Question about book 3's ending

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

Why didn’t Ruin foresee his death? Based on the powers of atium and electrum, I’m pretty sure one of Ruin and Preservation’s powers is precognition. According to some friends who are well-versed in the Cosmere, when Elend burned atium and duralumin he saw Preservation’s plan - that Vin would kill Ruin and save the world.

If I understand the Metallic Arts correctly, their powers are fueled by tiny pieces of Ruin and Preservation’s powers. I would’ve expected Ruin’s precognition to be far beyond that of Elend.

Why didn’t Ruin foresee Preservation’s plan or his death?

I haven't read Cosmere aside from the Mistborn trilogy and part of Elantris.

[JustQuestin2004]

Because when other people use Precognition, no matter how weak they are in it, it will inevitably muck up other people's Precognition.

Just like when two people Burn Atium and look at each other, they can't see a single Future Shadow. Ruin is also confirmed to be less good at Precognition than other Shards such as Preservation, who is one of the best and managed to out plan Ruin.

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Forums.

Fortune is the term for what you are asking about, and it is very much like @JustQuestin2004 said, the further somebody tries to look, the more the possibilities fracture and split. Finding the most likely outcome becomes extremely difficult. That said, Ruin would also have to be actively looking for the possibility, and his Vessel (the being holding the Shard) was already convinced he couldn't lose - so he wasn't looking at any possibilities, much less that possibility.

Minor Spoilers:

Spoiler

Ruin and Preservation are only two of 16 Shards (there's that number again) and each has an Intent. Based on that Intent, they each have differing levels of ability in using Fortune - with Preservation being among the best, and Ruin being among the worst.

Hope you are enjoying the Cosmere and continue your journey through these stories.

[+robardin]

It's a good question to be having, after reading just the original Mistborn trilogy and "part of" Elantris. (What, you didn't finish it?!)

The nature of what it means when "Cosmere gods (called Shards) seeing the future" is fleshed out further in other works, and you would probably like to read "Mistborn: Secret History" too (which is from the POV of Kelsier, who if you picked up on various hints in The Hero of Ages, was somehow still able to talk to Spook and to Vin at various points, as he "went backstage" to the realm of gods and... travelers after being killed by the Lord Ruler and before Sazed's Ascension).

Though it occurs to me, you should want to finish Elantris first before reading that.

Long story short: as mentioned above, when another being also has "future sight" it becomes a mutual cloudying (is that a verb?) of what is seen, but also different gods have different levels of strength/accuracy in perceiving the threads.

Unlike with humans burning atium, where the cloud causes complete confusion (so that two Mistborn burning atium or electrum give up on the clouds as being a distraction and just fight normally), a god can still pick through the clouds to some degree and plan for some "balance of probability" and trust that things could, might, will play out that way with the right nudging.

Preservation's plan was never "guaranteed" - however, he carefully seeded hints and placed things along the way (which his "ghost" or "shadow" was able to help with, even as it no longer remembered the full plan). The origins of the Terris religion (how did they even know so much about Preservation and Ruin, down even to their names?) is an open question, too.

And then there's the question not just of "what could Ruin see" (as a god), but "what did Ruin want to do (and how he wanted to do it)", and "what he didn't bother looking ahead to because he assumed he already knew".

As events in THoA should make clear, just as Sazed was born mortal and ended up Ascending into (double) godhood, so did Preservation (whose body slumped out of the mists, sharp nosed, dark hair, etc.) and Ruin (red hair, slight build) Ascend to those states from being originally human. The powers they took up shape their actions, but not other elements of their personalities...

...and I'm going to say, Ati the Vessel of Ruin (whence the derived god-metal atium gets its name) had something of a bullying, entitled, overconfident side to him, independent of being Ruin, as if he'd originally been some kind of aristocrat.

For example, in addition to expending the effort to gloat/monologue at Vin, why did he use Marsh as his chief pawn, putting 20-odd hemalurgic spikes in him, among all the Inquisitors left to him by TLR or that he could create anew? Was there no Mistborn Inquisitor who'd have more/stronger powers than Marsh to begin with? Instead, it's stated that he harvested a Mistborn to create a spike to grant A-duralumin (A for Allomancy) to Marsh, which was "a waste" but he did it anyway. I think it had to do with Ruin wanting to "rub it in" to Kelsier's crew, Preservation's pawns in trying to resist him, by using their own former friend.

Or, if he wanted to go the route of building Super Inquisitors that were each "like another Lord Ruler", it'd have been even better to create new Inquisitors not from a Mistborn, but from the captured Keepers, who were all full Feruchemists. Instead of spiking a single Feruchemical power out of each Keeper to give an Inquisitor F-gold, F-steel, F-pewter, etc., as we see several of them using (Marsh having multiple), he could have given each Keeper a bunch of Allomantic spikes from captured Mistings (far more common), and gained many more Compounding pawns that way.

Why didn't he do this? Because like the classic evil overlord of fantasy stories, including Rashek at the end (who could have smeared Vin and Marsh six ways to Sunday but chose to taunt and to monologue along the way), he was so overconfident of his overwhelming advantage he chose the route that would "shock and awe" his opponents the most, instead of giving the greatest possible advantage.

Edited May 25, 2023 by robardin

[cometaryorbit]

I think Ruin was pretty much consumed by the power by the time of HoA. The way he revels in Elend's death is pretty telling. He wasn't thinking about possibilities then. All through HoA he also talks as if Ruin is inevitable, all fighting against him just accelerates destruction, etc.

If the question is why he didn't see his death earlier, I think Preservation was just better at both future sight and planning before he sacrificed his mind.

Secret History spoiler

Spoiler

The vision Kelsier sees through Preservation makes it look like it was a very slim possibility even at that point - after Ruin got free. So Ruin probably missed it.

Re Inquisitors: I think the Keepers were dead before Ruin got loose. It's close time-wise, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Inquisitor attack on the Keeper Synod was before the battle of Luthadel and thus before Vin goes to the Well.

Making Marsh Ruin's number-one does seem like a specific slam to the crew though.

[Walter The Moral]

17 hours ago, robardin said:

...and I'm going to say, Ati the Vessel of Ruin (whence the derived god-metal atium gets its name) had something of a bullying, entitled, overconfident side to him, independent of being Ruin, as if he'd originally been some kind of aristocrat.

 

Minor spoiler for the Way of Kings epigraphs:

Spoiler

In Hoid's letter to Frost, he says that Ati was a kind and generous man before he took the Shard

Quote

 Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him.

 

 

[+robardin]

4 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

Minor spoiler for the Way of Kings epigraphs:

  Hide contents

In Hoid's letter to Frost, he says that Ati was a kind and generous man before he took the Shard

 

 

Yes, I know (but was restricting myself to what we see in Mistborn 1). Also, the two are not necessarily opposite; everybody has moments when they're "dark" or mean-spirited, and holding Ruin brought that side of Ati out to the forefront.

Like, if you imagined a certain "Mr. T" somehow taking up Ruin, I don't think he'd go an inefficient route to victory or fail to try to explore all avenues to defeat, while trying to think like his enemy does. For Ruin to be "gullible" in the way that he was requires a certain personality and attitude to go along with it.

We see this attitude more explicitly in Misborn: Secret History:

Spoiler

"Did you ever play card tricks, Ruin?" Kelsier asked. "Back when you were a common man?"

"I was never a common man," Ruin said. "I was but a Vessel awaiting my power."

"So what did that Vessel do with its time?" Kelsier asked. "Play card tricks?"

"Hardly," Ruin said. "I was a far better man than that."

...

