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Random Twinborn Combos: Go!


Koloss17

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5 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m almost tempted to hold of on today’s combo, as this conversation is the most active this thread has been in a bit!

 

But perhaps I could fudge the rules a little bit…

Random* Twinborn Combo Day 11:

A-Brass and F-Copper

 

So today I may have fudged the randomness a tad, in keeping with the current thread tangent. The Allomantic metal is completely random, but I made the Feruchemantic metal copper. Anyway, here we go.

 

Allomantic Brass, as previously established, is not that shabby of an Allomantic metal. Giving subtle manipulations of someone’s mind can definitely be useful, and if you are less subtle with it, it could even be nice in a fight. It’s not the most deadly of metals, but it gets the job done, and is quite versatile.

F-Copper is the more ambiguous one. With it, you can store events or facts away, allowing immediate recall of them in times of need, but with the disadvantage of losing those memories until you take them out of the coppermind. Once you have the memory though, it degrades just like any other. Quite the interesting dilemma, if you ask me.
 

That is certainly useful, but the real controversy comes from if you can actually get more than just memories and facts from it. Theoretically, if you spent hours watching Chess games and reading up on strategy, could you tap that in the moment to become an accomplished Chess player, without ever playing a game beforehand?

And, putting it in a more Brass relevant scenario, could studying politics without experience make you good at smooth talking a political rival?

My guess is that it could help a preexisting skill, but even with perfect memory, nothing can quite make up for having physical experience with a skill.

 

Having both A-Brass and F-Copper could be quite the combo, as it would allow you to conjure up memories of whoever you are talking to (so long as you went digging beforehand), and know exactly where to soothe to get the effect you desire. I’m sure most soothers would kill for something like that.

Resonance: Well, Allomantic Brass almost taps into the mind of others, and F-Copper basically taps into your own mind. So…perhaps something like an increased sense of self awareness, or the ability to read the room?

Name: Informant or Secretkeeper

Rating: basically a super soother, so pretty nice. 8/10.

Informant seems like a fitting name for this one! Secretkeeper sounds very cool as well, but it's a bit on the nose and might be a better fit for something like a Copper Compounder, who could resist Emotional Allomancy and keep all their facts straight.

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8 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

A-Brass and F-Copper

This randomness is suspiciosly not random... :P

10 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

So today I may have fudged the randomness a tad, in keeping with the current thread tangent. The Allomantic metal is completely random, but I made the Feruchemantic metal copper. Anyway, here we go.

I knew it! You lied to us! :angry:

11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

That is certainly useful, but the real controversy comes from if you can actually get more than just memories and facts from it. Theoretically, if you spent hours watching Chess games and reading up on strategy, could you tap that in the moment to become an accomplished Chess player, without ever playing a game beforehand?

No, you would have to shuffle through every memory to find the correct one to know what move to make next - which is a very time consuming process, and professional chess is timed. You would run out of time if you try to do it during a competition. But it would help you to prepare for that competition for sure. 

How I imagine copperminds works is like a library. First you go to the catalog, which you yourself made, find what you're looking at, and go for those memories, tap them, write them down and store them back - repeat that with every memory that contains what you're looking for. This is the very thing that Sazed is doing. Scrolling through his catalog, tapping multiple memories, writing all of them down and then using that. And it takes time. Good when you have time to prepare, not so good when the clock is ticking.

13 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

And, putting it in a more Brass relevant scenario, could studying politics without experience make you good at smooth talking a political rival?

My guess is that it could help a preexisting skill, but even with perfect memory, nothing can quite make up for having physical experience with a skill.

 

Having both A-Brass and F-Copper could be quite the combo, as it would allow you to conjure up memories of whoever you are talking to (so long as you went digging beforehand), and know exactly where to soothe to get the effect you desire. I’m sure most soothers would kill for something like that.

Yes, that's what I was thinking as well. Whenever you met a new person, just store everything almost immediately, so you won't forget anything, and later in the privacy of your home, analyze it to find "weak" points in that person: what enraged him, what was his reaction to what you said/done, what made him happy, sad, every slight detail in his posture, mimics etc - write it down, and create a shortened list of how to manipulate that person, and store it. With this you could be far more effective in manipulating other peoples, because you can get much more details from a single conversation with them.

18 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Resonance: Well, Allomantic Brass almost taps into the mind of others, and F-Copper basically taps into your own mind. So…perhaps something like an increased sense of self awareness, or the ability to read the room?

