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Why can't Kandra reproduce?


Walter The Moral

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11 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

If Kandra can perfectly imitate a human body, why can't they also replicate the reproductive system? If they did, what would be born? A human, or a Kandra?

A good question. Brandon has been asked this before, but it seems that he isn't sure yet whether he wants to make it possible for a Kandra to be able to reproduce with a human yet- it would likely end up depending on whether Kandra DNA is actually different from humans or whether they can mimic even cells with their shapeshifting.

Quote
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10645

Questioner

My friends and I had this debate when we were playing the Mistborn Adventure Game. So when a kandra imitates a human, do they replicate the organs perfectly?

Brandon Sanderson

Usually, yes. But there are kandra that do not, by intention, do that.

Questioner

Does that include the reproductive organs?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So theoretically if a kandra were to copulate with a human while pretending to be a human, would it create another human?

Brandon Sanderson

It would. And I think I've been consistent on that. So, I have to do things like this because I didn't want a blood test to be able to determine who was a kandra and who wasn't, because that's your go-to way to find a shapeshifter. So I think I had to imitate entirely. But boy, would it imitate the genetic code... *sounds of thought and frustration*

Questioner

That's the question we have.

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I don't know that they would...so they were human...I'm going to go ahead and back pedal and RAFO on that. I haven't decided 100% yet...I know you can't tell with a bloodtest, but if you look at the DNA, would you be able to tell it's a kandra? And I'm kinda thinking you probably would be able to. 

Questioner

So then, following that they wouldn't be able to reproduce.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to reproduce in that case. I'm gonna go--jury's out. And I have to really make a call on this. I'm going to say, "Yes," right now, that they are doing this down to the cellular level, a copy, but I may have to backpedal on that when I get to future Mistborn books, when I really look at it, what it would take, to do that. It's an unofficial yes, with a RAFO attached to it.

 
Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10/#e6562

Questioner

If a kandra and a human were to have a baby, what would that baby be like?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that right now… It would depend... The kandra would have to remain in human form, keep the same body, and then would give birth to a human. If it was a woman [human] with a man [kandra], it wouldn’t be that big of a deal, with a kandra. Does that make sense? Because when the kandra is in human form, they can identically recreate the bodily functions and things if they want to.

 
 
Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e178

Questioner

This became a question, I thought this had been answered, but kandra can't produce kandra children.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes they can. You get them some spikes.

Questioner

Can the kandra produce human children with consumed parts?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I saw a big thread about this on Reddit and chose not to participate, despite being asked to.

Questioner

I thought she said that you did, so…

Brandon Sanderson

I gave vague and unuseful answers, and so I'm going to give the same to you. RAFO.

 

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11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, that's what it comes down to. If they can imitate the DNA, then it should work. If they can't then it won't.

I feel like they should be able to copy DNA because we know they can copy very specific proteins (MeLaan's tissue graft to Marasi)...

Good catch- if a Kandra can do that (which we've seen they clearly can), they probably can reproduce with humans.

What's interesting then, is that a Kandra's shapeshifting is going to be entirely magical in nature- otherwise they'd get stuck into the first form they copied because their DNA and cellular structure would change and prevent them from further changes. 

This means that any offspring the Kandra have with humans may end up with at least a portion of this ability, perhaps allowing them to change shape still, though maybe not to the same extent. After all, Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

The Idrian Royal Locks are a result of Returned lineage and those with the Locks having a fragment of Divine Breath in them- they don't have the ability to change appearance to the same extent as an actual Returned, but they still have some ability with enough practice.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7481

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher Explains Some Things, but Leaves Some Things Hidden

I'm worried about leaving Vivenna's two questions unanswered. One is pretty obvious—how Vasher can hide how he looks—but the other is unintuitive. I wish I could explain better in the book, as I said above, but I decided in the end to just leave it hanging. It's a bit of a violation of Sanderson's First Law, but not a big one. The reason I feel I can get away with it is because Vasher didn't use his nature as a Returned to solve any problems. It is more a flavoring for his character than it is important to him getting out of danger or fixing things. He could have done everything he needed to in this book without being Returned. So I feel it's okay not to explain why he can be Returned and not die when he gives away his Breaths.

Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can't change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

And yes, the scraggly miscreant is how Vasher sees himself. Not noble and Returned, which is part of how he suppresses his divine Breath.

Events in the second book may change that.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

What's interesting then, is that a Kandra's shapeshifting is going to be entirely magical in nature- otherwise they'd get stuck into the first form they copied because their DNA and cellular structure would change and prevent them from further changes.