Kelsier smiled. Gods, it appeared, could still fall for a classic misdirection con.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by robardin

[+robardin]

20 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Ruin was pretty much consumed by the power by the time of HoA. The way he revels in Elend's death is pretty telling. He wasn't thinking about possibilities then. All through HoA he also talks as if Ruin is inevitable, all fighting against him just accelerates destruction, etc.

If the question is why he didn't see his death earlier, I think Preservation was just better at both future sight and planning before he sacrificed his mind.

Secret History spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

The vision Kelsier sees through Preservation makes it look like it was a very slim possibility even at that point - after Ruin got free. So Ruin probably missed it.

Re Inquisitors: I think the Keepers were dead before Ruin got loose. It's close time-wise, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Inquisitor attack on the Keeper Synod was before the battle of Luthadel and thus before Vin goes to the Well.

Making Marsh Ruin's number-one does seem like a specific slam to the crew though.

Yeah, Ati was consumed by Ruin by then. And yes I agree, the "line of probability" that Preservation set up was "slim" - but also from a direction Ruin wouldn't be considering at all (similar to what Kelsier is shown as having set up to happen in HoA while "backstage" in Secret History).

Perhaps Ati just "missed it" (seeing what Preservation was going for), but really I don't think he ever even really LOOKED very hard for a subtle counterplan of his: all his planning centered around figuring out the most satisfying way to achieve his inevitable victory, now that Preservation was on a slow slide downwards. To him, he could afford a few setbacks or delays on that front, for that purpose, because he WOULD win in the end, inevitable as a clock winding down. As he says to Vin, what is time to a god? Nothing.

As for acquiring the Keepers and making spikes from them: we first see this happening from Marsh's POV in the prologue to Hero of Ages, which is presumably after the end of TWaA, and it's in Ch. 10 of HoA that Sazed refers to it as being from a year ago:

Quote

I am, perhaps, the very last of the Keepers. It has been a year since the Inquisitors attacked my homeland, killing even the child Feruchemists, ...

Which coincides very closely with when Ruin got free of the Well, for earlier he had reflected that "one year ago, the woman Sazed loved had died" (Tindwyl, in the koloss assault on Luthadel that immediately preceded Vin's finding the Well). So it's hard to say.

Still, harvesting spikes from Mistings (skaa or otherwise) would be much easier/numerous than harvesting one Feruchemical power at a time from the Keepers, eh? The Inquisitors probably had a stash of skaa Mistings towards making the Next Inquisitor at any given time; and if not, spikes could be pulled and reused from another Inquisitor. Sure it'd kill that one, but from Ruin's POV it'd be an in-place upgrade of Inquisitor A with spikes for Allomancy and steelsight and all, to Inquisitor B who's got all that PLUS Feruchemy and Compounding in all the Allomantic metals they now had access to.

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, robardin said:

As for acquiring the Keepers and making spikes from them: we first see this happening from Marsh's POV in the prologue to Hero of Ages, which is presumably after the end of TWaA, and it's in Ch. 10 of HoA that Sazed refers to it as being from a year ago:

The Inquisitors killed the Synod and all of the keepers that were in Terris during WoA. (WoA ch 56)

Spoiler

“The Synod came out into the open, my lord, once the empire fell.” He accepted a cup of his own, but Elend noticed that it was only half full—a precaution that proved wise as the elderly steward’s shaking nearly spilled its contents. “They became our rulers. Perhaps it was not wise to reveal themselves so soon.”

Not all Terrismen were Feruchemists; in fact, very few were. The Keepers—people like Sazed and Tindwyl—had been forced into hiding long ago by the Lord Ruler. His paranoia that Feruchemical and Allomantic lines might mix—thereby potentially producing a person with his same powers—had led him to try and destroy all Feruchemists.

“I’ve known Keepers, friend,” Elend said softly. “I find it hard to believe that they could have been easily defeated. Who did this?”

“Steel Inquisitors, my lord,” the old man said.

Elend shivered. So that’s where they’ve been.

“There were dozens of them, my lord,” the old man said. “They attacked Tathingdwen with an army of koloss brutes. But, that was just a distraction, I think. Their real goal was the Synod and the Keepers themselves. While our army, such as it was, fought the beasts, the Inquisitors themselves struck at the Keepers.”

Marsh, at that time was in Luthadel at Kredik Shaw. After Ruin's release, he used the Inquisitors to hunt the Keepers that had been outside of Terris and were missed in the first culling. (Your reference from the HoA Prologue)

As for why? Well, likely 70-80% of Keepers had become spike donors before Ruin was even released; and Ruin would not care about having a min/maxed minion since he represents Entropy - a net-loss of power. It is more in line with the Intent of Ruin to "waste" 5 (or more) full Feruchemists making spikes for one servant that he already controled.

That is loss... entropy... Ruin.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 5/25/2023 at 4:18 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Because when other people use Precognition, no matter how weak they are in it, it will inevitably muck up other people's Precognition.

Just like when two people Burn Atium and look at each other, they can't see a single Future Shadow. Ruin is also confirmed to be less good at Precognition than other Shards such as Preservation, who is one of the best and managed to out plan Ruin.

 

On 5/25/2023 at 6:11 AM, Treamayne said:

Welcome to the Forums.

Fortune is the term for what you are asking about, and it is very much like @JustQuestin2004 said, the further somebody tries to look, the more the possibilities fracture and split. Finding the most likely outcome becomes extremely difficult. That said, Ruin would also have to be actively looking for the possibility, and his Vessel (the being holding the Shard) was already convinced he couldn't lose - so he wasn't looking at any possibilities, much less that possibility.

Minor Spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin and Preservation are only two of 16 Shards (there's that number again) and each has an Intent. Based on that Intent, they each have differing levels of ability in using Fortune - with Preservation being among the best, and Ruin being among the worst.

Hope you are enjoying the Cosmere and continue your journey through these stories.

Hello there! Sorry for the late reply. Been busy with summer break relaxation, job searching, and reading Elantris. Been struggling with that one but the good news is that I just finished Part 1. Hope the pacing of Elantris improves from now on.

Your replies (on here and my recent thread) make me feel better about Ruin's precognition. So he's not bad at precognition, just bad among his peers? Like an NFL or NBA player compared to college players? I guess that makes sense. Hopefully I see more precog in the rest of the Cosmere. Though I have to wonder how far did Preservation see the future? His plan did succeed, but Preservation's competency depleted over the millennia while Ruin was changing text and influencing people all over the world. And I'm fairly certain weird things were going on with Marsh resisting Ruin's control. 

 

On 5/25/2023 at 10:22 AM, robardin said:

It's a good question to be having, after reading just the original Mistborn trilogy and "part of" Elantris. (What, you didn't finish it?!)

The nature of what it means when "Cosmere gods (called Shards) seeing the future" is fleshed out further in other works, and you would probably like to read "Mistborn: Secret History" too (which is from the POV of Kelsier, who if you picked up on various hints in The Hero of Ages, was somehow still able to talk to Spook and to Vin at various points, as he "went backstage" to the realm of gods and... travelers after being killed by the Lord Ruler and before Sazed's Ascension).

Though it occurs to me, you should want to finish Elantris first before reading that.

Long story short: as mentioned above, when another being also has "future sight" it becomes a mutual cloudying (is that a verb?) of what is seen, but also different gods have different levels of strength/accuracy in perceiving the threads.

Unlike with humans burning atium, where the cloud causes complete confusion (so that two Mistborn burning atium or electrum give up on the clouds as being a distraction and just fight normally), a god can still pick through the clouds to some degree and plan for some "balance of probability" and trust that things could, might, will play out that way with the right nudging.

