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Voidbinding Theory


cometaryorbit

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TL;DR: I think Voidbinding is the reverse of a normal Radiant bond. In a normal Radiant bond, the human actively uses the powers; in Voidbinding, the spren uses the powers through the human.

Renarin

Renarin's visions are very strange because they're not a power he uses with Intent. Its possible to have subconscious Intent to use a power you don't understand, especially to survive (like Kaladin redirecting arrows or Vin burning traces of pewter), but that's still a basic Intent to survive. Renarin's visions happen even if he actively doesn't want them to.

Also, even now when he has more control, he has to ask Glys to replay the vision. It's not like Shallan Lightweaving - Pattern can help her (like when Shallan attaches an illusion to Pattern) but it's still very much Shallan using the power, with Shallan's Intent.

So it appears that Glys is the one actively using the power, and it's Glys's Intent that is relevant.

Ars Arcanum

In the Ars Arcanum, Khriss describes Voidbinding as "cousin to the Old Magic". That always struck me as a bizarre thing to say, since the Old Magic isn't really an Invested Art per se, it's just the Nightwatcher (and maybe Cultivation) messing with people.

But from this perspective, it makes sense - in both the Old Magic and Voidbinding, the spren is the one actively using the power; the human is a necessary part of it, but not really active.

Other Possible Examples

I was going to say that Death Rattles are likely Voidbinding - future sight due to an Unmade acting through a human. But this WoB looks like there's no Voidbinding on screen in WoK or WoR, which does argue against it. It's still possible, though, because it's certainly not pointed out as Voidbinding.

I think it's more likely, though, that the Death Rattles, the Thrill, and Ashertmarn's revelry effect aren't Voidbinding by themselves - but can be a pathway to access Voidbinding. When Nergaoul's Thrill allows a bunch of voidspren to possess the Sadeas army, that might be Voidbinding, even if the basic Thrill effect isn't. That would also fit with how Voidbinding in culture is presented as this dangerous temptation - if fairly common effects like the Thrill can be a pathway to it, that makes sense.

Yelig-nar might also be Voidbinding. I am not sure if the human host is really using the Surges, or if Yelig-nar himself is. Amaram, at the point we see him fight Kaladin, appears pretty taken over, so it's hard to tell. We'd need a PoV from a Yelig-nar host, or a WoB, to distinguish.

The Voidbinding Chart and the Ten Levels

I'm not sure if the "ten levels of Voidbinding" mentioned in the Ars Arcanum are just the warped Surge symbols we see on the Voidbinding chart (in which case, why are they called "levels"?) or ten kinds of Voidbinding originating from the nine Unmade + one other thing (maybe Enlightened Spren or Odium himself)?

If they're tied to the Unmade, then do the Surge-based symbols mean each Unmade is linked to one of the Surges (presumably lacking Adhesion)? Possibly Cognitive/Spiritual interpretations of them, like Nergaoul's rage being Division based, Sja-Anat's effect being Progression based, or Ashertmarn's effect being Cohesion on a cognitive or Spiritual level, softening minds or souls to make them malleable?

Edited by cometaryorbit
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That certainly seems to explain the parallel drawn to the Old Magic if the spren is holding a significant amount of the power, and it fits with Odium’s Intent being unwilling to share or give freely. Although it’s unrelated, it sounds a bit like a supercharged aviar bond.

My impression was that; since it’s called Voidbinding, the chart is full of symmetry, and it has almost all the same links/pairings as Surgebinding, it is a mix of Odium and Honour (possibly Cultivation as well). This could mean the Unmade and voidspren aren’t the direct sources since they are just Odium (although I’m not entirely certain about the Unmade in this regard).

One thing I’ve noticed is that Odium’s magic often seems to involve granting knowledge/understanding: nightform and alt-Truthwatcher granting futuresight, envoyform granting language, Moelach granting insight from other times, Sja-anat “enlightening”, the Fused having an intimate understanding of their Surge. Perhaps this will be a major part of what a Voidbinding spren grants?

 

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure if the "ten levels of Voidbinding" mentioned in the Ars Arcanum are just the warped Surge symbols we see on the Voidbinding chart (in which case, why are they called "levels"?) or ten kinds of Voidbinding originating from the nine Unmade + one other thing (maybe Enlightened Spren or Odium himself)?

