The Secrets of A-Gold

[Koloss17]

So, I have been roleplaying a gold savant over in the Alleyverse forums (which if you like roleplaying and haven’t checked out, you totally should look at!), and I had to fudge some things. We have really only had two instances of A-gold in the books, and information on what exactly goes on is very conflicted (see the differences in the Ars Arcanum wording and the Coppermind wording). So, that got me thinking: how does A-gold work?

 

Now, we have very little to go off of. But, let’s start with the basics. 
 

Gold is a temporal metal that shows you two alternate versions of yourself when burning it. Past that, it gets weird. These alternate selves don’t seem to be able to interact with you in any meaningful way, and don’t really exist. Now, you can sort of interact with them, as we saw with Vin reaching out to touch her gold shadow. Now, she also seemed to be controlling the shadows, in a way. Here’s a section from the book (chapter 27 for any of you keeping track):

Quote

She reached out with uncertain hands—one each—and touched herself on the faces, one each.

So there’s something weird there. The user also thinks through both thoughts, and intrinsically knows them. They can’t seem to communicate, but maybe they can see each other, given the whole touching thing that goes on in book one. It is very unclear. They also seem to no longer have their physical self anymore, as both of the instances seem to refer to splitting into two and being two people, not three. Do I have any idea how that would work if you are burning it for more that 15 seconds? Nope! But that’s what we have to work with

 

Now that we sorta kinda get how the shadows manifest, let’s talk about the shadows themselves. In the two instances we see them, the shadows appear to be alternative present selves, like if you were to essence stamp yourself. Now, here’s where things get inconsistent. The Ars Arcanum seems to suggest that you see your, and I quote, “past selves or alternate present selves” which, given the wording, seems to imply that you can either see an alternate present self or an unaltered past self. But given that that would be really rusting weird, let’s just say you can access alternate selves. Whether or not they can be younger than you are is kind of unclear (I seem to be repeating myself quite a bit).

So what of these alternate selves? Could they be anything? Theoretically, but with the stuff we have seen, they seem to be opposites of each other in some way, and seem to be very relevant to the moment. Vin saw a noble and a thief, Miles saw a vanisher and a lawman. Now, both of these people were very inexperienced with gold, so I’m sure you can stretch the capability of your shadows past just differences in currently relevant occupations. 
 

So, now that we’re sort of on the same page about what A-gold does, let’s unravel it a bit. Specifically, I will be looking at this from a lens of Intent, Identity, and Fortune, the three weirdest mechanics in the Cosmere.

Starting with Intent. Could you be conscously aware of what shadows want to summon, or where they manifest positionally to you? Would you have the ability to move the shadows independently of yourself, or have three or one self (either just you physically present and seeing out of your own eyes or your two gold shadows and you) present? I would say with savanthood, anything is possible, but to what degree could a normal Augur that isn’t ashamed of their very existence pull that off? I don’t know.

On to Identity. I think this is probably more relevant than Intent, as who you are affects  what your shadows could be. If you are sure of who you are, the shadows would likely be less variable than if you feel that you are the way you are now due to pure happenstance. To take that a step further, let’s put F-Aluminum into the mix. What happens when an augur stores identity? Personally, I think it would increase the variability of the shadows. Maybe one of them wasn’t even born an Augur! Now what would happen if they have access to an unsealed identitymind? Well, then they could increase their identity. What would that do to the shadows? If storing increases variability, tapping would decrease variability. Eventually, maybe gold shadows wouldn’t even appear! The possibilities are interesting for sure.

Now on to the last one: Fortune. Why do I bring this up? This is all about the past. Well, in a way, it’s about the future. The gold shadows seem to show people what they need to see, but what if you burn it for more than 15 seconds? What if you shadow up a fighter because you will be getting into a fight? This is certainly an interesting question. Personally, I think it is certainly plausible. Gold is really weird, and who chooses the shadows certainly isn’t the one burning the metal.

 

Well, what are you folks thoughts? Is there more potential with being an Augur than just getting nausea on command? Could you manipulate this realmic power to your own desires?

[Mistchemist16]

I think the highest potential of gold would be something like the movie Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. In that movie, one can use technology to find alternate  realities and borrow the skills of those selves, fighting or otherwise. I imagine that August with proper Intent and practice could do that. But just as in the movie, you’d have a harder time finding selves unlike you and may even have mental side effects, given what happens when you touch a gold shadow. But I don’t think you can travel to another timeline beyond that.

