Type III Senses

[Oudeis]

The very first Command we see in the novel is, "Fetch Keys." Then, the straw men went into a room filled with objects many many times its own height, and came back in relatively short order with keys.

 

How did it know where keys were? Could it see? From where? Only the "face" area? How does this sense work? Would it work in the dark? Through walls? Could it be blocked? Could it be fooled by fake keys? How would it perceive a Lightweaving?

 

Or is it a sense unlike sight? Does the primarily-Spiritual Breath see in the Spiritual Realm and look for the spiritweb of "keys"?

 

Does anyone know of a part of the text, or annotations, or a WoB, on this subject? Any alternate theories out there?

[Araris Valerian]

I think that a large amount of the object's "senses" come from the perceptions and intentions of the awakener, who has to hold a clear image of the command in their head to get it to function. If the keys or whatever the target of the command was moved then the awakened object might then encounter issues and need some sensory input independent of the awakener, but I don't know if there is any way for it actually get said input.

[lyht]

Of course I am just guessing, but instead of the Spirit Realm, I imagine that the Cognitive Realm is involved. The keys know they are keys, and so the straw man just asks around, so to speak.

[Oudeis]

I think that a large amount of the object's "senses" come from the perceptions and intentions of the awakener, who has to hold a clear image of the command in their head to get it to function. If the keys or whatever the target of the command was moved then the awakened object might then encounter issues and need some sensory input independent of the awakener, but I don't know if there is any way for it actually get said input.

 

Vasher himself never saw the keys, or if he did they were on the man's belt when he left the room. Vasher had absolutely no way to know, apart from "through that door," where in the room the man was, or if he'd taken the keys off his belt and put them on a hook, or if they fell out when he died. He had no way to know what the room looked like, or if it was down a corridor rather than simply the other side of the wall. And still, the straw man didn't seem to have any problem. My initial conclusion is that the straw man must have SOME capacity to perceive the world in order to accomplish the Command, though I'm eager to hear any other alternate theories. However, it's clear that Vasher could not have imagined the route the doll would have to take in order to Fetch the keys, so something else must be the explanation.

 

Of course I am just guessing, but instead of the Spirit Realm, I imagine that the Cognitive Realm is involved. The keys know they are keys, and so the straw man just asks around, so to speak.

 

I realize that we know far more about the Cognitive Realm than the Spiritual one, so it's a natural tendency to imagine that one, instead. Nevertheless, it's my personal belief that Breath is largely Spiritual, so the Spiritual Realm seems more likely to be how it perceives. I realize we don't know what spiritwebs looks like, least of all do we know what spiritwebs look like to other spiritwebs, but presumably since the physical reality of keys can be recognized as keys, and, as you say, the cognitive reality of keys can be recognized as keys, I feel it's no great stretch to stipulate that the spiritual reality of keys can be recognized as keys just as easily, under ordinary circumstances.

[Terisen]

Well, we get some hints on this from the annotations Brandon wrote.

 

Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture.

 

If you’ve read the book through, then you know that Vasher’s simple-sounding Command of “Fetch Keys” given to the straw man is incredibly complex. In fact, it’s probably one of the most complicated Commands given to any Awakened object in the entire book.

 

Basically, Vasher had to mentally visualize how HE would have gone about trying to fetch the keys (ie, what's the process for finding keys for the cell) and place that into the little straw man.  That, as noted, is an incredibly complex Command.  So I don't think it's a matter of telling it discrete steps (go here, go here, open that, etc) but implanting a tiny amount of consciousness so that the straw man could problem solve.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Terisen

[Oudeis]

Terisen:

 

Your point is well-made, but largely tangential to my initial question. Since the straw man did, in fact, fetch the keys, obviously whatever it did worked, and the Command was successful.

 

My question is this. How did it see any of this? Or feel it, or perceive it by any means? The straw man had no eyes, it had no skin or nervous system. It's fine to say, Vasher gave it a complex enough mental command for it to deduce the best way to find and retrieve the keys, but how did it perceive the room, and the keys? Lifesense would prolly not have let it find the keys. Did it see without eyes? Did it touch every object in the room, despite lacking nerves, until it found something key-shaped? Is an Awakened object's perception at all similar to any of the five typical senses of a human? Does it possess magnetosense, or electroreception?

