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Kandra Procreation


Elder

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I’d like to have a tasteful if also frank discussion about Kandra Reproduction.  We’ll start with what we know.  Then I’d like to speculate about their current state as well as something a little more out there.

1. What we know.  Kandra are created by giving specially crafted Hemalurgic spikes to Mist Wraiths.  This gives them sentience, and  at this point they generally start organizing their bodies into humanoid shapes.  Mist Wraiths have an 50 year life span and are capable of reproduction.  Did I miss anything?

2. Kandra Reproduction as of Era 2. Harmony isn’t giving out any more blessings.  Maybe he’s not interested in killing people to help a race of immortals reproduce. Either way that doesn’t happen anymore.  The Kandra Race has been stated to have hard limits on their numbers.  Discord might allow more, but Discord isn’t here right now.

 I wonder however if Kandra would still have the ability to reproduce and create Mist Wraiths.  I can imagine why they wouldn’t. Their children would not be intelligent, and would die before their parents.  That would put a damper on any desire to start a family.  Harmony could be prompted to give those children more of a life.   He did it for the Koloss. Of course given the inherent differences between Koloss and Koloss-blooded, Kandra may still not want to have children who are that much different from them. 

I’m also unsure if Mistwraith reproduction is necessarily anything like human or even animal reproduction.  What do they need with genetic transfer? For all we know, Mistwraiths reproduction is something like mitosis.  That would explain the 50 year life span.  After a few decades, a mistwraith splits into 2+ smaller mistwraiths.  That would also be a good reason why Kandra wouldn’t want to try that kind of reproduction.

3.  Human reproduction.  We know based on Wayne and Me’Laan that the Kandra are fully capable of sexual relationships with humans.  So I have to wonder: could a Kandra replicate the necessary organs and cells to conceive, carry, and /or give birth to a child?  And if they did, would that child be fully human?

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9 minutes ago, Elder said:

1. What we know.  Kandra are created by giving specially crafted Hemalurgic spikes to Mist Wraiths.  This gives them sentience, and  at this point they generally start organizing their bodies into humanoid shapes.  Mist Wraiths have an 50 year life span and are capable of reproduction.  Did I miss anything?

Kandra don't just organize their body into humanoid shape after giving them Blessings. It takes time, longer than for humans, for kandra to mature. And he is learning how to create proper tissue.

Spoiler

Oudeis16

TenSoon comments that when the unbirthed are given Blessings, they lose the mimickry instinct that mistwraiths have and have to be taught anew. If their only native senses are touch and taste, how exactly do you teach a blob of muscles how to form things like eyes and ears?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, you feed it some partially digested eyes, then some more eyes, then eventually it starts making eyes on its own. It takes a while; Kandra 'children' grow more slowly than human ones.

Oudeis16

I don't know if you've considered how mistwraiths would be taxonomically classified; have you decided whether or not mistwraiths would be considered 'mammals'?

Brandon Sanderson

They are not mammals. Since they were deliberately created, I'd place them in their own branch.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 16, 2015)

 

11 minutes ago, Elder said:

I wonder however if Kandra would still have the ability to reproduce and create Mist Wraiths.

19 minutes ago, Elder said:

3.  Human reproduction.  We know based on Wayne and Me’Laan that the Kandra are fully capable of sexual relationships with humans.  So I have to wonder: could a Kandra replicate the necessary organs and cells to conceive, carry, and /or give birth to a child?  And if they did, would that child be fully human?

I don't think Kandra reproduction leads to Mistwraiths. We have the WoB telling us that Kandra can give birth to a human baby (for now). If Kandra was able to recreate Mistwraigth reproductive organs, they could make young one of that species. But Kandra just don't reproduce, they don't have family and stuff like that.

Spoiler

Questioner

My friends and I had this debate when we were playing the Mistborn Adventure Game. So when a kandra imitates a human, do they replicate the organs perfectly?

Brandon Sanderson

Usually, yes. But there are kandra that do not, by intention, do that.

Questioner

Does that include the reproductive organs?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

So theoretically if a kandra were to copulate with a human while pretending to be a human, would it create another human?