We also don’t know what happens if you flare or Duralumin gold. Malatium lets you see the Spiritual Realm when you flare it, as shown in Secret History. Empowering gold would probably do something similar but focused on either your life or an alternate self. However, flaring probably wouldn’t be enough for gold. You’d need Duralumin or Hemalurgy. Wonder what would happen if you spike doubled A-Gold (probably seeing the Soiritual Realm). F-copper would also be interesting for an August Twinborn.

Fortune would probably help with gold. by making you more aware if the Spiritual Realm and functioning as an alternative to Duralumin (imagine a Twinborn with A- Gold + F-Chromium). I think storing Identity would be of only limited use, since you’re mostly using the Spiritual Realm. I think it’s more likely the shadows would become blurry or nonexistent than of new people. You’d want more Spiritual presence, not less. But I could be wrong. I just think Intent or Firtune are more useful. But tapping Identity may work for boosting Spiritual presence

Ultimately, I think there is a fair bit of potential for gold because everyone thinks it’s useless and it’s really expensive to experiment on. I don’t even think most Twinborn would crack it, especially with a decent Feruchemical power. But I’d also like to think some Gold Misting would eventually figure it out, just because there is nothing else to distract them.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Koloss17]

53 minutes ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Ultimately, I think there is a fair bit of potential for gold because everyone thinks it’s useless and it’s really expensive to experiment on. I don’t even think most Twinborn would crack it, especially with a decent Feruchemical power. But I’d also like to think some Gold Misting would eventually figure it out, just because there is nothing else to distract them.

Now actually, economists/geologists correct me if I’m wrong, gold is really expensive due to the fake worth we give it as currency. In Scadrial, I don’t think there’s that type of association, so while it might be expensive from people not needing it, it wouldn’t cost a fortune.

[Mistchemist16]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Now actually, economists/geologists correct me if I’m wrong, gold is really expensive due to the fake worth we give it as currency. In Scadrial, I don’t think there’s that type of association, so while it might be expensive from people not needing it, it wouldn’t cost a fortune.

I did do some basic Googling. It seems like gold has a few specific things going for it. It’s easily recognizable for currency, generally looks good, ages well, and is just rare enough to be used but in demand. Most of these things are still true in Scadrial and gold is referenced as valuable to some extent. In AoL, Miles specifically needs a wealthy patron for more gold (though he does use a lot) and boxings were made of gold (Vin got her first taste of gold Allomancy using one). I’m also pretty sure that one AoL chapter states that using aluminum was like having gold plated guns or bullets, though that could be for our benefit as much as an actual in universe perspective

However, there is a big difference in how gold is perceived. In Era 1, gold was seems as a “high metal”, so it probably got a value boost from that. Of course, it would still be vastly overshadowed by atium, but gold was seen as special

Era 2 is really what would make gold drop. At that point, people would learn gold is useless for metallic arts, once Allomancy is effectively public knowledge. There may be some Allomantic metals that are more valuable. Aluminum would be before electrolysis and Wayne notes that bendalloy is hard to get. So maybe those metals would be more expensive, but gold still has most of the things we Earthlings could plausibly value. Not to mention a world that finds choice metals to be far more meaningful than we do.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/071114/why-gold-has-always-had-value.asp

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[Trusk'our]

2 hours ago, Mistchemist16 said:

I think the highest potential of gold would be something like the movie Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. In that movie, one can use technology to find alternate  realities and borrow the skills of those selves, fighting or otherwise. I imagine that August with proper Intent and practice could do that. But just as in the movie, you’d have a harder time finding selves unlike you and may even have mental side effects, given what happens when you touch a gold shadow. But I don’t think you can travel to another timeline beyond that.

Never watched the movie (though it sounds interesting), but I think that I agree along these lines; it may be possible to use gold Allomancy to pull off something like a Soulstamp, effectively turning yourself into an alternate version of yourself, but unlike Forgery the effects are solely mental in nature. So no turning yourself from a couch potato into a bodybuilder, though you may be able to give yourself a semblance of skills that another hypothetical version of yourself could have with enough practice and the right Intent. It may require more than Intent though, such as using Hemalurgy or duralumin to augment it.

