Elantrian Computer Program

[Trusk'our]

I was reading Elantris again this week, and something interesting came to mind as I was doing so;

Elantrians can use their hands to draw the symbols of AonDor, but they can also use tools such as wands (sticks), dust, metal wires, or stone carvings.

What if an Elantrian could make use of a computer to quickly type up AonDor symbols in a form modified for the computer's programming (modifying AonDor symbols is possible. WoB)?

They could perhaps type up AonDor code into their computer and save it for later use, making a library of more complex effects possible on demand.

Perhaps they could run a simulation on their computer that determined what the Aon did before it was activated, allowing them to fix any errors before they went off and tried to polymorph their friend.

Any other ideas for what AonDor computers might allow for Elantrians?

[The Bookwyrm]

I think it all comes down to some Intent and Command shenanigans, and simply typing the Aon on a computer, even with Intent, might not satisfy the Command...?

That's my thought. Because it seems to shortcut-y.

But theoretically possible. This is really a Brandon question more than anything.

If the Aon did have to be physically drawn, would printing it work, I wonder...

[Trusk'our]

10 minutes ago, The Bookwyrm said:

If the Aon did have to be physically drawn, would printing it work, I wonder...

Hadn't thought of that, but I think it would work, considering that Elantrians can use blacksmithing or stone carving to make AonDor work- the Intent and the shape of the Aons is what would count, I believe.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

AonDor Macros for the "real world"!

I can absolutely see that being a future application. Makes me wonder about the stuff in Tress now

[Trusk'our]

4 minutes ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

AonDor Macros for the "real world"!

I can absolutely see that being a future application. Makes me wonder about the stuff in Tress now

ToES spoilers:

Spoiler

Well, we did see that the Sorceress had a laptop... 

 

[Duxredux]

At the very least, printing out Aon templates to trace would vastly improve most Elantrians' abilities to draw the more complicated Aons. They already have theory books, but here you can more readily mass produce them or make Aons with previously calculated measurements. And here's the "Aon Shao so everybody looks like Galladon" template or "everyone looks like a Scadrian as extrapolated from your face".

My initial thought was wondering at what point the necessary intent would trigger for the Aon to go active. For example, if Raoden were to draw the chasm line on any of the Aons in the theory books he found, would they have gone active, or would he need to have the Intent to channel the Dor for the entire character and thus need to retrace the whole thing? I'm guessing the latter, even if Raoden himself had written the book. The Aon glows from the very first stroke, and fails if even the first stroke is incorrect. This might mean that the correct Intent must be utilized during the entire coding process, and that each Aon must be typed as active to make it run in the end. It looked like from the WoB, even object-oriented programming is possible, but an Elantrian would have to write the code themselves, not just run it through the compiler.

Let's start by assuming that this is possible, what would need to be ironed out to make it usable? If keeping an active Aon in standby in a program is possible, there would probably be syntax foundational to basic Aon programming, like starting every single program with stipulations that the following Aons do not run unless an execute command is given. Depending on how removed the Elantrian can be from creating a functional Aon - and might need to be typed with the correct Intent for the program to run - then even the characters as displayed on a monitor might be considered valid Aons. Hence the need for safe syntax. What I don't know is how transferrable or savable this is - can the Aons be saved to a file which is closed or do they constantly require an actual visible presence on the screen? What portions of the Aons could be reused or called again, and which portions would either vanish or need to be retyped to renew the correct Intent to make them active again? With callable Aons, I'm guessing most of this will have workarounds to make most things repeatable and could make certain sections of code very routine. That said, as far as I know know, AonDor wasn't designed from the ground up to have nice and tidy syntax or to be nice and user-friendly for the Elantrian programmer. There could be really obnoxious hoops to jump through to get it to work, but if it's possible at all the complexity will just determine if we're talking similar to Python or Java in terms of difficulty and user friendliness or if we're talking C++ or Haskell.

As for a simulation, I'd guess that even Earth computers could run simulations on what an Aon would theoretically do if we had sufficient information to define what each did and how they interact. If we can do it with non-Invested tech, they should be able to.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Duxredux
clarity

[Argenti]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:40 PM, Trusk'our said:

They could perhaps type up AonDor code into their computer and save it for later use, making a library of more complex effects possible on demand.

