Terisen

Shardplate is a Radiant's Spiritweb

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If this is true, (And I think it is) then how did the Knights Radiant Get rid of their Spiritweb?

 

EDIT: I think I've espoused all of your theories. You're rapidly becoming my favorite Theorist on this Site.

Edited by The Only Joe
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I've read a bunch of theories on Stormplate (I've been scraping the WoR boards for my index lately), and this theory is unique, never occurred to me at all, and is actually kind of plausible. Some interesting things that might support it...

  • Getting stabbed by a Hemalurgic spike and surviving is very similar to the noted Lifeless and lost Radiant condition as described.
  • In this context, the Breastplate being shattered reminds me of how Inquisitors die when their lynchpin is removed.
  • Kaladin does not hear screaming when holding the Shardplate helmet.
  • Dead Shardblades are theorized as being stored in the Spiritual Realm when unmanifested. Their appearance and disappearance mirrors the appearance/disappearance of Shardplate.
  • Shardplate do not bond as Shardblades do, and Spiritweb remnants would have no reason to bond.
  • Shardplate holds a large amount of Stormlight. Investiture transcends Realms, but is theorized to often be 'held' or transferred through the spiritual realm.

Things that don't necessarily make sense with this theory:

  • Shardplate can be regrown from any piece, and when it is, the smaller pieces will dissolve. This vaguely mirrors how Healing works Cognitively, but not entirely. We don't have any indication particular spiritwebs work like this.
  • Shardblades appear to cut spiritual aspects of people - yet Shardplate heavily resists them.
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EDIT: I think I've espoused all of your theories. You're rapidly becoming my favorite Theorist on this Site.

 

Sshh!  Tempus will hear you...oh crap, there he is!   :P   Thanks man!

 

 

If this is true, (And I think it is) then how did the Knights Radiant Get rid of their Spiritweb?

 

This is a good question and I'm not really sure.  This makes me believe that the actual mechanics of the Recreance is going to have big implications for the overall Cosmere once we understand them.

 

 

Things that don't necessarily make sense with this theory:

  • Shardplate can be regrown from any piece, and when it is, the smaller pieces will dissolve. This vaguely mirrors how Healing works Cognitively, but not entirely. We don't have any indication particular spiritwebs work like this.
  • Shardblades appear to cut spiritual aspects of people - yet Shardplate heavily resists them.

 

1) Might be misunderstanding what you meant, but I thought it was the pieces that were separate that would disintegrate when regrowing Shardplate, ie those pieces that were not connected directly anymore with the Plate being regrown.  Plate could be regrown from any piece and those not connected to it would crumble.  The smaller pieces on the connected Plate would be fine and not crumble.

 

2)  I'm strictly guessing that the Investiture in the Plate resists because it's been brought to the Physical Realm.  The spren are Cognitive beings and (I'm guessing) don't cut the spiritual aspects of anyone when they are strictly in the Cognitive.  It's when they're brought to the Physical and have the bond that they can start cutting things.  I'd say that the inverse (protecting instead of cutting) is happening with the Plate.  But I'd love other people's takes on it.

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This is a good question and I'm not really sure.  This makes me believe that the actual mechanics of the Recreance is going to have big implications for the overall Cosmere once we understand them.

 

1) Might be misunderstanding what you meant, but I thought it was the pieces that were separate that would disintegrate when regrowing Shardplate, ie those pieces that were not connected directly anymore with the Plate being regrown.  Plate could be regrown from any piece and those not connected to it would crumble.  The smaller pieces on the connected Plate would be fine and not crumble.

 

2)  I'm strictly guessing that the Investiture in the Plate resists because it's been brought to the Physical Realm.  The spren are Cognitive beings and (I'm guessing) don't cut the spiritual aspects of anyone when they are strictly in the Cognitive.  It's when they're brought to the Physical and have the bond that they can start cutting things.  I'd say that the inverse (protecting instead of cutting) is happening with the Plate.  But I'd love other people's takes on it.