Additionally, gold is expensive, burns fast, and combining that with the effects being purely mental, I think that this wouldn't be considered "overpowered" so to speak, and could therefore see it happening (I don't see it being unacceptable from a narrative viewpoint, that is).

Huh. Now I really want to see more Allomantic gold be experimented with! 

Actually, before reading this post I honestly considered A-gold to be basically worthless with the exception of Compounding. Now it may be one of the most fascinating metals.

Thank you for the fresh viewpoint @Koloss17, I love it!

I wonder if perhaps some other powers could be the same- underestimated, yet with secrets to be found? Say, Allomantic aluminum?

Edited April 19, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Gold is a temporal metal that shows you two alternate versions of yourself when burning it.

Note: I'm fairly certain you only get one Gold Shadow (at least at normal burn - we saw flared Malatium show something else so Flared or Duralumin Gold may do the same).

It's easy to miss/mistake (especially when the Malatium Shadows are similar but slightly different) but here's the relevant parts:

Spoiler

TFE Ch 27:

Quote

She looked up at Kelsier, took a breath, and burned gold.

She was in two places at once. She could see herself, and she could see herself.

One of her was a strange woman, changed and transformed from the girl she had always been. That girl had been careful and cautious—a girl who would never burn an unfamiliar metal based solely on the word of one man. This woman was foolish; she had forgotten many of the things that had let her survive so long. She drank from cups prepared by others. She fraternized with strangers. She didn’t keep track of the people around her. She was still far more careful than most people, but she had lost so much.

The other her was something she had always secretly loathed. A child, really. Thin to the point of scrawniness, she was lonely, hateful, and untrusting. She loved no one, and no one loved her. She always told herself, quietly, that she didn’t care. Was there something worth living for? There had to be. Life couldn’t be as pathetic as it seemed. Yet, it had to be. There wasn’t anything else.

Vin was both. She stood in two places, moving both bodies, being both girl and woman.

So one is clearly Vin, and one is her Gold Shadow. The "strange woman, . . .lost so much" part is her experiencing the thought of the Gold Shadow as it perceives a Vin who has learned to trust. The "secretly loathed. . . . wasn’t anything else" part is "current" Vin's thoughts reacting to the Shadow.

So, Vin-as-Mistborn and her reactions to Vin-as-Waif-Thief "Shadow" (a Vin that never learned confidence or trust) simultaneously with the Shadow's thoughts of Vin-as-Waif-Thief about what Vin-as-Mistborn has become. Most likely two versions of the "Present" had the past been different (not learning to trust in this case).

AoL Ch 15:

Quote

But gold was not completely useless. Just mostly so. Upon burning it, Miles split. The change was visible only to his own senses, but for a moment, he was two people, two versions of himself. One was the man he had been. The angry lawkeeper, growing more bitter by the day. He wore a white duster over rugged clothing, with tinted spectacles to shade his eyes against the harsh sun. Dark hair kept short and greased back. No hat. He’d always hated those.

The other man was the man he’d become. Dressed in the clothing of a city worker—buttoned shirt and suspenders over dirty trousers with fraying cuffs. He walked with a slouch. When had that begun?

He could see through both pairs of eyes, think both sets of thoughts. He was two people at once, and each one loathed the other. The lawkeeper was intolerant, angry, and frustrated. He hated anything that broke with the strict order of the law, and meted out harsh punishments with no mercy. He had a special loathing for someone who had once followed the law, but had turned his back upon it.

The robber, the Vanisher, hated that the lawkeeper let others choose his rules. There was really nothing sacred about the law. It was arbitrary, created by powerful men to help them hold power. The criminal knew that secretly, deep down, the lawkeeper understood this. He was severe toward criminals because he felt so impotent. Each day, life grew worse for the good people, the people who tried, and the laws did little to help them. 

Also only one Gold Shadow (more explicitly stated as "for a moment, he was two people, two versions of himself") where the thoughts are attributed in the quote. Also likely a Shadow of the present had Miles not forsaken his badge and started the Vanishers.

M:SH Ch 1:

Quote

Nothing changed, while everything changed. For to Kelsier’s eyes, two men now stood before him.

One was the immortal emperor who had dominated for a thousand years: an imposing figure with jet-black hair and a chest stuck through with two spears that he didn’t even seem to notice. Next to him stood a man with the same features—but a completely different demeanor. A figure cloaked in thick furs, nose and cheeks flush as if cold. His hair was tangled and windswept, his attitude jovial, smiling.