 

Could a blind Awakener make a seeing-eye doll? "Sit on my shoulder and tap me when I'm about to bump into something." "Lead me to the market." Can you Awaken a piece of rope to "point north"? Could it sense heat? However an Awakened object "sees" a person, can it tell the difference between individual people? "Let no one through but my brother Harry." Can it tell that a person intends harm? "Grab people who want to hurt me." What sense does it use to see people, and how much information does this sense provide? Does the Breath simply mimic typical sight without the need for ocular mechanisms? Does your mental command decide which senses the object gets? Can you give it a sense you yourself do not possess? Can you give it a sense you used to possess, but do not anymore? I am extremely near-sighted. If I took off my glasses, could I Command an object to see for me, and would it see as clearly as me-with-glasses, or me-at-this-moment? Is it possible for me, as a human, to understand the concept of electroreception well enough to imagine my creation having it, or does it have to be something I've at least experienced ever myself? If I Awaken a doll, and give it sight, can it go to a room, see things, and convey this knowledge back to me? Are there perhaps other Commands to end an Awakening besides, "Your Breath to Mine"? Could you say, "Your Breath to mine, your memories become mine," and then you'd see what it had seen?

[Terisen]

Outis:

 

Gotcha.  Didn't answer the inherent question.  Let me give this a go then.

 

Lot of questions there.  Let me see if I can group them.

 

 

Could a blind Awakener make a seeing-eye doll? "Sit on my shoulder and tap me when I'm about to bump into something." "Lead me to the market." Can you Awaken a piece of rope to "point north"? Could it sense heat? However an Awakened object "sees" a person, can it tell the difference between individual people? "Let no one through but my brother Harry." Can it tell that a person intends harm? "Grab people who want to hurt me." What sense does it use to see people, and how much information does this sense provide? Does the Breath simply mimic typical sight without the need for ocular mechanisms? Does your mental command decide which senses the object gets? Can you give it a sense you yourself do not possess? Can you give it a sense you used to possess, but do not anymore? I am extremely near-sighted. If I took off my glasses, could I Command an object to see for me, and would it see as clearly as me-with-glasses, or me-at-this-moment? Is it possible for me, as a human, to understand the concept of electroreception well enough to imagine my creation having it, or does it have to be something I've at least experienced ever myself? 

 

I think that you can only Awaken with "senses" that you already possess.  That is, you can't impart something to an Awakened object that you have no idea how to do yourself as that would be impossible to visualize the Command.  Take, for instance, your Command of "Sit on my should and tap me when I'm about to bump into something".  It might be possible to do this, but it's going to accomplish this the same way you would (with a cane, feeling around, etc) if you've been blind your whole life and that's the only way you personally would know if you'd bump into something.  If, however, you had sight at sometime in the past, you'd know how to visualize that Command, so I would say it is possible for the object to "see".

 

It essentially boils down to your own Cognitive Identity.

 

If I Awaken a doll, and give it sight, can it go to a room, see things, and convey this knowledge back to me? Are there perhaps other Commands to end an Awakening besides, "Your Breath to Mine"? Could you say, "Your Breath to mine, your memories become mine," and then you'd see what it had seen?

 

This might be possible, I'm not sure.  I'd lean towards "no", but I have nothing to base that on.  In fact, all of this is purely my speculation. 

[Oudeis]

I think that you can only Awaken with "senses" that you already possess.  

 

From your response, it seems that you mainly feel that the Breath grants the Awakened entity one or more of the mundane senses, bypassing the typical necessary mechanisms the way it already bypasses the need for actual muscles when it grants strength. Am I correct in my interpretation?

 

I have to say... I wish it were not so, but I have to agree with you. This solution seems the simplest and most elegant, and the most in keeping with the aspects of Awakening we've already seen. It's too bad, because Awakened objects having a unique spiritual sense would be far more interesting.

 

I have several additional speculative questions. They are mostly me just babbling, and I certainly don't mean to "put you on the spot" or assume that you know the answers. In the past I've come across as saying, "well answer these questions or else I'm not accepting your response," which could not be farther from what I intend. Basically, you seem smart and speculative, and I would very much like to brainstorm with you (or with anyone else who wants to jump in) if you don't mind rampant speculation.

