It's Not Just Renarin - Truthwatchers Could All See the Future

[cometaryorbit]

I'm actually baffled by the Renarin thunderclast healing thing. I thought Regrowth was supposed to be weaker than default Radiant healing, the point is that it applies to others. But Renarin's healing seems way better than Shallan's 3rd Ideal healing (the crossbow bolt through the head is a significant impairment for her). Kaladin does heal really fast from a cut to the spine early in RoW, but he's almost 4th ideal then.

So I dont know if Renarin is somehow stacking Regrowth on top of base Radiant healing, if the nature of Glys's corruption/Enlightenment makes healing work better somehow (like the bond is accessing Renarin's perfected self more efficiently, like the visions of Adolin/Moash?), if Renarin is also near 4th ideal (I kind of doubt it), or some combination.

[Jn819]

11 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm actually baffled by the Renarin thunderclast healing thing. I thought Regrowth was supposed to be weaker than default Radiant healing, the point is that it applies to others. But Renarin's healing seems way better than Shallan's 3rd Ideal healing (the crossbow bolt through the head is a significant impairment for her). Kaladin does heal really fast from a cut to the spine early in RoW, but he's almost 4th ideal then.

So I dont know if Renarin is somehow stacking Regrowth on top of base Radiant healing, if the nature of Glys's corruption/Enlightenment makes healing work better somehow (like the bond is accessing Renarin's perfected self more efficiently, like the visions of Adolin/Moash?), if Renarin is also near 4th ideal (I kind of doubt it), or some combination.

I'm pretty sure it's the compounding of Regrowth with Radiant base healing. I'm not sure if that's something every Edgedancer and Truthwatcher can do though or if it's just "Enlightened" Mistspren who grant that ability. My guess is they all can, not just Renarin.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Jn819 said:

Glys said it would fear Renarin. I'm not sure if it knew he was a Truthwatcher, that his spren was Enlightened, or what. Maybe it thought he was a Lightweaver who was about to Soulcast it.

My guess is that it had just taken too much of a beating already and saw that Renarin still had enough power to finish it off, so it might as well give up and "die" (as much as any Fused dies) now.

The question is why did thunderclast die as soon as Renarin shined a light at him? That's too easy. I think you've missed an important part of the quote at the beginning, as soon as Renarion showed up, the thunderclast stepped back in fear. It feared Renarin, Truthwatcher, for some reason. What is so special about this light that made him go away?  Was that some kind of weird Regrowth+Illumination combo, using light to "heal" stone back to its original form, banishing Voidspren within it? I doubt it is just fear of soulcasting, or it mismatched Renarin's order or whatever.

[cometaryorbit]

I wonder if the Thunderclast recognized that Renarin was Enlightened and thought that meant Sja-anat was fighting on the other side... but Odium still doesn't know that a year later, so probably not.

[Jn819]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The question is why did thunderclast die as soon as Renarin shined a light at him? That's too easy. I think you've missed an important part of the quote at the beginning, as soon as Renarion showed up, the thunderclast stepped back in fear. It feared Renarin, Truthwatcher, for some reason. What is so special about this light that made him go away?  Was that some kind of weird Regrowth+Illumination combo, using light to "heal" stone back to its original form, banishing Voidspren within it? I doubt it is just fear of soulcasting, or it mismatched Renarin's order or whatever.

Fair point. Maybe something about a Truthwatcher would let Renarin "heal" its spirit back to its singer shape, thus preventing it from forming a thunderclast body again? IDK, that seems like a stretch, but I don't see what else would frighten it.

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

I’ve always thought thunderclasts are a kind of frankenspren; a person and a chasm fiend mashed together. If so I reckon a gold shadow like we know Renarin can do would give it very literal cognitive dissonance and possibly be torturous. So that could be what happened.

Edited May 22, 2023 by in Truth,watcher of tv

[alder24]

6 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I’ve always thought thunderclasts are a kind of frankenspren; a person and a chasm fiend mashed together. If so I reckon a gold shadow like we know Renarin can do would give it very literal cognitive dissonance and possibly be torturous. So that could be what happened.

But we didn't see any shadow like in the case of Moash. There was just light.

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But we didn't see any shadow like in the case of Moash. There was just light.

Wouldn’t necessarily have to be visible to others, or a person shadow could be projected inside the stone body and not be seen from the outside. I dunno, just a thought.

[teknopathetic]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:02 PM, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Hmm, it seems really unlikely to me that such a useful ability of one of the Orders would become so heavily taboo. I interpret the enlightened Truthwatcher access to future sight as them being given a glimpse at Odium’s futuresight, which Honour lacks. I don’t think the gem archive Truthwatcher would be so scared if it was a regular occurrence for them. It’s possible it was a vision from Cultivation directly, warning off the consequences.