It was the same man.

Kelsier seeing a single Malatium Shadow - most likely a Past-Self of Rashek since the Malatium's Shadow's connection to the Well is what allows the flared Malatium to reveal the Shadow's surroundings:

Quote

In that moment, Kelsier flared the Eleventh Metal, and caught a glimpse of something new.

The Lord Ruler standing in a room—no, a cavern! The Lord Ruler stepped into a glowing pool and the world shifted around him, rocks crumbling, the room twisting, everything changing.

The vision vanished.

TFE Ch 36 - The section that makes this so confusing for most people. . .

Quote

The Eleventh Metal, its power sitting within her, forming an unfamiliar reserve. She looked up, glaring at the old man. This had better work. She burned the Eleventh Metal.

Nothing happened.

Vin struggled in frustration, her heart sinking. And then she saw him. Another man, standing right beside the Lord Ruler. Where had he come from? She hadn’t seen him enter.

He had a full beard and wore a thick, woolen outfit with a fur-lined cloak. It wasn’t rich clothing, but it was well constructed. He stood quietly, seeming…content. He smiled happily.

Vin cocked her head. There was something familiar about the man. His features looked very similar to those of the man who had killed Kelsier. However, this man was older and…more alive.

Vin turned to the side. There was another unfamiliar man beside her, a young nobleman. He was a merchant, from the looks of his suit—and a very wealthy one at that.

So, many people I know seem to think this is two Malatium Shadows of Rashek. But notice the "young nobleman" isn't standing next to Rashek. Vin is seeing Rashek's Malatium Shadow as a Terrisman before the events at the Well - then she turns her head and sees Kar's Malatium Shadow of the nobleman he was before becoming an Obligator or Inquisitor.

I don't know if you could exercise a skill or task (especially combat) while actively burning Gold since, unlike Atium Shadows, they don't seem to be semi-transparent and there is at least some interference with your normal senses while "experiencing" the Gold Shadow. But I could see it possibly being a way to "learn" from your alternate self - especially if Intent can affect how your Gold Shadow manifests (likely thinking about the branching point you want to "explore" as you burn Gold - e. g. if Zane had burned Gold while considering what he might have been like if he killed Straff and took over the Army before marching on Luthadel - he might have been able to experience that specific branching path's Shadow)

[Koloss17]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Note: I'm fairly certain you only get one Gold Shadow (at least at normal burn - we saw flared Malatium show something else so Flared or Duralumin Gold may do the same).

It's easy to miss/mistake (especially when the Malatium Shadows are similar but slightly different) but here's the relevant parts:

  Reveal hidden contents

TFE Ch 27:

So one is clearly Vin, and one is her Gold Shadow. The "strange woman, . . .lost so much" part is her experiencing the thought of the Gold Shadow as it perceives a Vin who has learned to trust. The "secretly loathed. . . . wasn’t anything else" part is "current" Vin's thoughts reacting to the Shadow.

So, Vin-as-Mistborn and her reactions to Vin-as-Waif-Thief "Shadow" (a Vin that never learned confidence or trust) simultaneously with the Shadow's thoughts of Vin-as-Waif-Thief about what Vin-as-Mistborn has become. Most likely two versions of the "Present" had the past been different (not learning to trust in this case).

AoL Ch 15:

Also only one Gold Shadow (more explicitly stated as "for a moment, he was two people, two versions of himself") where the thoughts are attributed in the quote. Also likely a Shadow of the present had Miles not forsaken his badge and started the Vanishers.

M:SH Ch 1:

Kelsier seeing a single Malatium Shadow - most likely a Past-Self of Rashek since the Malatium's Shadow's connection to the Well is what allows the flared Malatium to reveal the Shadow's surroundings:

TFE Ch 36 - The section that makes this so confusing for most people. . .

So, many people I know seem to think this is two Malatium Shadows of Rashek. But notice the "young nobleman" isn't standing next to Rashek. Vin is seeing Rashek's Malatium Shadow as a Terrisman before the events at the Well - then she turns her head and sees Kar's Malatium Shadow of the nobleman he was before becoming an Obligator or Inquisitor.