 

Can you grant enhanced senses? Even in glasses, my vision isn't the best, but I've had better vision earlier in life. Could I grant an Awakened entity vision as good as I've ever had? It's not hard for me to imagine what it would be like to be able to read a sign that's very far away, even though my vision was never that good. Could I give my entity this ability? Could I give it a stronger, more discriminating sense of smell than my own? Many blind people are less than completely blind. Even if they can't distinguish well enough to walk unaided, could they still give an Awakened entity the ability to see at least far enough to distinguish "physical object" from "empty air" at a range of seven feet or so? Could a marine biologist who really, really understands electroreception grant it to a doll in the shape of a hammerhead shark?

 

I do have one last theory to support the idea of Awakened entities with their own special senses... I'm in the middle of a re-read and I'm not up to the scene yet, but at one point Vasher asks a bunch of little dolls to find a secret tunnel. What sense do they use? Do they simply see, closer to the ground, the outline of the door? Does he give them a sense of touch and they can 'feel' the difference between solid ground and hollow? Or, do they have a unique sense which allows them to locate things like secret doors?

 

I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic on more fun "conclusion" Commands. It feels very Sanderson to have a simple mechanic in an arcanum that we all believe we understand, but turns out to be far more complex than we at first realized. I realize that's a tenuous citation to hang my hopes on, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Until then, I'm going to dream. If it is possible, I wonder what other sort of things you can do with "conclusion" commands...

[PorridgeBrick]

I think an important question here is how do spren see. We know already that there's lots of parallels between Awakened objects and other Transformative Cognitive Entities, so it's quite possible that how they see the world is shared too. While they often take forms that have no sensory organs (like Syl as falling leaves), they are quite capable of sensing the world without them. These senses seem to be like ours: Pattern's eavesdropping relies on proximity, and seems pretty sound based. But they still have some other Spiritual/Cognitive sense(s), since Syl can tell when a certain hateful being is coming without any Physical cues. My bet is on Cognitive, since Transformative Cognitive Entities, are, well, Cognitive.

Also, does anyone remember how Nightblood perceived things? That's probably very important here.

[Oudeis]

Please, how do we know that there are a lot of parellels between Awakened objects and Transformative Cognitive Entities?

 

Nightblood's capacity to sense things is also very interesting and, you're right, important. Think especially of when he was thrown in the bay. He knew there was a fisherman nearby. He could tell how far away the net was, and in what direction. That far underwater, would normal sight have been able to give him this information? I know he has limited ability to read minds, but the fisherman didn't know where Nightblood was, so that information wasn't useful. If memory serves, it was night. There's no way he 'saw' the net from where he was, that deep in the water. Hearing, smell, and taste are also out. I guess maybe he has a physical sensation of touch? Except doesn't he at one point claim that he likes the sun, and Vasher tells him he can neither feel nor see the sun?

 

"How does Nightblood perceive the world" has become an important aspect of my question. Thank you, Brick!

[Terisen]

From your response, it seems that you mainly feel that the Breath grants the Awakened entity one or more of the mundane senses, bypassing the typical necessary mechanisms the way it already bypasses the need for actual muscles when it grants strength. Am I correct in my interpretation?

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going for.  

 

I have several additional speculative questions. They are mostly me just babbling, and I certainly don't mean to "put you on the spot" or assume that you know the answers. In the past I've come across as saying, "well answer these questions or else I'm not accepting your response," which could not be farther from what I intend. Basically, you seem smart and speculative, and I would very much like to brainstorm with you (or with anyone else who wants to jump in) if you don't mind rampant speculation.

 

Woo hoo!  Rampant speculation!  I'm in!  

 

I'm of the opinion that, if you can visualize what the sense acts like, you should be able to Awaken an object that has that sense.  In the case of you with your nearsightedness, I'd say you could Awaken something that had perfect vision because, despite not having perfect eyesight, you know what perfect eyesight is like and could visualize it (no pun intended!)

 

As for the hammerhead shark electroreception, I don't know how well that would work since it still may be hard to visualize.  I mean, you could try, but it may not come off quite correctly.

 

The case of Nightblood is really interesting.  You're right about how he talked to the fisherman before the fisherman even knew that Nightblood was down there.  Is it possible that there are senses that the Returned have that they can impart?  The Five Scholars were all Returned, so it's possible Nightblood got a "boost" from that.

[Oudeis]

I have looked through binoculars, and i have looked through a microscope. Does that mean i could give an Awakened entity telescopic vision? Microscopic vision? Would a tineye be able to Awaken an entity with beyond-human hearing? Could a Seeker make a straw doll with bronzedar? Could a Windrunner Awaken an entity able to draw in Stormlight and Lash?