Probably better at reading the room. Or picking up small details in people's behavior.

 

12 minutes ago, Cinnamon said:

Hmmm this, having Keeper in it doesn’t sound right… what about a Suppressor or Manipulist, or Mindworm … hmm, still doesn’t sound right. I’ll get back to you if I think of anything better.

How about Wormtongue? :D 

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21 minutes ago, Cinnamon said:

Hmmm this, having Keeper in it doesn’t sound right… what about a Suppressor or Manipulist, or Mindworm … hmm, still doesn’t sound right. Informant is great though it may work better with another combo. I’ll get back to you if I think of anything better.

I’m really loving this thread by the way! Awesome job Koloss17!

I agree on the Secretkeeper part. Sounds cool, but has in world troubles. 
 

And thanks! I thought it would be a fun idea, and it seems many folks agree!

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9 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

I thought it would be a fun idea

A very fun idea, in fact! So fun that I have come here so late in the thread to (kind of) apologize. Way earlier on, before this thread had more than one page, I saw this idea and kind of.... accidentally stole it. I meant to ask for permission, but school distracted me and I forgot to ask. Now I'm 24 Twinborn Combos deep and catching up on this thread, just now realizing I never asked. I can stop if you want, help if you want, or I can continue writing for my set of personal ideas and you can work with the community for severely improved combos from the ones I thought up on a whim :)

Also, just as a bit of help, you should try to write down the numbers that you rolled somewhere separate just so you can double check and make sure you don't accidentally reroll something you've already done before. One last general question: What would you call an Atium Ferring? Assuming we're using the Era 1 Atium still (Allomantic Future-Shadows and Feruchemcial Youth) I'd assume that would have its own name, but I can't find anything official on the Coppermind, and it would really help my notes (if I am allowed to continue making them).

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4 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

A very fun idea, in fact! So fun that I have come here so late in the thread to (kind of) apologize. Way earlier on, before this thread had more than one page, I saw this idea and kind of.... accidentally stole it. I meant to ask for permission, but school distracted me and I forgot to ask. Now I'm 24 Twinborn Combos deep and catching up on this thread, just now realizing I never asked. I can stop if you want, help if you want, or I can continue writing for my set of personal ideas and you can work with the community for severely improved combos from the ones I thought up on a whim :)

Also, just as a bit of help, you should try to write down the numbers that you rolled somewhere separate just so you can double check and make sure you don't accidentally reroll something you've already done before. One last general question: What would you call an Atium Ferring? Assuming we're using the Era 1 Atium still (Allomantic Future-Shadows and Feruchemcial Youth) I'd assume that would have its own name, but I can't find anything official on the Coppermind, and it would really help my notes (if I am allowed to continue making them).

Is this an unposted thread? I’m not seeing it about. I mean, you do you! I doubt you’ll be competition more than a helper to it, and if it’s you spamming shorter summaries, I think that could certainly offer a different sort of content than mine. 
 

And, I mean, the whole point is that this thread is supposed to inspire folks to think about Twinborn combinations that are less obvious, so you go for it!

 

Side note: did you just spam me with rep as a form of apology?

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11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Is this an unposted thread? I’m not seeing it about. I mean, you do you! I doubt you’ll be competition more than a helper to it, and if it’s you spamming shorter summaries, I think that could certainly offer a different sort of content than mine. 

Not a thread at all! It's just something I've written down, non-public. I just thought it was fun so I was doing it in my spare time. I know idea theft can be a pretty tough thing, even if it's non-public.

11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

And, I mean, the whole point is that this thread is supposed to inspire folks to think about Twinborn combinations that are less obvious, so you go for it!

Thanks! I'll just continue writing them on my own. Sorry for all this!

11 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Side note: did you just spam me with rep as a form of apology?

No, that was just me remembering rep is a thing. First I read it all, then I apologized, then I went back and looked for all the combos that I thought were cool and... I might've thought they all were cool :P (Yes, even the 'lamer' ones). Sorry!

Should I go back and undo it? I didn't know mass-repping was a bad thing (yes I just invented that term now) and can undo it if you think I should. Sorry for causing even more problems :(

Edited by Voidwatcher
small clarification + another sentence
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13 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

Not a thread at all! It's just something I've written down, non-public. I just thought it was fun so I was doing it in my spare time. I know idea theft can be a pretty tough thing, even if it's non-public.

If @Koloss17 doesn't mind, I'd personally love it if you posted some of those on here, Twinborn combos are fun.