 

Darn it, you are totally right! I had my whole RP character built upon seeing two at once! Curses! 
 

 

[Treamayne]

24 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Darn it, you are totally right! I had my whole RP character built upon seeing two at once!

Well, you are "experiencing" two at once. It doesn't seem voluntary to feel and think both sets of thoughts, especially the "evaluation" of each other.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Well, what are you folks thoughts? Is there more potential with being an Augur than just getting nausea on command? Could you manipulate this realmic power to your own desires?

You black out at a party, then you make a gold shadow to see what you were doing or something. You suffer from amnesia - gold shadow to constantly remind you of who you were. IF you can use intent to determine what past you want to see. You last a fight and don't know why - gold shadow to show you that fight so you can see what mistakes you did.

I highly doubt you could learn martial skills or their abilities from your gold shadows, that's too much, too close to Forgery. A-gold and F-aluminum might be very useful in combination with Forgery, but A-gold alone doesn't look that useful. Until now. 

[Koloss17]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I highly doubt you could learn martial skills or their abilities from your gold shadows, that's too much, too close to Forgery. A-gold and F-aluminum might be very useful in combination with Forgery, but A-gold alone doesn't look that useful. Until now. 

Well, with a savant, anything is possible. I would say that if you are used to burning A-gold, you could probably integrate some instincts of your shadow, which could actually help in a fight.

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Well, with a savant, anything is possible. I would say that if you are used to burning A-gold, you could probably integrate some instincts of your shadow, which could actually help in a fight.

Keep in mind, savanthood isn't just a good thing. There are severe negative consequences in most cases of becoming a savant. And because of how A-gold lets you be 2 persons at once, I think it very plausible that A-gold savantism would result in severe personality disorder of some sort. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

 

[Koloss17]

Just now, alder24 said:

Keep in mind, savanthood isn't just a good thing. There are severe negative consequences in most cases of becoming a savant. And because of how A-gold lets you be 2 persons at once, I think it very plausible that A-gold savantism would result in severe personality disorder of some sort. 

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

 

Oh, I know. My savant character has severe memory issues, and it screws with them bad. They definitely have some cool quirks though!

[Mistchemist16]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Note: I'm fairly certain you only get one Gold Shadow (at least at normal burn - we saw flared Malatium show something else so Flared or Duralumin Gold may do the same).

I think thats a very real possibility. It depends on how you interpret the differences between gold and malatium. Atium’s effect. Refined Atium grants a more expansive view of the future than it would otherwise. That expansive could mean a burst of extra power more in line with Duralumin. However, it could also simply mean that you can see another target (more expansive, beyond yourself)

Given that malatium at a regular burn seems to work almost exactly the same as A-gold, I’d say the probability is high that flaring effectively does the same thing. So it would let you see a historical event, but for an alternate self. Duralumin might let you see the Spiritual Realm but only based on those alternate selves, in the same manner as Elend. Alternatively, duralumin may create visions like… (SA)

Spoiler

Dalinar’s in Stormlight Archive. Those visions use the Spiritual Realm and Cognitive Realm to basically create an AI simulation of an event. This would be more in keeping with gold, which is generally detailed in a way electrum and era 1 Atium are not. Even more so thanks to Kelsier’s time with flaring malatium. For the empowered gold, you would probably be cast as your alternate self, just as Dalinar took the place of historical figures. It would be among the most effective ways to travel to another reality. The scientific possibilites write themself…

Quote

Argent

How do visions in the cosmere work? And I'm thinking Realmatically.

Brandon Sanderson

So almost always [it's] glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. But you are often seeing it through the Cognitive, and so like a vision that...

So like the vision that Dalinar sees. What's going on is-- being pulled, and kind of stretched a little bit through the Realms, into the Spiritual Realm.  Where a Cognitive construct is adding a framework to seeds that are set in place.

Argent

So that you can kind of comprehend the Spiritual?