 

I can see Cultivation wanting to shut down foresight. Cultivation seems to use foresight better than most shards and to plan quite far into the future. If there were many humans on her team running around with foresight, then it would be harder to stay in control of her plans. As we saw with Renarin, a truthwatcher with foresight can cause A LOT of ripple effects in shardic machinations. 

If I were Cultivation, I wouldn't want people around my team causing any ripples whatsoever. Starting a cultural belief ghat foresight is always evil might be the best way to reduce future-sight reverb. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Jn819]

10 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I’ve always thought thunderclasts are a kind of frankenspren; a person and a chasm fiend mashed together. If so I reckon a gold shadow like we know Renarin can do would give it very literal cognitive dissonance and possibly be torturous. So that could be what happened.

The implication I got was more that they're just really twisted Fused. Kind of like how Shallan got the impression that Re-Shephir (the Midnight Mother) had once been human.

3 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Wouldn’t necessarily have to be visible to others, or a person shadow could be projected inside the stone body and not be seen from the outside. I dunno, just a thought.

From what we've seen of his powers, I don't think that's how it works. He can see visions himself that no one else can see, or he can create illusions everyone can see. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Kaladin could also see the gold shadow thing of Moash, right?) Thunderclasts don't have eyes in their chest cavity or anything.

15 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I can see Cultivation wanting to shut down foresight. Cultivation seems to use foresight better than most shards and to plan quite far into the future. If there were many humans on her team running around with foresight, then it would be harder to stay in control of her plans. As we saw with Renarin, a truthwatcher with foresight can cause A LOT of ripple effects in shardic machinations. 

If I were Cultivation, I wouldn't want people around my team causing any ripples whatsoever. Starting a cultural belief ghat foresight is always evil might be the best way to reduce future-sight reverb. 

I like that hypothesis. It's also possible Honor himself is who restricted them, much like Bondsmiths were restricted, and those restrictions weakened as he was already going crazy (dying?) at the time of the Recreance.

[JohnnyKaizen]

21 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

If there were many humans on her team running around with foresight, then it would be harder to stay in control of her plans. As we saw with Renarin, a truthwatcher with foresight can cause A LOT of ripple effects in shardic machinations. 

This brings up the fact that Cultivation foresaw that Renarin would, in fact, gain future sight..thereby blinding Odium...but also steered Taravangian and Szeth and Rayse all to exactly where she wanted them to be. And, did allm of this, in spite of Renarin's futuresight abilities.

Something is real weird (and massively OP) about Cultivation's ability to orchestrate that 4500 years in advance. And at first, I agreed with (when i read it) TOdium that Cultivation has "no idea" what she'd done by helping him to ascend. But now I think that Ol TOdium doesn't have the least clue of what her ideas are.

[teknopathetic]

7 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

This brings up the fact that Cultivation foresaw that Renarin would, in fact, gain future sight..thereby blinding Odium...but also steered Taravangian and Szeth and Rayse all to exactly where she wanted them to be. And, did allm of this, in spite of Renarin's futuresight abilities.

Something is real weird (and massively OP) about Cultivation's ability to orchestrate that 4500 years in advance. And at first, I agreed with (when i read it) TOdium that Cultivation has "no idea" what she'd done by helping him to ascend. But now I think that Ol TOdium doesn't have the least clue of what her ideas are.

That’s why I firmly believe that Cultivation was meaningfully involved in bringing about Honour’s death. Honours death allowed a lot to change, and maybe his death was used to fertilize changes that saw to be beneficial. GivenCultivations intent, the 10,000 years of stagnation must have been quite hard for Cultivation to handle. Cultivation clearly wants something mind boggling new, and it just seems like Odium had some help in getting rid of Honour once and for all (re: but WE killed you!) 

If cultivation saw that killing Honour would let them finally replace Rayze, then wouldn’t she do it? Especially considering her intent: reap to sow. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by teknopathetic

[Jn819]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

That’s why I firmly believe that Cultivation was meaningfully involved in bringing about Honour’s death. Honours death allowed a lot to change, and maybe his death was used to fertilize changes that saw to be beneficial. GivenCultivations intent, the 10,000 years of stagnation must have been quite hard for Cultivation to handle. Cultivation clearly wants something mind boggling new, and it just seems like Odium had some help in getting rid of Honour once and for all (re: but WE killed you!) 

If cultivation saw that killing Honour would let them finally replace Rayze, then wouldn’t she do it? Especially considering her intent: reap to sow. 