Preservation's plan was never "guaranteed" - however, he carefully seeded hints and placed things along the way (which his "ghost" or "shadow" was able to help with, even as it no longer remembered the full plan). The origins of the Terris religion (how did they even know so much about Preservation and Ruin, down even to their names?) is an open question, too.

And then there's the question not just of "what could Ruin see" (as a god), but "what did Ruin want to do (and how he wanted to do it)", and "what he didn't bother looking ahead to because he assumed he already knew".

As events in THoA should make clear, just as Sazed was born mortal and ended up Ascending into (double) godhood, so did Preservation (whose body slumped out of the mists, sharp nosed, dark hair, etc.) and Ruin (red hair, slight build) Ascend to those states from being originally human. The powers they took up shape their actions, but not other elements of their personalities...

...and I'm going to say, Ati the Vessel of Ruin (whence the derived god-metal atium gets its name) had something of a bullying, entitled, overconfident side to him, independent of being Ruin, as if he'd originally been some kind of aristocrat.

For example, in addition to expending the effort to gloat/monologue at Vin, why did he use Marsh as his chief pawn, putting 20-odd hemalurgic spikes in him, among all the Inquisitors left to him by TLR or that he could create anew? Was there no Mistborn Inquisitor who'd have more/stronger powers than Marsh to begin with? Instead, it's stated that he harvested a Mistborn to create a spike to grant A-duralumin (A for Allomancy) to Marsh, which was "a waste" but he did it anyway. I think it had to do with Ruin wanting to "rub it in" to Kelsier's crew, Preservation's pawns in trying to resist him, by using their own former friend.

Or, if he wanted to go the route of building Super Inquisitors that were each "like another Lord Ruler", it'd have been even better to create new Inquisitors not from a Mistborn, but from the captured Keepers, who were all full Feruchemists. Instead of spiking a single Feruchemical power out of each Keeper to give an Inquisitor F-gold, F-steel, F-pewter, etc., as we see several of them using (Marsh having multiple), he could have given each Keeper a bunch of Allomantic spikes from captured Mistings (far more common), and gained many more Compounding pawns that way.

Why didn't he do this? Because like the classic evil overlord of fantasy stories, including Rashek at the end (who could have smeared Vin and Marsh six ways to Sunday but chose to taunt and to monologue along the way), he was so overconfident of his overwhelming advantage he chose the route that would "shock and awe" his opponents the most, instead of giving the greatest possible advantage.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I didn't think about the possibility of using Feruchemists as Inquisitors. I don't like that Ruin didn't go that route, and a part of me thinks he was a smarter Chessmaster when "imprisoned" in the Well. But, oh well. Though I won't lie, part of Ruin's "incompetence" towards the end of HoA feels like plot convenience. 

 

On 5/25/2023 at 0:29 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think Ruin was pretty much consumed by the power by the time of HoA. The way he revels in Elend's death is pretty telling. He wasn't thinking about possibilities then. All through HoA he also talks as if Ruin is inevitable, all fighting against him just accelerates destruction, etc.

If the question is why he didn't see his death earlier, I think Preservation was just better at both future sight and planning before he sacrificed his mind.

Secret History spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

The vision Kelsier sees through Preservation makes it look like it was a very slim possibility even at that point - after Ruin got free. So Ruin probably missed it.

Re Inquisitors: I think the Keepers were dead before Ruin got loose. It's close time-wise, so I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Inquisitor attack on the Keeper Synod was before the battle of Luthadel and thus before Vin goes to the Well.

Making Marsh Ruin's number-one does seem like a specific slam to the crew though.

That first part feels like plot convenience. I now know there's future sight blocking which I guess came from the grand burning of atium, and Preservation having better future sight than Ruin, but it feels somewhat wishy-washy. When he was imprisoned Ruin was a subtle mastermind manipulating religions, influencing TLR and the unstable, guiding Kelsier into creating his rebellion, and planting spikes all over the place. He gave instructions to TLR on how to create Inquisitors, when their Canton wasn't even created until the 6th century. Even after being released he was pushing Vin and Elend into corners to drive them into finding the storage caverns. It feels like Ruin suddenly not using the kandra or foreseeing the possibility of his death was solely written so that Vin can succeed.

 

[Firesong]

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

 

Hello there! Sorry for the late reply. Been busy with summer break relaxation, job searching, and reading Elantris. Been struggling with that one but the good news is that I just finished Part 1. Hope the pacing of Elantris improves from now on.

Your replies (on here and my recent thread) make me feel better about Ruin's precognition. So he's not bad at precognition, just bad among his peers? Like an NFL or NBA player compared to college players? I guess that makes sense. Hopefully I see more precog in the rest of the Cosmere. Though I have to wonder how far did Preservation see the future? His plan did succeed, but Preservation's competency depleted over the millennia while Ruin was changing text and influencing people all over the world. And I'm fairly certain weird things were going on with Marsh resisting Ruin's control. 

 

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I didn't think about the possibility of using Feruchemists as Inquisitors. I don't like that Ruin didn't go that route, and a part of me thinks he was a smarter Chessmaster when "imprisoned" in the Well. But, oh well. Though I won't lie, part of Ruin's "incompetence" towards the end of HoA feels like plot convenience. 

 

That first part feels like plot convenience. I now know there's future sight blocking which I guess came from the grand burning of atium, and Preservation having better future sight than Ruin, but it feels somewhat wishy-washy. When he was imprisoned Ruin was a subtle mastermind manipulating religions, influencing TLR and the unstable, guiding Kelsier into creating his rebellion, and planting spikes all over the place. He gave instructions to TLR on how to create Inquisitors, when their Canton wasn't even created until the 6th century. Even after being released he was pushing Vin and Elend into corners to drive them into finding the storage caverns. It feels like Ruin suddenly not using the kandra or foreseeing the possibility of his death was solely written so that Vin can succeed.

 

Ruin did try to use the Kandra, and they did the Resolution in response to it. Kandra are also more resistant to control due to only having two spikes, so it was more difficult (TenSoon was easier due to the fact he wanted to be controlled by Vin, as he didn't want to follow the other orders). But Ruin very much did try to control them.

And in Foreseeing the possibility of his death, well, there are so many different possibilities, and he is actively not the best amongst the Shards. He was blinded by his thoughts about how Ruin was an inevitability, making his view of the future even more clouded. It is also very difficult to accurately predict the actions of other Vessels, so upon Vin taking up Preservation, he kinda couldn't predict her well anymore. Future Sight is difficult, we see it used in Stormlight, and it is basically an infinite fractal of possibilities, it isn't so easy to go through and find out what will happen. Preservation was just extremely good at it. 

Also, I don't recall Ruin teaching TLR how to create Inquisitors, iirc, that just came from the knowledge granted from the Well in how the Metallic Arts worked. Same with how he learned how he could create Kandra and Koloss. 

And how does it seem like plot convenience? It is pretty consistent in the Cosmere that over time people become completely consumed by the Intent to the point it can completely change their worldview and limit their actions. Like how Preservation became barely capable of doing anything that would create a change in the world, any actions against the intent of the status quo is very difficult and causes great pain to him. We see the same with other Shards as well, it is a very consistent part of the worldbuilding. 

 

And on what Elend did, he basically saw directly into the Spiritual Realm, bypassing the ordinary limits of Atium due to the exact manner in which he used it (And current theories is that that was the effect of pure Atium (the atium in the pits of Hathsin are impure, with a bit of Electrum, thats why the effects are so similar to electrum. This was done partially to leave it even further separated from Ruin)). So, that is why it became so good, he basically copied the manner in which Shards see the future, if only for a very brief moment. The reason they called it atium back then is due to them thinking it was pure atium. This change is talked about in WoBs, implied in Era 2, and also implied in the Metal Arts Table Posters. 