If they're tied to the Unmade, then do the Surge-based symbols mean each Unmade is linked to one of the Surges (presumably lacking Adhesion)? Possibly Cognitive/Spiritual interpretations of them, like Nergaoul's rage being Division based, Sja-Anat's effect being Progression based, or Ashertmarn's effect being Cohesion on a cognitive or Spiritual level, softening minds or souls to make them malleable?

The “ten levels” might just be a term used instead of calling them Orders, since there are no official Voidbinding groups, yet. Also, there is a WoB saying that the Unmade roughly match up to the Surgebinding Orders (except Bondsmith), rather than the Surges.

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2 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

That certainly seems to explain the parallel drawn to the Old Magic if the spren is holding a significant amount of the power, and it fits with Odium’s Intent being unwilling to share or give freely. Although it’s unrelated, it sounds a bit like a supercharged aviar bond.

My impression was that; since it’s called Voidbinding, the chart is full of symmetry, and it has almost all the same links/pairings as Surgebinding, it is a mix of Odium and Honour (possibly Cultivation as well). This could mean the Unmade and voidspren aren’t the direct sources since they are just Odium (although I’m not entirely certain about the Unmade in this regard).

Huh, that's a good thought.

It actually might not be completely unrelated to Aviar bonds. We know an Aviar bond is the same thing Realmatically as a spren bond. Given that at least some Aviar can use their powers unbonded (the "coppercloud" type hide minds near their trees when nesting), and that Dusk doesn't actively do anything to activate the "visions of death" power - it's automatic - they could be the same kind of mechanism with the Aviar as spren-equivalent being the "active partner".

Though the Aviar also has a symbiotic bond with a parasite to provide the power, which makes the situation more complex.

I don't think Aviar are of Odium (they seem to be a Pre-Shattering magic that has become aligned to Autonomy). But the mechanism is possibly the same.

I think Adolin and Maya might also be forming a Nahel bond that's in some sense reversed. Adolin "gives strength" to Maya, rather than Maya giving powers to Adolin, and Maya as a Shardblade is already in the Physical Realm - she doesn't need an anchor in the Physical, she needs restored Cognitive sapience.

I wonder if Adolin will get abilities relating to being pulled more into the Cognitive (ability to see hidden spren like Rock? Touch spren like Lift?)

I don't think Adolin will become a Voidbinder exactly - unless Maya gets Enlightened by Sja-anat or modified by Ba-Ado-Mishram, which is totally possible in SA5 - but the mechanism might be similar.

--

Yeah, I do think Voidbinding is likely Odium+Honor, but I don't think Unmade are actually pure Odium. They were something else first before Odium Unmade them.

It's possible that regular voidspren - as opposed to Unmade or Enlightened spren - don't do Voidbinding for that reason. I'll have to reread those parts of RoW to look for hints with Ulim etc.

Edited by cometaryorbit
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4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Adolin and Maya might also be forming a Nahel bond that's in some sense reversed. Adolin "gives strength" to Maya, rather than Maya giving powers to Adolin, and Maya as a Shardblade is already in the Physical Realm - she doesn't need an anchor in the Physical, she needs restored Cognitive sapience.

I always figured Adolin was just slowly replacing the bond that was broken. Maya isn't whole enough to grant any magic, but Adolin bonding with her is gradually undoing some of the damage.

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

modified by Ba-Ado-Mishram

Ooo, is this a different theory poking through?

4 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah, I do think Voidbinding is likely Odium+Honor, but I don't think Unmade are actually pure Odium. They were something else first before Odium Unmade them.

It's possible that regular voidspren - as opposed to Unmade or Enlightened spren - don't do Voidbinding for that reason. I'll have to reread those parts of RoW to look for hints with Ulim etc.

Yeah, that's why I expressed uncertainty. The question is if the Unmade were fully converted to Odium or not.

I figure voidspren grant pure Odium magic instead, the forms of power don't really have any relation to the Surges but are Rosharan magic. Although, we haven't seen the sapient voidspren bond, I'd like to see that.

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12 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Ooo, is this a different theory poking through?

Yeah, that's why I expressed uncertainty. The question is if the Unmade were fully converted to Odium or not.

