Jump to content

Do Soothing and Rioting work on animals?


Necessary Eagle

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:
Spoiler

Kaladin and Syl also have their disagreements. Pattern lies to Shallan. Wyndle often complains when Lift wants him to do something. I feel like all of that is similar to the convincing it took to get Gallant to let Adolin ride him the first time he went to meet Eshonai. I don't see this as a meaningful difference from a Nahel bond, especially since from the description of the scene I quoted, Gallant couldn't see Adolin charging the Tashiqqi group; there was a hill in the way.

Well even if the Rhyshadium comparison is valid, perhaps it's more like the Passing of a Seon, where a Knight might be able to convince their spren that someone else needs that bond more.

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Nahel Bond fills the cracks in one soul with another soul - that's why it can't really be a Nahel Bond, as Gallant and Dalinar already have Nahel Bonds, which would get very messy if that was a Nahel Bond. Never did Adolin or Daliner "feel" their horse in the same way as Radiants feel their spren, they just have this mutual understanding of each other, conversations between them. There is a bond between them, yes, for sure, not Nahel Bond. Nahel Bond is too specific, too intimate. Galant maybe was able to feel Adolin being in distress, without seeing him, maybe in a similar way as Adolin was able to feel Maya anger during the trial.

Or he is a very smart animal, who heard a person running, recognized this person as Adolin, recognized a stress in his steps and came to the conclusion that Adolin is in distress, needing his help?

Nahel Bond mechanics might disallow a spren from bonding with multiple people, but a Ryshadium which doesn't form a Nahel Bond but a strong Connection, could have several Connections like this to multiple people. Radiant can't convince his spren that somebody else needs the bond, as that would require them to break the bond between them in the first place. Spren's soul is intermingled with their Knight's soul.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Everything has a cognitive aspect. But by the Underwater_Worldhopper's logic, the cognitive aspect of a baby/animal develops during their lifetime. There is no problem with that. If the Stick can have a cognitive aspect, a baby would have no problem with traveling into CR.

Angry because I typed up answers to so many different threads but then lost it all to a misclick.

Anyway, what I said here was that it would make sense for the CA to develop with age to reflect the increasing cognitive abilities and mental capacity of a child or animal.

Quote

I do agree that most mammals should be influenced by emotional allomancy, at least to a slight degree. Personally I've always imagined TLR arriving at the square, where Kelsier killed the Inquisitor, in a carriage without a driver, just by using very powerful emotional Allomancy on horses alone. That looks just so cool in my mind.

Never considered that, so new headcanon unlocked. It's not implausible, given that horses are indeed very smart and TLR was an Original Mistborn as well as a Brass/Zinc Savant. Side tangent: What if you used H-Copper on a horse (preferably from another horse so you don't make a Hemalurgic Construct) to both increase its cognizance (thereby making it more susceptible to EA) and also making it susceptible to Hemalurgic Control? Then you could puppeteer the horses, burning metals or not. A Soother/Rioter Hemalurgist should forget stealing powers and instead focus on making an army of animals that they can control without lifting a finger and which can spy for them.

Spoiler

 

Also, to throw my two cents into the Ryshadium bond conversation, I think it's totally possible that there's a Bond between a Ryshadium and its rider. Nothing to the extent of a Nahel bond, but not just a simple 'I only let this person ride me' kind of Bond either.

And Spren can bond more than one person, just not at the same time. Syl was bonded to a different Knight before the recreance; his death traumatised her and drove her to go into a coma-like state and then come back, which is why she's the only "Ancient Daughter" Honorspren that's not currently a dead-eye.

So spren can bond more than one person, the original Knight just has to die first, or the Spren needs to initiate a dissolving of the Oaths to unbind themselves from the Radiant (that last part isn't very well explained, by the Spren are implied to have a way to get out of the bond without becoming Deadeyes).

 

 

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:
Spoiler

Also, to throw my two cents into the Ryshadium bond conversation, I think it's totally possible that there's a Bond between a Ryshadium and its rider. Nothing to the extent of a Nahel bond, but not just a simple 'I only let this person ride me' kind of Bond either.