Quote

Allomancy: Pure atium grants the Allomancer an expansive vision of the future and enhances the mind's ability to accept, process, and hold information. In alloy form, it produces various expanded mental and temporal effects.

Feruchemy: (The explanation on the table is just, nobody knows, definitely gonna be important later)

Hemalurgy: Steals any power, must be refined

 

I am actually very excited to see it expanded upon in Era 3. It just makes so much sense and explains so much of Era 1 that didn't make full sense with what we knew about God Metals. Like how everyone would be able to burn a God Metal (this is why anybody could burn Lerasium, those Mistborn-creating Beads), but not everyone could burn Atium. 

(This retcon is actually very old, dates back to 2009. So it has been canon for a long time, 

Quote

Aranfan

I thought we had reached a consensus that the Atium we see the characters use was the Electrum Alloy form?

Peter Ahlstrom

I thought myself so clever for coming up with this theory.

At this point I am in a position where I could confirm it or deny it.

However, my position also means that I must do no such thing.

Mwa ha ha ha ha.

From a 2009 post. So, while it is a retcon, it makes perfect sense in context and has been a thing for over a decade. Just was only confirmed a year or so back. Update, the idea was there, but Brandon was actually more on the fence for a while after this, so the idea was around in his team, but it was only definitely made canon more recently. )

Edited July 10, 2023 by Firesong

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

30 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Ruin did try to use the Kandra, and they did the Resolution in response to it. Kandra are also more resistant to control due to only having two spikes, so it was more difficult (TenSoon was easier due to the fact he wanted to be controlled by Vin, as he didn't want to follow the other orders). But Ruin very much did try to control them.

And in Foreseeing the possibility of his death, well, there are so many different possibilities, and he is actively not the best amongst the Shards. He was blinded by his thoughts about how Ruin was an inevitability, making his view of the future even more clouded. It is also very difficult to accurately predict the actions of other Vessels, so upon Vin taking up Preservation, he kinda couldn't predict her well anymore. Future Sight is difficult, we see it used in Stormlight, and it is basically an infinite fractal of possibilities, it isn't so easy to go through and find out what will happen. Preservation was just extremely good at it. 

Also, I don't recall Ruin teaching TLR how to create Inquisitors, iirc, that just came from the knowledge granted from the Well in how the Metallic Arts worked. Same with how he learned how he could create Kandra and Koloss. 

And how does it seem like plot convenience? It is pretty consistent in the Cosmere that over time people become completely consumed by the Intent to the point it can completely change their worldview and limit their actions. Like how Preservation became barely capable of doing anything that would create a change in the world, any actions against the intent of the status quo is very difficult and causes great pain to him. We see the same with other Shards as well, it is a very consistent part of the worldbuilding. 

 

And on what Elend did, he basically saw directly into the Spiritual Realm, bypassing the ordinary limits of Atium due to the exact manner in which he used it (And current theories is that that was the effect of pure Atium (the atium in the pits of Hathsin are impure, with a bit of Electrum, thats why the effects are so similar to electrum. This was done partially to leave it even further separated from Ruin)). So, that is why it became so good, he basically copied the manner in which Shards see the future, if only for a very brief moment. The reason they called it atium back then is due to them thinking it was pure atium. This change is talked about in WoBs, implied in Era 2, and also implied in the Metal Arts Table Posters. 

 

I am actually very excited to see it expanded upon in Era 3. It just makes so much sense and explains so much of Era 1 that didn't make full sense with what we knew about God Metals. Like how everyone would be able to burn a God Metal (this is why anybody could burn Lerasium, those Mistborn-creating Beads), but not everyone could burn Atium. 

(This retcon is actually very old, dates back to 2009. So it has been canon for a long time, 

From a 2009 post. So, while it is a retcon, it makes perfect sense in context and has been a thing for over a decade. Just was only confirmed a year or so back)

Like I said I’ve only come off the trilogy and now Elantris Part 1. So I don’t know how the Cosmere stuff play into Era 1.

I don’t think Ruin and Preservation are as impotent as you think. Sazed in the ch. 9 epigraph said that Ruin whispered “certain things” to Rashek during his Ascension, and Preservation Vin saw through the power’s history/memories that he directed him toward the creation of Hemalurgic constructs. While afterwards Rashek couldn’t create any other constructs. According to Sazed by the time of Preservation’s death - 

“Gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a bare gesture, gone—even—were the days when he could strike a man down to bleed and die.”

This implies that in earlier eras of Scadrial, Preservation could change the world and kill people if it meant preserving the status quo. Which makes a lot more sense than him being impotent stasis. Rashek with a tiny piece of Preservation changed the world on planetary orbital, geographical, biological, and atmospherical scales. Ruin is intelligent decay able to build things up if it meant he could knock down things. Even the divine bargain is an example of Ruin doing this. 

Thanks for explaining the atium!

[Firesong]

15 minutes ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Like I said I’ve only come off the trilogy and now Elantris Part 1. So I don’t know how the Cosmere stuff play into Era 1.

I don’t think Ruin and Preservation are as impotent as you think. Sazed in the ch. 9 epigraph said that Ruin whispered “certain things” to Rashek during his Ascension, and Preservation Vin saw through the power’s history/memories that he directed him toward the creation of Hemalurgic constructs. While afterwards Rashek couldn’t create any other constructs. According to Sazed by the time of Preservation’s death - 

“Gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a bare gesture, gone—even—were the days when he could strike a man down to bleed and die.”

This implies that in earlier eras of Scadrial, Preservation could change the world and kill people if it meant preserving the status quo. Which makes a lot more sense than him being impotent stasis. Rashek with a tiny piece of Preservation changed the world on planetary orbital, geographical, biological, and atmospherical scales. Ruin is intelligent decay able to build things up if it meant he could knock down things. Even the divine bargain is an example of Ruin doing this. 

Thanks for explaining the atium!

On Rashek, he only had it for a very short time. The influence that Intent has on somebody is far more gradual, it slowly influences somebody and comes to limit and control them, rather than instantly doing so. 

And yeah, Preservation could do something if it meant keeping the status quo. But doing something that changes the status quo is very difficult. 

And I feel part of why Rashek couldn't make more Constructs, is that he only had three ideas while he had access to the knowledge. After losing it, he could no longer accurately do it. New Hemalurgic Constructs are very difficult to make, so they tend to keep more to specific ones.  That is my own personal theory on the matter. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

That first part feels like plot convenience. I now know there's future sight blocking which I guess came from the grand burning of atium, and Preservation having better future sight than Ruin, but it feels somewhat wishy-washy.

I'm sorry to say it, but maybe the Cosmere isn't the series for you. The way that Fortune interferes with Fortune is integral to many future plotlines and abilities in multiple worlds. What you saw in Mistborn Era 1 is consistent with what you can expect to see if you cnotinue reading the Cosmere.

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

When he was imprisoned Ruin was a subtle mastermind manipulating religions, influencing TLR and the unstable, guiding Kelsier into creating his rebellion, and planting spikes all over the place. ... Even after being released he was pushing Vin and Elend into corners to drive them into finding the storage caverns. It feels like Ruin suddenly not using the kandra or foreseeing the possibility of his death was solely written so that Vin can succeed.

