Spren, Seons, and Awakened objects

[WardenGiggles]

First let me start by saying that every time I try to research and read up on the Cosmere I remind myself that I'm not smart enough to have a clue what's going on. It's like finding myself down a rabbit hole but not knowing what a rabbit is.

 

I've looked through the forums and not seen any discussion of this, and that may be because it's fairly obvious, or maybe because I'm not search for the right things.

 

If Spren can bond with people and are cognitive beings from Shadesmar, and Seons bond with people (though differently than Spren do), are the Seons also cognitive beings from Shadesmar? What about Awakened objects? Vasher apologizes to objects when he takes his breath back. Is Awakening an object pulling the consciousness of a spren type being from Shadesmar into the object?

 

Or is the similarity I'm seeing because Spren and Seons are both splinters (I think I read that somewhere)

[A Joe in the Bush]

Yes, Per a WoB somewhere, Seons and Spren are both Splinters. Awakened objects could be considered splinters, because the Breath is a Splinter. I think. Give me a Moment to find the WoB.

 

EDIT: Source #8, 9 and 19 They're similair, and we know that Spren are Splinters of Adonalsium

 

 

Tortellini

My next question was a random idea I had based on the answer about entities living primarily in the cognitive realm given here. I asked (stupidly, you'll see why in a second): "Could it be that spren and seons are basically very similar things?"

Brandon Sanderson

He smiled, thought about how to answer that for a second and then said... "Yes, it could be."

TORTELLINI

I very much got the impression that I was correct though, but I gave him the perfect opening to appreciate the question without answering it at all. Stupid me. I explained that I had the idea that seons exist primarily as cognitive entities with smaller presences in the physical world, while spren are primarily spiritual, also with smaller presences in the physical world. He just smiled for a second, and I said I'd take that as a possible yes and let him get back to signing books for the awesome Waterstone's in Manchester. I'm writing up my thoughts on that in this post.

 

 

Andrea Digney

Was Honor Splintered?

Brandon Sanderson

Was Honor Splintered? ooh someone's been paying attention, very much. I would say that yes Honor was Splintered. That is a very important question to be asking, someone really knows their stuff.

 

<Words> Brandon Sanderson

They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2014 by Hello. My name is Joe

[PorridgeBrick]

You're right on the money here. Spren, Seons/Skaze, and Awakened objects are all the same sort of thing, Transformative Cognitive Entities if you want to sound fancy like the Ars Arcanum author. Realmatically, they've all got a similar composition: a Cognitive idea/Intent (the Fire in firespren, or the Command in the case of Awakened objects) given life through a Splinter of Investiture (like Breaths and the Dor). These can be bound to physical objects as in fabrials and Awakened objects, form bonds with humans, grant powers, etc.

Quote dump here, since adding quotes everywhere makes me seem so much smarter.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Objects with almost sentient behavior like Nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the spren from The Way of Kings. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books.

QUESTION

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

QUESTION

If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal.

QUESTION

Is the bond between a Seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Q: Could a Seon, or a Skaze, could they turn into a, some sort of Shardblade on their own planet?

A: That is theoretically possible. It's—I mean they work under the same fundamentals, but they would need to have something to pull them more into the physical realm.

Q: If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

A: It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

Edited June 13, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[WardenGiggles]

Several of those WoB I'd seen, but I hadn't seen the one about a Seon/Skaze turning into something akin to a Shardblade, or the one about the bond being the same.

 

I know we don't have as much to go on, but is there any indication that the Seons/Skaze come from Shadesmar? 

[PorridgeBrick]

Shadesmar is just the region of the Cognitive Realm encompassing the area equivalent to Roshar in the Physical. While they are Cognitive beings, they're not from Shadesmar, any more than Sarene is from Roshar.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Actually, Shadesmar is the Local name of the Cognitive Realm. It's the entire Realm, just Rosharans make the map of it look like Roshar. Brandon confirmed that the map is a Faulty in-world Map.

[WeiryWriter]

Actually, Shadesmar is the Local name of the Cognitive Realm. It's the entire Realm, just Rosharans make the map of it look like Roshar. Brandon confirmed that the map is a Faulty in-world Map.

 

No PorrigeBrick is correct, Shadesmar is a region of the Cognitive Realm. A friend of mine, Leinton, asked Brandon about it at the WoR San Diego Signing.

[A Joe in the Bush]

One of these days, I just need to read every single WoB on TheoryLand. Good Job PorridgeBrick.

