Aluminum Lined Metalminds

[Trusk'our]

One of the weaknesses of Feruchemy in combat on Scadrial is that your Metalminds are ussually at least somewhat susceptible to being Allomantically pushed or pulled on.

However, we've seen that aluminum lined bags or aluminum canteens can make Allomancer's metals immune to being touched, so what if a Feruchemist did the same? Could they coat the outside of a Metalmind bracer or braclet with aluminum, but leave the inside strip (the one that touches their skin) unlined so as to make it immune to Steelpushing and Ironpulling?

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

One of the weaknesses of Feruchemy in combat on Scadrial is that your Metalminds are ussually at least somewhat susceptible to being Allomantically pushed or pulled on.

However, we've seen that aluminum lined bags or aluminum canteens can make Allomancer's metals immune to being touched, so what if a Feruchemist did the same? Could they coat the outside of a Metalmind bracer or braclet with aluminum, but leave the inside strip (the one that touches their skin) unlined so as to make it immune to Steelpushing and Ironpulling?

I believe so. But technically Mistborn would be able to pull the bracelet on the opposite side of Feruchemist arm by the side that is not touching his skin, so that doesn't really change anything. Do like Rashek, coat whole metalmind inside and outside in aluminum, with a spike piercing your skin, which is uncoated in your body. Or you know, just piercing your body with metalminds makes them mostly immune to Allomancy. No aluminum needed.

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I believe so. But technically Mistborn would be able to pull the bracelet on the opposite side of Feruchemist arm by the side that is not touching his skin, so that doesn't really change anything. Do like Rashek, coat whole metalmind inside and outside in aluminum, with a spike piercing your skin, which is uncoated in your body. Or you know, just piercing your body with metalminds makes them mostly immune to Allomancy. No aluminum needed.

Yeah, pulling on the opposite side probably would negate the whole purpose of the aluminum, since it isn't in close enough proximity to the Feruchemist's Spiritweb to be influenced by their Investiture.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

I believe so. But technically Mistborn would be able to pull the bracelet on the opposite side of Feruchemist arm by the side that is not touching his skin, so that doesn't really change anything. Do like Rashek, coat whole metalmind inside and outside in aluminum, with a spike piercing your skin, which is uncoated in your body. Or you know, just piercing your body with metalminds makes them mostly immune to Allomancy. No aluminum needed.

Brandon said that the effects of Aluminium generally happen in a field around it, so if the entire outside is covered in Aluminium, and I imagine pulling on the opposite side would require pulling/pushing it through the Aluminium facing you, and the effects take place in a small field around it anyway, so should it not still work? Metal even a little inside you makes the entire thing practically inert, so being mostly covered in Aluminium should work also, right? If the 'field of effect' effect doesn't apply to Steelpushing/Ironpulling, then you'd still have to be a little higher or lower than the Ferring to affect their Metalmind. Alternatively, what if you cover the entire Metalmind in Aluminium except for a few key spots where it can touch your skin? That seems much more effective.

[Trusk'our]

40 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Brandon said that the effects of Aluminium generally happen in a field around it, so if the entire outside is covered in Aluminium, and I imagine pulling on the opposite side would require pulling/pushing it through the Aluminium facing you, and the effects take place in a small field around it anyway, so should it not still work? Metal even a little inside you makes the entire thing practically inert, so being mostly covered in Aluminium should work also, right? If the 'field of effect' effect doesn't apply to Steelpushing/Ironpulling, then you'd still have to be a little higher or lower than the Ferring to affect their Metalmind.

If it's a field effect for All Investiture and not just Emotional Allomancy, yeah, then it may still work.

41 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 Alternatively, what if you cover the entire Metalmind in Aluminium except for a few key spots where it can touch your skin? That seems much more effective.

Covering it with more aluminum makes it less susceptible, so I think that would work to improve it.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Brandon said that the effects of Aluminium generally happen in a field around it, so if the entire outside is covered in Aluminium, and I imagine pulling on the opposite side would require pulling/pushing it through the Aluminium facing you, and the effects take place in a small field around it anyway, so should it not still work? Metal even a little inside you makes the entire thing practically inert, so being mostly covered in Aluminium should work also, right? If the 'field of effect' effect doesn't apply to Steelpushing/Ironpulling, then you'd still have to be a little higher or lower than the Ferring to affect their Metalmind. Alternatively, what if you cover the entire Metalmind in Aluminium except for a few key spots where it can touch your skin? That seems much more effective.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

If it's a field effect for All Investiture and not just Emotional Allomancy, yeah, then it may still work.

