Kandra Blessings, Identity, and Commands

[Trusk'our]

Kandra Blessings and their creation have been elusive for a while now, but I have another educated hypothesis as to how it's done.

We know that the Lord Ruler personally created the Kandra Blessings.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174/#e8545

Questioner

How exactly do you make kandra blessings using Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that for now. Even they don't quite know, right? They were provided by the Lord Ruler for them, and they didn't create them themselves. So, we'll RAFO that.

We also know that a few of the fundamental differences between Hemalurgic spikes made for Koloss and spikes made for Kandra is the amount of Investiture pulled from the donor and what specific segments are taken.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4652

Questioner

What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent.

Questioner

What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon.

Questioner 2

That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing.

Brandon Sanderson

You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences.

But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know.

We also know from Bleeder that it is possible for a Kandra to create new spikes for themselves to replace their old Blessings, otherwise Bleeder wouldn't have been able to use a Trellium spike.

And we know from TLM that Commands can be used when using Hemalurgy to be more specific in what is taken and what is not.

With that evidence in mind, my current idea for how Kandra Blessings are made is that TLR would use Commands to take larger than average sections of the Spiritweb of the donors for the Kandra Blessings, including more of the part that specifically makes humans... human (in fact, I think that something similar happened with the Chimera that Bleeder made; she spiked some canines, took a large portion of their innate "self", and spiked that into humans, creating a bigger change than what would have normally been possible with a single spike). True sapience and higher cognitive functions.

As this was done, the Identity of the spikes was somehow Blanked, or at least made to be more adaptable to its host. When the spikes were given to a Mistwraith, they granted them sapience by altering them to be more humanlike in nature. The spikes would then "grow" into the Kandra, becoming a fundamental part of their Identity, which explains why ReLuur couldn't take another Kandra's spike without both of his; the Identity of the spikes weren't compatible with each other, so they caused him pain.

This also makes sense if we look at Bleeder; she was able to make two spikes, one that provided Feruchemical steel, and the other that provided Allomantic steel, neither of which she should have been able to bear unless they were Identity compatible with her. Bleeder's case also proves that it isn't just the Kandra growing into the Identity of the spikes, since that would mean that she couldn't have created new spikes for herself, as their Identity wouldn't have been compatible with hers.

There are some other very interesting implications for Hemalurgy if this proves true, but I'll make another post sometime for those ideas as this post is specifically for Kandra Blessings.

In any case, I'd love to hear what all of you guys think. If anyone has solid evidence that disproves this hypothesis, I'll gladly listen, as I'd rather have this idea of mine be wrong than have a false head cannon.

That said, if you do try to disprove it, I'm sure I'll defend my point if I reasonably can, cause it's fun 

Edit: Oh, and it may be worth noting that it isn't really the amount of Investiture in the spikes that matters too much, it's what is taken in them. Otherwise, enough Breaths would do the job of bringing them sapience.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/137/#e7249

PhantomMonstrosity

How many Breaths would be fair to turn a mistwraith into kandra-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Turning a mistwraith to a kandra would be hard with Breath. It doesn't give sentience.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Kandra Blessings and their creation have been elusive for a while now, but I have another educated hypothesis as to how it's done.

We know that the Lord Ruler personally created the Kandra Blessings.

We also know that a few of the fundamental differences between Hemalurgic spikes made for Koloss and spikes made for Kandra is the amount of Investiture pulled from the donor and what specific segments are taken.

We also know from Bleeder that it is possible for a Kandra to create new spikes for themselves to replace their old Blessings, otherwise Bleeder wouldn't have been able to use a Trellium spike.

And we know from TLM that Commands can be used when using Hemalurgy to be more specific in what is taken and what is not.

