would just like to point out that the definition of parasite is:

 

"An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host."

 

and that with out the worms the birds would be immediately eaten, the trees wouldn't be able to attract stuff, (If some of these theories are true) the night maws wouldn't be able to eat anything, ect.

 

The.

 

Worms.

 

Are.

 

Not.

 

Parasites.

 

They have a mutualistic relationship with the islanders not a parasitic one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was under the impression that the worms had been referred to as parasites in the text and so preferred to remain with the term, but upon checking, have realised that I'd just picked it up from the discussion going on and used it for no particular reason. Symbiotes it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WoP says the worms are symbionts!

-

We need the name of the magic system now. I propose calling it Multiple Unspecified Telepathic Abilities Formed Through Symbiotic Relationships With Invertebrates

MUTAFTSRWI for short. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, symbiont is the preferred term, not symbiote.

 

I think half of the replies you've given me have been corrections to stuff I've said. Did I maybe steal your breakfast sometime ago? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I am reading the pre-edited portion and I came across this quote, emphasis mine:

 

"Could he really have ever been foolish enough to be caught by cutaway vines? Near as he could tell, Sek only showed him plausible deaths. He liked to think that most were fairly unlikely - a vision of what could have happened if he'd been careless, or if his uncle's training hadn't been so extensive"

 

So I definitely feel this supports the Sak seeing probabilities theory. 

 

Also another thought I had, for the camp of the machine NOT containing dularium. What if all the birds/the island felt the probabilities that resulted from the machine being open, were so catastrophic that it was a psychic overload. Kind of like watching a nuclear bomb go off up close and personal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also another thought I had, for the camp of the machine NOT containing dularium. What if all the birds/the island felt the probabilities that resulted from the machine being open, were so catastrophic that it was a psychic overload. Kind of like watching a nuclear bomb go off up close and personal.

 

Based on Vathi's reaction to Sak, where she claimed that Sak's ability was brand new. I'd say that the most of the other Aviars don't have the same Atium-like ability.  So I'd be surprised if this was the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

WoP says the worms are symbionts!

I just mean that in the English language, the usage percentage of "symbiote" is down in the error range for the correct term, "symbiont." Hal Clement once claimed to have accidentally invented "symbiote," but he was not the first person to accidentally use it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on Vathi's reaction to Sak, where she claimed that Sak's ability was brand new. I'd say that the most of the other Aviars don't have the same Atium-like ability.  So I'd be surprised if this was the case.

Excellent point, and I see what your saying. Though this would be a stretch, but how many times in fantasy/sci-fi literature have we seen a character who is "sensitive", pick up something when it is very very strong, despite their "specialization"? Again, I admit, total stretch and I am just spinning possibilities but wouldn't it be possible that the other Aviar do not have to have the "death sight" in order to pick up with their psychic abilities that something could be very VERY wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Father is land god is verry angry and doesnt likme people and its pwoers are lke powers in mistbonr so what if this is where saze put extra ruin? ruin self with parsayte for deathatium power?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think what Aztec is trying to say is that since Patji itself seems to be malevolent, and there are Mistborn-like power-sets (Sak and his visions) perhaps Sazed put some of Ruin's power on First of the Sun to keep the two halves of Harmony balanced.

 

I don't think this is the case, personally. I don't think Sazed could have done this without leaving Scadrial, and I doubt he'd want to put other worlds at risk like that. Powers granted by investiture tend to work in similar ways among different magic systems, so I think that this is just how short-term future sight tends to manifest in the cosmere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think what Aztec is trying to say is that since Patji itself seems to be malevolent, and there are Mistborn-like power-sets (Sak and his visions) perhaps Sazed put some of Ruin's power on First of the Sun to keep the two halves of Harmony balanced.

 

I don't think this is the case, personally. I don't think Sazed could have done this without leaving Scadrial, and I doubt he'd want to put other worlds at risk like that. Powers granted by investiture tend to work in similar ways among different magic systems, so I think that this is just how short-term future sight tends to manifest in the cosmere.

Also the nature of Ruin's power is a net loss. I would buy it if the worms were actual parasites as was defined earlier in this thread, but they do provide some benefit. The worms don't just take, in fact they give. Though it would be kinda funny if you got "blessings" from eating the birds. Then it could be Ruin. Lol, hey what if the fish in pure lake is a form of hemalurgy? By eating them, you consume their spirit web, grafting it to yourself and thus get rid of arthritis or any other abilities they may offer lol. Hey Swimmingly, this all but screams you lolol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hemalurgic fish. I approve of this concept.

Sad thing is, i mainly referenced you after seeing all your posts regarding hemalurgy. It took till I went to bed for it to click in my head regarding your picture too lol :::shakes head::::

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the ending meshes well with the endings of the other stories in the anthology, which most all of them have that "bigger conflicts ahead" sort of open ending.  I think it was cool.

 

Aviars are awesome, definitely wish there was more exposure to them.

 

My thinking is that the emerald pool is just water, since Vathi and Dusk go hide in it and nothing weird or magical happens.

 

I like the idea of the Ones Above being scadrians or having access to scadrian tech.  It's possible that scadrians with their tech/magic, which Brandon has confirmed has space travel built into it, are the real frontrunners of space travel and policy.  The "prime directive" screams Harmony to me.

 

Considering just how big a deal Vathi considers Dusk's raising a mainland bird into powers to be (and her passing off of Sak as not Aviar upon first seeing him), even before the worms discovery, that implies to me that the abilities are based on type of bird and that there are at least a handful of different non-aviar breeds of the birds back on the mainland.  (The previous sentence was probably just awful, grammatically, I apologize.)  That makes me wonder just how many breeds there currently are with known abilities.

 

I think the psychic powers are most likely to be something inherent to the area (direct Splinter presence/influence, perhaps?) rather than EVERYTHING with psychic powers having the worms.  IIRC, even things like the deathants have psychic sensing.  And the fact that the Aviar have to go all the way to Patji, no matter what island they're on, implies that the worms are super localized to that spot.  That implies to me that that's where the Splinter is, even if it isn't the pool itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...