Aaaand.... speculate!

[Zmann966]

 

 

It essentially boils down to your own Cognitive Identity.

 

 

 

 

This! This right here is the key phrase!

 

All power in the cosmere is some form of sentience. Human power of thought, shard power of thought, splinters of shard-power seem to gravitate towards thought. The cognitive realm is the pathway and the evidence of this. 

Things don't "see" they don't "think" right? Well in the cosmere, they do. Why? Because the spiritual power of the cosmere IS, to infinite extents, sentience. Spren, humans, objects, they all perceive themselves as something, its how we've quantified sentience for ages: "being self-aware"

 

More powerful entities may have stronger self-presence, as is the case for Shards. They know themselves they are Ruin, or Endowment.

Humans, as the primary lifeform of the cosmere have this sentience, and it's tightly interwoven with their lives and their spirit-web.

The Returned, for instance, have powerful investiture. Their self-view manifests physically in their bodies right? And with training they can change their self-image and physically alter their appearance.

 

So, to me at least, Awakened objects do exactly the same thing.

How do YOU know what a key is? How do you know to interpret "Fetch Keys"? Simple. Your sentience, which is part of you, gives you the capacity for intelligence, and through your experiences in life you have come to find meaning for these words.

An Awakened object is sentient, some less so than others (Nightblood for instance) and the more investiture used the higher their capacity for such "awareness" (which is why complex commands require more Breath)

Think about it this way. You give birth to a child and then teach it about the world. A piece of you is manifest and has the capacity to learn what you teach it.

You give Breath to an object and give it a command. A piece of your investiture is manifest in the world with a capacity to learn what you teach it, in this case only what need for it to fulfill it's commands.

You must visualize and understand a thing before you can teach it to a child, so true you must have a good vision of what you want accomplished before passing it on to this newly-formed intelligence of an Awakened object.

 

 

Breath is PART of being Nalthian, it is innate. No matter how much you accumulate or if you lose it, it's not "yours" it's simply a small additional capacity for sentience. One breath grants life-sense. Fifty grants aura recognition, 3,500 gives you the capacity for innate awakening.

Give that breath to an object? You just super-powered it's cognitive self. It ceases to be "mindless" like objects or unbonded spren. It suddenly has vast new potential. It is intelligent to understand so many new things...

 

It goes from the self-aware but quite stupid "I am a stick." to the infinitely more powerful "Fetch Keys"

 

How would you tell a child to fetch keys? You explain it (in this case with a clear command and vision of the task). "Somewhere in the adjoining room, or maybe down the hall, there is a small ring of keys. Little metallic sticks with funny-shaped ends. *flash card of keys* They might be on a man's belt or on a hook on the wall. Go, find them, then bring them back to me. *flash card of picking up keys and giving them to Vasher*"

Naturally, the object is going to use "senses" that you gave it in your imagination. "This is what keys look like." "This is what my muscles tightening feels like." Does that mean you can give it powers like you have? Probably not, but it will use whatever information you give it, like a newborn child, like a sponge. 

 

 

 

Which is also why it imitates human form (or works better imitating human form) it IS, in a way, human. Or rather, it's your child... And children grow to become their parents.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Zmann966

[Zmann966]

I imagine, the imagery used when creating Nightblood was something similar.

To "Destroy Evil" conjures the idea of finding evil, THEN destroying it.

To do so you would naturally impart the sense of how to find evil. Senses like, say, reading minds, or reading the hearts of men. 

 

Which makes me change my mind, perhaps you CAN give Awakened objects a power beyond what you posses, so long as your command and vision are strong enough to do so. (Though, it is pretty hard to imagine something you can't yourself know)

Any kind of comsere-power? Like surgebinding or allomancy? Maybe not, that has to do a lot more with the spiritual connection to the specific Shard's greater investiture in humanity.

Give an awakened object something that CAN be done w/ Breath or human prowess? Yes, definitely yes.

[WeiryWriter]

Please, how do we know that there are a lot of parellels between Awakened objects and Transformative Cognitive Entities?

 

There is this WoB:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Objects with almost sentient behavior like Nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the spren from The Way of Kings. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books.