With that evidence in mind, my current idea for how Kandra Blessings are made is that TLR would use Commands to take larger than average sections of the Spiritweb of the donors for the Kandra Blessings, including more of the part that specifically makes humans... human (in fact, I think that something similar happened with the Chimera that Bleeder made; she spiked some canines, took a large portion of their innate "self", and spiked that into humans, creating a bigger change than what would have normally been possible with a single spike). True sapience and higher cognitive functions.

As this was done, the Identity of the spikes was somehow Blanked, or at least made to be more adaptable to its host. When the spikes were given to a Mistwraith, they granted them sapience by altering them to be more humanlike in nature. The spikes would then "grow" into the Kandra, becoming a fundamental part of their Identity, which explains why ReLuur couldn't take another Kandra's spike without both of his; the Identity of the spikes weren't compatible with each other, so they caused him pain.

This also makes sense if we look at Bleeder; she was able to make two spikes, one that provided Feruchemical steel, and the other that provided Allomantic steel, neither of which she should have been able to bear unless they were Identity compatible with her. Bleeder's case also proves that it isn't just the Kandra growing into the Identity of the spikes, since that would mean that she couldn't have created new spikes for herself, as their Identity wouldn't have been compatible with hers.

There are some other very interesting implications for Hemalurgy if this proves true, but I'll make another post sometime for those ideas as this post is specifically for Kandra Blessings.

In any case, I'd love to hear what all of you guys think. If anyone has solid evidence that disproves this hypothesis, I'll gladly listen, as I'd rather have this idea of mine be wrong than have a false head cannon.

That said, if you do try to disprove it, I'm sure I'll defend my point if I reasonably can, cause it's fun 

Edit: Oh, and it may be worth noting that it isn't really the amount of Investiture in the spikes that matters too much, it's what is taken in them. Otherwise, enough Breaths would do the job of bringing them sapience.

 

I love all things Kandra headcannoned.  It makes sense that the idea of breaths being used to create a Kandra leaves some room for want.  

I wonder if an awakener could cram more breaths into a Kandra blessing and draw more power from what the blessing was meant to do?  Enhance or augment it in a way?  

Intent is vital for just about everything in the cosmere.  I figure even when Vin was growing she could have felt other sources of "luck" but without it being a substantial amount of a metal she wouldn't have noticed a huge difference.  

I also don't think that it is a bad idea to add a verbal component to any spike.  We know that 10th heightening can technically awaken with non verbal commands so long as the mental visualization is on point... but it doesn't clarify how complex those commands can be.  I can totally see a world where more complex spike making would need a verbal component to it as well as some intent.  

I would love to headcannon someone packing a spike with more and more investiture via awakening it further to simply do what it is supposed to do better.   

 

Edit: @Trusk'our

I found the word "donor" to be an interesting one.  We don't know much.  But could it be possible that what gives sapience and sentience to the kandra is that the donors were willing?  That the donors were offered something in return?  Perhaps that their minds could live on in the form of a kandra?  Loyalists to TLR who he trusted?  

Their minds pseudo uploaded into a spike and then when placed in a mistwraith they have no memories of what or who they were but the abilities they once carried get to live on and serve for generations to come?  

Perhaps the first generation of kandra even wore their own spikes after their bodies were changed to mistwraiths?  

This is probably super far off but it was a thought that popped into my mind.  

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine
Another thought.

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I love all things Kandra headcannoned.  It makes sense that the idea of breaths being used to create a Kandra leaves some room for want.  

I wonder if an awakener could cram more breaths into a Kandra blessing and draw more power from what the blessing was meant to do?  Enhance or augment it in a way?  

I would love to headcannon someone packing a spike with more and more investiture via awakening it further to simply do what it is supposed to do better.   

Actually, I was going to make a separate post about such a thing occurring, but looks like you beat me to it !

I think that this would work; Bio-Chromatic Breaths are the easiest Investiture to move from vessel to vessel, and can be varied and adapted in their use. We know that when you Compound, you use a Feruchemical charge inside of the metal burned to allow for the Feruchemical power to be drawn from the SR instead of the Allomantic one.