When he was imprisoned that was all Ruin could do, was try to influence some people in subtle ways. However, I think you are forgetting something. It was the irony of the entire ending:

Spoiler

HoA (Epigraphs CH 23-24):

Spoiler

Nobody really knew what Kelsier did in the years between his escape from the Pits of Hathsin and his return to Luthadel. When pressed, he simply said that he had been in “the West.” Somehow in his wanderings he discovered stories that no Keeper had ever heard. Most of the crew didn’t know what to make of the legends he spoke of. This might have been the first seed that made even his oldest friends begin to question his leadership.

 now believe that Kelsier’s stories, legends, and prophecies about the “Eleventh Metal” were fabricated by Ruin. Kelsier was looking for a way to kill the Lord Ruler, and Ruin—ever subtle—provided a way.

That secret was indeed crucial. Kelsier’s Eleventh Metal provided the very clue we needed to defeat the Lord Ruler. However, even in this, we were manipulated. The Lord Ruler knew Ruin’s goals, and would never have released him from the Well of Ascension. So, Ruin needed other pawns—and for that to happen, the Lord Ruler needed to die. Even our greatest victory was shaped by Ruin’s subtle fingers.

HoA (57):

Spoiler

Ruin shook its head. “I would have thought at the very least that you’d have killed Yomen.”

“Why are you so concerned with his death?” Vin asked. “It seems to me that he’s on your side.”

Ruin shook its head, standing with hands clasped behind its back. “You still don’t understand, I see. You’re all on my side, Vin. I created you. You’re my tools—each and every one of you. Zane, Yomen, you, your dear Emperor Venture ...”

“No. Zane was yours, and Yomen is obviously misguided. But Elend ... he’ll fight against you.”

“But he can’t,” Ruin said. “That’s what you refuse to understand, child. You cannot fight me, for by the mere act of fighting you advance my goals.”

“Evil men, perhaps, help you,” Vin said. “But not Elend. He’s a good person, and not even you can deny that.”

“Vin, Vin. Why can’t you see? This isn’t about good or evil. Morality doesn’t even enter into it. Good men will kill as quickly for what they want as evil men—only the things they want are different.”

Vin fell silent.

HoA (81):

Spoiler

And Vin drove on.

Preservation could never destroy you! she thought, almost screaming it against the agony. He could only protect. That’s why he needed to create humankind. All along, Ruin, this was part of his plan!

He didn’t give up part of himself, making himself weaker, simply so that he could create intelligent life! He knew he needed something of both Preservation and of Ruin. Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.

He gave up his power at the Well, and into the mists, giving it to us so that we could take it. He always intended this to happen. You think this was your plan? It was his. His all along.

Ruin cried out. Still, she drove on.

 

. The Irony was, of course, that Preservation had already accounted for Ruin's interference. That's why the "sign of 16" had to be something that Ruin could not change. It's why the Prophecy of the Hero was written as ambiguous as it was - so it could be fulfilled despite meddling. That's why Preservation marked Vin to draw mists at birth, so that Ruin would sculpt her into a weapon that, once she Ascended, would still be able to use the power of the Shard in a method counter to its Intent - she hadn't held it long enough to be constrained by that Intent.  The Irony is that no matter how much Ruin claims "it was my plan all along" it was really Preservation;s plan all along, and even Ruin got played because Preservation was able to predict his most likely courses of Action.

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

 influencing TLR and the unstable, guiding Kelsier into creating his rebellion, and planting spikes all over the place. He gave instructions to TLR on how to create Inquisitors, when their Canton wasn't even created until the 6th century. 

TLR learned of Hemalurgy while holdinging the power of the Well. Ruin didn't teach him to make Inquisitors, Koloss and Kandra. But, after the Empire was going Ruin certainly tormented TLR physchologically, and probably pushed him to greater atrocities.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I'm sorry to say it, but maybe the Cosmere isn't the series for you. The way that Fortune interferes with Fortune is integral to many future plotlines and abilities in multiple worlds. What you saw in Mistborn Era 1 is consistent with what you can expect to see if you cnotinue reading the Cosmere.

I never said this future sight stuff was bad. It's a unique portrayal of precognition and I can somewhat deal with Preservation being the better seer. But I can still feel that certain actions of HoA Ruin contradict the subtle mastermind that used the Terris, Kelsier and his crew, and TLR while they were none the wiser. 

 

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

When he was imprisoned that was all Ruin could do, was try to influence some people in subtle ways. However, I think you are forgetting something. It was the irony of the entire ending:

  Reveal hidden contents

HoA (Epigraphs CH 23-24):

  Reveal hidden contents

Nobody really knew what Kelsier did in the years between his escape from the Pits of Hathsin and his return to Luthadel. When pressed, he simply said that he had been in “the West.” Somehow in his wanderings he discovered stories that no Keeper had ever heard. Most of the crew didn’t know what to make of the legends he spoke of. This might have been the first seed that made even his oldest friends begin to question his leadership.

 now believe that Kelsier’s stories, legends, and prophecies about the “Eleventh Metal” were fabricated by Ruin. Kelsier was looking for a way to kill the Lord Ruler, and Ruin—ever subtle—provided a way.

That secret was indeed crucial. Kelsier’s Eleventh Metal provided the very clue we needed to defeat the Lord Ruler. However, even in this, we were manipulated. The Lord Ruler knew Ruin’s goals, and would never have released him from the Well of Ascension. So, Ruin needed other pawns—and for that to happen, the Lord Ruler needed to die. Even our greatest victory was shaped by Ruin’s subtle fingers.

HoA (57):

  Reveal hidden contents

Ruin shook its head. “I would have thought at the very least that you’d have killed Yomen.”

“Why are you so concerned with his death?” Vin asked. “It seems to me that he’s on your side.”

Ruin shook its head, standing with hands clasped behind its back. “You still don’t understand, I see. You’re all on my side, Vin. I created you. You’re my tools—each and every one of you. Zane, Yomen, you, your dear Emperor Venture ...”

“No. Zane was yours, and Yomen is obviously misguided. But Elend ... he’ll fight against you.”

“But he can’t,” Ruin said. “That’s what you refuse to understand, child. You cannot fight me, for by the mere act of fighting you advance my goals.”

“Evil men, perhaps, help you,” Vin said. “But not Elend. He’s a good person, and not even you can deny that.”

“Vin, Vin. Why can’t you see? This isn’t about good or evil. Morality doesn’t even enter into it. Good men will kill as quickly for what they want as evil men—only the things they want are different.”

Vin fell silent.

HoA (81):

  Reveal hidden contents

And Vin drove on.

Preservation could never destroy you! she thought, almost screaming it against the agony. He could only protect. That’s why he needed to create humankind. All along, Ruin, this was part of his plan!

He didn’t give up part of himself, making himself weaker, simply so that he could create intelligent life! He knew he needed something of both Preservation and of Ruin. Something that could both protect and destroy. Something that could destroy to protect.

He gave up his power at the Well, and into the mists, giving it to us so that we could take it. He always intended this to happen. You think this was your plan? It was his. His all along.

Ruin cried out. Still, she drove on.

 

. The Irony was, of course, that Preservation had already accounted for Ruin's interference. That's why the "sign of 16" had to be something that Ruin could not change. It's why the Prophecy of the Hero was written as ambiguous as it was - so it could be fulfilled despite meddling. That's why Preservation marked Vin to draw mists at birth, so that Ruin would sculpt her into a weapon that, once she Ascended, would still be able to use the power of the Shard in a method counter to its Intent - she hadn't held it long enough to be constrained by that Intent.  The Irony is that no matter how much Ruin claims "it was my plan all along" it was really Preservation;s plan all along, and even Ruin got played because Preservation was able to predict his most likely courses of Action.

Holy crap I did not catch that. You're telling that creating humanity was part of Preservation's plan??? That Scadrial's history was in a nutshell, God having a plan for everything??? That is crazy, and honestly beautiful. Though it's terrifying knowing that Sazed has the full history, knowledge, and memories of this caliber of Chessmaster and another respectable Chessmaster.