 

In effect, that's what the Elatrains did already, I remember seeing a WOB somewhere about how the symbols they use now is a form of shorthand for much longer code, making a new programing language.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

 

On 5/22/2023 at 2:10 PM, Duxredux said:

My initial thought was wondering at what point the necessary intent would trigger for the Aon to go active. For example, if Raoden were to draw the chasm line on any of the Aons in the theory books he found, would they have gone active, or would he need to have the Intent to channel the Dor for the entire character and thus need to retrace the whole thing? I'm guessing the latter, even if Raoden himself had written the book. The Aon glows from the very first stroke, and fails if even the first stroke is incorrect. This might mean that the correct Intent must be utilized during the entire coding process, and that each Aon must be typed as active to make it run in the end. It looked like from the WoB, even object-oriented programming is possible, but an Elantrian would have to write the code themselves, not just run it through the compiler.

My understanding of it is that so long as he Intends to activate the Aon, all he would need to do is draw the chasm line and that should set the Aon off. That is, after all, what he did with the massive Aon Rao that is Elantris and its surrounding cities, and that worked just fine. So long as an Elantrian "flips the switch", any Aon drawn can channel the Dor. If you personally drew an Aon perfectly in pencil on paper and handed it to an Elantrian, they could just add the chasm line (in any way, be it in pencil, by cutting a slit into the paper, or by drawing a glowing line on it with their hand, or any other number of ways) and it would activate the Aon. Intent matters only in the end. That would be a really good way to utilize Aons, actually, drawing it on a piece of paper and finishing it with a hand-drawn glowing line on it so it does whatever it does, and then the line vanishes and you're left with a nearly complete Aon once again. It would be really useful since you wouldn't have to draw the Aon from scratch every time. Unless channeling the Dor uses up whatever Aon you use, regardless of medium, but given that walls and such in Elantris were engraved with Aon Ashe and remained lit 24/7, that probably isn't the case.

 

[alder24]

43 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

My understanding of it is that so long as he Intends to activate the Aon, all he would need to do is draw the chasm line and that should set the Aon off. That is, after all, what he did with the massive Aon Rao that is Elantris and its surrounding cities, and that worked just fine. So long as an Elantrian "flips the switch", any Aon drawn can channel the Dor. If you personally drew an Aon perfectly in pencil on paper and handed it to an Elantrian, they could just add the chasm line (in any way, be it in pencil, by cutting a slit into the paper, or by drawing a glowing line on it with their hand, or any other number of ways) and it would activate the Aon. Intent matters only in the end. That would be a really good way to utilize Aons, actually, drawing it on a piece of paper and finishing it with a hand-drawn glowing line on it so it does whatever it does, and then the line vanishes and you're left with a nearly complete Aon once again. It would be really useful since you wouldn't have to draw the Aon from scratch every time. Unless channeling the Dor uses up whatever Aon you use, regardless of medium, but given that walls and such in Elantris were engraved with Aon Ashe and remained lit 24/7, that probably isn't the case.

No no no no no. Intent matters at the beginning. You need to intend to draw an Aon to even draw it. Aons appear as a line of lights, as soon as you start drawing them. Whole Aon needs to be drawn by Elantrian, not just the end. The chasm line isn't "the switch", it's just another part of an Aon, which can be added to all Aons composing the Aon you're drawing. To be clear, I’m opposing the idea that the chasm line is like a switch.

Spoiler

linkhyrule5

Why is there only one Chasm line per Aon? Since each Aon is made up of repetitions of Aon Aon, shouldn't there be a Chasm line per repetition?

Brandon Sanderson

The Aons aren't JUST made up of repetitions of Aon Aon. There's a lot more to them than that. Some follow a repetition pattern, others do not. The only requirement is using the initial Aon once, then building from there. Because of this, I made the new requirement be only one use of the chasm line.

Aons can actually have multiple forms and still work. For example, if you drew the chasm line on each one of those Aons, they'd work fine. (Maybe even better, in some cases.) What is happening in the books is that the Aons are ALMOST functional, and the Dor is straining to come through them. The chasm line brings them the one step further they need to be functional. However, further tweaking could make them more efficient.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 17, 2013)

 

That being said, you likely could outsource drawing of Aons, whole Aons. And there is a WoB confirming that Aons can be "switched'' like you said and turned on by Elantrian. 