It might also be the case of perception - Mistborn who sees metalminds covered with aluminum as a single object won't be able to pull/push on them, but if he's skillful enough to perceive it as many different parts combined together (like when spinning a metal bar), then he can differentiate between aluminum covered part and non aluminum covered one, and pull/push on them.

Spoiler

Kyrroti

If I were burning iron, where would the line point to on a steel hula-hoop?

Brandon Sanderson

For something like that, it would depend on the Steelpusher's power. For some, it would just be pointing generally toward the center of the hoop--but for skilled Steelpushers, they'd be able to see softer lines pointing in all directions around the hoop.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

But I've found the answer. It depends on how thick is aluminum - with a very thick layer (thicker than a gun barrel), a Mistborn would still be able to push/pull uncovered parts of metalminds:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Allomancy, aluminum won't be able to be pushed or pulled, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Questioner

So if you put a piece of steel like a gun barrel, and then you surround it with aluminum, can you still push the gun barrel?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum will add some interference, it's gonna depend on how thick the aluminum is. It's probably unfeasible. That is a viable concept, I don't think it's feasible on a gun barrel.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

[Trusk'our]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It might also be the case of perception - Mistborn who sees metalminds covered with aluminum as a single object won't be able to pull/push on them, but if he's skillful enough to perceive it as many different parts combined together (like when spinning a metal bar), then he can differentiate between aluminum covered part and non aluminum covered one, and pull/push on them.

  Hide contents

Kyrroti

If I were burning iron, where would the line point to on a steel hula-hoop?

Brandon Sanderson

For something like that, it would depend on the Steelpusher's power. For some, it would just be pointing generally toward the center of the hoop--but for skilled Steelpushers, they'd be able to see softer lines pointing in all directions around the hoop.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

But I've found the answer. It depends on how thick is aluminum - with a very thick layer (thicker than a gun barrel), a Mistborn would still be able to push/pull uncovered parts of metalminds:

  Hide contents

Questioner

In Allomancy, aluminum won't be able to be pushed or pulled, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Questioner

So if you put a piece of steel like a gun barrel, and then you surround it with aluminum, can you still push the gun barrel?

Brandon Sanderson

The aluminum will add some interference, it's gonna depend on how thick the aluminum is. It's probably unfeasible. That is a viable concept, I don't think it's feasible on a gun barrel.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

Interesting. I suppose that makes sense, given the WoB about aluminum-lined hats.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10821

Jozomby

I’m wondering about the idea that you can block emotional Allomancy with an aluminum lined hat.

Brandon Sanderson

Yup.

Jozomby

Okay.  So I’m wondering how much aluminum is required.  So like, an aluminum colander, versus an aluminum headband, versus…

Brandon Sanderson

Right.  Alright.  So, I’ll be honest with you.  The idea of a tinfoil hat was so intriguing to me, basically, that I made sure this was part of the magic system.  I say it has to be tinfoil, at least. Thicker is probably better, the way these things work. I’ll try not to do spoilers.  When Hoid lets somebody use aluminum to block signals, he was going with something that you would be able to bend a little bit by pulling on it, but wouldn’t be able to fold it down.  I’d put a bare minimum, if you want to be extra sure, on that, but lining your hat with tinfoil is viable. Particularly in the later eras of Mistborn, when some of the powers are decreasing.

Also, here's the WoB about the effects of aluminum not being line-of-sight strictly.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/73/#e4302

Questioner

Is aluminum shielding from emotional Allomancy strictly line of sight? So, can someone in the basement bypass somebody’s aluminum hat on the first floor

Brandon Sanderson

No, they could not. You just put enough aluminum there and it disrupts.

Questioner

So it disrupts like a field.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

This also probably means that a Kandra couldn't become immune to being controlled by using aluminum, though it would add some resistance.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

But I've found the answer. It depends on how thick is aluminum - with a very thick layer (thicker than a gun barrel), a Mistborn would still be able to push/pull uncovered parts of metalminds

I think you're misunderstanding Brandon there. He's talking about surrounding a very big source of metal, a gun barrel, with Aluminium (I just realised us british people spell and say Aluminium differently, Aluminum vs Aluminium, how weird) and Brandon answers that you could stop it that way, its just that a large source of metal like a gun barrel would require an impractical amount of Aluminium (impractical in that it would interfere with the Gun's machinery) covering to make it unaffectable. For something like a Metalmind, especially a small one, you'd need to cover it in quite a lot of Aluminium, but it is possible to make it inert that way.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think you're misunderstanding Brandon there. He's talking about surrounding a very big source of metal, a gun barrel, with Aluminium (I just realised us british people spell and say Aluminium differently, Aluminum vs Aluminium, how weird) and Brandon answers that you could stop it that way, its just that a large source of metal like a gun barrel would require an impractical amount of Aluminium (impractical in that it would interfere with the Gun's machinery) covering to make it unaffectable. For something like a Metalmind, especially a small one, you'd need to cover it in quite a lot of Aluminium, but it is possible to make it inert that way.