And Spren can bond more than one person, just not at the same time. Syl was bonded to a different Knight before the recreance; his death traumatised her and drove her to go into a coma-like state and then come back, which is why she's the only "Ancient Daughter" Honorspren that's not currently a dead-eye.

So spren can bond more than one person, the original Knight just has to die first, or the Spren needs to initiate a dissolving of the Oaths to unbind themselves from the Radiant (that last part isn't very well explained, by the Spren are implied to have a way to get out of the bond without becoming Deadeyes).

 

We're in a Mistborn forum, put that please in a spoiler box :)  SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, a spren can bond more than one person after their knight dies, but we're talking how many Nahel Bonds can spren have at the same time specifically.

 

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Angry because I typed up answers to so many different threads but then lost it all to a misclick.

I know that pain.

17 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Side tangent: What if you used H-Copper on a horse (preferably from another horse so you don't make a Hemalurgic Construct) to both increase its cognizance (thereby making it more susceptible to EA) and also making it susceptible to Hemalurgic Control? Then you could puppeteer the horses, burning metals or not. A Soother/Rioter Hemalurgist should forget stealing powers and instead focus on making an army of animals that they can control without lifting a finger and which can spy for them.

There is a possibility that every attribute spike creates a Hemalurgic construct, as we didn't see it working otherwise. In that case spiking a horse with a copper would change it, maybe even drastically. Hard to say. But to add more, just like in the case of Kandra's copper Blessing, adding more mental abilities to a person/animal would make it more resistant to Hemalurgic control, even if it makes a hole in a soul, it counteracts some of your control. Plus you wouldn't be able to fully control it with just one spike, likely more are needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We're in a Mistborn forum, put that please in a spoiler box :)  SA spoilers:

Darn it, I keep forgetting :')

Quote
  Hide contents

Yes, a spren can bond more than one person after their knight dies, but we're talking how many Nahel Bonds can spren have at the same time specifically.

Ah, that makes sense.

Quote

I know that pain.

There is a possibility that every attribute spike creates a Hemalurgic construct, as we didn't see it working otherwise.

We know that Humans at least can use spikes to gain powers without becoming a Construct, but those are powers and not attributes, so I suppose that does come into play. I think a very knowledgeable Hemalurgist could get around it though, with the right combination of Intent, Spiked Attribute and Spike Placement.

Quote

In that case spiking a horse with a copper would change it, maybe even drastically. Hard to say. But to add more, just like in the case of Kandra's copper Blessing, adding more mental abilities to a person/animal would make it more resistant to Hemalurgic control, even if it makes a hole in a soul, it counteracts some of your control. Plus you wouldn't be able to fully control it with just one spike, likely more are needed.

Good catch, forgot about that. That's H-Copper out the window then. But other spikes? Hemalurgic Control is more about holes in the Spirit than the Cognitive Aspect, weirdly, so I think you could still control them with a different Spike. And needing more than one spike is debatable, given that they're not THAT intelligent and not particularly Invested, but I had imagined using more than 1 spike when I came up with the idea anyway.

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Good catch, forgot about that. That's H-Copper out the window then. But other spikes? Hemalurgic Control is more about holes in the Spirit than the Cognitive Aspect, weirdly, so I think you could still control them with a different Spike. And needing more than one spike is debatable, given that they're not THAT intelligent and not particularly Invested, but I had imagined using more than 1 spike when I came up with the idea anyway.

It might be that because they're animals less spikes are needed for Hemalurgic control. But that's a wild assumption. I would just consider the regular rule of 4 spikes to gain control - and yes, just give them whatever spikes you want without anything mental and you can control them. Or create a new Hemalurgic construct that requires less than 4 spikes for control, like Kandra (easier said than done, Rashek couldn't do it in 1000 years).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

Nahel Bond fills the cracks in one soul with another soul - that's why it can't really be a Nahel Bond, as Gallant and Dalinar already have Nahel Bonds, which would get very messy if that was a Nahel Bond. Never did Adolin or Daliner "feel" their horse in the same way as Radiants feel their spren, they just have this mutual understanding of each other, conversations between them. There is a bond between them, yes, for sure, not Nahel Bond. Nahel Bond is too specific, too intimate. Galant maybe was able to feel Adolin being in distress, without seeing him, maybe in a similar way as Adolin was able to feel Maya anger during the trial.