Brandon Sanderson

It would. And I think I've been consistent on that. So, I have to do things like this because I didn't want a blood test to be able to determine who was a kandra and who wasn't, because that's your go-to way to find a shapeshifter. So I think I had to imitate entirely. But boy, would it imitate the genetic code... *sounds of thought and frustration*

Questioner

That's the question we have.

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I don't know that they would...so they were human...I'm going to go ahead and back pedal and RAFO on that. I haven't decided 100% yet...I know you can't tell with a bloodtest, but if you look at the DNA, would you be able to tell it's a kandra? And I'm kinda thinking you probably would be able to. 

Questioner

So then, following that they wouldn't be able to reproduce.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to reproduce in that case. I'm gonna go--jury's out. And I have to really make a call on this. I'm going to say, "Yes," right now, that they are doing this down to the cellular level, a copy, but I may have to backpedal on that when I get to future Mistborn books, when I really look at it, what it would take, to do that. It's an unofficial yes, with a RAFO attached to it.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

 

18 minutes ago, Elder said:

I’m also unsure if Mistwraith reproduction is necessarily anything like human or even animal reproduction.  What do they need with genetic transfer? For all we know, Mistwraiths reproduction is something like mitosis.  That would explain the 50 year life span.  After a few decades, a mistwraith splits into 2+ smaller mistwraiths.  That would also be a good reason why Kandra wouldn’t want to try that kind of reproduction.

They breed

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eighty - Part Two

Sazed Sees Mistwraiths

I worry that I didn't get to show mistwraiths very much in this book. It's not that big of an issue—they're only a minor world feature, and are only tangentially important. Still, they're a part of the kandra past and culture, and I want readers to understand what they are and what they have to do with the kandra life cycle.

Remember, all of the kandra save for the First Generation were born first as mistwraiths. That race of creatures breeds true, and has only a fifty-year lifespan. They die off, but birth new members. Taking one of those new members and adding spikes to them, however, awakens them and brings them sentience. They're part human, just like the koloss who remember having once been human.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 27, 2010)

 

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27 minutes ago, Elder said:

3.  Human reproduction.  We know based on Wayne and Me’Laan that the Kandra are fully capable of sexual relationships with humans.  So I have to wonder: could a Kandra replicate the necessary organs and cells to conceive, carry, and /or give birth to a child?  And if they did, would that child be fully human?

Well, we have a few WoB discussing the topic.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/10/#e6562

Questioner

If a kandra and a human were to have a baby, what would that baby be like?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that right now… It would depend... The kandra would have to remain in human form, keep the same body, and then would give birth to a human. If it was a woman [human] with a man [kandra], it wouldn’t be that big of a deal, with a kandra. Does that make sense? Because when the kandra is in human form, they can identically recreate the bodily functions and things if they want to.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8323

Questioner

Could a kandra imitating a human have a child with the human?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I kinda go back and forth on this. So-- 'Cause I think about it, then I tweak the magic, and I think "no this isn't possible," and then I go back, and I'm like, "but..." So it kinda comes down to a lot of things, such as, would I want a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not. And I haven't canonized that yet, so your answer is, Read And Find Out, once I decide. I go back and forth on that one so much.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8149

Questioner

Can a kandra have a human kid, if they're in a--

Brandon Sanderson

...So, their DNA would-- I've answered this both ways, I think, on the internet, as I go back on forth on whether I want DNA testing to be able to catch a kandra or not. I've erred on the side of, their DNA isn't human, and so they would not be compatible, but I've gone the other direction some of the time when people have asked this question. So, I guess the answer is, I have not fully decided for myself yet.

Based on these, I don't think we can say anything conclusive on whether or not Kandra can mate with humans yet. Brandon just hasn't decided which way he wants to go yet.

27 minutes ago, Elder said:

 I wonder however if Kandra would still have the ability to reproduce and create Mist Wraiths.  I can imagine why they wouldn’t. Their children would not be intelligent, and would die before their parents.  That would put a damper on any desire to start a family.  Harmony could be prompted to give those children more of a life.   He did it for the Koloss. Of course given the inherent differences between Koloss and Koloss-blooded, Kandra may still not want to have children who are that much different from them. 

It may be that their Hemalurgic spikes have altered them in such a way that it isn't possible for them to create Mistwraiths anymore. Could be that this isn't the case, but we don't know for certain.