I mean, just yesterday I made a list of Preservation's plans that I could perceive. But this takes the cake. 

 

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

TLR learned of Hemalurgy while holdinging the power of the Well. Ruin didn't teach him to make Inquisitors, Koloss and Kandra. But, after the Empire was going Ruin certainly tormented TLR physchologically, and probably pushed him to greater atrocities.

Yes he did. Sazed in the ch. 9 epigraph said that Ruin whispered “certain things” to Rashek during his Ascension, and Preservation Vin saw through the power’s history/memories that he directed Rashek towards the creation of Hemalurgic constructs. It's true that the Well of Ascension allowed him to understand the mind, biology and the soul, which are probably crucial to Hemalurgy. But he couldn't have learned of Hemalurgy itself without Ruin's tutelage. This is why I'm frustrated at Ruin not influencing the kandra until the last minute. 

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Though it's terrifying knowing that Sazed has the full history, knowledge, and memories of this caliber of Chessmaster and another respectable Chessmaster.

I mean, just yesterday I made a list of Preservation's plans that I could perceive. But this takes the cake.

Just because Leras (the vessel of Preservation) was the Chessmaster and was able to Batman Gambit Ati does not mean that Sazed holding the same shards willl be able to exercise the same manipulative finesse.

Much of this information comes from the Annotations (free on Sanderson's website - TFE - WoA - HoA). Though, even Brandon can be a bit of an unreliable narrator in the these when he was trying to obfuscate spoilers for future books.

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

According to TenSoon in Chapter 62, Rashek spoke directly to the minds of his Feruchemist friends during the Ascension.

That's what I was trying to say without too many spoilers. This is explained in much more detail in Mistborn Secret History (spoilers for Bands of Mourning) - Basically the normal method for a Shard to insert throughts is to gain access to the Soul's Cognitive through the "cracks" (Spiritual damage). Preservation cannot make use of this technique, because the intent of the Shard when touching this damage is to fix it (whereas Ruin is fine with Damage - "let's make the cracks wider") - so, in order to send a thought with the power of Preservation, there has to be some other method of reaching the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects - Vin's Connection to Elend (the power of love) and Rashek's Connection to his true companions (the power of Friendship). If you are looking for the pattern, you will see it continue in other Cosmere and future Mistborn books.

47 minutes ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

So... the equivalent for Preservation is seeing events that lead to the status quo being maintained?

So, without getting too specific (spoilers) think of it like a Carnival "fortune telling" machine or the Magic 8-Ball - where you are instructed to "voice" a question and get a response that supposedly relates to that question. Obviously the analogy falls apart on the specifics, but you can hopefully see the correlation. Ruin could better interpret Fortune relating to his intent (e. g. it is better to blow the volcano now, or will it destroy more if I wait) and Preservation could better interpret Fortune applying to his intent (e.g. what courses of action will lead to preventing the destruction of Scadrial). The Nature of Preservation's intent just leads to longer-range information in most corcumstances. The important thing is that the Shard's Vessel has to both:

1. Know to ask the question/seek the information in the first place
2. Be able to interpret what they find

Ruin would never consider that Preservation could destroy (regardless of the Vessel) since he "knew" it was counter to the Shard's intent. That the piece of information that Preservation discovered over 2000yrs ago; the data that Preservation crafted the grand game to obscure (because if Ruin ever questioned the validy of this false assumption - the whole plan would fail). Leras learned that if he truly wanted to Preserve Scadrial he would have to:

1. Sacrifice himself in such a way that the next vessel would have the information necessary to know what to do,
2. Also be willing to sacrifice themselves to accomplish the task
3. All while keeping Ruin distracted enough to make him think he was successfully "interfering" while making sure he didn't ask the right questions to guess Leras' end game.

3 minutes ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Sazed in the ch. 9 epigraph said that Ruin whispered “certain things” to Rashek during his Ascension, and Preservation Vin saw through the power’s history/memories that he directed Rashek towards the creation of Hemalurgic constructs. It's true that the Well of Ascension allowed him to understand the mind, biology and the soul, which are probably crucial to Hemalurgy. But he couldn't have learned of Hemalurgy itself without Ruin's tutelage. This is why I'm frustrated at Ruin not influencing the kandra until the last minute. 

It's the difference between "look behind you" and "let me teach you to build a nuke." Yes, Ruin whispered to Rashek that Hemalurgy existed. The nature of the Shard let him see and learn how to make a few specific Hemalurgic Constructs (and also let him know that doing so would make them vulnerable to Ruin's control should Ruin escape). Which is why Rashek used Constructs with differing numbers of Spikes (more spikes means easier control** which implies less spikes means harder to control) then he carefully only used Kandra as spies (a "talent" Ruin would discount and consider useless once freed) all so Ruin would ignore them because he had better and more numerous toys to play with (that were not also protected by hiding in a huge metal-laced cave network that made it difficult to "see" them). The Resolution was Rashek's Gambit to prevent the Kandra from being controlled once discovered (since only two spikes would buy them some time to feel the effects and take action to prevent it).

**Note: That while the number of Spikes in an Inquisitor made Ruin's control of them more complete - they were not necessarily mure vulnerable to a Mistborn's control the way Koloss and Kandra were since they had Allomantic Copper to prevent a Mistborn's Soothing and Rioting. Willpower also plays a part, but basically to control an Inquisitor you would have to have the power of a Shard (Ruin) or be able to compound (Rashek). But once control was established, it was far more complete (as seen by Marsh's POV chapters).

Sorry I combined responses from both threads here, but I felt it would help since the topics were so similar and mutually referencial.

Hope that helps.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:03 AM, Treamayne said:

Just because Leras (the vessel of Preservation) was the Chessmaster and was able to Batman Gambit Ati does not mean that Sazed holding the same shards willl be able to exercise the same manipulative finesse.

Much of this information comes from the Annotations (free on Sanderson's website - TFE - WoA - HoA). Though, even Brandon can be a bit of an unreliable narrator in the these when he was trying to obfuscate spoilers for future books.

That's what I was trying to say without too many spoilers. This is explained in much more detail in Mistborn Secret History (spoilers for Bands of Mourning) - Basically the normal method for a Shard to insert throughts is to gain access to the Soul's Cognitive through the "cracks" (Spiritual damage). Preservation cannot make use of this technique, because the intent of the Shard when touching this damage is to fix it (whereas Ruin is fine with Damage - "let's make the cracks wider") - so, in order to send a thought with the power of Preservation, there has to be some other method of reaching the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects - Vin's Connection to Elend (the power of love) and Rashek's Connection to his true companions (the power of Friendship). If you are looking for the pattern, you will see it continue in other Cosmere and future Mistborn books.

So, without getting too specific (spoilers) think of it like a Carnival "fortune telling" machine or the Magic 8-Ball - where you are instructed to "voice" a question and get a response that supposedly relates to that question. Obviously the analogy falls apart on the specifics, but you can hopefully see the correlation. Ruin could better interpret Fortune relating to his intent (e. g. it is better to blow the volcano now, or will it destroy more if I wait) and Preservation could better interpret Fortune applying to his intent (e.g. what courses of action will lead to preventing the destruction of Scadrial). The Nature of Preservation's intent just leads to longer-range information in most corcumstances. The important thing is that the Shard's Vessel has to both:

1. Know to ask the question/seek the information in the first place
2. Be able to interpret what they find

Ruin would never consider that Preservation could destroy (regardless of the Vessel) since he "knew" it was counter to the Shard's intent. That the piece of information that Preservation discovered over 2000yrs ago; the data that Preservation crafted the grand game to obscure (because if Ruin ever questioned the validy of this false assumption - the whole plan would fail). Leras learned that if he truly wanted to Preserve Scadrial he would have to:

1. Sacrifice himself in such a way that the next vessel would have the information necessary to know what to do,
2. Also be willing to sacrifice themselves to accomplish the task
3. All while keeping Ruin distracted enough to make him think he was successfully "interfering" while making sure he didn't ask the right questions to guess Leras' end game.