Brandon Sanderson

You can comprehend-- and also there's a little bit of a life to it. Meaning it can respond to you and things like this, to an extent. So imagine, it kind of works like an AI. Imagine there's some-- You've got that power in the Spiritual Realm and you're adding a framework to it, that it is shining through, and that is giving you the vision. Complicated, I know. Spiritual Realm is supposed to be weird, and we aren't supposed to quite comprehend it, but that's why we've got the Cognitive framework there.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

However, we don’t know exactly what effect Atium has on seeing through time beyond targeting other people. WoB did say replicating the Atium-Duralumin combo would be harder for electrum because there would be “more interference to fight through”. But I don’t know if that means you couldn’t see the Spiritual Realm altogether or if you would only get more limited/contradictory info (seeing multiple possibilites at once)

Quote

Wigginns

What would a Hemalurgic spike granting atium do for an Allomancer already able to burn atium? Does it function similarly to bronze, granting enhanced atium-ing? Along this line of thought, would enhancing electrum burning via spike be of any advantage?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike of something you have would enhance your ability, giving your more strength. With atium, more strength makes for a minimal edge--the length you can push out the atium shadows. However, there's a certain breaking point where you kind of crack the whole system, peer straight into the [Spiritual Realm], and kind of have a "It's full of stars" moment.

Electrum could reach this same moment, potentially, though there's more interference to fight through. Extra strength in electrum isn't going to be terribly useful up to that point.

Alsadius

Is that what happened when atium was burned with duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Footnote: In his original response Brandon mistakenly said burning atium and duralumin would cause the Allomancer to peer into the Cognitive Realm, rather than Spiritual Realm. He has since confirmed that this was a mistake.
/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 1, 2015)

 

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I don't know if you could exercise a skill or task (especially combat) while actively burning Gold since, unlike Atium Shadows, they don't seem to be semi-transparent and there is at least some interference with your normal senses while "experiencing" the Gold Shadow.

Good point. That sensory distortion is brutal and probably not solvable with just A-Gold. But maybe you could make fabrials to help filter out useless info. There are so many cool ways to do A-Gold fabrials! Which would also be fitting for my Everything, Everywhere, All at Once references.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Mistchemist16

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Mistchemist16 said:

Good point. That sensory distortion is brutal and probably not solvable with just A-Gold. But maybe you could make fabrials to help filter out useless info. There are so many cool ways to do A-Gold fabrials! Which would also be fitting for my Everything, Everywhere, All at Once references.

I very much would love more A-Gold in the books. Your reference to Everything, Everywhere, All at Once is how I often have viewed how it could be used. In fact a few years ago me and my group played a MAG where we let A-Gold be rolled for that exact effect giving Traits for my character.

My inspiration for that though was from Emperor's Soul and the use of Soul Stamping. An alternative life you could have lived with skills you could have developed. 

Spoiler

Also, depending on how much Renarin we see in SL5 we might get some more clues on what A-Gold can do considering how closely his use of Illumination on Moash was to A-Gold's effect 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by StanLemon

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

I'm so happy to see people discussing Gold and the less well-understood/talked-about metals, since recently I've been obsessing over what an A-Electrum savant would look like and be able to do. Now that Atium is functionally no longer a thing, A-Electrum doesn't have any obvious uses, a lot like A-Gold, save for some very specific situations. Could you train yourself to see fewer shadows so you could glean more information from specific ones? Could keeping an eye on them in a fight help you anticipate your own reactions ahead of time and change what you will do (like how Vin beat Zane)? Would they show you stumbling or getting injured so you could avoid doing the same? It's literally seeing the future, finding uses for it shouldn't be nearly this frustrating (but that's also why I love Brandon Sanderson). So, so many possibilities, even more questions, and regretfully few answers.

Electrum rant aside, almost everything said in this thread makes sense. The combination of A-Gold and Identity is especially interesting to me. Store 50% of your identity away, and you're likely to get far more varied and distant versions of yourself. Store 75%, and you might get a Gold Shadow that never Snapped, or never had similarly life-altering experiences, or lived such a different life and were so far removed from who you are at the moment that they might as well be a different person altogether. However, I feel that if you stored 100% of your identity, you'd get blurry or an Atium/Electrum-esque Shadow (Like how Mistchemist16 said) or you might not produce one at all since you'd effectively be blanking your spiritual concept of Identity, which is (albeit assumedly) the basis for your Gold Shadow. The same thing is true in the opposite direction, where Tapping Identity would result in the Shadow being more and more like yourself, until at some point (Probably Tapping around 200% but not necessarily) where your Shadow is just you, or again, there may be no Shadow at all (This is unlikely though).