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24 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I'd personally love it if you posted some of those on here

If I am allowed to post them, I'd have to do a lot of reworking (and also double-check and make sure I don't repost a TC/Twinborn Combo that was already done). My understanding of resonances was somewhat flawed at best because they're challenging to think of sometimes, so I feel I gave them a bit too much leeway and should at least give them all another look. Aluminum/Duralumin/Chromium/Nicrosil and Atium are the real troublemakers of complexity for interesting combos (both allomantically and feruchemically) while A-gold and A-electrum aren't helping, but the few high-quality TCs I worked out are pretty cool (if my theories for them are correct).

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51 minutes ago, Voidwatcher said:

If I am allowed to post them, I'd have to do a lot of reworking (and also double-check and make sure I don't repost a TC/Twinborn Combo that was already done). My understanding of resonances was somewhat flawed at best because they're challenging to think of sometimes, so I feel I gave them a bit too much leeway and should at least give them all another look. Aluminum/Duralumin/Chromium/Nicrosil and Atium are the real troublemakers of complexity for interesting combos (both allomantically and feruchemically) while A-gold and A-electrum aren't helping, but the few high-quality TCs I worked out are pretty cool (if my theories for them are correct).

I'd say a fresh perspective would be useful for a discussion like this, considering how speculative most of it is, so instead of not including any we've already discussed, maybe just read over what we said and only include something we didn't talk about? and you can't have any worse of a grasp on Resonances than we do, practically every other one we come up with it "Heightened Awareness" of such and such, so really it can only help us to see some more outlandish ones to help broaden our horizons.

The Enhancement/Spiritual quadrant is pretty mind-numbing, but that's part of why this is fun, and since we're not likely to see the vast, vast majority of Twinborns, and only have limited information to go on them anyway, it might be fun to add sections to the summaries and analyses where we consider more unlikely (within reason) possibilities, just to see how far we could stretch them. 

If @Koloss17 agrees, I'm hyped to check out the ones you've had cooking!

Edited by Underwater_Worldhopper
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6 hours ago, Cinnamon said:

I’m really loving this thread by the way! Awesome job Koloss17!

Same here

I disagree with secretkeeper as a name, because with this combo the brass isn't really contributing to the name (can't really see how brass helps you keep secrets), and just copper is already keeper. 
I think generally these two powers aren't interacting with each other very often, because brass is external and copper is internal.

EDIT: just reading the upper posts, would also love it if you could post some of the combos (assuming koloss17's approval is given)

Edited by mip67
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46 minutes ago, mip67 said:

I disagree with secretkeeper as a name, because with this combo the brass isn't really contributing to the name (can't really see how brass helps you keep secrets), and just copper is already keeper. 

Isn't Copper Archivist? Similar principles, but Keeper is the group associated with the Synod and stuff IIRC. Keepers did use Copperminds to achieve their goals, so it slightly works, but secretkeeper seems too far off for reasons you've said.

We could try a name combining Archivist/Archiver/Archive and whatever is decided for the Soothing part of the name, although it's not an easy word to combine anything with. Maybe we could go for something simpler, like Storyteller since the 'telling' would be enhanced by Soothing and the 'story' is from a Coppermind. However, Storyteller could also work for A-Zinc and F-Copper, so maybe not. Just spitballing, here.

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1 hour ago, Voidwatcher said:

Isn't Copper Archivist? Similar principles, but Keeper is the group associated with the Synod and stuff IIRC. Keepers did use Copperminds to achieve their goals, so it slightly works, but secretkeeper seems too far off for reasons you've said.

We could try a name combining Archivist/Archiver/Archive and whatever is decided for the Soothing part of the name, although it's not an easy word to combine anything with. Maybe we could go for something simpler, like Storyteller since the 'telling' would be enhanced by Soothing and the 'story' is from a Coppermind. However, Storyteller could also work for A-Zinc and F-Copper, so maybe not. Just spitballing, here.

That's a wonderful idea. I also forgot about the archivist thing, 100% my bad. A zinc and A brass can manage pretty similar effects, so it doesn't really matter.

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20 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I think by manic it really just means hell-bent on doing something, like determination to the point of mania where you forget about everything else, not the more negative connotations mania has, so there wouldn't be any other alterations in your mental state beyond the determination.

Your parallel of controlled Bipolar disorder is spot on, I think.

See to me those two statements don't totally line up, mania in that sense is less healthy than just "being really determined".