 

I like this theory... I have always ascribed to the Shardplate is solidified stormlight, but I love the thought of the 3 Realms coming together in the Knights Radiant, Physical Body, Coginitive Weapon, Spiritual Armor...

 

TO me the Radiants who gave up the Blade/Plate in the Feverstone Keep vision, didn't seem like Lifeless to me, but more closely, Drabs with a sense of determination. I think this still works with your thought about giving up a portion of their spirit web, I don't think they gave up most or even a majority of it in the Shardplate, but enough... just like someone who survives a hemalurgic spiking would be messed up afterwards, and we see Drabs lacking lifesense and interest in the world around them, etc.These Radiants seem to have lost many of the positive aspects. Could also just be that they were determined and didn't want to talk to anyone after killing their bonded spren...

 

That has always interested me about the vision at Feverstone... why were there no Radiants depicted as sad or torn up at the emotion of having just killed their closest friend/bond partner? 

 

As to the plate resisting the blade... investiture resists investiture. To me that part has always made sense. Just like it is hard to push/pull on a heavily invested object, so Blade/plate resisting each other makes sense too. 

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TO me the Radiants who gave up the Blade/Plate in the Feverstone Keep vision, didn't seem like Lifeless to me, but more closely, Drabs with a sense of determination. I think this still works with your thought about giving up a portion of their spirit web, I don't think they gave up most or even a majority of it in the Shardplate, but enough... just like someone who survives a hemalurgic spiking would be messed up afterwards, and we see Drabs lacking lifesense and interest in the world around them, etc.These Radiants seem to have lost many of the positive aspects.

 

You very well may be right about the fact that it's not a majority of their spiritweb, only a portion.  There's 8 gemstones that power Shardplate (I think) and I'm fairly certain there are more Hemalurgic points than that, so it would make sense that the Fallen Radiants still retained a portion.  It would still put them somewhere between a Drab and a Lifeless.

 

 

Could also just be that they were determined and didn't want to talk to anyone after killing their bonded spren...

 

That has always interested me about the vision at Feverstone... why were there no Radiants depicted as sad or torn up at the emotion of having just killed their closest friend/bond partner? 

 

Before I thought of this, I had assumed the same thing.  They were just, well, bummed and didn't want to talk about it.  But all 200 of them acting in pretty much the same way?  You'd think you would get a greater variation of reactions if everyone was still "intact".

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There is a quote proving there is a third realm in early WoR besides Shadesmar and the Physical Realm, when Jasnah is talking to Shallan.

 

 

Words of Radiance, Chapter 1, Page 40

 

"All things have three components: the soul, the body, and the mind. The place you saw, Shadesmar, is what we call the Cognitive Realm - the place of the mind."

If the physical world is the world of 'the body', and Shadesmar is the world of 'the mind', then the Spiritual Realm is the place of 'the soul'.

 

Maybe this is why Shardblades do no physical damage to the body, but instead sever the soul from the body. Maybe this is why you can heal from a Shardblade wound if you can suck in stormlight.

 

WoR spoiler & Warbreaker spoiler:

Szeth was also healed from a Shardblade wound through the spine when Vasher healed him. Maybe because Vasher had lots of breath, and Breath in part makes up a person's soul, he was able to go into the Spiritual Realm and fix Szeth somehow? Is that how it works? You need Stormlight to go to Shadesmar, and Breath to go to the Spiritual Realm?

If that is the case, what is the relationship between:

a ) Stormlight and the mind?

b ) Breath and Stormlight?

Edited by TenSoon
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WoR spoiler & Warbreaker spoiler:

Szeth was also healed from a Shardblade wound through the spine when Vasher healed him. Maybe because Vasher had lots of breath, and Breath in part makes up a person's soul, he was able to go into the Spiritual Realm and fix Szeth somehow? Is that how it works? You need Stormlight to go to Shadesmar, and Breath to go to the Spiritual Realm?

