Royal Locks

[Ibunnuk]

Okay so we know that as a decendent of Vo the royal family can change the colour and length of their hair, Also their beards as I read in one Q&A which I found strangely amusing, but at what point do you become un-royal enough to lose this ability? We know that at least 2 out of 4 of Dedelins children could do this so I don't think it's a stretch to assume the other 2 could as well but what about his brothers and sisters? And their kids and so on and so on all the way back to Vo?

I suppose what I'm asking here is why, over the course of the hundreds of years hasn't this resulted in an entire nation of people who can do this rather than just the one branch of a family and will the ability carry on into all of Dedelins grandchildren or only to Vienna children as she is his heir?

Edited for some spelling mistakes but I probably missed some as well

Edited June 18, 2014 by Ibunnuk

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Well there is the held belief among the Idrians that only the "potential heirs" having the ability. 

 

It's no where stated, but I believe that is just a matter of perception and cognitive ability for the Idrians more than a real statement. 

[Kurkistan]

I believe it's outlined quite clearly in the books what happens.
 

Vivenna shot a glance at Denth, and he nodded. So she shifted colors a couple of times. Grable watched intently, scratching at his beard.
“Nice,” he finally said. “Nice indeed. Where’d you find her?”
Denth frowned. “What?”
“A person with enough royal blood to imitate one of the princesses.”
“She’s no impostor,” Denth said as Tonk Fah continued to work on the plate of fried somethings.
“Come now,” Grable said, smiling with a wide, uneven smile. “You can tell me.”
“It’s true,” Vivenna said. “Being royal is about more than just blood. It’s about lineage and the holy calling of Austre. My children will not have the Royal Locks unless I become queen of Idris. Only potential heirs have the ability to change their hair color.”

 
My reading is that either you're born with the Locks or not: you keep them no matter what if you are born with them, but then your children only get them if their in the direct line of Royal succession.

 

There is a bit of a question, I suppose, as to whether, say, a child born before Vivienne became queen, or perhaps even before she actually became first in the succession, would get them as soon as she took the throne or something.

The "not losing them no matter what" is borne out by Denth.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Ibunnuk]

Okay so does that then mean that if enough people believe something or think of something in a certain way then it would alter that thing in the physical realm? For arguments sake if Vasher had persuaded all of Hallendren that a fish could speak would that fish suddenly develop the ability to speak.

I just wonder how much influence the cognitive realm has on the physical and what those limitations may be and if they change from world to world. Ie soul casting on roshar or forging on sel

[Ibunnuk]

My reading is that either you're born with the Locks or not: you keep them no matter what if you are born with them, but then your children only get them if their in the direct line of Royal succession.

There is a bit of a question, I suppose, as to whether, say, a child born before Vivienne became queen, or perhaps even before she actually became first in the succession, would get them as soon as she took the throne or something.

The "not losing them no matter what" is borne out by Denth.

You managed to basically ask my next question in your edit. What would happen then if Vienna became queen and had kids but then a tragedy struck and they all died in a plague? Would the children of the second daughter (I can't remember her name right now) suddenly develop this ability?

Also am I misunderstanding the quote or is it saying that this is then a direct effect of the spiritual realm on the physical?

[WeiryWriter]

Hmm I wonder what would happen if all the King/Queen's siblings and children are dead, and the crown had to pass to one of their niblings (yes that's a word, it is to niece/nephew what sibling is to brother/sister, isn't language fun?) who would *not* have been born with the Royal Locks?  Would they manifest it?  Would their (future?) children?

 

Edit: Oh wow ninja'd...

Edited June 18, 2014 by WeiryWriter

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

We know that the cognitive realm has a huge impact on the physical, but it mostly has to do with physical properties. I.e. how the Item's cognitive/spiritual parts view itself is manifested in the physical realm. 

 

if Vasher convinced enough people that a fish could talk, it might manifest vocal cords. I would think that speech itself wouldn't come because that would require sapience, but there is probably an outside chance. 