Or he is a very smart animal, who heard a person running, recognized this person as Adolin, recognized a stress in his steps and came to the conclusion that Adolin is in distress, needing his help?

Nahel Bond mechanics might disallow a spren from bonding with multiple people, but a Ryshadium which doesn't form a Nahel Bond but a strong Connection, could have several Connections like this to multiple people. Radiant can't convince his spren that somebody else needs the bond, as that would require them to break the bond between them in the first place. Spren's soul is intermingled with their Knight's soul.

 

Spoiler

Perhaps I should have made it clear that I think it's more like the bond to Plate than to Blade, or perhaps more like Adolin and Maya's bond as you said. I think it probably is more intimate than a Seon bond, for instance, which is closer to a contract.

Also, does Dalinar ever ride Gallant after Gallant and Adolin start bonding after the death of Sureblood? Perhaps what started more like lending a Blade has ended with Dalinar basically abandoning his bond and Adolin forming a new one.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/21/2023 at 3:28 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think the difference lies in the Cognitive Aspect of the target. The WoB above says that it works by lapping at the edges of your Cogitive Aspect, so the target has to be cognizant enough to have a Cognitive Aspect substantial enough to be affected by the Allomancy.

21 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

My main wondering is because they wouldn’t have a cognitive aspect.

Considering that the Rosharan Shadesmar has the souls/CA of fish look like the CA of humans (unless that was an "unreliable narrator" moment and it was scuba divers) instead of the CA of items, I think it's pretty binary: living things have one type of CA, nonliving items have another type. Emotional allomancy isn't about finding the target, it's about being able to speak the target's emotional language (music is the language of emotion). I guess Alder mostly addressed that (and Worldhopper's sign language metaphor seemed pretty good), but maybe I'm just feeling more nit-picky because I'm tired and couldn't fall back asleep.

Edited by Jn819
spacing fix (easier on computer than mobile)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Jn819 said:
  Hide contents

Perhaps I should have made it clear that I think it's more like the bond to Plate than to Blade, or perhaps more like Adolin and Maya's bond as you said. I think it probably is more intimate than a Seon bond, for instance, which is closer to a contract.

Also, does Dalinar ever ride Gallant after Gallant and Adolin start bonding after the death of Sureblood? Perhaps what started more like lending a Blade has ended with Dalinar basically abandoning his bond and Adolin forming a new one.

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Bond to the Shardplate? Living one? That's multiple spren. I have no idea what kind of bond it is, but it is a result of the Nahel Bond between True Spren and their knight.

I don't think Dalinar rode Gallant after WoR. But I don't think their bond is broken. Gallant suffered because of Sureblood death, Adolin was there to comfort not only Gallant, but himself as well.

 

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Considering that the Rosharan Shadesmar has the souls/CA of fish look like the CA of humans (unless that was an "unreliable narrator" moment and it was scuba divers) instead of the CA of items, I think it's pretty binary: living things have one type of CA, nonliving items have another type.

Yes, I think every living creature has a human-like cognitive aspect, but maybe they aren't equal to adult human aspect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Considering that the Rosharan Shadesmar has the souls/CA of fish look like the CA of humans (unless that was an "unreliable narrator" moment and it was scuba divers) instead of the CA of items, I think it's pretty binary: living things have one type of CA, nonliving items have another type. Emotional allomancy isn't about finding the target, it's about being able to speak the target's emotional language (music is the language of emotion). I guess Alder mostly addressed that (and Worldhopper's sign language metaphor seemed pretty good), but maybe I'm just feeling more nit-picky because I'm tired and couldn't fall back asleep.

I don't think it's quite that binary. Yes, living beings' CAs show up as Silhouettes of light/Flames, but there is some variation and room for diversity. For example, in Secret History, Kelsier holds the soul of a deep sea creature (probably a whale, described as"Some kind of deep-sea creature, like a fish, only as large as a building") in his hand, even though he mentions its as big as a building. Humans show up as human sized, so the only reason I can imagine such a big creature wouldn't show up as its own size is because its CA is diminutive, reflecting its metal capacity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

Bond to the Shardplate? Living one? That's multiple spren. I have no idea what kind of bond it is, but it is a result of the Nahel Bond between True Spren and their knight.