That's how I understood it. It will work, but you need a lot of it which would make it very impractical. It's easier to just piece your skin with your metalminds (or in case of WoB have a fully aluminum gun).

I think aluminum is mostly a US thing, while the rest of the world says aluminium. In Polish it's aluminium as well, thanks to you guys i nearly forgot about it  

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

That's how I understood it. It will work, but you need a lot of it which would make it very impractical. It's easier to just piece your skin with your metalminds (or in case of WoB have a fully aluminum gun).

Aluminium is light, and it's about to become very cheap, so I think as of Era 2 it's better to pierce your skin, but eventually you might as well just wrap your metalminds in several sheets of Aluminium, poke a hole in it, and be done with it.

And you speak Polish? That's so cool

[HSuperLee]

I wonder if at some point, technologically speaking, it would be easier to have a layer of some kind of aluminum mesh or netting inside of clothing. Not only would it protect the metalminds, but it would also protect the wearer from most direct magics. Yeah, it would stop coinshots from being able to push or pull, but there are probably designs that could compensate for that. If nothing else, you could have the mesh around the upper arms only and then have metalmind bracers underneath that. 

[alder24]

Just now, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Aluminium is light, and it's about to become very cheap, so I think as of Era 2 it's better to pierce your skin, but eventually you might as well just wrap your metalminds in several sheets of Aluminium, poke a hole in it, and be done with it.

1 minute ago, HSuperLee said:

I wonder if at some point, technologically speaking, it would be easier to have a layer of some kind of aluminum mesh or netting inside of clothing. Not only would it protect the metalminds, but it would also protect the wearer from most direct magics. Yeah, it would stop coinshots from being able to push or pull, but there are probably designs that could compensate for that. If nothing else, you could have the mesh around the upper arms only and then have metalmind bracers underneath that. 

Or, you know, just put them fully inside your body. If you need a big metalmind you can just replace your bone with it.

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

They all did it in TLM, both Wax and Wayne and Anti-Wayne. Just put their metalminds inside their bodies. And Wax put an iron bar in his body, which is not a good idea, because iron rusts, but it's likely that just like Allomancers (well, Wax is an Allomancer), Feruchemists are immune to those kinds of effects of metals inside their body:

Spoiler

rederel

Now i'm morbidly curious whether u/mistborn has considered it [cadmium poisoning] while writing his books.

Brandon Sanderson

I have, actually. Though I had to consider it for other metals first. I decided that allomancers are immune to these kinds of effects--they're just physiologically different in that regard.

General Reddit 2021 (June 11, 2021)

 

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Or, you know, just put them fully inside your body. If you need a big metalmind you can just replace your bone with it.

TLM spoilers:

  Hide contents

They all did it in TLM, both Wax and Wayne and Anti-Wayne. Just put their metalminds inside their bodies. And Wax put an iron bar in his body, which is not a good idea, because iron rusts, but it's likely that just like Allomancers (well, Wax is an Allomancer), Feruchemists are immune to those kinds of effects of metals inside their body:

  Hide contents

rederel

Now i'm morbidly curious whether u/mistborn has considered it [cadmium poisoning] while writing his books.

Brandon Sanderson

I have, actually. Though I had to consider it for other metals first. I decided that allomancers are immune to these kinds of effects--they're just physiologically different in that regard.

General Reddit 2021 (June 11, 2021)

 

 

Not everyone can afford to have a Metalmind surgically inserted into their body, and you really don't want to do it yourself. Even just a Metalmind with a small part that pierces your skin, you run the risk of infection, perhaps multiple times. For Era 2 sure, but soon that'll just be an unnecessary expenditure.

31 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I wonder if at some point, technologically speaking, it would be easier to have a layer of some kind of aluminum mesh or netting inside of clothing. Not only would it protect the metalminds, but it would also protect the wearer from most direct magics. Yeah, it would stop coinshots from being able to push or pull, but there are probably designs that could compensate for that. If nothing else, you could have the mesh around the upper arms only and then have metalmind bracers underneath that. 