If that is the case, what is the relationship between:

a ) Stormlight and the mind?

b ) Breath and Stormlight?

 

The problem here is that it wasn't Vasher, it was Nalan.  And he used a fabrial instead of Breath.

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I like this theory... I have always ascribed to the Shardplate is solidified stormlight, but I love the thought of the 3 Realms coming together in the Knights Radiant, Physical Body, Coginitive Weapon, Spiritual Armor...

 

OK, I have no problem with the idea of Shardplate being a Physical manifestation of a Spiritweb, but I do disagree with the idea of the Radiants being a manifestation of all three Realms, at least in the way described. Brandon has said that his inspiration for the Knights Radiant came from this: that knights have three things; their sword, their armor, and their horse*. Whether the horse gives us an extra connection to the Physical Realm, I don't know. However, Even though Shardblades do have Cognitive aspects, they are equally Spiritual*. 

 

(Every asterisk is a WoB that I can't find. I would really like a fast, sorted database of quotes…)

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OK, I have no problem with the idea of Shardplate being a Physical manifestation of a Spiritweb, but I do disagree with the idea of the Radiants being a manifestation of all three Realms, at least in the way described. Brandon has said that his inspiration for the Knights Radiant came from this: that knights have three things; their sword, their armor, and their horse*. Whether the horse gives us an extra connection to the Physical Realm, I don't know. However, Even though Shardblades do have Cognitive aspects, they are equally Spiritual*. 

 

(Every asterisk is a WoB that I can't find. I would really like a fast, sorted database of quotes…)

 

Like this one at Theoryland? Or this thread over here: Compiled Words of Brandon x2:D

 

All things in the Cosmere are comprised of aspects of all 3 realms. At least if you believe Shai. So yes, Shardblades have Spiritual sides to them. 

 

There are a couple of WoB that talk about a Shardblade cutting the "soul" of something. One specifically Brandon says that it cuts the soul of "the arm" and another where he just says "the soul" Here

 

That being said, Shardblades are Spren are primarily Cognitive. A spiritweb by definition is a spiritual portion of a human, so is the Spiritual portion of the human. 

 

I wasn't saying that KR are "manifestations of all three realms", since every walking human is just that in the Cosmere. I was saying it would be cool if the KR's abilities were some parts of the 3 realms. Physical presence, Cognitive weapon, and Spiritual armor. 

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I have a somewhat related question.  With painted plate (as most is) do you have to re-paint it every time you get in a fight?

 

Does the paint seep into your soul and get infused into the plate?  =)

Edited by soulcastJam
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Like this one at Theoryland? Or this thread over here: Compiled Words of Brandon x2:D

 

All things in the Cosmere are comprised of aspects of all 3 realms. At least if you believe Shai. So yes, Shardblades have Spiritual sides to them. 

 

There are a couple of WoB that talk about a Shardblade cutting the "soul" of something. One specifically Brandon says that it cuts the soul of "the arm" and another where he just says "the soul" Here

 

That being said, Shardblades are Spren are primarily Cognitive. A spiritweb by definition is a spiritual portion of a human, so is the Spiritual portion of the human. 

 

I wasn't saying that KR are "manifestations of all three realms", since every walking human is just that in the Cosmere. I was saying it would be cool if the KR's abilities were some parts of the 3 realms. Physical presence, Cognitive weapon, and Spiritual armor. 

 

I got what you were saying. I just didn't word my response well. Sorry about the misunderstanding. 

 

What I was saying is that I remember Brandon saying that Shardblades have a stronger presence in the Cognitive and Spiritual realm than in the Physical. 

 

Meaning that spren have primarily Cognitive and Spiritual aspects but little Physical aspect outside of a Nahel bond. 

 

Also, I think that Rhyshadium (that's what they're called, right) are going to be a lot more important in the future as Radiant mounts. Although, if we had chasmfiend or santhid mounts… Bonus Awesome Factor!

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I have a somewhat related question.  With painted plate (as most is) do you have to re-paint it every time you get in a fight?