Spoiler

Questioner

You recently compared the Aon Dor to a programming language of some sorts. Could you actually go one step further and build something like a curcuit board?

Brandon Sanderson

The difficultiy with all of that is that you have got to remember that the magic as they understand it right now only works based on Elantrian intention and activation. There were basically these sorts of things, but the switch has to be flipped by an Elantrian. Those things existed in Elantris.

Questioner

It's just that I think that Elantris itself could be some sort of a really big circuit board.

Brandon Sanderson

That may be a little too far for what Elantris is, but there are places in Elantris which are just what you are describing.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

So "computers" made out of Aons already exist in Elantris with a switch for Elandtrians to turn it on and off. The question however remains, do all Aons in such drawing/circuit need to be drawn by Elantrains or anybody can do that and Elantrain needs to only touch it with intention to activate that Aon?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

No no no no no. Intent matters at the beginning. You need to intend to draw an Aon to even draw it. Aons appear as a line of lights, as soon as you start drawing them. Whole Aon needs to be drawn by Elantrian, not just the end. The chasm line isn't "the switch", it's just another part of an Aon, which can be added to all Aons composing the Aon you're drawing. To be clear, I’m opposing the idea that the chasm line is like a switch.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the chasm line, you can just draw any incomplete Aon, then finish it and cause it to take effect, no? I get what you're saying, but given the second WoB, it makes it sound like an Elantrian could just grab a picture of an Aon, 'activate' it in some way, and have it work just fine.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That being said, you likely could outsource drawing of Aons, whole Aons. And there is a WoB confirming that Aons can be "switched'' like you said and turned on by Elantrian. 

That was the basis for my answer, but I just can't think of how else an Elantrian could activate an Aon.

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

So "computers" made out of Aons already exist in Elantris with a switch for Elandtrians to turn it on and off. The question however remains, do all Aons in such drawing/circuit need to be drawn by Elantrains or anybody can do that and Elantrain needs to only touch it with intention to activate that Aon?

Anybody can draw it, based on the WoBs, I'm just unsure if touching it with Intention will be enough to activate it. That's why I specified having the Aon be incomplete by just a single crucial line, which the Elantrian can finish to activate it.

What are you sourcing the "Intent from the beginning" requirement, by the way? I mean Aons that are physically written down by pencil and such, not the floating lines of light. 

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Anybody can draw it, based on the WoBs, I'm just unsure if touching it with Intention will be enough to activate it. That's why I specified having the Aon be incomplete by just a single crucial line, which the Elantrian can finish to activate it.

I'm not in the discussion, but I just want to note that if a line is missing - the aon fails and disappears (just like a mis-written line). Elantris Ch 7:

Spoiler

 This was Aon Ashe, the ancient symbol for light. The character brightened momentarily, seeming to pulse with life; then it flashed weakly like a man heaving his last breath. The Aon disappeared, its light fading from brightness, to dimness, to nothing.

“You’re much better at that than I am, sule,” Galladon said. “I usually make one line a little too big, or slant it a bit too much, and the whole thing fades away before I’m done.”

That was the whole point during the book - the Aons were incomplete, so they flashed and disappeared without effect (just like making a mistake). So you can;t just "leave a line out and finish it later" because and incomplete Aon will disappear after a few moments if you are not "still drawing."

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

Just now, Treamayne said:

I'm not in the discussion, but I just want to note that if a line is missing - the aon fails and disappears (just like a mis-written line). Elantris Ch 7:

  Reveal hidden contents

 This was Aon Ashe, the ancient symbol for light. The character brightened momentarily, seeming to pulse with life; then it flashed weakly like a man heaving his last breath. The Aon disappeared, its light fading from brightness, to dimness, to nothing.

“You’re much better at that than I am, sule,” Galladon said. “I usually make one line a little too big, or slant it a bit too much, and the whole thing fades away before I’m done.”

That was the whole point during the book - the Aons were incomplete, so they flashed and disappeared without effect (just like making a mistake). So you can;t just "leave a line out and finish it later" because and incomplete Aon will disappear after a few moments if you are not "still drawing."

