A Concerning Note on Mistwraiths

[Koloss17]

To preface, I apologize for absolutely swarming the Mistborn forum with my own posts! I just really like Scadrial .

So I was in initially going to make a post about the potential to have a pet Mistwraith and selective body part building of Mistwraiths to turn them into a cute cat or something. But it turns out that there’s already a wob on it.

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NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

And getting to the end of it, there’s this:

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Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

Now, this is 2012, and things could have most definitely changed, but Oh My Preservation and Ruin above.

 

Now, 2012 Brandon was not all that specific, and I don’t know if he meant like-someone on the Autism spectrum, or someone with Down Syndrome, or someone with really severe Dementia, but (pretty much) no matter what, these little blobby fellas are human. They are complex individuals that have been shunned from society, and are reduced to eating corpses their whole immortal life. That is really messed up, if you ask me. I mean, wow.

Does that mean we might get a Mistwraith POV in the future?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

To preface, I apologize for absolutely swarming the Mistborn forum with my own posts! I just really like Scadrial .

So I was in initially going to make a post about the potential to have a pet Mistwraith and selective body part building of Mistwraiths to turn them into a cute cat or something. But it turns out that there’s already a wob on it.

And getting to the end of it, there’s this:

Now, this is 2012, and things could have most definitely changed, but Oh My Preservation and Ruin above.

 

Now, 2012 Brandon was not all that specific, and I don’t know if he meant like-someone on the Autism spectrum, or someone with Down Syndrome, or someone with really severe Dementia, but (pretty much) no matter what, these little blobby fellas are human. They are complex individuals that have been shunned from society, and are reduced to eating corpses their whole immortal life. That is really messed up, if you ask me. I mean, wow.

Does that mean we might get a Mistwraith POV in the future?

We already have one, no? We see MeLaan's perspective as a Mistwraith after her spikes are removed in BoM, where she knows that something is horribly wrong with her, but she doesn't have the mental capacity to figure out what, and she's reduced to the base urges of "Hide and eat"

Edit: Mistwraiths aren't immortal by the way, they had a lifespan of about 50 years during Era 1

Edit 2: Not two seconds after I made the previous edit, it was made redundant 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Quantus]

7 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

To preface, I apologize for absolutely swarming the Mistborn forum with my own posts! I just really like Scadrial .

So I was in initially going to make a post about the potential to have a pet Mistwraith and selective body part building of Mistwraiths to turn them into a cute cat or something. But it turns out that there’s already a wob on it.

And getting to the end of it, there’s this:

Now, this is 2012, and things could have most definitely changed, but Oh My Preservation and Ruin above.

 

Now, 2012 Brandon was not all that specific, and I don’t know if he meant like-someone on the Autism spectrum, or someone with Down Syndrome, or someone with really severe Dementia, but (pretty much) no matter what, these little blobby fellas are human. They are complex individuals that have been shunned from society, and are reduced to eating corpses their whole immortal life. That is really messed up, if you ask me. I mean, wow.

Does that mean we might get a Mistwraith POV in the future?

If it makes you feel better, they dont get stuck that way forever, Mistwraiths live about 50 years but can reproduce.  They only become immortal if (and while) they get Blessing Spikes.

 

 

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eighty - Part Two

Sazed Sees Mistwraiths

I worry that I didn't get to show mistwraiths very much in this book. It's not that big of an issue—they're only a minor world feature, and are only tangentially important. Still, they're a part of the kandra past and culture, and I want readers to understand what they are and what they have to do with the kandra life cycle.

Remember, all of the kandra save for the First Generation were born first as mistwraiths. That race of creatures breeds true, and has only a fifty-year lifespan. They die off, but birth new members. Taking one of those new members and adding spikes to them, however, awakens them and brings them sentience. They're part human, just like the koloss who remember having once been human.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 27, 2010)

 

 

[mip67]

37 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

To preface, I apologize for absolutely swarming the Mistborn forum with my own posts! I just really like Scadrial .

Nah, it's good, half of the 17th shard is dead anyways (rithmatist forum could really use some love)

[Koloss17]

36 minutes ago, mip67 said:

Nah, it's good, half of the 17th shard is dead anyways (rithmatist forum could really use some love)

Sadly, it’s often like that. Non-Cosmere works don’t get a lot of love, often due to lack of fans and lack of theories.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

To preface, I apologize for absolutely swarming the Mistborn forum with my own posts! I just really like Scadrial .

Who would have thought Koloss likes Scadrial?  

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Now, 2012 Brandon was not all that specific, and I don’t know if he meant like-someone on the Autism spectrum, or someone with Down Syndrome, or someone with really severe Dementia, but (pretty much) no matter what, these little blobby fellas are human. They are complex individuals that have been shunned from society, and are reduced to eating corpses their whole immortal life. That is really messed up, if you ask me. I mean, wow.

They have a magical blockade in their mind, and when they overcome it with help of Blessings, they become Kandra. Each of them have a potential to become a fully capable, almost immortal Kandra, but their stuck in a mindless form.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

This sounds very similar to a Slaveform of Parhsendi. Their mind was blocked, and they were stuck in this clouded form because somebody ripped away their connection.

