Question about the Cosmere as it relates to SA

[navybrandt]

I have just a basic understanding of the Cosmere (though I guess that's true of most of us until BS writes more books), but I'm confused about the whole shard/splinter/spren thing.  (I'm talking about the shards of Adonalsium here - not shard blades or plate).

 

If I'm not mistaken, I read/heard somewhere that the spren are splinters of Honor, who has died.  It was his death that caused him to splinter.  I realize it was just Honor's holder that died, but didn't the shard itself splinter into smaller pieces?  But what about the Stormfather?  He is also called a splinter of Honor and the Windspren are his children. So, are the Windspren splinters of a splinter?

 

Next, the Nightwatcher is of Cultivation. So, has cultivation died/splintered too and Nightwatcher is one of her splinters? Or is Nightwatcher actually Cultivation as a whole?

 

Wyndle (Lift's spren) talks about his Mother, so is he actually of Cultivation/Nightwatcher?  If so, are some of the Knights Radiant of Cultivation instead of Honor?  Also, how can Cultivation have Splinters (Spren) if she hasn't died/splintered?

 

Finally, aren't the evil spren of Odium?  How can he have splinters if he hasn't died/splintered?  Also, does he have a "super spren" like Honor's Stormfather and Cultivation's Nightwatcher?

[Moogle]

1. If I'm not mistaken, I read/heard somewhere that the spren are splinters of Honor, who has died.  It was his death that caused him to splinter.  I realize it was just Honor's holder that died, but didn't the shard itself splinter into smaller pieces?  But what about the Stormfather?  He is also called a splinter of Honor and the Windspren are his children. So, are the Windspren splinters of a splinter?

 

2. Next, the Nightwatcher is of Cultivation. So, has cultivation died/splintered too and Nightwatcher is one of her splinters? Or is Nightwatcher actually Cultivation as a whole?

 

3. Wyndle (Lift's spren) talks about his Mother, so is he actually of Cultivation/Nightwatcher?  If so, are some of the Knights Radiant of Cultivation instead of Honor?  Also, how can Cultivation have Splinters (Spren) if she hasn't died/splintered?

 

4. Finally, aren't the evil spren of Odium?  How can he have splinters if he hasn't died/splintered?  Also, does he have a "super spren" like Honor's Stormfather and Cultivation's Nightwatcher?

 

Numbered for ease of response:

 

1. The Stormfather may or may not be a Splinter of Honor. The Parshendi had legends saying the Stormfather (Rider of Storms to be precise) was around pre-humanity, and it seems likely that humanity came with Honor and Cultivation. The Stormfather may have originally been a Splinter of Adonalsium, though it's also possible Honor gave him some extra juice when the Stormfather morphed into being Honor's spren over time.

 

Honorspren/windspren are likely not direct Splinters of the Stormfather. However, the Stormfather is sort of Honor (or the memory of him), so he is sort of the being that honorspren came from, so I can see why the honorspren would call him their father. Honorspren probably also have a bit of Cultivation in them which further confuses matters. We don't know here for sure!

 

2. Unknown. There's a clear connections between the Nightwatcher and Cultivation, and there's actually a direct WoB (which I don't trust) that says the Nightwatcher is not to Cultivation what the Stormfather is to Honor.

 

3. Most of the spren of the KR were part Honor/part Cultivation, though different ratios of each. Surgebinding itself seems to be a combined H+C system, like Feruchemy is R+P. Wyndle seems to be mostly Cultivation (he's green!) but he probably has a bit of Honor in him.

 

Shards can voluntarily create Splinters of themselves. No killing necessary! Endowment does it all the time on Nalthis when she (he?) creates Returned.

 

4. Odium has the Unmade, which Taravangian refers to as "ancient evil spren", though it seems more likely that the Unmade are more like the Heralds. They cause the Thrill and the Death Rattles in any case, so they may very well be "superspren".

[WeiryWriter]

A minor note:

 

1. the "Stormfather predating humanity" thing Moogle mentions is by no means definite, I certainly don't read the quote that way. (granted I have a "complicated" relationship with the Stormfather but that is beside the point for this.