I mean if the Aon was drawn out on paper, then maybe completed with one of the glowing lines so you could re-use the drawing.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I get what you're saying, but given the second WoB, it makes it sound like an Elantrian could just grab a picture of an Aon, 'activate' it in some way, and have it work just fine.

That was the basis for my answer, but I just can't think of how else an Elantrian could activate an Aon.

Anybody can draw it, based on the WoBs, I'm just unsure if touching it with Intention will be enough to activate it. That's why I specified having the Aon be incomplete by just a single crucial line, which the Elantrian can finish to activate it.

I believe Elantrian simply touching Aons with the intent to activate it will work. Otherwise those "switchable" Aons that are already built in Elantris wouldn't make sense.

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

What are you sourcing the "Intent from the beginning" requirement, by the way? I mean Aons that are physically written down by pencil and such, not the floating lines of light. 

With this I was referring to the Elantris book, when Raoden needed to have an intent to draw Aons for lines to appear. Without them lines wouldn't appear. But that was in the air. On the ground/paper etc, it doesn't need to work like that, as WoB stated.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

I believe Elantrian simply touching Aons with the intent to activate it will work. Otherwise those "switchable" Aons that are already built in Elantris wouldn't make sense.

With this I was referring to the Elantris book, when Raoden needed to have an intent to draw Aons for lines to appear. Without them lines wouldn't appear. But that was in the air. On the ground/paper etc, it doesn't need to work like that, as WoB stated.

Those are the ones I'm talking about, since they present you with a much easier way of not only correctable and editable, but reusable Aons

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Those are the ones I'm talking about, since they present you with a much easier way of not only correctable and editable, but reusable Aons

I believe not every Aon can be reused, some will consume themself. I think there was a WoB on that, but I can't find it.

But I've found the WoB that Aons need to be drawn by Elantrians to begin with, they can't outsource it to non-Elantrians:

Spoiler

DrogaKrolow

OK, I’ve got a question about AonDor.

Brandon Sanderson

Ok.

DrogaKrolow

So it's a lot like functional programing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

And my question is: could you write a higher-level language of programming with that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

Oh...

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm. But. Only an Elantrian could make it, like, work, right? Not compile but could execute the function. They would have to type it out and execute it. Like if you were just-- Even if you just gave it to them, they would have to retype it and go. But yes, you could.

DrogaKrolow

Couldn't you like-- Is there an Aon for define, definition? So like you could go and define some really long sequence of Aons and then assign it to a simple shape.

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

DrogaKrolow

Then draw the symbol, and would it work?

Brandon Sanderson

Right right, object-oriented. This is realistically plausible, you would have to write all this stuff and call the function and have this constantly in a state of kinetic Investiture. But that is reasonable. I mean it's not so far off from things they actually did with much fewer-- much fewer lines of code, if you wish, in the past. It's what Elantris itself was.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I believe not every Aon can be reused, some will consume themself. I think there was a WoB on that, but I can't find it.

So long as it holds true for the majority, the idea is viable.

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But I've found the WoB that Aons need to be drawn by Elantrians to begin with, they can't outsource it to non-Elantrians:

  Hide contents

DrogaKrolow

OK, I’ve got a question about AonDor.

Brandon Sanderson

Ok.

DrogaKrolow

So it's a lot like functional programing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

And my question is: could you write a higher-level language of programming with that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

Oh...

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm. But. Only an Elantrian could make it, like, work, right? Not compile but could execute the function. They would have to type it out and execute it. Like if you were just-- Even if you just gave it to them, they would have to retype it and go. But yes, you could.

DrogaKrolow

Couldn't you like-- Is there an Aon for define, definition? So like you could go and define some really long sequence of Aons and then assign it to a simple shape.

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

DrogaKrolow

Then draw the symbol, and would it work?

Brandon Sanderson

Right right, object-oriented. This is realistically plausible, you would have to write all this stuff and call the function and have this constantly in a state of kinetic Investiture. But that is reasonable. I mean it's not so far off from things they actually did with much fewer-- much fewer lines of code, if you wish, in the past. It's what Elantris itself was.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

 

Doesn't that conflict with the WoB above, where Brandon says it depends on Elantrian Intent and activation? I'm definitely missing something here. They seem conflicting to me, but they were said within a week of each other, so I doubt he went back and changed anything.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So long as it holds true for the majority, the idea is viable.