Edit: it should be noted that @alder24's quote about Kandra reproducing with humans is from 2018, while the ones I found are from 2016 and 2017. So maybe it is possible for that to be done.

Could lead to some interesting results if Kandra made minor but compatible changes to their anatomy to grant to their (mostly) human children.

Edited by Trusk'our
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@alder24 and @Trusk'our, thank you both for bringing those resources to the discussion.

Quote

They breed

Regarding the passage you quoted, I’m not sure if I’m as certain of your interpretation.  The term “breed true” could just mean they reproduce in kind, their children being the same species, as opposed to it mending they mate with each other.  I suppose it’s semantics: I put more emphasis on “true,” and am less concerned with the term “breed” in that phrase.

I’m not saying you’re wrong.  Mistwraiths certainly are capable of creating whatever anatomy they need to reproduce sexually.  But again I have to ask why?  They don’t need any genetic information from each other.

Spoiler

It may be that their Hemalurgic spikes have altered them in such a way that it isn't possible for them to create Mistwraiths anymore. Could be that this isn't the case, but we don't know for certain.

Certainly a possibility.  Though, that does seem like the sort of thing Harmony could directly affect, just as he has with the Koloss.

Something else that’s occurred to me:  Pa’alm.

1. Sanderson declined to have Lessie and Wax have any children.  Did not give Wax a half-Kandra child out there.  That may indicate that he hasn’t wanted to get into that possibility.  He can always go later, but so far he hasn’t.  Me’Laan probably isn’t running off with Wayne’s child across the Cosmere either.

2. If anyone could have created more blessings for more Kandra, it would be Pa’alm.  Kandra that have no tie to Harmony, and never did.  Single Spike Trellium Kandra.  Suit does seem to believe in Trell aligned faceless immortals at the end of BoM.  I wouldn’t call this conclusive…. But it’s definitely a possibility.  Much more than option 1.

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16 minutes ago, Elder said:

I’m not saying you’re wrong.  Mistwraiths certainly are capable of creating whatever anatomy they need to reproduce sexually.  But again I have to ask why?  They don’t need any genetic information from each other.

What do you mean why? They're "humans", they do need genetics exchange. They're different species, yes, but were made out of humans. Rashek didn't have to make necessary changes to their reproductive system.

Spoiler

NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

 

24 minutes ago, Elder said:

Certainly a possibility.  Though, that does seem like the sort of thing Harmony could directly affect, just as he has with the Koloss.

You're missing the point of why Koloss were changed and Kandra not. Kandra already were immortal and had a way to make new young generations to preserve their culture. Koloss didn't have that.

Spoiler

Questioner

My favorite god, Sazed/Harmony, in my recent reread I got a bit angry at him because he didn’t let kandra be able to reproduce, but he let the koloss be able to do it. And I’m wondering if there’s a way he could have allowed that, but he chose not to? And also if there’s a way that it could happen in the future, so that two of my favorite people could have a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a couple things that he was facing, and let me walk you through his philosophy on this, which you are allowed to disagree with. I want, for every character I write, there to be things they do that you disagree with, because otherwise I’m writing all characters to be the same person, if that makes sense.

The kandra have immortality and are able to perpetuate their culture by being immortal for as long as the individuals live. The koloss don’t have that, meaning that if he didn’t make koloss able to breed true, the entire people vanish in one generation and all culture associated with them. And so because of that, he took the extra effort to change the koloss to allow for this sort of thing. But he did it in such a way that they would not have to have hemalurgic spikes, because the idea of making new hemalurgic spikes is extremely distasteful to Harmony. Reusing old ones is a thing he was willing to allow, but new ones he didn’t.

Could he have changed the kandra to be similar? Well, the answer is kind of a fairly... yes, but they would no longer have been the kandra, they would have been rolled back to being what they were before the Lord Ruler. And so they basically would stop being what they are that makes them unique as a culture. And he decided not to do that.

You can disagree with that, and I think there are some pretty valid arguments against the choice he made, but that is the choice he made.

