Questions on Steel/Ironsight

[Shadeshadow227]

So, steelsight/ironsight can be used to substitute for lost vision, such as with the Inquisitors and Kelsier, and we see that the divide between what constitutes individual objects as valid for steelpushing/ironpulling is somewhat psychological (judging by Wax's ability to split a bullet into the projectile, casing, and primer at the back, then only push on one of those, as well as Marsh and Kelsier both being skilled enough with iron and steel to push and pull on different parts of a single object).

What I'm wondering is, is the sight granted by those metals actually connected to a person's vision, and if so, would being colorblind or blind affect that? Could a blind Coinshot/Lurcher use a similar way of sensing their surroundings to an Inquisitor to substitute for sight? If not, would steelsight manifest differently for someone who is blind, due to the fact that it typically manifests as colored lines, something that a blind person would be unable to perceive (or even lack context for entirely, depending on if they were blind from birth or lost their sight later in life)?

Edited May 6, 2023 by Shadeshadow227

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

So, steelsight/ironsight can be used to substitute for lost vision, such as with the Inquisitors and Kelsier, and we see that the divide between what constitutes individual objects as valid for steelpushing/ironpulling is somewhat psychological (judging by Wax's ability to split a bullet into the projectile, casing, and primer at the back, then only push on one of those, as well as Marsh and Kelsier both being skilled enough with iron and steel to push and pull on different parts of a single object).

What I'm wondering is, is the sight granted by those metals actually connected to a person's vision, and if so, would being colorblind or blind affect that? Could a blind Coinshot/Lurcher use a similar way of sensing their surroundings to an Inquisitor to substitute for sight? If not, would steelsight manifest differently for someone who is blind, due to the fact that it typically manifests as colored lines, something that a blind person would be unable to perceive (or even lack context for entirely, depending on if they were blind from birth or lost their sight later in life)?

It's been postulated that what an Allomancer is "seeing" is really their Connection to nearby metals through their abilities. Here's the WoB discussing it:

Spoiler

Herowannabe

I recently picked up the Mistborn Adventure game and am loving it. I made a character who is a blind Mistborn because hey, I thought it would make for some interesting possibilities. As I understand Allomancy, he can hear/sense well enough to get around with Tin, plus even though he's blind he can still "see" steel lines (like the inquisitors), and I assume Atium would work the same way- that is, he could still "see" Atium shadows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brandon Sanderson

No, you're right. That works. He'd have to burn metals a LOT though. It might warp him a little.

Also, the ability to see more than a single line to the "center" of an object is partly a learned skill, partly Intent. As Scadrians come to understand more of scientific theory, they may find more uses and interactions. WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

Mechanically speaking, how does steelsight work? The scientific definition of "metal" gets a little murky in the middle of the periodic table-

Brandon Sanderson

It does.

Argent

-and we see that powerful enough Allomancers can see more than just metals.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Argent

Are Connection and perception significantly involved here?

Brandon Sanderson

To an extent, but the science of it also is. I feel like the stronger steelsight is getting, the more it is detecting things like electromagnetic bonds and even, you know, the strong and weak force and some of these sorts of things that is just in everything, right? And I do think that in strongest applications, Allomancy is going to be moving beyond metals and moving toward things like fundamental forces. So there you go.

 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

What I'm wondering is, is the sight granted by those metals actually connected to a person's vision, and if so, would being colorblind or blind affect that? Could a blind Coinshot/Lurcher use a similar way of sensing their surroundings to an Inquisitor to substitute for sight?

Yes, that's something that lurchers and coinshots can learn to do:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

By the way, you probably remember form book one the way that Inquisitors see. They have such a subtle touch with Steel and Iron, and their lines, that they can see via the trace metals in everyone's bodies and in the objects around them.

The thing is, any Allomancer with access to iron or steel could learn to do this. Some have figured it out, in the past, but in current times, nobody–at least, nobody the heroes know–is aware of this. Except, of course, for Marsh.

And he chose not to share it.

The Well of Ascension Annotations (Nov. 11, 2007)

 

9 hours ago, Shadeshadow227 said:

If not, would steelsight manifest differently for someone who is blind, due to the fact that it typically manifests as colored lines, something that a blind person would be unable to perceive (or even lack context for entirely, depending on if they were blind from birth or lost their sight later in life)?

Steelsight is more a Spiritual thing than visual, even a blind person could likely see them in great detail, distinguish colors, identify metals etc.

Spoiler

relient23 (paraphrased)

Are the lines that an Allomancer sees when burning iron or steel are in the Physical Realm, the Spiritual Realm, or the Cognitive Realm.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It is more Spiritual Realm than anything.

Shadows of Self Houston signing (Oct. 7, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Titan Arum

Can iron/steelsight lines be used to identify specific metals? If yes, for only savants?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Not just savants.