 

Does the paint seep into your soul and get infused into the plate?  =)

 

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's repainted just because it's something that's not inherently part of the plate.  Same with the ornamentation that's attached.  Otherwise (if my theory is right), it would be a sort of Hemalurgy to graft something new into the soul and I doubt that's very much the case here.

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I love the idea that Shardplate is a physical manifestation of the Spiritweb. It makes sense to me.  I wish I could up vote this so many more times.  I'm espousing this. This is now my head canon until I'm told otherwise. 

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I have a question about Shardplate. If you break a piece of Shardplate, you can 'regrow' it using the remaining pieces of Shardplate. First of all, how does this work. I don't think it works naturally, because Dalinar said somewhere in the books that it would take longer to regrow Shardplate if the Parshendi also tried to regrow it, meaning there is some sort of physical process involved.

 

And my other question is, what would happen if every single piece of Shardplate was systematically destroyed? Because the process requires the other pieces of shardplate, so would that be the end of the Shardplate, fullstop? If there is a WoB I'm missing, please quote it.

 

Thanks

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If the Shardplate is a KR Spiritweb, then wouldn't it hurt to be hit? Wouldn't breaking the Shardplate cause actual physical damage to the KR? Or are the three Aspects of a person not so intrinsically linked?

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I have a question about Shardplate. If you break a piece of Shardplate, you can 'regrow' it using the remaining pieces of Shardplate. First of all, how does this work. I don't think it works naturally, because Dalinar said somewhere in the books that it would take longer to regrow Shardplate if the Parshendi also tried to regrow it, meaning there is some sort of physical process involved.

 

And my other question is, what would happen if every single piece of Shardplate was systematically destroyed? Because the process requires the other pieces of shardplate, so would that be the end of the Shardplate, fullstop? If there is a WoB I'm missing, please quote it.

 

Thanks

 

From what I gathered, you need to feed it stormlight in order for the suit to rebuilt itself. You can regrow an entire suit with just a gauntlet. However, if someone is owning the rest of the suit and is trying to regrow it on their side, the gauntlet will not be strong enough to overtake the growth. We also have quotes stating it is easier and quicker to regrow a broken suit if you have all the pieces. Adolin called it a seed and asked for the bridgemen to try and look for the missing part of his.

 

If the whole suit was completely destroyed, then I guess it would be destroyed for good. I wonder if we are going to see that in the following book.

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When I saw the title I was skeptical in the extreme, but I quite like the theory now that I've read it. You're definitely one of my favorite theorists. How do you explain how Shardblades can't cut Shardplate?

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If the Shardplate is a KR Spiritweb, then wouldn't it hurt to be hit? Wouldn't breaking the Shardplate cause actual physical damage to the KR? Or are the three Aspects of a person not so intrinsically linked?

 

It might.  Could function like padding in sports.  Protects you, but you still feel the hit.  Personally, I would say that the Shardplate is disconnected enough to avoid that when a Radiant uses it.  Though, Kaladin does note that it really hurt to take that Shardblade hit to the forearm when Szeth cut him.

 

When I saw the title I was skeptical in the extreme, but I quite like the theory now that I've read it. You're definitely one of my favorite theorists. How do you explain how Shardblades can't cut Shardplate?

 

In overly simplistic terms, it has Investiture.  Shardblades do eventually cut through Plate, so it's not as if it's an absolute barrier.  Just takes more work.  As to the nitty gritty mechanics of it, your guess is a good as mine!

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Also, why is a shardblade stronger than Shardplate? Shardblades can survive tons of hits and stuff, and as far as we can tell, are indestructible. Shardplate obviously isn't. What's your answer to that?

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It might.  Could function like padding in sports.  Protects you, but you still feel the hit.  Personally, I would say that the Shardplate is disconnected enough to avoid that when a Radiant uses it.  Though, Kaladin does note that it really hurt to take that Shardblade hit to the forearm when Szeth cut him.