Is there a way going forward? Yes, this is theoretically possible.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Melhay

In Mistborn #3 Hero of Ages: It isn't mentioned where all the Steel Inquisitors, Kandra, and Koloss went in the end. Do you feel that they were removed from the world and Sazed took all the lost souls to his better place?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh survived. (He'll show up in the Mistborn sequel series.) The Kandra were restored, and have taken a vow to live only in animal bodies. There will never be any more of them, but they are functionally immortal. So you'll see them again. The Koloss who were in the cavern at the time survived, and were changed to become a race that breeds true, rather than Hemalurgic monsters. More below.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Race that breeds true, like Mistwraiths.

19 minutes ago, Elder said:

1. Sanderson declined to have Lessie and Wax have any children.  Did not give Wax a half-Kandra child out there.  That may indicate that he hasn’t wanted to get into that possibility.  He can always go later, but so far he hasn’t.  Me’Laan probably isn’t running off with Wayne’s child across the Cosmere either.

They're Kandra, they can alter their body in such a way to switch off functionality of their reproductive system whenever they want.

20 minutes ago, Elder said:

2. If anyone could have created more blessings for more Kandra, it would be Pa’alm.  Kandra that have no tie to Harmony, and never did.  Single Spike Trellium Kandra.  Suit does seem to believe in Trell aligned faceless immortals at the end of BoM.  I wouldn’t call this conclusive…. But it’s definitely a possibility.  Much more than option 1.

Paalm was very close to TLR, from Coppermind:

Quote

As per the agreement between the Kandra and the Lord Ruler Paalm was to serve him directly. While under his control she was almost constantly sent on missions and was used to stop rebellions and topple kingdoms, some other Kandra even speculated that she had pretended to be an Inquisitor at one stage. Due to her work she did not often visit the homeland and it was suggested that she became familiar with the workings of Hemalurgy. Her loyalty lasted until the Final Ascension where it then switched to Harmony, again to the point of fanaticism.[7]

Because of how close she was to Rashek, she could pick up the way Rashak is making new Kandra Blessings at some point. Or figure enough to piece it together. Being away from Harmony allowed her to finally use it. I doubt Autonomy would just tell her how to make those spikes.

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1 hour ago, alder24 said:

What do you mean why? They're "humans", they do need genetics exchange. They're different species, yes, but were made out of humans. Rashek didn't have to make necessary changes to their reproductive system.

  Reveal hidden contents

NinjaMeTimbers

How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse?

Brandon Sanderson

This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

 

You're missing the point of why Koloss were changed and Kandra not. Kandra already were immortal and had a way to make new young generations to preserve their culture. Koloss didn't have that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

My favorite god, Sazed/Harmony, in my recent reread I got a bit angry at him because he didn’t let kandra be able to reproduce, but he let the koloss be able to do it. And I’m wondering if there’s a way he could have allowed that, but he chose not to? And also if there’s a way that it could happen in the future, so that two of my favorite people could have a baby?

Brandon Sanderson

There are a couple things that he was facing, and let me walk you through his philosophy on this, which you are allowed to disagree with. I want, for every character I write, there to be things they do that you disagree with, because otherwise I’m writing all characters to be the same person, if that makes sense.

The kandra have immortality and are able to perpetuate their culture by being immortal for as long as the individuals live. The koloss don’t have that, meaning that if he didn’t make koloss able to breed true, the entire people vanish in one generation and all culture associated with them. And so because of that, he took the extra effort to change the koloss to allow for this sort of thing. But he did it in such a way that they would not have to have hemalurgic spikes, because the idea of making new hemalurgic spikes is extremely distasteful to Harmony. Reusing old ones is a thing he was willing to allow, but new ones he didn’t.

Could he have changed the kandra to be similar? Well, the answer is kind of a fairly... yes, but they would no longer have been the kandra, they would have been rolled back to being what they were before the Lord Ruler. And so they basically would stop being what they are that makes them unique as a culture. And he decided not to do that.

You can disagree with that, and I think there are some pretty valid arguments against the choice he made, but that is the choice he made.