I figure voidspren grant pure Odium magic instead, the forms of power don't really have any relation to the Surges but are Rosharan magic. Although, we haven't seen the sapient voidspren bond, I'd like to see that.

Not a full theory  ... just BAM's imprisonment has something to do with how deadeyes exist in the first place, so freeing her might either alter them immediately/directly, or BAM after being freed might have the Connection to actively do something to change deadeyed.

I don't know if the forms of power are completely different from Surges (envoyform language ability seems similar to Dalinar's) but I don't think they're Voidbinding either, because of the post-WoR "you haven't seen Voidbinding yet" WoB - we saw stormform powers heavily in the final battle of WoR.

I think forms of power are Odium hacking the natural gemheart/spren bond magic of Roshar with his own spren, not exactly a full on Invested Art. They likely have some Surgebinding-ish abilities (like envoyform languages) and some Voidbinding-ish abilities (nightform future sight?) without actually being either.

.

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10 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

just BAM's imprisonment has something to do with how deadeyes exist in the first place, so freeing her might either alter them immediately/directly, or BAM after being freed might have the Connection to actively do something to change deadeyed.

I'm pretty sure BAM was some sort of primal part of Roshar with capturing her breaking or damaging the connection of everything to Roshar. 

15 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think forms of power are Odium hacking the natural gemheart/spren bond magic of Roshar with his own spren, not exactly a full on Invested Art. They likely have some Surgebinding-ish abilities (like envoyform languages) and some Voidbinding-ish abilities (nightform future sight?) without actually being either.

Yeah it seems like he's just abusing some innate ecology, maybe super powering it with his voidspren

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7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know if the forms of power are completely different from Surges (envoyform language ability seems similar to Dalinar's) but I don't think they're Voidbinding either, because of the post-WoR "you haven't seen Voidbinding yet" WoB - we saw stormform powers heavily in the final battle of WoR.

I think forms of power are Odium hacking the natural gemheart/spren bond magic of Roshar with his own spren, not exactly a full on Invested Art. They likely have some Surgebinding-ish abilities (like envoyform languages) and some Voidbinding-ish abilities (nightform future sight?) without actually being either.

Well yeah; it’s not Surgebinding, it’s not Voidbinding, it’s Odium’s own. He’s part of Roshar now so he wouldn’t be hacking the natural system, he gets his own part of it (although most of the other stuff is hacks). I would call it an Invested Art because they get active magical powers, unlike normal forms. As for the abilities: language comprehension is a pretty generic cosmere magic, and futuresight seems to be very common for Odium magic, Voidbinding or not.

Anyway, back on topic, I think now that warlight’s a thing, Honour’s splintered and Odium’s under new management, the Investitures will start to blend more and we’ll see more mixed spren, at some point.

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14 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I don't know if the forms of power are completely different from Surges (envoyform language ability seems similar to Dalinar's) but I don't think they're Voidbinding either, because of the post-WoR "you haven't seen Voidbinding yet" WoB - we saw stormform powers heavily in the final battle of WoR.

I think forms of power are Odium hacking the natural gemheart/spren bond magic of Roshar with his own spren, not exactly a full on Invested Art. They likely have some Surgebinding-ish abilities (like envoyform languages) and some Voidbinding-ish abilities (nightform future sight?) without actually being either.

I agree, I don't think Fused and Regals are Odium's pure invested art. Their eyes are red after all, which might indicate Corrupted investiture. But Odium's color is mostly gold or black violet. That's why I agree Odium is hacking the Honor and Cultivation's invested arts with his own Voidsprens and powered by his Voidlight, which is basically corruption. Kaladin, after Teft death, had mostly golden eyes with some red in it, seems like in that moment Kaladin was closer to pure Odium's invested art than Fused/Regals are.

Spoiler

FirstSelector

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Argent.

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Argent.

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Argent.

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Argent.

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

On 1.04.2023 at 5:18 AM, cometaryorbit said:

I don't think Unmade are actually pure Odium. They were something else first before Odium Unmade them.

They're definitely not. The Sibling, during their Unmaking, was resonating in the Rhythm of War. Likely all Unmades resonate in rhythms of Odium+Honor or Odium+Cultivation. Or maybe, in the case of the Sibling, it was because they were not fully Unmade yet, and they would be resonating in Rhythm of Odium after it was done.

Edited by alder24
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