 

(source)

[Oudeis]

Z-Man: to make sure i understand, your belief on senses, specifically, agrees with the consensus of the group, i.e., Breath simply grants the senses and bypasses the need for the mechanism (eyes) the way it grants locomotion while bypassing the need for the mechanism (muscles). Is my interpretation of your position correct?

Weiry: surely you will concede that the quote does not say 'Awakend objects, like Nightblood.' It says, 'objects with almost sentient behavior.' A rope that will 'hold when thrown' is no more sentient than a doorknob that will unlatch when twisted. In fact, the definition Vasher gives to explain the difference between Nightblood and typical Awakened objects is that he is sentient, and they are not. I think we would need to find a different quote to provide any sort of link between type III entities and spren. Brick, what had you meant when you said that 'we already know there are a lot of parellels between Awakened Objects and other transformative cognitive entities'?

[Oudeis]

Update as i read. Vasher is talking to Nightblood, and mentions that the sword cannot see the sunset. Nightblood agrees, but says he can feel Vasher seeing it. This just confuses me. Discuss.

[PorridgeBrick]

Here's a quote dump I made about this earlier.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Objects with almost sentient behavior like Nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the spren from The Way of Kings. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books.

QUESTION

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

QUESTION

If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal.

QUESTION

Is the bond between a Seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Q: Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?

A: That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

All I meant there is that Awakened objects, Seons/Skaze, and Spren, which were termed by the Ars Arcanum as "Transformative Cognitive Entities" iirc, share lots of attributes. They can bond with humans, resulting in benefits to both. They can take the forms of Shardblades. They all have some strong Cognitive aspect behind them– the Fire in firespren, the Destroy Evil in Nightblood, the Aon in Seons. They can exhibit sentience. They can be bound to objects (fabrials, the object that you Awaken, idk about Seons).

And yes, I'm aware that the quotes are talking specifically about Nightblood-class Awakened things, but I think that Type IIIs and spren are still pretty analogous. After all, the spren have the same divisions: you've got the intelligent nahel spren, and the less invested, non-sentient spren that simply swim through the currents. With Awakening, you've got the low-Investiture, low-sentience Type III's, and the uber-Invested Nightblood-class Type IV's. And about Type III intelligence- isn't there something in the annotations about how Vasher thanks his creations because he wonders how aware they really are?

Anyways, back on topic. I think Nightblood is using some of his mind reading (Cognitive?) senses there. When Vasher sees the sunset, his mind contains thoughts, concepts like "red", "beautiful", etc. Nightblood senses all those thoughts, and pieces together the images from that, so that he feels the sunset indirectly from Vasher's perception of it. What's interesting is that that confirms that Nightblood actually lacks Physical senses entirely, and just uses the magic, Cognitive/Spiritual senses to perceive the world. It also probably disconfirms the "Awakened Objects can only have the senses you can visualize" hypothesis. I really hope Type III's see the world this way too, since it's a pretty cool way to perceive things.

[Oudeis]

I'm not certain I agree with your idea on Awakened Objects and Spren, but there's already another thread on this topic on the Cosmere Theories forum, so if I feel like responding I will do so there.

 

The question remains, how did Nightblood tell the fisherman how far off his net was? We know Nightblood cannot see, himself, and the fisherman had no way to know himself where he was in relation to Nightblood (if he did, he prolly wouldn't have had to be told.) So, if Nightblood can only read minds, and the only "mind" nearby didn't know, how did Nightblood know?

 

The only answer I can come up with, and it feels like a bit of a cop-out to me, is, the net disturbed some fish, and Nightblood used his life-sense to determine in what direction and distance from him fish suddenly started moving in an agitated fashion, and extrapolated. Though if memory serves, Nightblood specifically says, "to your right." How could he know which way the man was facing? We get a very good idea of how Lifesense works from Vivenna's exploration of it, and at no point does she suggest she can determine things about people such as, "which way they are facing."

 

Throwing back to an earlier topic, I've thought about it and I'm more convinced now that a Seeker could give his Awakened object Bronzedar. A Seeker senses by drawing Investiture; the form this Investiture takes is shaped by the metal. Breath might also be other things, but it's also clearly a way to tap Investiture, and the Command would shape that power exactly the way the metal would. We've already seen that you can prolly grant mundane senses to Awakened objects, and they were able to grant extraordinary senses like Lifesense and telepathy in certain cases. Also, I'm certain there's a WoB out there mentioning that Scadrial is a comparatively low-Investiture shardworld, so it prolly wouldn't even take that much power. With a skilled Awakener who has experienced Bronzedar himself able to keep the mental command firm and clear, I don't see any reason why Breath couldn't power Bronzedar.