As for the Everything Everywhere All At Once theory, I'm not entirely sure. It seems likely to me that you could borrow abilities/skills/knowledge from your Shadow through practice since we see in both instances of Gold being burned that the Allomancer has at least some level of instinctive/inherent knowledge of the Shadow's psyche, but those skills would be locked to only your mental capacity, and that could sometimes be problematic to utilize. For a real-world parallel, I used to be a gymnast a long time ago, and still have the exact muscle memory to do all the fancy flips and cartwheels that I was able to then; However, It's been long enough that my body has changed in enough ways that the muscle memory is no longer accurate, so anytime I try to recreate the flips now, what I experience is different from what my muscle memory says I should be experiencing, and that disconnect makes my brain panic and I just end up flailing mid-air and falling through the flip mid-way. For an in-world example... (SA)

Spoiler

Think how Veil's fabricated memories let her believe and act like she has years of experience in espionage and street work, but she hasn't actually, so when she tries to find information by visiting a bar and acting tough, she ends up embarrassing herself and only gets away with it because Stormlight burns the alcohol out of her system and lets her pretend it was an act.

I can imagine it leading to some pretty funny scenarios of Augurs using the skills of a life-long warrior in a fight, only to fail miserably because they don't have enough training or endurance to use those skills effectively. Still, it has many uses, so props for figuring it out!

Edited April 23, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[alder24]

@Koloss17 I've just found this WoB that you might find interesting in your theorizing about A-gold possibilities, SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Djarskublar

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

Brandon Sanderson

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is, simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Djarskublar

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

Brandon Sanderson

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

Djarskublar

So if they had Regrowth cast on them, would that do it?

Brandon Sanderson

*hems and haws for a second*

Djarskublar

A really, really big Regrowth, like in the middle of a Highstorm.

Brandon Sanderson

Hmmm, this, you are getting to the realm of plausibility at that point. I still don't think gold is the way to do it. I think you just get all that Investiture. It would become sapient by you sticking a whole bunch of Investiture in, and then you can bond to that. But it's not like people gain what you would have done. Does that make sense? That's just what's going to happen, is you're gonna, you can create a, potentially create a spren that way, but you are more likely to end up with something like Nightblood. But you could potentially create a spren, but I mean you're just gonna end up...

Djarskublar

So there are other, more optimal ways to do that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, go bond a spren. (evil grin of course)

Djarskublar

But you can't easily bond multiple, and if you did this you could maybe get multiple.

Brandon Sanderson

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like... Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar. So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

What I've taken from it is that you might be able to use A-gold to influence your spiritual Ideal and heal yourself to that new ideal, becoming that person form a gold shadow.

[Koloss17]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

@Koloss17 I've just found this WoB that you might find interesting in your theorizing about A-gold possibilities, SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

Djarskublar

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

Brandon Sanderson

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is, simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Djarskublar

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

Brandon Sanderson

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

Djarskublar

So if they had Regrowth cast on them, would that do it?

Brandon Sanderson

*hems and haws for a second*

Djarskublar

A really, really big Regrowth, like in the middle of a Highstorm.

Brandon Sanderson

Hmmm, this, you are getting to the realm of plausibility at that point. I still don't think gold is the way to do it. I think you just get all that Investiture. It would become sapient by you sticking a whole bunch of Investiture in, and then you can bond to that. But it's not like people gain what you would have done. Does that make sense? That's just what's going to happen, is you're gonna, you can create a, potentially create a spren that way, but you are more likely to end up with something like Nightblood. But you could potentially create a spren, but I mean you're just gonna end up...

Djarskublar

So there are other, more optimal ways to do that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, go bond a spren. (evil grin of course)

Djarskublar

But you can't easily bond multiple, and if you did this you could maybe get multiple.

Brandon Sanderson

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like... Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar. So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

What I've taken from it is that you might be able to use A-gold to influence your spiritual Ideal and heal yourself to that new ideal, becoming that person form a gold shadow.

Hmmmmm interesting, interesting. No, you’re totally right. Gold compounding may be more interesting than I originally thought…

[.....]