That hadn't occurred to me, but it makes sense. Tanavast might have been almost as bad as Preservation about not wanting people to change (their minds).

[Bigmikey357]

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised. 

[Jn819]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised. 

Wait is this confirmed? She certainly likes looking human, unless that's just to make the Rosharans less uncomfortable in her presence.

[The_Milkgod]

3 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Wait is this confirmed? She certainly likes looking human, unless that's just to make the Rosharans less uncomfortable in her presence.

Pretty sure it was confirmed in a WoB. 

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised. 

This has never popped in my head, interesting. i wonder what other implications her being a dragon could have =. 

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Jn819 said:

That hadn't occurred to me, but it makes sense. Tanavast might have been almost as bad as Preservation about not wanting people to change (their minds).

Tanavest did become more focused on keeping oath rather than on their meaning before his death.

4 hours ago, Jn819 said:

Wait is this confirmed? She certainly likes looking human, unless that's just to make the Rosharans less uncomfortable in her presence.

Yes, Koravellium Avast was a dragon, if her name wasn't an obvious clue for you

Spoiler

asmodeus

In Words of Radiance, Hoid says that there's only one person as old as him around, and seems to be referring to Cultivation's vessel. In Rhythm of War, he mentions there's a dragon on Roshar.

Are these two individuals the same, or are they separate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. These two are the same.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

 

11 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised. 

I don't think being immortal is a considerable factor when handling a Shard, it's all about their mind, how expanded their mind is, how wise they are. Dragons might have an advantage here too, making them better vessels. Dragons might also have naturally greater Fortune than humans, making them better at predicting the future as Shards.

Spoiler

ncmagic97

Dragons are often depicted as much more intelligent and/or powerful than humans. Are dragons in the Cosmere better equipped to handle the power or psychological influence of becoming the Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that... RAFO. That's not where I thought you were going to go with that, so I was planning to answer a different question. The one that you asked I will say RAFO to. 

Adam Horne

Do you want to tell the chat what question you thought they were going to ask?

Brandon Sanderson

They are better suited toward long lifespans, which makes them... But I would not say that a dragon in the Cosmere is born more wise than a human.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

 

[Bigmikey357]

On 5/24/2023 at 8:29 AM, alder24 said:

Tanavest did become more focused on keeping oath rather than on their meaning before his death.

Yes, Koravellium Avast was a dragon, if her name wasn't an obvious clue for you

  Hide contents

asmodeus

In Words of Radiance, Hoid says that there's only one person as old as him around, and seems to be referring to Cultivation's vessel. In Rhythm of War, he mentions there's a dragon on Roshar.

Are these two individuals the same, or are they separate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. These two are the same.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 22, 2020)

 

I don't think being immortal is a considerable factor when handling a Shard, it's all about their mind, how expanded their mind is, how wise they are. Dragons might have an advantage here too, making them better vessels. Dragons might also have naturally greater Fortune than humans, making them better at predicting the future as Shards.

  Hide contents

ncmagic97

Dragons are often depicted as much more intelligent and/or powerful than humans. Are dragons in the Cosmere better equipped to handle the power or psychological influence of becoming the Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that... RAFO. That's not where I thought you were going to go with that, so I was planning to answer a different question. The one that you asked I will say RAFO to. 

Adam Horne

Do you want to tell the chat what question you thought they were going to ask?

Brandon Sanderson

They are better suited toward long lifespans, which makes them... But I would not say that a dragon in the Cosmere is born more wise than a human.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

 

We do know from the examples of the Heralds and from Vasher and even Hoid that humans aren't especially equipped for immortality and that is a problem a Shard has to particularly deal with. I don't believe wisdom has all that much to do with being a Vessel. It's more about compatibility with the Intent and the ability to resist Shardic pressure. But even if wisdom is a determining factor when it comes to being a Vessel and Humans are just as capable as Dragons at managing the immense power of a Shard in that way, having a body that is naturally immortal has to be considered as one less thing to deal with.  A Vessel with a mind that isn't crumbling from the ravages of advanced age is by default better able to cope with all the difficulties with the position than one that is.

[Jn819]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We do know from the examples of the Heralds and from Vasher and even Hoid that humans aren't especially equipped for immortality and that is a problem a Shard has to particularly deal with. I don't believe wisdom has all that much to do with being a Vessel. It's more about compatibility with the Intent and the ability to resist Shardic pressure. But even if wisdom is a determining factor when it comes to being a Vessel and Humans are just as capable as Dragons at managing the immense power of a Shard in that way, having a body that is naturally immortal has to be considered as one less thing to deal with.  A Vessel with a mind that isn't crumbling from the ravages of advanced age is by default better able to cope with all the difficulties with the position than one that is.