Now if you think that using Mistwraiths as pets is ethically dubious, what do you think about Sazed actively denying them even the possibility of achieving full mental capabilities by granting them new Hemalurgic Blessings? Which is worse, killing one group of people to give another group of people full mental awareness, or keeping them permanently mentally disabled, but saving people from death by spiking? Is there even a good choice to be made here?

[mip67]

Well, that's sort of the same thing as with animals. Animals can be spiked hemalurgically, as such, you could use a copper spike in order to give them intelligence, but we don't. I think it's entirely ethically clear that we shouldn't. That mindless state is the natural state, and as such I think it's perfectly fine to keep mistwraiths as mistwraiths. However, I could see the argument that they are aware something is wrong, and so it isn't the same thing.

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, mip67 said:

Nah, it's good, half of the 17th shard is dead anyways (rithmatist forum could really use some love)

That's a floodgate that doesn't need to get opened until we see The Aztlanian. Hopefully.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

11 hours ago, alder24 said:

Now if you think that using Mistwraiths as pets is ethically dubious, what do you think about Sazed actively denying them even the possibility of achieving full mental capabilities by granting them new Hemalurgic Blessings? Which is worse, killing one group of people to give another group of people full mental awareness, or keeping them permanently mentally disabled, but saving people from death by spiking? Is there even a good choice to be made here?

I think really the only way you could do that is through executions, or maybe donations from the terminally ill. The Mistwraiths have existed the way they have for a long time, so I think ethically it's fine to leave them as they are, but if it's possible to help one become a Kandra (through donated or execution spikes) then it should be done

[Treamayne]

14 hours ago, mip67 said:

Nah, it's good, half of the 17th shard is dead anyways (Rithmatist forum could really use some love)

Yeah. I posted a new theory there in March, and it's had a few views, but no replies in the six weeks it's been posted.

15 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Now, 2012 Brandon was not all that specific, and I don’t know if he meant like-someone on the Autism spectrum, or someone with Down Syndrome, or someone with really severe Dementia, but (pretty much) no matter what, these little blobby fellas are human. They are complex individuals that have been shunned from society, and are reduced to eating corpses their whole immortal life. That is really messed up, if you ask me. I mean, wow.

Keep in mind that is also about Mistwraiths in Era 1, we still don't know what exactly (if anything) Sazed did to/with them during the Catacendre; just like we still don't know exactly how Blessing spikes differ from normal Hemalurgic spikes.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Treamayne

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

Now that I think about it, Could Sazed have not turned the Mistwraiths back into humans again? Like he should've reverted at least some of them, enough to restore their sentience but still leaving enough Mistwraiths that they wouldn't die out. Come to think of it, could he already have done that? We see no mention of them anywhere in the Wax and Wayne books, and he didn't exactly intend to make more Kandra

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Now that I think about it, Could Sazed have not turned the Mistwraiths back into humans again? Like he should've reverted at least some of them, enough to restore their sentience but still leaving enough Mistwraiths that they wouldn't die out. Come to think of it, could he already have done that? We see no mention of them anywhere in the Wax and Wayne books, and he didn't exactly intend to make more Kandra

Doubtful. Even if they could be restored to the human form, they lived for 1000 years as animals, developing animal instincts unique to their species. Human former-Mistwraiths would have a very hard time to adapt to a permanent human form, as everything in their mind would want to change form, hide during days and behave like Mistwraiths. Plus Sazed has a sentiment to preserve cultures and stuff, he would want Kandra “kids” and this unique species to be preserved.

But I don't think many of them survived Catacendre. Vin messed up the planet hard, changing the day-night cycle, and cleaning the ash in the air. Many Mistwraiths who weren't hiding underground when the sun came up would burn instantly as the temperature was hot enough to self-ignite living trees.

But we have a mention of Mistwraiths post-Catacendre in this WoB, I think they still live in the same form they had during the Final Empire - just not in the middle of the Elendel City, where all action took place. 

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

[Koloss17]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Doubtful. Even if they could be restored to the human form, they lived for 1000 years as animals, developing animal instincts unique to their species. Human former-Mistwraiths would have a very hard time to adapt to a permanent human form, as everything in their mind would want to change form, hide during days and behave like Mistwraiths. Plus Sazed has a sentiment to preserve cultures and stuff, he would want Kandra “kids” and this unique species to be preserved.

But I don't think many of them survived Catacendre. Vin messed up the planet hard, changing the day-night cycle, and cleaning the ash in the air. Many Mistwraiths who weren't hiding underground when the sun came up would burn instantly as the temperature was hot enough to self-ignite living trees.

 

So…are you arguing that Mistwraith pets are still on the menu?

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

So…are you arguing that Mistwraith pets are still on the menu?

"Pets on the menu" right, let's say yes to that.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

If keeping one as a pet makes it's standard of living better, then I suppose there's nothing wrong it in

[cometaryorbit]

Marasi claims mistwraiths are thought to be extinct by scientists. They at least don't seem to be around in Era 2.

And I absolutely think Sazed should have turned them back to humans.