8 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I do wonder though, being an Electrum Compounder (or just a regular Pinnacle) could potentially be very useful for someone diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. Store determination during mania, tap it during depression. Possible use for Electrum Medallions??

I think it would be incredibly useful for that, one of the few situations where it would really be a great power to have.

(I actually can see several other uses for F-Electrum, but they're very niche, like resisting super powerful "depression" Soothing like Vin's Duralumin blast on Straff or TLR's aura, or a Full Feruchemist using it to power through extreme pain without fainting to hide a goldmind inside their body before healing up the cut with F-Gold.)

--

I feel like F-Copper was a super big deal in Era 1 when lots of things were kept secret and records were destroyed or suppressed, but will be less and less powerful as communications and information technology advances. Once everyone has a smartphone to serve as external memory...

Edited by cometaryorbit
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8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Full Feruchemist using it to power through extreme pain without fainting to hide a goldmind inside their body before healing up the cut with F-Gold.)

I don't think simple determination would allow you not to pass out from pain, that's maybe a bronze thing, but it certainly would allow you to keep cutting yourself despite your body's natural instincts pushing you to stop this. But you can store pain senses in tin, so that's no pain at all, and electrum is not needed again.

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I feel like F-Copper was a super big deal in Era 1 when lots of things were kept secret and records were destroyed or suppressed, but will be less and less powerful as communications and information technology advances. Once everyone has a smartphone to serve as external memory...

Yeah, unless you combine those two together and be able to upload memories and data from your phone directly into your brain and the other way around too as well.

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11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

How am I just finding out MAG had an entire list of Twinborn names???

It isn't cannon, but it has some pretty good ones in there. Should've considered these ones, no?

Nah, that takes fun away. :P 

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49 minutes ago, stormform wert said:

i was thinking about the combination A-tin and F-gold for no reason, and I thought the twinborn name could be a combination of bloodmake and tineye, like bloodeye, or tin-maker?

Bloodeye sounds way more Metal

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Another double day!

Random Twinborn Combo Day 11.5:

A-Brass and F-Brass

Well, this compounder is pretty funky. Obviously A-brass is not so bad of a combo, and could be used to good effect, but folks mostly look at the compounded metal. 
 

So F-Brass is pretty funky, as you get to raise or lower your body temperature to inhuman degrees without feeling it. This can be nice for every-day life, but as this is a compounder, of course we’ll be looking at it from a combat sense.

A normal Brass Ferring could certainly use their ability in combat, but it would take quite a lot to pull off. For a compounder, however, they could heat their body to roughly the heat of the sun with little problem. The main concern is that there is such thing as too hot, and that is generally the heat it would take to catch your clothes on fire. And if they have either fire-resistant clothing or no dignity, then they would have to worry about the melting point of the ground they’re walking on. Either way, they’ll have to be relatively scientifically inclined.

Resonance: Soothing emotions and internal heat…don’t know! Theories anyone?

Name: Inferno or Wildfire would be an apt description, but something like Embertongue would summarize their twinborn-ness.

Rating: Pretty cool for a compounder, and it seems quite fun! 8/10


Random Twinborn Combo Day 12: 

A-Aluminum and F-Gold

So this is going to be an interesting one. A-aluminum does nothing much on its own, but because it’s a twinborn, it creates a resonance. Now, technically Aluminum can cleans spiritual damage if used tactfully and excessively, which does actually combo quite nicely with F-gold.

I won’t go too long on what F-Gold does, as you all know at this point.

Resonance: Well, A-aluminum CAN cleanse the spiritual realm, and F-Gold heals the physical realm according to cognitive identity, so I would thing that it would be naturally hard to corrupt their identity or spirit web. My thought is that a Twinborn of this type would be able to handle an unusual amount of spikes without too much trouble.

Name: Puresoul?

Rating: basically a Bloodmaker but with a slight resonance. 4/10.

Edited by Koloss17
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24 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Random Twinborn Combo Day 12: 

A-Aluminum and F-Gold

So this is going to be an interesting one. A-aluminum does nothing much on its own, but because it’s a twinborn, it creates a resonance. Now, technically Aluminum can cleans spiritual damage if used tactfully and excessively, which does actually combo quite nicely with F-gold.

I won’t go too long on what F-Gold does, as you all know at this point.

Resonance: Well, A-aluminum CAN cleanse the spiritual realm, and F-Gold heals the physical realm according to cognitive identity, so I would thing that it would be naturally hard to corrupt their identity or spirit web. My thought is that a Twinborn of this type would be able to handle an unusual amount of spikes without too much trouble.