It's the difference between "look behind you" and "let me teach you to build a nuke." Yes, Ruin whispered to Rashek that Hemalurgy existed. The nature of the Shard let him see and learn how to make a few specific Hemalurgic Constructs (and also let him know that doing so would make them vulnerable to Ruin's control should Ruin escape). Which is why Rashek used Constructs with differing numbers of Spikes (more spikes means easier control** which implies less spikes means harder to control) then he carefully only used Kandra as spies (a "talent" Ruin would discount and consider useless once freed) all so Ruin would ignore them because he had better and more numerous toys to play with (that were not also protected by hiding in a huge metal-laced cave network that made it difficult to "see" them). The Resolution was Rashek's Gambit to prevent the Kandra from being controlled once discovered (since only two spikes would buy them some time to feel the effects and take action to prevent it).

**Note: That while the number of Spikes in an Inquisitor made Ruin's control of them more complete - they were not necessarily mure vulnerable to a Mistborn's control the way Koloss and Kandra were since they had Allomantic Copper to prevent a Mistborn's Soothing and Rioting. Willpower also plays a part, but basically to control an Inquisitor you would have to have the power of a Shard (Ruin) or be able to compound (Rashek). But once control was established, it was far more complete (as seen by Marsh's POV chapters).

Sorry I combined responses from both threads here, but I felt it would help since the topics were so similar and mutually referencial.

Hope that helps.

Good point about Sazed. He lacks experience after all. However, I don’t think we can ever truly know the ways Shards formulate plans and process information. But, what would I know lol. I have a lot to RAFO. 

I appreciate you for explaining Shard precognition. And it helps because it reminds me of a character from Worm, which I haven’t read yet but occasionally look at the Wiki. In Worm there is a character that asks a question. Once she asks a question, she perceives trillions of possible futures and sorts them into groups that see the percentage chance of something occurring in the future.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

I read the part about Rashek and Hemalurgy. I know the Well granted him the instinctive knowledge that helps make constructs, but he did not know Hemalurgy was Ruin’s domain. If he did, he wouldn’t have created so many constructs and would’ve mentioned it to the people of Scadrial. 

I know doing otherwise would be congruous with Preservation’s scheming. But even here, we do have to remember that Rashek is just a human using the barest pieces of precognition and knowledge granted by Preservation, who’s mind was reduced at this point. And if he did mention it to the people of Scadrial, there’s the significant advantage of Ruin not being able to read it. But this didn’t happen. I can believe that Preservation was able to manipulate the previous Slivers and relevant pawns to trick Ruin with such bone dry accuracy. Not so much during the eras of Alendi/Rashek/Kwaan and Vin.

Based on what happened over the millennium, it’s more likely that Rashek was legitimately unaware Hemalurgy is Ruin’s domain. Rather, the Resolution stemmed from the knowledge of the fact that Ruin can touch the minds of all Scadrial’s people.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

I read the part about Rashek and Hemalurgy. I know the Well granted him the instinctive knowledge that helps make constructs, but he did not know Hemalurgy was Ruin’s domain. If he did, he wouldn’t have created so many constructs and would’ve mentioned it to the people of Scadrial. 

I know doing otherwise would be congruous with Preservation’s scheming. But even here, we do have to remember that Rashek is just a human using the barest pieces of precognition and knowledge granted by Preservation, who’s mind was reduced at this point. And if he did mention it to the people of Scadrial, there’s the significant advantage of Ruin not being able to read it. But this didn’t happen. I can believe that Preservation was able to manipulate the previous Slivers and relevant pawns to trick Ruin with such bone dry accuracy. Not so much during the eras of Alendi/Rashek/Kwaan and Vin.

Based on what happened over the millennium, it’s more likely that Rashek was legitimately unaware Hemalurgy is Ruin’s domain. Rather, the Resolution stemmed from the knowledge of the fact that Ruin can touch the minds of all Scadrial’s people.

Interesting theory. Here's what Brandon said in the Annotations on the subject:

Spoiler

Why the Lord Ruler Created the Kandra as They Are

You may have noticed something in this chapter. TenSoon mentions the food pits that the kandra people cultivate, a mixture of algae and fungus that they grow in holes in the ground. Yes, they can survive on this. No, it doesn't taste very good. However, it doesn't need light to grow.

Humankind couldn't survive on this mixture, unfortunately. However, one thing that is never brought up in the text is something that not even the kandra know. There are several reasons that the Lord Ruler created them as he did. One of those reasons was so that there would be a people who could survive beneath the ground, should the world above be destroyed by the mists. In other words, he created a race of subterranean dwellers to outlast humankind, should that become necessary. He was the one who gave them the Homeland as their inheritance and taught them to begin growing food that would survive underground.

Then, of course, he decided to add the Resolution to their code of law. That was a precaution in case Ruin decided to claim them as his own. A bit self-defeating, true, but the Lord Ruler felt it was better for them to die than to become pawns of his most dangerous enemy.

Note: Ruin controls Hemalurgists the same way Allomancers do (just stronger), which was the same way TLR controlled the Koloss, Kandra and Inquisitors. He knew that having a method of control meant Ruin would be able to use the same method if he was free:

Spoiler

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

Really, I think reading the annotations (free on the website - linked above) for the first trilogy would help you resolve most of your questions. 

PS: I don't know if you use ebooks or not, but one of my personal projects is editing my ebooks - and right now I am working on adding the annotations to some of them (similar to how the Warbreaker ebook already comes with the Warbreaker annotations as part of the file).  If you want to do similar or need help/advice, you can PM or use that linked thread about editing ebooks. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Treamayne
PS

[alder24]

1 hour ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

I read the part about Rashek and Hemalurgy. I know the Well granted him the instinctive knowledge that helps make constructs, but he did not know Hemalurgy was Ruin’s domain. If he did, he wouldn’t have created so many constructs and would’ve mentioned it to the people of Scadrial. 

Why would he mention it to the people? He didn't tell them anything about Ruin and Preservation and instead created a new religion with him as a god - telling people about Ruin would only undermine his position. And he did tell them on the plate in one of the caves how to control Koloss. He knew Hemalurgy was from Ruin, because of the way he created Kandra and set up the whole plan with Resolution. He also created all hemalurgic constructs with deadly flaws - Inquisitors with a linchpin, Koloss with rage so they would kill themselves, and Kandra with only 2 spikes, making them harder to control for Ruin (and the First Contract).

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

@Treamayne @Firesong

After your explanations of atium and divine future sight, I’ve came to a conclusion about Ruin’s precognition.

Firesong, and one of my Cosmere fan friends, said that the atium used in Era 1 is impure. In truth it’s an alloy of pure atium and electrum. And we all know how powerful that atium is. Looking at gold, we know that both Ruin and Preservation are great at looking into the past, or at least into past timelines/possibilities. When Vin burned gold, she saw two shadows of herself - one a lonely and depressed woman, and the other a trusting and outgoing woman. When she touched the shadows she felt as if she was both at once. Malatium, an alloy of gold and impure atium, when burned by Vin saw much further into the past of other people. She saw two shadows of Rashek - a man with a fur coat who’s happy and content with life, and a very rich merchant. 