Is there a way going forward? Yes, this is theoretically possible.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Melhay

In Mistborn #3 Hero of Ages: It isn't mentioned where all the Steel Inquisitors, Kandra, and Koloss went in the end. Do you feel that they were removed from the world and Sazed took all the lost souls to his better place?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh survived. (He'll show up in the Mistborn sequel series.) The Kandra were restored, and have taken a vow to live only in animal bodies. There will never be any more of them, but they are functionally immortal. So you'll see them again. The Koloss who were in the cavern at the time survived, and were changed to become a race that breeds true, rather than Hemalurgic monsters. More below.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

Race that breeds true, like Mistwraiths.

They're Kandra, they can alter their body in such a way to switch off functionality of their reproductive system whenever they want.

Paalm was very close to TLR, from Coppermind:

Because of how close she was to Rashek, she could pick up the way Rashak is making new Kandra Blessings at some point. Or figure enough to piece it together. Being away from Harmony allowed her to finally use it. I doubt Autonomy would just tell her how to make those spikes.

Cognitively, sure they are still human, biologically, they are not at all human.  Rashek literally took their biological humanity away. Human reproduction is a biological function.  Rashek took all their human anatomy away.  Mistwraiths are only as biologically human as whatever they’ve managed to eat. They can pick up all the genetic diversity they could ask for in their diet.  I see two possibilities:

1.  They reproduce asexually.  They split apart at some point into multiple new mistwraiths.  Also worth noting, there’s hardly any gestation required for an amorphous blob that is going to grow and gain size and structure based on what it eats.

2.  At some point they eat and recreate sexual organs and use them by instinct.  The thing is, this can be done just as much asexually as it can be done sexually.  A mistwraith could easily produce all the required organs for the entire process.

Please understand I realize and agree with Harmony’s logic in why he didn’t grant the Kandra the same kind of procreation he gave the Koloss.  Thank you for confirming the possibility.

 

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12 minutes ago, Elder said:

I see two possibilities:

1.  They reproduce asexually.  They split apart at some point into multiple new mistwraiths.  Also worth noting, there’s hardly any gestation required for an amorphous blob that is going to grow and gain size and structure based on what it eats.

2.  At some point they eat and recreate sexual organs and use them by instinct.  The thing is, this can be done just as much asexually as it can be done sexually.  A mistwraith could easily produce all the required organs for the entire process.

They have a central nervous system, option 1 is highly unlikely in my opinion.

Option 3 -  they have no reproductive organs, until the time has come and they feel a biological urge to reproduce. They then develop their own unique reproductive organs without the need of consuming any previously (or they always have them) and mate, creating new offsprings. Like european freshwater eels who have no genitalia until they travel through the Atlantic ocean developing them in the meantime, mate, lay eggs and die.

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53 minutes ago, alder24 said:

They have a central nervous system, option 1 is highly unlikely in my opinion.

Option 3 -  they have no reproductive organs, until the time has come and they feel a biological urge to reproduce. They then develop their own unique reproductive organs without the need of consuming any previously (or they always have them) and mate, creating new offsprings. Like european freshwater eels who have no genitalia until they travel through the Atlantic ocean developing them in the meantime, mate, lay eggs and die.

And how hard would it be for them to grow another CNS patterned after their own to split?  In fact, that makes sense and explains the reduced lifespan: it takes about 5 decades for them to reach critical (bio)mass where it’s no longer feasible for a single CNS to manage such a large and complex organism, so the split everything apart, including the CNS into multiple organisms.

I still don’t see any point in sexual reproduction in a species that obtains all its physical traits as well as radical genetic diversity from its diet.  

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2 minutes ago, Elder said:

I still don’t see any point in sexual reproduction in a species that obtains all its physical traits as well as radical genetic diversity from its diet.  

We don't know if they can copy DNA. Look again at the WoBs above, Brandon still hasn't decided if they mimic DNA or not. He wants a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not.

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4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

We don't know if they can copy DNA. Look again at the WoBs above, Brandon still hasn't decided if they mimic DNA or not. He wants a DNA test to be able to determine if a kandra is real or not.

That’s still plausible.  You probably wouldn’t see the same kind of genetic damage in cells created by a Kandra.  The Telomeres suffer wear and tear whenever cells replicate, and Kandra probably wouldn’t need that.

though, if they replicate the cells with the exact genetic damage they had when ingested, that theory doesn’t work.  

Edited by Elder
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