Name: Puresoul?

Rating: basically a Bloodmaker but with a slight resonance. 4/10.

Based on the aluminum cleansing unwanted effects and impurities, this combo might be more powerful than you think. Cleansing the soul out of savant bad effects - no problem. Spikes? Give me more. Shades on Threnody? Walking straight through them like they're not even there. Because of how it's worded "unwanted" this means that you're changing your spirit web based on your cognitive perception, based on what you're considering to be unwanted, and that is huge. This might be really a good combo, allowing you to change your spiritual ideal to which your body is healing. This could be a way to heal old wounds that are perceived as a part of you, but still are unwanted. I like this one.

Spoiler

Douglas

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

Brandon Sanderson

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)

Threnody spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

*laughter*

[clarification on the question]

Brandon Sanderson

They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

Kurkistan

So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Kurkistan

That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

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17 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think simple determination would allow you not to pass out from pain, that's maybe a bronze thing, but it certainly would allow you to keep cutting yourself despite your body's natural instincts pushing you to stop this. But you can store pain senses in tin, so that's no pain at all, and electrum is not needed again.

Yeah good point... electrum is just not that great.

41 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

For a compounder, however, they could heat their body to roughly the heat of the sun with little problem. The main concern is that there is such thing as too hot, and that is generally the heat it would take to catch your clothes on fire. And if they have either fire-resistant clothing or no dignity, then they would have to worry about the melting point of the ground they’re walking on. Either way, they’ll have to be relatively scientifically inclined.

Resonance: Soothing emotions and internal heat…don’t know! Theories anyone?

Actually, I don't think sun heat is possible... I think the limit is when their brassminds melt and fall off (or even vaporize).

Brass is an alloy, and the Allomantic/Feruchemical ideal mix is probably not the same as the most common brass for us, so its melting point isn't 100% certain - but Googling gives numbers around 900 C or 1700 F for brass... somewhat lower than pure copper (~1084C/1984F). But metals can soften before they melt.

So sun heat is definitely off the table and even low lava temperatures around 800C are probably not safe for the brassminds' life expectancy.

But yeah, clothes will burn way below that. And since clothes are going to be much more in contact with the body than the opponent will, using F-brass as a weapon is probably very tricky. It sounds like a good desperation tactic if grappled by an enemy, but not a good first resort.

 

--

I don't think aluminum really heals the spiritweb, it flushes out foreign investiture. So it would get rid of Shade corruption but not heal a Shardblade wound.

I don't think you could burn aluminum while tapping gold (it'd probably wipe out the effect of the gold you're tapping just like it wipes out your own Allomantic metals - it doesn't *only* remove unwanted things, Vin certainly didn't want her metals to go away), but this might still affect the Resonance. Perhaps this Twinborn could heal spiritual wounds more efficiently. (Though we still have basically nothing to go on for resonances.)

Edited by cometaryorbit
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3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

But yeah, clothes will burn way below that. And since clothes are going to be much more in contact with the body than the opponent will, using F-brass as a weapon is probably very tricky. It sounds like a good desperation tactic if grappled by an enemy, but not a good first resort.

There might be a way to use Feruchemy to affect only a specific portion of your body. Then you could heat up the tip of your finger to ungodly temperatures and melt through the body of your opponent, without melting your brassminds or burning your clothes.

Spoiler

PhantomMonstrosity (paraphrased)

Can a pewter Feruchemist go all fiddler crab? Store a bunch of strength from one arm, tap it into the other?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So far, any Freuchemist we've seen has been required to enhance their entire body or make their entire body weaker.

Steel Ministry report (Aug. 20, 2014)

 

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22 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

 

Actually, I don't think sun heat is possible... I think the limit is when their brassminds melt and fall off (or even vaporize).

Brass is an alloy, and the Allomantic/Feruchemical ideal mix is probably not the same as the most common brass for us, so its melting point isn't 100% certain - but Googling gives numbers around 900 C or 1700 F for brass... somewhat lower than pure copper (~1084C/1984F). But metals can soften before they melt.

So sun heat is definitely off the table and even low lava temperatures around 800C are probably not safe for the brassminds' life expectancy.

But yeah, clothes will burn way below that. And since clothes are going to be much more in contact with the body than the opponent will, using F-brass as a weapon is probably very tricky. It sounds like a good desperation tactic if grappled by an enemy, but not a good first

Yeah, heat of the sun was most definitely a hyperbole. But yeah. You can get h o t.

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