General Signed Books 2016 (Dec. 23, 2016)

HoA ch 34:

Quote

Marsh raised an eyebrow, scanning the room with his spiked eyes. The way his sight worked, it was hard for him to distinguish colors, but he was familiar enough with his powers now that he could pick them out if he wanted. The Allomantic lines from the metals inside of most things were really quite expressive.
To Marsh, the mansion was a place of pristine whiteness and bright blobs of expensive color.

 

Now the perception of a blind person of himself might cause him some troubles and time to achieve that. If there is a color blind person he might also have a hard time recognizing colors via steelsight if he sees himself as someone that can't see colors. Self-perception might mess them up, but give them enough time and they will learn how to do that.

[cometaryorbit]

Steelsight from spiked eyes is weird.

We know it's something that any Coinshot/Lurcher/Mistborn can theoretically learn, and we see Wax in TLM using steel lines for spatial awareness (though not full "sight") ... but Kelsier's epilogue in TLM shows he has steelsight but not actually Allomancy. So somehow he gets the lines without actually burning the metal.

It kind of sounds like he's getting the super powerful version that can see things other than just metal, too (though Inquisitors can see traces of metal in basically everything, so who knows).

That's really interesting. I don't know how you can steal an ability with Hemalurgy that the original person didn't have (steel lines without burning metals). Unless it has to do with the Spiritual nature of the lines, and the Spiritual nature of Hemalurgy and its wounding/opening of the soul/spiritweb... maybe it's like looking through a gap into the Spiritual?

[Shadeshadow227]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Steelsight from spiked eyes is weird.

We know it's something that any Coinshot/Lurcher/Mistborn can theoretically learn, and we see Wax in TLM using steel lines for spatial awareness (though not full "sight") ... but Kelsier's epilogue in TLM shows he has steelsight but not actually Allomancy. So somehow he gets the lines without actually burning the metal.

It kind of sounds like he's getting the super powerful version that can see things other than just metal, too (though Inquisitors can see traces of metal in basically everything, so who knows).

That's really interesting. I don't know how you can steal an ability with Hemalurgy that the original person didn't have (steel lines without burning metals). Unless it has to do with the Spiritual nature of the lines, and the Spiritual nature of Hemalurgy and its wounding/opening of the soul/spiritweb... maybe it's like looking through a gap into the Spiritual?

That seems pretty likely, since the bindpoints line up and Kelsier's not really a typical user of Hemalurgy. IIRC, Kelsier's basically a cognitive shadow stapled to his own bones and what's probably a mistwraith for the fleshy bits. He didn't really take anything from anyone, cognitive shadows are investiture, he just had someone use hemalurgy to steal him and plug him into a body, which is...wild.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Steelsight from spiked eyes is weird.

We know it's something that any Coinshot/Lurcher/Mistborn can theoretically learn, and we see Wax in TLM using steel lines for spatial awareness (though not full "sight") ... but Kelsier's epilogue in TLM shows he has steelsight but not actually Allomancy. So somehow he gets the lines without actually burning the metal.

It kind of sounds like he's getting the super powerful version that can see things other than just metal, too (though Inquisitors can see traces of metal in basically everything, so who knows).

That's really interesting. I don't know how you can steal an ability with Hemalurgy that the original person didn't have (steel lines without burning metals). Unless it has to do with the Spiritual nature of the lines, and the Spiritual nature of Hemalurgy and its wounding/opening of the soul/spiritweb... maybe it's like looking through a gap into the Spiritual?

Yeah, I think by the nature of Hemalurgy, a spike in the eye replaces the eye with a steelsight (if the spike is from iron or steel) and it doesn't matter if it's empty if there was the right intent present. Every spike changes the body, spikes in eyes twist the body and brain around them to accommodate them - it twists and cracks the soul in those places. Your explanation sounds possible, by having cracks in the eyes, with metal made of iron/steel acting like a filter, you can see connections in the Spiritual Realm, your eye is looking through the Spiritual Realm into the Physical Realm. Or something like that.

[cometaryorbit]

I don't really think you could do it with an actually empty  spike though? If its empty it's just a piece of metal not a Hemalurgic spike.

For what Kelsier is doing it may not matter what the spike stole, but I think it still needs to be a Hemalurgic spike Invested with something.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't really think you could do it with an actually empty  spike though? If its empty it's just a piece of metal not a Hemalurgic spike.

For what Kelsier is doing it may not matter what the spike stole, but I think it still needs to be a Hemalurgic spike Invested with something

Intent matters. It really looks like Kel's spike is empty, as he has no powers from it, and it only stamples his soul back to the body. I think Kelsier's soul is the invested charge of the spike, but not in the normal sense, his soul was dragged by the spike and place into the hole made in the body's soul. 