[Kalaks Beard]

Vasher said that there are nonsentient awakened objects, such as the rope which holds things, and sentient awakened objects, such as nightblood. I think however, that all awakened objects are sentient, just the level of sentience depends on the amount of investiture in the object. For example when Vasher awakens his cloak and tells the cloak to protect him, it has to have some level of sentience to obey. However, nightblood had 1000 breaths, which made him extremely sentient. By the way, this is just a theory, and I invite you to poke holes in it.

[Oudeis]

I mean, you're conflating the idea of "able to react to stimuli" with "sentience." A cow can react to stimuli. If you poke a cow with a cattle-prod, it'll move away from the cattle-prod. A fly will move towards things it wants to eat, a cockroach will flee light. Your computer. You press the "p" key, it interprets the electronic input, a bunch of other stuff happens, and then a "p" appears on your screen. You can run programs to have many, many effects.

 

Sentience isn't simply "able to react to a variety of stimuli and obey a series of commands." Sentience is a sense of self. The definition is a little fuzzy in real life, (wikipedia defines it as the ability to experience subjectivity) but it's a fundamentally different thing than what the cloak does when it "Protects" or the straw doll does when it "fetches".

 

Basically, the cloak is able to perceive (how, I don't know) a sharp object approaching at speed, fitting the definition of Vivenna's Command, and then react. What it doesn't appear to be capable of is to have a sense of self, to be able to recognize that it is an individual, to philosophize and to wonder about its place in the world, to have preferences or personality quirks.

 

To politely contradict you, sentience is absolutely not required for a cloak to "protect" Vasher, any more than sentience is required for a cow to run away from a cattle prod, or for my house alarm to start screaming and notify the police (both far more complicated actions) if you open my door without inputting the code. All other things being equal, I'm willing to take the word of Vasher when he says that Type III and Type IV entities are fundamentally different, not simply a difference of degree. After all, he's not only one of three viewpoint characters in the entire cosmere who is a legitimate scholar of his own arcanum, he's also the only living person to have ever made a Type IV entity. (Though yes, apparently Yesteel now knows the secret, too.)

[Pechvarry]

Nevertheless, it's my personal belief that Breath is largely Spiritual, so the Spiritual Realm seems more likely to be how it perceives.

I know it's a small thing, but I don't like this line of thinking. Everything we know about realmatics is 3 realms and their interplay. No matter how spiritual a given system is, Stormlight Archives shows us Identity is a very important building block of the Cognitive. Having a Spiritual equivalent is, frankly, redundant and inefficient.

Essentially, I think it's wrong to view 3 "realms" like alternate dimensions, planewalker style. They seem intended to be 3 layers to explain the entirety of reality, which means overlap is largely meaningless.

Self counterpoint: spiritual connection instead of cognitive identity. But see below.

All of that said... Nightblood doesn't simply notice people, and it's certainly not visualizing commands like where keys may be. He regularly identifies unique individuals. Yes, he's practically a small shard. But I see no reason to assume he operates on a fundamentally different level than an awakened curtain. He obviously understands identity. Thus, Awakened objects should also be able to (even if they lack discernment i.e. "all humans look the same.")

I can't help but mention Life Sense, here. It makes a certain kind of sense (heh) that the system which allows non-physical detection is the same system which needs a way to impart sensory capabilities without adding eyes, ears, or even a brain.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Pechvarry

[Oudeis]

I just wrote a very long post disagreeing with you, but I think it basically comes down to, a difference in how we each define Identity. Also I have no idea why Identity is something we're talking about on this thread.

If all you mean by Identity is knowing that people look different and they all have names... then you and I have very, very different definitions of the term in the cosmere. I don't know why we're talking about Identity, but if we are we should figure out what each other means. Please provide your definition of Identity, as I am doing below with mine.

To me, Identity is a spiritual concept. It's what drives you, it's what you care about, it's the things about yourself you hate but can't let go of. It's what makes you do thing that are irrational, it's where madness and love both come from. It's your mother's voice in your head every time you make a spelling mistake, it's what makes you wake up from a nightmare and reach across the bed, only to realize your girlfriend left you a month ago. It's the will to go on when your heart and brain and sinew are screaming to give up, and it defines the one thing in life you would kill to protect.