I don't think Dalinar rode Gallant after WoR. But I don't think their bond is broken. Gallant suffered because of Sureblood death, Adolin was there to comfort not only Gallant, but himself as well.

Yes, I think every living creature has a human-like cognitive aspect, but maybe they aren't equal to adult human aspect.

Spoiler

I think I remember something about Dalinar saying he wouldn't be able to ride Gallant much and asking Adolin to take care of Gallant. I feel like that could be similar to the slim minority of divorces that are amicable and involve one spouse intentionally making room for a new partner. IDK though, seems like we'll have to RAFO.

Not equal yes, but not equal more like how different people like different music than not equal like how well someone with IQ of 140 does math compared to someone with IQ of 70. Again, people have made music that cats seem to like, though they don't react to most human music much. I think it would be difficult to learn to make the right zinc/brass pulses for a particular species, just like a growly heavy metal singer would probably struggle to learn to sing opera, but I think it could be done for just about any species. SA again:

Spoiler

Kinda like how Shallan struggles to understand how to make a stick want to be fire. She doesn't understand its "thoughts" well enough, even with Pattern translating for her.

 

45 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think it's quite that binary. Yes, living beings' CAs show up as Silhouettes of light/Flames, but there is some variation and room for diversity. For example, in Secret History, Kelsier holds the soul of a deep sea creature (probably a whale, described as"Some kind of deep-sea creature, like a fish, only as large as a building") in his hand, even though he mentions its as big as a building. Humans show up as human sized, so the only reason I can imagine such a big creature wouldn't show up as its own size is because its CA is diminutive, reflecting its metal capacity.

Fair point, I had forgotten that particular note. It's also possible that Scadrial's Shadesmar just doesn't compare to Roshar's Shadesmar.

Edited by Jn819
Additional reply
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

Not equal yes, but not equal more like how different people like different music than not equal like how well someone with IQ of 140 does math compared to someone with IQ of 70. Again, people have made music that cats seem to like, though they don't react to most human music much. I think it would be difficult to learn to make the right zinc/brass pulses for a particular species, just like a growly heavy metal singer would probably struggle to learn to sing opera, but I think it could be done for just about any species.

Something like that. I not that sold on the idea of right allomantic pulses, zinc affecting happiness sounds the same, but it can be heard by pulses which person is targeted, and animals might experienced emotions slightly different than humans, just a bit, both of those factors would change the pulse just a bit, fitting it for the animal. But that can't be the case, creating right pulses for a particular species isn't the way to do it, because the WoBs specifically said a certain level of sapiency is required, your method would allow Allomancer to target all animals.

32 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

SA again:

  Hide contents

Kinda like how Shallan struggles to understand how to make a stick want to be fire. She doesn't understand its "thoughts" well enough, even with Pattern translating for her.

 

SA:

Spoiler

A stick? A stick? That's THE Stick for you! :P 

And that's something different, Soulcasting isn't like emotional Allomancy, it's about "authority" and argumentation.

 

34 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

Fair point, I had forgotten that particular note. It's also possible that Scadrial's Shadesmar just doesn't compare to Roshar's Shadesmar.

Yes, I think that's the reason, On Scadrial people manifests as a mist figure, on Roshar:

Spoiler

as a flame.

Plus perception - deep sea creature would never be seen by people on Scadrial, and they wouldn't be subjected to people's perception, while SA:

Spoiler

regular fishes on Roshar would be, as they would be fished out by fishermen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/24/2023 at 9:01 PM, alder24 said:

SA:

  Hide contents

A stick? A stick? That's THE Stick for you! :P 

And that's something different, Soulcasting isn't like emotional Allomancy, it's about "authority" and argumentation.

SA:

Spoiler

It's not always about authority. It depends on the thing you're trying to soulcast. Stone requires coersion, while gas requires discipline.
 

Quote

"Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting."

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...