Duralumin and more beads of impure atium than anyone has swallowed before, when burned by Elend’s level of Allomancy, could see a lot. Elend saw a vision of the future. He saw a flash of knowledge, he saw a mind-numbing wealth of information. He saw that his own death would help save the world. And that’s what happened. However, that does not mean it would have happened for certain.

In terms of power, this isn’t even the peak of Metallic Arts precognition. Burning Elend-level duralumin with pure atium would’ve been superior to what Elend saw with a lesser version. And who knows what pure atium by itself could do? What would his own future would like when burning duralumin with electrum? We haven’t seen the peak of Metallic Arts retrocognition. What would we see of the past by burning Elend-level duralumin with gold or malatium? Could we vividly see visions of the past, or even read one’s memories? What can we do with other alloys of impure or pure atium?

In terms of perception… it’s weird. Atium is definite but the rest show possibilities. At least on a mortal level of magic, cognition, and speed. A person burning atium saw all possible attacks a person could execute. But Vin could somehow, likely because she was the Child of Preservation (not talking about his future sight), could trick atium. Electrum shows possibilities of what could happen in the burner’s own future. Vin and Rashek could’ve become the people their shadows represented, if circumstances were different. But that didn’t happen. Elend was in a moment of desperation in which he assumed his death could save the world, but it was not guaranteed to save the world. Vin could’ve given up hope completely. 

In terms of power, we have to look at these powers on the level of Ruin and Preservation. Even the greatest applications of Allomancy or Feruchemy, in the forms of Rashek and Mist Vin, are buckets of water in the ocean of their gods. Everyone with lesser power is a drop of water. Mist Vin destroyed Kredik Shaw with a Steelpush. Big whoop. Ruin and Preservation can move an Earth data-like planet millions of kilometers across space, move the entire crust, rise and flatten mountains. They can probably move planets with physical force. They can influence emotions and control their constructs. Duralumin enhances Allomancy and Preservation’s beads amplify it to the highest viable level. Preservation is the God of Allomancy and can fuel Feruchemy. I imagine Ruin can fuel Hemalurgy and Feruchemy more directly, or manipulate souls with divine intervention. They can move planets at FTL speeds, and perceive time and process stimuli and scientific information on a completely different timescale. Far above any zinc, steel or tin Feruchemy.

So what level of power would they get from retrocognition or precognition? Well, I imagine they could see the past or memories of people. But what about the future? Well, as Treamayne said, they would be seeing many possibilities. Millions, billions, infinite number of possibilities. We don’t even see Ruin’s PoV, and atium mucking doesn’t exactly work as some people have described. Nothing says he didn’t see Elend’s vision of the future. However, that would be among a countless amount of visions that Ruin would be experiencing and investigating. Elend’s vision just happened to be the one that came true.

I don’t think Ruin’s precog was blocked by Elend or the others burning atium. I don’t think he didn’t see the possibility at all. But, I do think he saw countless visions of Elend’s future. Either because that naturally happens with gods, or because Elend burned top-level atium. The way I see it the Emperor was just lucky his came true.

Edited July 15, 2023 by AllomanticChainDude

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

When Vin burned gold, she saw two shadows of herself - one a lonely and depressed woman, and the other a trusting and outgoing woman. When she touched the shadows she felt as if she was both at once. Malatium, an alloy of gold and impure atium, when burned by Vin saw much further into the past of other people. She saw two shadows of Rashek - a man with a fur coat who’s happy and content with life, and a very rich merchant. 

Correction - Gold only shows a Single shadow. I explained this (and why it is commonly misconstrued) in this post

6 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Duralumin and more beads of impure atium than anyone has swallowed before, when burned by Elend’s level of Allomancy, could see a lot. Elend saw a vision of the future. He saw a flash of knowledge, he saw a mind-numbing wealth of information. He saw that his own death would help save the world. And that’s what happened. However, that does not mean it would have happened for certain.

Brandon has said that what Elend experienced is closer to what Pure Atium would accomplish. Specifically, it's a small peak at the Spiritual Realm

Spoiler

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

6 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Atium is definite but the rest show possibilities.

.(Era 1) Atium isn't so much "definite" as that the shadow is such a short time that it's, like 95% accurate. Vin showed in WoA that it can be wrong. . .

6 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

I don’t think Ruin’s precog was blocked by Elend or the others burning atium. I don’t think he didn’t see the possibility at all. But, I do think he saw countless visions of Elend’s future. Either because that naturally happens with gods, or because Elend burned top-level atium. The way I see it the Emperor was just lucky his came true.

Don't forget that part of Eend's experience was to realize Vin had ascended and to factor in what he knew of his Wife and how she would react to his death. It certainly wasn't a 100% guarantee, but was one of the more likely futures at the point he experienced the vision. Again, this gets more detail in Secret History.

Overall - great analysis. Thank you.

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Looking at gold, we know that both Ruin and Preservation are great at looking into the past, or at least into past timelines/possibilities. 

A-gold has nothing to do with Shards being good with looking into the past.

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

What would his own future would like when burning duralumin with electrum?

That would look very similar to what Elend did

Spoiler

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

What would we see of the past by burning Elend-level duralumin with gold or malatium?

Well, SH:

Spoiler

I think that's what Kelsier saw when flashing Malatium in the moment of his death. This vision of the past would be granted normally to somebody burning gold or Malatium with duralumin, for Kel it worked on the same scale because he died in the same moment, which allowed him to peer into SR.

 

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Could we vividly see visions of the past, or even read one’s memories?

Visions yes, memories I don't think so.

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

But Vin could somehow, likely because she was the Child of Preservation (not talking about his future sight), could trick atium.

No, she was smart, and found a flaw. Instead of reacting to Zane, she reacted to her Atium-shadow Zane saw - so she reacted to her future.

8 hours ago, AllomanticChainDude said:

Preservation is the God of Allomancy and can fuel Feruchemy. I imagine Ruin can fuel Hemalurgy and Feruchemy more directly, or manipulate souls with divine intervention.

They both can fuel all 3 metallic arts directly if they wanted:

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

“Ruin would never consider that Preservation could destroy (regardless of the Vessel) since he "knew" it was counter to the Shard's intent. That the piece of information that Preservation discovered over 2000yrs ago; the data that Preservation crafted the grand game to obscure (because if Ruin ever questioned the validy of this false assumption - the whole plan would fail).”

 

@Treamayne After thinking about  the many schemes we saw from Preservation, I think your conclusion was spot on. I definitely think a big part of Preservation’s vagueness was to divert Ruin’s attention from the details that would reveal his ultimate goal. I also think he was actively manipulated events as time went on, and had many Xanatos Gambits in place. If not Xanatos Gambits, then regular gambits or Xanatos Speed Chess

Is “2000 yrs ago” a length of time that will be explained as I go through Mistborn, or is it something you came up with?

Edited September 9, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Is “2000 yrs ago” a length of time that will be explained as I go through Mistborn, or is it something you came up with?

It is the minimal length of time that these events played out. The Well "fills" every 1024 Scadrian years, and that happened at-least-twice:

1. Once for Alendi to hear the pulses, travel to the well, get killed by Rashek and for Rashek to become The Lord Ruler
2. Second for The Lord Ruler's reign, Vin to be manipulated into killing Rashek and releasing Ruin
3. It is unknown if there were more "cycles" before the one that Rashek claimed the power at the Well.

WoB:

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

Why did the Well of Ascension refill every thousand years rather than 500 or 200, etc.?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's actually every 1024 years. The Lord Ruler just befuddled the information a bit.

The timing has to do with powers of two (Pairs - push/pull, internal/external, etc.), and is specifically 2^10.