Just because Vivenna was able to Awaken Tonk Fah's cloak and let it distinguish facial features well enough to "Attack and grab Denth", does not mean even slightly that the cloak understood that Denth has hopes and dreams and loss and love, or that those concepts exist. None of them were required for the cloak to be provided a definition of, "that dark-haired guy wearing clothes over there."

One big point I want to address: "I see no reason to assume he operates on a fundamentally different level than an Awakened curtain." The reason is, Vasher said so. He told Vivenna that there is a fundamental difference. I realize that Mr. Sanderson has played this trick in the past, telling us "this is what people believe about arcanum" when in truth it was an old wive's tale. However, he's never pulled that trick when the person saying it was a literal accredited scholar of Type III and Type IV entities, and is in fact the man who created Nightblood and has been wielding him for three centuries. There might not be a single fact in all of BioChroma more well-established than this; if we disbelieve this just because there's a chance that it's wrong, where does it end? We'd be throwing literally everything revealed in the text out the window.

Lastly... I'm not sure what you're saying when you discuss the three realms. I think I agree with your underlying sentiment; the fact that things exist in all three Realms, and that's important. In fact, I've often been on your side, trying to convince people I'm talking to that Miles's spiritweb and cognitive aspect are both parts of the definition of "Miles." So... yeah, I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I can't help but mention Life Sense, here. It makes a certain kind of sense (heh) that the system which allows non-physical detection is the same system which needs a way to impart sensory capabilities without adding eyes, ears, or even a brain.

Aaaaaand you get around to addressing the main topic. So we've got one more vote for, "Awakened Objects are simply granted mundane human senses, bypassing the mechanisms." Am I correct in my interpretation of your position?

[Satsuoni]

About Life sense - in the same chapter as Nightblood and Sunset there is this:

 

Although it was dark, Vasher’s life sense was strong. He could just faintly feel the grass growing below and knew how far away it was. With more Breath, he might even have been able to sense the lichen growing on the palace stones.

Note that Vasher can sense that something is grass and where it is. Nightblood is an entity mainly made of Breaths, geared toward interaction with humans by its command :

 

But with its powerful, twisted BioChroma, it could sense life and people. Both were things Nightblood had been created to protect.

So itslifesense is apparently enough to feel the fisherman, feel his location and possibly lift his direction from his head. Or possibly, his  lifesense is varied enough to act like Inquisitor's Steelsight, feeling variations inside the body enough to tell where a person is facing. It is his major sense, so it is probably that it is better developed than in human, who has other senses overshadowing it.

 

Which does not explain how  a straw figure would be able to even walk - two-legged (I assume) walk requires a lot of senses to properly pull off - balance, touch, relative positions of body parts, something  for navigation. Part of it is probably carried over from the fact that Breaths were originally human, and so fit better to human patterns. Other... Yes, I would probably have to go with "Shadesmar sight." It is one of my currently dominant opinions that Spiritual realm does not have...Distance and time resolution, for lack of better word. For me, it contains more of the history and interactions of the object than the object itself (as if THAT makes any sense ), past, present and future. 

OK, my head is a mess. Anyway. IMO (current): Breaths have at least some cognitive component, with even more being added by Command, and the object uses that for senses. Depending on command, it can filter the input in different ways.

[PorridgeBrick]

Aaaaaand you get around to addressing the main topic. So we've got one more vote for, "Awakened Objects are simply granted mundane human senses, bypassing the mechanisms." Am I correct in my interpretation of your position?

I don't think he means that at all. If Life Sense is one of the primary ways AOs sense everything (which is very likely IMO) then that's the exact opposite of "mundane human senses".

It is one of my currently dominant opinions that Spiritual realm does not have...Distance and time resolution, for lack of better word. For me, it contains more of the history and interactions of the object than the object itself (as if THAT makes any sense ), past, present and future.

I really like this idea. With all the talk about Spiritwebs, Spiritual connections (which are as varied as that of gravity and that of friendship), as well as Investiture rhythms/wavelengths, I've started to picture the Spiritual Realm as one giant spiderweb. You have all the essential Forms floating around in space, connected by strings all vibrating at their own frequencies. As connections change, the strings detach and reattach, constantly changing the web.