 Not necessarily. A kandra copying human DNA does not have to mean that it loses its own DNA in the process. That depends on how kandra mimicry fundamentally works.

It is possible that it works like RL horizontal gene transfer, eg bacterial transformation - DNA taken in from the environment (in this case, what the kandra eats) is added to the cell in addition to the cell's pre-existing DNA. This would allow a kandra to replicate human proteins exactly (since it has the exact genes for those proteins) without losing its own DNA in the process.

But if this is how it works, it wouldn't necessarily make the kandra interfertile with humans. It would have to have a way to ensure only the human DNA ended up in the gametes during the meiosis process, which seems way more complex ... but maybe an ability they need if they can pass an early 20th century tech blood test, unless kandra blood is that similar to human blood.

-

Honestly, kandra biology strikes me as possibly needing a soft retcon or at least a clarification. With the things we've seen them do in Era 2, it frankly makes no sense they can't make bones, much less hair (those things are produced from living cells) - especially since MeLaan is specifically described as making tendons, which are collagen based connective tissue like the organic component of bone.

I think kandra shapeshifting is intended to be entirely Physical, but as of right now the no bone/hair rule feels more like a Cognitive limitation.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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  • 1 month later...
On 10.5.2023 at 9:32 PM, cometaryorbit said:

 Not necessarily. A kandra copying human DNA does not have to mean that it loses its own DNA in the process. That depends on how kandra mimicry fundamentally works.

It is possible that it works like RL horizontal gene transfer, eg bacterial transformation - DNA taken in from the environment (in this case, what the kandra eats) is added to the cell in addition to the cell's pre-existing DNA. This would allow a kandra to replicate human proteins exactly (since it has the exact genes for those proteins) without losing its own DNA in the process.

If it works that way you could make a simple blood test for Kandra DNA.

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13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If it works that way you could make a simple blood test for Kandra DNA.

 Brandon has said that he hasn't decided yet whether they replicate DNA and thus whether a DNA-era blood test could spot one or not.

So this might be possible eventually. Maybe in Era 3, maybe not -- 1980s tech is right on the line where this became possible. First forensic DNA use was mid-1980s.

Scadrial tech development is roughly analogous to ours but not identical, so it'd be easy to justify either it being known or unknown.

If they can pass a DNA test, though, then they really should be able to reproduce with humans. If they can put just human DNA in white blood cells, they should be able to put just human DNA in gametes.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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On 24.6.2023 at 1:12 AM, cometaryorbit said:

 Brandon has said that he hasn't decided yet whether they replicate DNA and thus whether a DNA-era blood test could spot one or not.

Well, from a story telling perspective I am afraid the thing has been decided with Bands of Mourning. As soon as the spikes were ripped out of MeLaan it was clear that Kandra physically have two pieces of metal inside their bodies. That means as soon as X-rays or even mine detectors are invented, Kandra are detectable. No need to go for DNA.

On 24.6.2023 at 1:12 AM, cometaryorbit said:

If they can pass a DNA test, though, then they really should be able to reproduce with humans. If they can put just human DNA in white blood cells, they should be able to put just human DNA in gametes.

Yes. But here we are at the point where we need to ask what the effect of the spirit web on a developing embryo is. It is possible that the combination of Kandra and human is not viable on that level.

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22 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, from a story telling perspective I am afraid the thing has been decided with Bands of Mourning. As soon as the spikes were ripped out of MeLaan it was clear that Kandra physically have two pieces of metal inside their bodies. That means as soon as X-rays or even mine detectors are invented, Kandra are detectable. No need to go for DNA.

That's a good point. Once metal detectors become a thing, there's no need to go for something like a DNA test, which is a point for them being able to have children, should Brandon decide to let them copy humans on a genetic level.

What happens if two Kandra mimic humans (or any other animal, for that matter) and try to reproduce? What if a Kandra mimics an animal that reproduces asexually and tries to reproduce that way instead?

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On 5/10/2023 at 3:32 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Not necessarily. A kandra copying human DNA does not have to mean that it loses its own DNA in the process. That depends on how kandra mimicry fundamentally works.

^This. Chimera Syndrome (Mosaicism) has shown humans with more than one DNA profile - either genetically, or artifically-induced side effect (transplants - bone marrow and some organs).

My personal canon (until other evidence) is that biologically, the reproduction could occur; but Spiritweb dissonance prevents the zygote from developing.

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