 

Mostly it has to do with physical form than anything else... Returned bodies, Royal locks, Forging and an object's view of itself. We know that there are cognitive elements that play into Allomancy with Bendalloy and Cadmium bubbles as well. 

 

Another good manifestation of cognitive playing into physical is Stormlight healing. Kaladin still has issues related to his slave brands, so those don't heal while his Shardblade wounds do. Dalinar has innumerable scars which have never healed despite his using stormlight to heal for a long time. At the same time Renarin was able to heal his eyesight, and Lopen his arm because the way they viewed themselves was as whole people without those issues.  

 

Edit: Reply to @Kurkistan

 

I believe it's outlined quite clearly in the books what happens.

 

I'm not so sure that it's that clear. Those statements come from Vivienna who was proven a few times to not be knowledgeable about the magics of Awakening and Breaths within the story itself. To me that makes her statements like this to be suspect a little bit. 

 

It was also before we had knowledge that the cognitive aspect effects things as much as it does. 

 

I think based on mass and individual perspective that non-heirs probably can't use the royal locks, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right sDNA or the sliver of the Divine Breath needed. Just not the right mental "gymnastic" muscles to exercise the locks. 

 

if the direct and secondary heirs were killed off and someone knew that they were "4th in line" or whatever, and they were actually a descendant of Vo, then they probably would start to access the Royal Locks, but they would be horrible at controlling them w/o a lifetime of practice!

Edited June 18, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Kurkistan]

I really don't get this tendency of people to assume that, say, convincing people fish have vocal chords would somehow magically give it to them. All these examples of Cognitive shenanigans affecting the world are in terms of how existing magic systems work, not just wishing for it really hard.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I really don't get this tendency of people to assume that, say, convincing people fish have vocal chords would somehow magically give it to them. All these examples of Cognitive shenanigans affecting the world are in terms of how existing magic systems work, not just wishing for it really hard.

 

Well I said, "might". We don't know fully how it all works, and I agree that I don't think it would probably work, but could it? Maybe? 

 

You raise a good point that all cognitive instances impacting the physical are based on/in/around existing magic systems. 

 

Also - I edited my response above to respond to your earlier posts Kurkistan, not sure if you saw that as it as after. 

Edited June 19, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Ibunnuk]

Sorry the fish was a bit of an extreme example but given that the cognitive aspect of something has been stated to be how it is viewed and how it views itself I was just wondering if enough peoples view of something changed then could that change how the thing viewed itself and therefore affect a change in the physical or dies it also require investure to be involved?

[lyht]

I thought for some time it was perception based. I think it is more complicated than that. In any case, it is true that only potential heirs have the ability:

 

 

Brandon:

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It’s not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That’s a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won’t show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

This factoid about the Royal Locks should be one of several hints about the lineage of the Idrian crown. There is something odd about their heritage. 

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-twenty-two/

[Ibunnuk]

Darn it lyht I've read those annotations as well and I really should have remembered that.

[The Rangress]

Going off what Shai said about Forging, I don't think it matters how many people are convinced the fish can talk.

If Vasher convinced the fish it could talk, however...

[Telcontar]

I think that royal locks also have something to do with Breath. I seem to remember that Siri was examined by a priest when she arrived at the Court of Gods. That priest said that she had a very strong Breath. There are other hints about how Breath can be stronger or weaker. The strongest Breath is of course the Returned Breath. The stronger your Breath, the more you'd be able to change about your appearance. Returned can change all of it. Those who are desended from Returned inherit the strength of a Breath, even if it's a "normal" Breath.

 

Of course WoB says it's not genetics, but I think the strength of the Breath is involved somehow.

 

Then. A strong Breath wouldn't automatically mean that you can change your appearance. After all strong Breath only means a stronger spiritual aspect. You also have to make the connection using your cognitive aspect. And that's probably where lineage makes the difference.