 

The quote (I believe Moogle refers to is this (correct me if I'm wrong though):

 

 

This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather—and he was not one of her people’s gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor—a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners

 

To me this does not imply he pre-existed humanity at all..

[RShara]

Actually, the WoB just says that the Nightwatcher is not Cultivation.  It doesn't say whether she's a spren of Cultivation.

 

Q:  Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?
A:  The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

[navybrandt]

Oh, I though a splinter was a piece of a dead shard, but now that I realize it's not, things make a lot more sense.

 

It'll be interesting to find out where the spren came from then.

 

Finally, can you send me to a reference to the Unmade. I don't remember reading about them anywhere.

 

Thanks.

[Moogle]

Finally, can you send me to a reference to the Unmade. I don't remember reading about them anywhere.

 

Here's a quick list of quotes.

 

From Way of Kings:

“Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.”

—The Unmade were obviously fabrications of folklore. Curiously, most were not considered individuals, but instead cations of kinds of destruction. This quote is from Traxil, line 33, considered a primary source, though I doubt its authenticity.

(There are other references to things with names like Yelig-nar in the epigraphs of TWoK. See here for list.)

 

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In Words of Radiance, Eshonai drops this bomb on us:

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

 

Eshonai is talking to her mother about the dangers of stormform when she says this.

 

After turning into stormform, Eshonai basically says that the Unmade are looking upon her. The Unmade are clearly the gods of the Parshendi.

The new rhythms thrummed in her skull, though she stayed away from the Rhythm of Peace, with its strange screams. There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her.

 

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Taravangian and the Diagram have a lot to say on the matter.

The Unmade are a deviation, a flair, a conundrum that may not be worth your time. You cannot help but think of them. They are fascinating. Many are mindless. Like the spren of human emotions, only much more nasty. I do believe a few can think, however.

—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 14

 

There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship.

—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 15

 

“Dova reports that the number of Death Rattles we’re finding has dropped even further. She didn’t find a single one yesterday, and only two the day before.”

“Moelach moves, then,” Taravangian said . “It is certain now. The creature must have been drawn by something westward.”

...

“I agree ,” she said. “It gives us a further reference point. The Thrill is at least as strong here as it is in Alethkar. Maybe stronger. I will speak to our scholars. Perhaps this will help pinpoint Nergaoul.”

“Do not spend too much effort on that,” Taravangian said, approaching another group of Veden soldiers. “I’m not sure what we would even do if we found the thing.” An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. Not yet at least. “I would rather know where Moelach is moving.” Hopefully, Moelach hadn’t decided to slumber again. The Death Rattles had, so far, offered them the best way that they’d found to augment the Diagram.

 

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Rlain talks about the gods of the Parshendi:

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

"Gave of themselves" is a rather clear nod to their name, the "Unmade".

 

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Those are the best ones I have. I've also made a list of all known references to possible Unmade here.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Moogle

[navybrandt]

Thanks!

[Shardlet]

Oh, I though a splinter was a piece of a dead shard, but now that I realize it's not, things make a lot more sense.

 

It'll be interesting to find out where the spren came from then.

 

Finally, can you send me to a reference to the Unmade. I don't remember reading about them anywhere.

 

Thanks.

 

Splinters can be pieces of dead shards.  Although, I don't see any reason so far why a shard would splinter simply because the shardholder was dead.  As far as I understand it, the three splintered shards that we know of (Honor, Dominion, and Devotion) were splintered as a result of direct actions by Odium.  Mistborn spoilers:

In the case of Preservation, the indication I got was not that the shard would have been shattered because Leras (preservation's holder) died but rather the shard would have been a substantial quantity of power which lacked a guiding consciousness.  This would have resulted in bad stuff for Scadrial.  My personal take on it is that the shard would have acted strictly according to it's guiding intent thus establishing some kind of stasis.

[Arondell]

Nohadon also briefly mentions Yelig-nar in one of Dalinar's visions.

 

 

All of my wordsmen were slaughtered when Yelignar broke into the chancery.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 852). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

So it looks like we might be seeing at least one of these Parshendi gods showing up in person in upcoming books.