That's a good idea, but the amount of Aluminium in a mesh just doesn't make enough of a difference Allomantically to be worth it.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

I wonder if at some point, technologically speaking, it would be easier to have a layer of some kind of aluminum mesh or netting inside of clothing. Not only would it protect the metalminds, but it would also protect the wearer from most direct magics. Yeah, it would stop coinshots from being able to push or pull, but there are probably designs that could compensate for that. If nothing else, you could have the mesh around the upper arms only and then have metalmind bracers underneath that. 

That sounds like an interesting idea. It should work, as far as I can tell.

Though yeah, a Coinshot or Lurcher isn't going to want a full aluminum-threaded shirt, or it would interfere with their pushes or pulls.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or, you know, just put them fully inside your body. If you need a big metalmind you can just replace your bone with it.

That's definitely an option, but most people I think would hesitate to implement it. Plus, it costs a lot to get that kind of surgery.

Also, I don't think that deliberately replacing parts of your skeleton with metal would be healthy; you need it to produce new blood cells, so even if Metalborn don't get metal poisoning, it's probably not a great idea for overall health. Maybe smaller implants/replacements would be acceptable though.

[Aetherbound]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If it's a field effect for All Investiture and not just Emotional Allomancy, yeah, then it may still work.

It's not always a field (RoW)

Spoiler

The fourth bridge works by using aluminum to block just one direction of movement

 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

7 hours ago, Aetherbound said:

 

  Hide contents

The fourth bridge works by using aluminum to block just one direction of movement

 

SA Spoilers

Spoiler

The Fourth Bridge runs on Fabrials, which are programmed through metal cages around a gemstone touching them in different places and at different times to influence them and the effect they cause, so they're something of an exception since as a magic system they require a very specific form of input. 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

That's definitely an option, but most people I think would hesitate to implement it. Plus, it costs a lot to get that kind of surgery.

Also, I don't think that deliberately replacing parts of your skeleton with metal would be healthy; you need it to produce new blood cells, so even if Metalborn don't get metal poisoning, it's probably not a great idea for overall health. Maybe smaller implants/replacements would be acceptable though.

Let's not exaggerate. Not every bone. Few bone replacements wouldn’t harm you in any way - it's no different than prosthetics nowadays.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

The Fourth Bridge runs on Fabrials, which are programmed through metal cages around a gemstone touching them in different places and at different times to influence them and the effect they cause, so they're something of an exception since as a magic system they require a very specific form of input. 

Please, keep in mind that we're on the Mistborn forum, that's why when writing about non-Mistborn books, or answering to somebody about other Cosmere works, like in this case SA, put a spoiler box and inform before it which books are you talking about inside that box. It's to avoid spoiling books for people who haven't read all of Cosmere yet.

Edit:

7 hours ago, Aetherbound said:

It's not always a field (RoW)

  Hide contents

The fourth bridge works by using aluminum to block just one direction of movement

 

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, but also fabrials do things like this:

Spoiler

ParshendiOfRhuidean

If an [attractor] fabrial is blocked by aluminum in a certain direction, will the attraction bend around the aluminum or does it work purely off line of sight?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh man... *mumbling* *sigh* All right. This could bend around aluminum. I believe. So. CAN bend around aluminum. Which would allow you to do some cool things. Yeah. That is, I believe... the aluminum is going to set up a big patch of... an interference pattern. Like, imagine it's going to make a shadow. How about that. That's a really good example. It'll bend around the corners like light is going to bend around a corner to a similar extent. Hopefully that helps in your theorizing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by alder24

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

Let's not exaggerate. Not every bone. Few bone replacements wouldn’t harm you in any way - it's no different than prosthetics nowadays.

Yeah, so long as you don't take away too much of the original bone it would probably be safe.

8 hours ago, alder24 said:

SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

Yes, but also fabrials do things like this:

  Hide contents

ParshendiOfRhuidean

If an [attractor] fabrial is blocked by aluminum in a certain direction, will the attraction bend around the aluminum or does it work purely off line of sight?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh man... *mumbling* *sigh* All right. This could bend around aluminum. I believe. So. CAN bend around aluminum. Which would allow you to do some cool things. Yeah. That is, I believe... the aluminum is going to set up a big patch of... an interference pattern. Like, imagine it's going to make a shadow. How about that. That's a really good example. It'll bend around the corners like light is going to bend around a corner to a similar extent. Hopefully that helps in your theorizing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

 

Intriguing. I don't know whether that hints towards aluminum being a field effect or not, but still very interesting.