I think that if you had a gold and F aluminum you could store your entire identity in your aluminum mind while Burning Gold and then since your identity would be gone you could absorb the entire identity of your gold Shadow which would probably be the same as your normal gold Shadow because you're still you technically or once you had a shadow you could store identity and then you could fully become the other you personally I think would be pretty interesting 

[JustQuestin2004]

On 15/09/2023 at 7:42 AM, ..... said:

I think that if you had a gold and F aluminum you could store your entire identity in your aluminum mind while Burning Gold and then since your identity would be gone you could absorb the entire identity of your gold Shadow which would probably be the same as your normal gold Shadow because you're still you technically or once you had a shadow you could store identity and then you could fully become the other you personally I think would be pretty interesting 

I was thinking about that combination. I've seen the not-technically-canon-but-whatever MAG Twinborn combinations with A-Gold and F-Aluminum being called a Vessel. So what I was thinking is, either through Savantism or Resonance probably both, you could allow a Gold Shadow to possess you by storing all of your Identity away. Here's an example.

Mr. Vessel is trying to get through a locked door that they have no key to, so they focus on that door and their need to get through as much as they can, then Burn Gold, which may result in a Gold Shadow that might have lived the life of someone who can get through that door somehow, either by being an expert lockpicker or by being a really carpenter and knowing how to unhinge a door. As the Gold Shadow emerges from Mr. Vessel he stores all of his Identity away and touches the Gold Shadow, so instead of pain the Gold Shadow is then able to possess your Identity-less body for a time and use their knowledge to help Mr. Vessel get through the door.

Does that make sense? 

[Trusk'our]

On 9/20/2023 at 0:30 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I was thinking about that combination. I've seen the not-technically-canon-but-whatever MAG Twinborn combinations with A-Gold and F-Aluminum being called a Vessel. So what I was thinking is, either through Savantism or Resonance probably both, you could allow a Gold Shadow to possess you by storing all of your Identity away. Here's an example.

Mr. Vessel is trying to get through a locked door that they have no key to, so they focus on that door and their need to get through as much as they can, then Burn Gold, which may result in a Gold Shadow that might have lived the life of someone who can get through that door somehow, either by being an expert lockpicker or by being a really carpenter and knowing how to unhinge a door. As the Gold Shadow emerges from Mr. Vessel he stores all of his Identity away and touches the Gold Shadow, so instead of pain the Gold Shadow is then able to possess your Identity-less body for a time and use their knowledge to help Mr. Vessel get through the door.

Does that make sense? 

Interesting. I think that it would be less of a possession and more of a temporary mental overwrite, similar to- The Emperor's Soul spoilers;

Spoiler

Soulforgery. Honestly, it would be really cool to see Scadrial's system having a way to access such an ability, and I think that this Twinborn or something similar may be able to pull it off.

 

[Atlas333]

 

On 9/19/2023 at 10:30 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

I was thinking about that combination. I've seen the not-technically-canon-but-whatever MAG Twinborn combinations with A-Gold and F-Aluminum being called a Vessel. So what I was thinking is, either through Savantism or Resonance probably both, you could allow a Gold Shadow to possess you by storing all of your Identity away.

I actually really like this idea and think it could be possible. I'm just not sure if a gold shadow would "possess" an identity-less person. (In fact, storing identity while burning gold would probably do weird things to your gold shadow or probably just make it vanish/fade)

A while back, I made a similar theory to achieve similar results with a slightly different method. You can read it here if you like (although this thread is a much better exploration of the ideas, there's really no reason to). https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/139216-soul-stamping-via-the-metallic-arts/#comment-1540086

I'll just summarize the important bits.

To start, I was assuming that when you burn gold, you have access to your gold shadow's identity (this is because when you see a gold shadow, you have access to their thoughts and point of view, so for all intents and purposes, you are your gold shadow, in my opinion.)

Then, while burning gold, you store your gold shadow's identity in an aluminum mind. Then, when you need that identity's skills (like with the door example from earlier), you tap that identity, and it temporarily overwrites your identity like a soul stamp. (Although now, after reading this thread, I agree you'd probably have to store your original identity to make this work).

 

So, in short, I agree, but I think that you might have to do weird identity things via feruchemy and that gold allomancy wouldn't achieve the desired outcome even if you stored your identity while burning gold. 

I think the biggest question for this theoretical soulstamping, is there any way to change what gold shadow you see? I'm in the camp that you always see the one gold shadow that's most opposed to your current life because that's what we see in the books. The only way to change this gold shadow is through significant life decisions. This severely limits the usefulness of this ability as you're essentially limited to one essence mark. But could there be methods to get around this limitation? 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Atlas333