Doesn't that conflict with the WoB above, where Brandon says it depends on Elantrian Intent and activation? I'm definitely missing something here. They seem conflicting to me, but they were said within a week of each other, so I doubt he went back and changed anything.

No if those "switchable" Aons in the city of Elantris were written by Elantrians themself, which is the case. This might allow other Elantrians to turn them on and off, but they need to be written by some Elantrian in the first place.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No if those "switchable" Aons in the city of Elantris were written by Elantrians themself, which is the case. This might allow other Elantrians to turn them on and off, but they need to be written by some Elantrian in the first place.

Makes sense, I suppose. I'd been thinking of making a character that was basically a Selish Artifabrian who made and sold extremely complex toggleable Aonic Fabrials to the Elantrians who weren't obliged to do deep research into Aonic Fabrial creation, but there goes that idea. I suppose he could still sell blueprints or templates for Aons that do very specific things, kind of like what @Duxredux was saying.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Makes sense, I suppose. I'd been thinking of making a character that was basically a Selish Artifabrian who made and sold extremely complex toggleable Aonic Fabrials to the Elantrians who weren't obliged to do deep research into Aonic Fabrial creation, but there goes that idea. I suppose he could still sell blueprints or templates for Aons that do very specific things, kind of like what @Duxredux was saying.

You can still do it, Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Awaken type 4 object, spike him with 2 spikes giving him connection to the land and transformation into Elantrian, and give him the Command to draw Aons on any given order and turn them on/off. Theoretically of course  You would need a loooooot of investiture for any of those things to overcome "investiture resist investiture".

 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 6/1/2023 at 1:27 PM, alder24 said:

You can still do it, Cosmere spoilers:

  Hide contents

Awaken type 4 object, spike him with 2 spikes giving him connection to the land and transformation into Elantrian, and give him the Command to draw Aons on any given order and turn them on/off. Theoretically of course  You would need a loooooot of investiture for any of those things to overcome "investiture resist investiture".

 

Why do it that way, when you can simply get an elantrian to draw you a program that allows this pen to draw aons. Then use that pen to make the programs and sell them back.

[Treamayne]

On 6/1/2023 at 0:47 PM, alder24 said:

I believe Elantrian simply touching Aons with the intent to activate it will work. Otherwise those "switchable" Aons that are already built in Elantris wouldn't make sense.

Again, just an outside aside. Raodon goes on and on about Aon Modifiers (presumed to be foreshadowing for Roial's fate and the healing modifiers) so I would bet that you have to use Aon Modifiers to have a physically represented Aon act as a switch (which is probably why all of the Aon Tia plates only led to one destination each - modifiers for distance and direction of travel and modifiers to make it a switch plate).

On 6/1/2023 at 4:18 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'd been thinking of making a character that was basically a Selish Artifabrian who made and sold extremely complex toggleable Aonic Fabrials to the Elantrians who weren't obliged to do deep research into Aonic Fabrial creation,

What about a Gallodon inspired character with a family member that is an Elantrian - your character designs the Aon Fabrials, the family member makes them. Rithmatist spoilers:

Spoiler

Like Joel and Melody in the last chapter; one with the knowledge and skill, but lacking ability - the other with the ability, but lacking knowledge and skill.

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Why do it that way, when you can simply get an elantrian to draw you a program that allows this pen to draw aons. Then use that pen to make the programs and sell them back.

Nah, that's too easy.

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

What about a Gallodon inspired character with a family member that is an Elantrian - your character designs the Aon Fabrials, the family member makes them. Rithmatist spoilers:

  Hide contents

Like Joel and Melody in the last chapter; one with the knowledge and skill, but lacking ability - the other with the ability, but lacking knowledge and skill.

 

Yeees, I love that duo in Rithmatist. That's a cool concept that works well with Aons.

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Nah, that's too easy.

Yeees, I love that duo in Rithmatist. That's a cool concept that works well with Aons.

Have you been in that forum lately? I posted a new theory a month or so back when I did a reread. . .

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Have you been in that forum lately? I posted a new theory a month or so back when I did a reread. . .

I saw that! But I have to reread the book soon to dig into that forum.