[Terisen]

One of these days, I just need to read every single WoB on TheoryLand. Good Job PorridgeBrick.

 

And that'll take you an entire day!  

 

There's so much out there, it's a steep learning curve.  Heck, I'm still trying to catch up.

[Sylphrena-Stormborn]

If shadesmar is a particular region and not the whole world, could we assume that it would be cognitive and that's where spren come from as opposed to seon being from the spiritual part? (as indicated in the emperors soul)

Also we know that some spren do more than just exist and wait to be called into the physical realm as evidenced by cryptics and honourspren not liking each other due to political reasons

[Oudeis]

But surely Breaths look far more Spiritual in nature than Cognitive? When you Awaken something, it's the Command that provides the cognitive aspect of the Investiture; the Breath seems to mainly provide the power. And when Vivenna's viewpoint first walks us through the process of Awakening, she likens it to her hair, where she has been concentrating too hard; she realizes she needs to relax and let her instincts and subconscious do the Awakening on its own. It sounds like acting too Cognitive is actually bad for Awakening.

 

I realize we know more about the cognitive realm than we do about the spiritual one, but I feel like I see people on this site assuming anything "metanatural" has to be of the Cognitive Realm. Some of this stuff is going to end up being very Spiritual.

[PorridgeBrick]

Why not both? Spren are both Spiritual and Cognitive: they've got their mind, their essential concept in the Cognitive Realm, and they've got the Investiture (and probably other stuff– do they have Spiritwebs?) in the Spiritual. Humans are of all three realms: their Spiritwebs, their minds in the Cognitive, their bodies in the Physical. And so AOs (Awakened Objects) are mainly of two, just like spren: in the Cognitive, they have the Command, and in the Spiritual they have the Investiture animating them, the Breath.

Re: Vivenna not concentrating too hard:

That's not an example of Cognitivity being bad. Remember, in WoR Jasnah describes the Cognitive Realm as the realm of inspiration, the realm of deeper thoughts, the subconscious. So Vivenna, by letting her instincts do the work, is actually opening herself up to the Cognitive more.

[Oudeis]

Why not both? Spren are both Spiritual and Cognitive: they've got their mind, their essential concept in the Cognitive Realm, and they've got the Investiture (and probably other stuff– do they have Spiritwebs?) in the Spiritual.

 

My personal interpretation is different from yours. Jasnah's discussion of spren leads me to the impression that they are primarily, perhaps exclusively, Cognitive beings. What do you mean by "the Investiture"? What Investiture do they have? I think it is a stretch to assume that they are multi-Realmatic entities, let alone to take it as evidence that any other entity is either multi-Realmatic, or similar to spren.

[Moogle]

My personal interpretation is different from yours. Jasnah's discussion of spren leads me to the impression that they are primarily, perhaps exclusively, Cognitive beings. What do you mean by "the Investiture"? What Investiture do they have? I think it is a stretch to assume that they are multi-Realmatic entities, let alone to take it as evidence that any other entity is either multi-Realmatic, or similar to spren.

 

Spren are all based on a Spiritual Ideal, but are referred to as "Transformative Cognitive entities" in the Ars Arcanum. WoB:

 

Q: Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

A:  Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Q: And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

A:  Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so <sounds hesitant> "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

Q: So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

A:  You are... [LONG pause] You are, um, on the right track.  Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of diety, right?  And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the diety Endowment, correct?  And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is yes, kind of true, yes.

Q:  But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself-

A:  Yes, yes, yes exactly.

(source)

[PorridgeBrick]

My personal interpretation is different from yours. Jasnah's discussion of spren leads me to the impression that they are primarily, perhaps exclusively, Cognitive beings. What do you mean by "the Investiture"? What Investiture do they have? I think it is a stretch to assume that they are multi-Realmatic entities, let alone to take it as evidence that any other entity is either multi-Realmatic, or similar to spren.

NEWBSOMBRERO ()

Are Splinters primarily Spiritual?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Less physical. More a blend of the other two.

QUESTION

Are Honorspren Splinters, or do they hold Splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Honorspren would be termed Splinters.

Splinters are of multiple realms, and spren are splinters. Spren are of multiple realms.

I can't quite find the quote for spren having Investiture, but I'm pretty positive they do. After all, Shardblades are spren in physical form, and Shardblades are very heavily Invested objects. Besides, isn't the definition of a Splinter Investiture that has gained sentience?

[Oudeis]

It seems I was mistaken, thank you for the attribution.