[Treamayne]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Intent matters. It really looks like Kel's spike is empty,

I don't think we actually know it is empty - only that he does not derive Metallic abilities from it. Koloss Spikes are charged with only human attributes. We don;t know for sure what charge is help by a Kandra Blessing (possibly just a human charge - no Allomancy or Ferchemy).

Kell's spike almost has to be Hemalurgically charged, we just don't know what charge that may be.

[Voidmaker]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Koloss Spikes are charged with only human attributes. We don;t know for sure what charge is help by a Kandra Blessing (possibly just a human charge - no Allomancy or Ferchemy).

I don't know where the information itself came from, but the Hemalurgy page on the Coppermind states that we DO know what charges are in the Kandra Blessings and Koloss Spikes. Koloss are created with four Iron Spikes (Human Attribute - Strength) and the Kandra Blessings vary, but are known.

Potency - Iron (Strength)
Awareness - Tin (Senses)
Presence - Zinc (Emotional Fortitude)
Stability - Copper (Intelligence/Mental Fortitude/Memory)

All involve human attributes. Most Kandra have two Spikes of the same attribute to make up a Blessing. The Hemalurgy page also states that one Spike will work, but will cause 'erratic behavior'. 

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Kell's spike almost has to be Hemalurgically charged, we just don't know what charge that may be.

Indeed. We can speculate, though, using the Hemalurgy Chart (on the Hemalurgy Coppermind page). Duralumin steals Connection, which could Connect him to the Physical Realm. None of the others really seem to make sense, so that's been my (unproven) headcanon for a while now. Either way, I'd recommend checking out the Hemalurgy Page on the Coppermind for proof of what I've said- and also you might learn something else or see something I missed. Did you know there are between 200 and 300 Bind Points in the human body? I sure didn't for quite awhile 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Voidwatcher
capitalization

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

I don't know where the information itself came from, but the Hemalurgy page on the Coppermind states that we DO know what charges are in the Kandra Blessings and Koloss Spikes. Koloss are created with four Iron Spikes (Human Attribute - Strength) and the Kandra Blessings vary, but are known.

Potency - Iron (Strength)
Awareness - Tin (Senses)
Presence - Zinc (Emotional Fortitude)
Stability - Copper (Intelligence/Mental Fortitude/Memory)

All involve human attributes.

I knew that we had the spike metals, but I hadn't realized it was confirmed which human attriute was taken with each type of spike. Thank you. 

Quote

Did you know there are between 200 and 300 Bind Points in the human body? 

Pretty sure they were based on the Acupuncture Meridians (though I don't think that has been confirmed).

Spoiler

When I was teaching martial arts, I used The Main Meridians book as my reference for myself and students to discuss pressure points, health applications and martial applications. It's rather in-depth (maybe too much for a new student) and quite comprehensive. Expensive, but a good resource if you like that kind of thing.  

[Voidmaker]

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I knew that we had the spike metals, but I hadn't realized it was confirmed which human attriute was taken with each type of spike. Thank you. 

Happy to help! 

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Pretty sure they were based on the Acupuncture Meridians (though I don't think that has been confirmed).

  Reveal hidden contents

Ooh. Never really looked into acupuncture. Wonder if somebody will ever accidentally discover Hemalurgy on a distant planet by a simple acupuncture mishap 
Maybe they could, if it wasn't for lousy Intent 

8 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

When I was teaching martial arts, I used The Main Meridians book as my reference for myself and students to discuss pressure points, health applications and martial applications. It's rather in-depth (maybe too much for a new student) and quite comprehensive. Expensive, but a good resource if you like that kind of thing.  

YOU TAUGHT MARTIAL ARTS?????? 
Besides that, that's very interesting! I'm not sure if I'll commit just yet, but I might check out some other minor resources relating to it, before going for the big-money resource. Thanks!

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

YOU TAUGHT MARTIAL ARTS?

Well, technically assistant instructor while I was stationed at Kadena (Okinawa, Japan). I've studied a few arts off-and-on since 1983; but, in this case, I was taking classes in Tai Chi and Kung Fu on-base, and as classes grew I was asked to help lead class and teach the newer students so the Sifu could focus on the more advanced students. 

7 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

that's very interesting! I'm not sure if I'll commit just yet, but I might check out some other minor resources

Just be careful, there is an awful lot of bad information out there too. I'll update when I am at home. 

Trivia:

Spoiler

The (probable) science behind much of the Meridians is based on Spinal Junctions - which is why, for example, the Stomach Meridian extends to the foot. The nerve(s) servicing that meridian enter the spine at the same vertebral junction as the nerves controlling the stomach (hence the name and why that meridian is "connected" to that organ.

 Example. generally an anotomic male being hit in the groin will feel it in their gut. Meridians tell us it is because the pressure point being struck there is a Stomach point - entering the spine at the same junction which allows the "stimulus" to jump to nerves entering at the same junction - so a pain in one area is also felt in a different area.