Using this knowledge, I think that it is very possible to do as you suggested and Awaken a Hemalurgic spike to enhance its power; it would follow a similar principle to Compounding, using the Investiture already inside the spike as a base, which the Breaths would then use as a model to copy, which would increase the total power of the spike.

Plus, there's a WoB saying that you can Awaken a spike, though it would be harder than normal, so you'd either need to find a way to make Awakening inorganic material easier (which very well may be possible) or you'd need at least the Nineth Heightening.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e1803

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

Alright, thanks. Last question for me tonight - so, when a Hemalurgic spike steals something, then it's storing Investiture in it, yeah? So could you - could you do something with that Investiture? Like... say I'm on Nalthis, and just theoretically, I use a Hemalurgic spike to steal a lot of Breath - can I use that Investiture to Awaken something? Could I Awaken the spike?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That... you'd need a lot of Investiture to Awaken a spike.

Lhyonnaes (paraphrased)

Because it's already charged up with something else?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

In fact, you might be able to pull a Nightblood and Invest the spikes far more than ever could be achieved through more conventional means, and because Hemalurgic spikes don't leak Investiture while inside a body, you would retain all the power crammed inside. Do that with the Blessing of Presence and gain a mind capable of unraveling the secrets of the Cosmere 

As a side note, you could probably use Breaths to add onto a Metalmind's charge as you would Hemalurgic spikes- fueling Feruchemy with Awakening- though that's hardly groundbreaking as Compounding exists and is probably easier and cheaper to do in the long run.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Intent is vital for just about everything in the cosmere.  I figure even when Vin was growing she could have felt other sources of "luck" but without it being a substantial amount of a metal she wouldn't have noticed a huge difference.  

I also don't think that it is a bad idea to add a verbal component to any spike.  We know that 10th heightening can technically awaken with non verbal commands so long as the mental visualization is on point... but it doesn't clarify how complex those commands can be.  I can totally see a world where more complex spike making would need a verbal component to it as well as some intent.  

Yeah, Intent is very important for Cosmere magics, and apparently Commands are more universal in nature than I had previously assumed. I now think that Commands may just be a way of specifying Intent more, giving it a more controlled "path" to achieve its objectives.

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Edit: @Trusk'our

I found the word "donor" to be an interesting one.  We don't know much.  But could it be possible that what gives sapience and sentience to the kandra is that the donors were willing?  That the donors were offered something in return?  Perhaps that their minds could live on in the form of a kandra?  Loyalists to TLR who he trusted?  

Their minds pseudo uploaded into a spike and then when placed in a mistwraith they have no memories of what or who they were but the abilities they once carried get to live on and serve for generations to come?  

Perhaps the first generation of kandra even wore their own spikes after their bodies were changed to mistwraiths?  

This is probably super far off but it was a thought that popped into my mind.  

That's an interesting idea. I hadn't considered it before, but there isn't anything that necessarily rules it out. 

And I have wondered if who the spikes are made from influences the Kandra's personality, and it would be pretty interesting to see if TLR decided to get willing people to bring sapience to the next Kandra generation. In fact, we do have a WoB regarding this area, though I don't think it specifically entails anything about Kandra Blessings.

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e172

Moderator

Is there such a thing as… voluntary Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

Voluntary Hemalurgy? Yes.

Moderator

...Where you can give a power to someone through those sorts of means.

Brandon Sanderson

Through any means, or through Hemalurgic means?

Moderator

Er, explain what you mean by that question. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

In Nalthis, you are giving up your power voluntarily to someone else.

Moderator

Specifically in the context of Scadrial here.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean, can you not imagine a person who's like "Yes I am crazy and will give up my power to this…" you know?

Bystander

But don't the end results negate?

Brandon Sanderson

You can't imagine somebody who would do that? …I am absolutely sure that at some point even in creating Inquisitors there's somebody who would be like, "yes, I will give my life to the Lord Ruler." So, yes?