 

 

Mmm, I suppose. Though I have another question, if it is the KR's Spiritweb how can they use magic if they can separate themselves from their soul enough to not feel the hit/be damaged by the hit? I mean their soul is now outside their body. How can they access the Investiture that the Spiritweb holds?

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Mmm, I suppose. Though I have another question, if it is the KR's Spiritweb how can they use magic if they can separate themselves from their soul enough to not feel the hit/be damaged by the hit? I mean their soul is now outside their body. How can they access the Investiture that the Spiritweb holds?

 

We're obviously past using a lot of text sources for this, so I'm simply offering up my opinion here.  I would think that it doesn't really make a difference that the spiritweb is brought into the Physical in terms of accessing the Investiture.  It's still a part of the person, so they'd be able to access it.

 

The closest thing in the Cosmere that I can equate it to is Breath.

 

Breath is essentially Spiritual and is manifest in the Physical Realm.  Even when the Awakener sends the Breath into another object, he/she still is associated to it in some sense as he/she can recall the Breath (in most cases).  

 

It's not a perfect 1-to-1 comparison, but it does show that Spiritual aspects do no become completely detached.

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@Terisen ( Can't quote because my computer has decided to throw a tantrum. )

 

In regards to the Breath thing. Breath is Investiture not the Spiritweb. The fact that an Awakener can store it outside the body and retrieve it later isn't an indication that the same can be done with the Spiritweb. Breath is also designed to be removed, I don't think that the same could be said of the Spiritweb.

 

Hemalurgy is probably the best example of what happens when the Spiritweb is removed. As in when it is removed the person no longer has access to the Investiture that is stored in that particular point. Though to be fair Hemalurgy isn't all that great as an example because the Spiritweb is being forcibly removed by an outside source, not the 'owner' ( for lack of a better term. ) of the Spiritweb.

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I was rereading WoK today, and found this tidbit from when Dalinar killed some Parshendi archers aiming at Bridge 4:

 

 

The Shardbearer's honor guard caught up with him. He turned, armor seeming to glow as he raised his Blade in a salute of respect toward the bridgemen. Then he charged off in another direction.

 

Any theories on this? We know that Dalinar has been subconsciously using Stormlight for a while -- and I think that his descriptions of 'being the Blackthorn' sound like something beyond just the Thrill -- so that might explain it.  

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@Terisen ( Can't quote because my computer has decided to throw a tantrum. )

 

In regards to the Breath thing. Breath is Investiture not the Spiritweb. The fact that an Awakener can store it outside the body and retrieve it later isn't an indication that the same can be done with the Spiritweb. Breath is also designed to be removed, I don't think that the same could be said of the Spiritweb.

 

Hemalurgy is probably the best example of what happens when the Spiritweb is removed. As in when it is removed the person no longer has access to the Investiture that is stored in that particular point. Though to be fair Hemalurgy isn't all that great as an example because the Spiritweb is being forcibly removed by an outside source, not the 'owner' ( for lack of a better term. ) of the Spiritweb.

 

Admittedly, not a great example.  I don't think there's a direct analogue that can be used here.  Hemalurgy is different because, as you point out, you're ripping it away from the individual.  It's gone.  Plus, I don't think the spiritweb ever comes into the physical realm with the spike.  The spike is just a mechanism to move something around within the spiritual.

 

A person's spiritweb is still them, so whether or not it's in the physical realm or not, it should still be able to be used by the individual.

 

 

I was rereading WoK today, and found this tidbit from when Dalinar killed some Parshendi archers aiming at Bridge 4:

 

 

Any theories on this? We know that Dalinar has been subconsciously using Stormlight for a while -- and I think that his descriptions of 'being the Blackthorn' sound like something beyond just the Thrill -- so that might explain it.  

 

To be honest, I don't have much to say on this.  Glowing has always been associated with a good amount of Stormlight in this series, so he had Stormlight coming from SOMEWHERE, possibly the Parshendi gems, but we don't really know if he was the one pulling it in.

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