You definitely have a point in the first section. However, we see from RoW that Taravangian was able to think clearly as soon as he Ascended, despite Ascending on possibly his stupidest day ever. I think that makes it clear that at least real world aging problems (which were partly at play) don't factor into it. I don't think that's what you were implying with your last sentence, but I wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Jn819
Swipe text typo. Swypo?

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

On 23/05/2023 at 1:12 AM, Jn819 said:

The implication I got was more that they're just really twisted Fused. Kind of like how Shallan got the impression that Re-Shephir (the Midnight Mother) had once been human.

Yeah, their heads are the shape of chasmfiend heads and I'm fairly sure they were made to counter the fiends, so I figured they were Fused crossed with a chasmfiend soul. Either way, being faced with the reality of that situation would be traumatic.

On 23/05/2023 at 1:12 AM, Jn819 said:

From what we've seen of his powers, I don't think that's how it works. He can see visions himself that no one else can see, or he can create illusions everyone can see. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Kaladin could also see the gold shadow thing of Moash, right?) Thunderclasts don't have eyes in their chest cavity or anything.

Well these things usually work on a level beyond literal sight so I just meant any manifestation might have popped up next to the core of the thunderclast, obscured by rock, but still very real to the spren. Also, I don't think we should assume limitations based only on what we've seen so far.

 

On 24/05/2023 at 10:02 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

Well Cultivation is a Dragon, naturally immortal and thus probably better able to deal with the effects a Shard imposes on its Vessels.  If she's better able to wield Fortune then color me not surprised.

Are they immortal, or just very long lived? Hoid's letter to Frost says: "Though, as you are now essentially immortal...". Which suggests that it's a later development for Frost, not a natural state.

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Are they immortal, or just very long lived? Hoid's letter to Frost says: "Though, as you are now essentially immortal...". Which suggests that it's a later development for Frost, not a natural state.

Or Brandon is just being tricky, since he has already said there are multiple definitions for "immortal" in the Cosmere. WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.

Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)

Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)

Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)

Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)

Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)

Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)

Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)

And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.

Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of Cognitive Shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Why does Hoid in his letter to Frost say, "as you are now essentially immortal"? To our understanding, as a dragon Frost would have always been ageless. Is this understanding incorrect, or is there something else going on with him?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something else going on with him. That is a good question.

 

 

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We do know from the examples of the Heralds and from Vasher and even Hoid that humans aren't especially equipped for immortality and that is a problem a Shard has to particularly deal with. I don't believe wisdom has all that much to do with being a Vessel. It's more about compatibility with the Intent and the ability to resist Shardic pressure. But even if wisdom is a determining factor when it comes to being a Vessel and Humans are just as capable as Dragons at managing the immense power of a Shard in that way, having a body that is naturally immortal has to be considered as one less thing to deal with. 

Yes, compatibility of the Shard and understanding of its intent is a huge part of being a Vessel. Like you said it's also extremely important to resist Shardic pressure, otherwise you lose control over Shard and Shard will control you - like what has happened with Rayse. But this comes from mind - not wisdom, but from how strong their will is, how well can they control it. The more expanded their mind is, the better they would be in resisting Shard's intent.

Immortal body is of no concern anymore, as a Vessel stops being a living person, they stop being a human or dragon, and they are just a Vessel now, a Shard. Their body is vaporized by the immense power of the Shard. It's gone. That's why immortality doesn't matter.'

Spoiler

Questioner

I wanted to ask, is the Shardbearer [Vessel] of Odium a human?

Brandon Sanderson

Not any longer.

Questioner

Ok, that's... I didn't expect that one.

Brandon Sanderson

 But what the answer to your question you really want to know is, was he originally human?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a good question! But I don't think he counts anymore.

Footnote: Rayse is the Vessel of Odium
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

In the Liar of Partinel samples, we see fain life is covered in skullmoss (and iirc seems to have it inside them, from a few mentions of eating fain-touched animals being deadly). If a fain being were to Ascend, would their body retain this skullmoss when they drop (I mean, Leras and Ati seemed to retain their clothes, so it wouldn't surprise me), or would it be killed off by the process?

(Actually, I'm curious about this with microorganisms and such in general with Vessels, but the fain life is what made me think of it.)

Brandon Sanderson

Imagine the body that drops after a Shard dies being the essence being recreated out of energy. It wasn't there all along--it was absorbed into the power, then drops back out as a kind of husk. But it's not literally the same atoms. There has been some strange E=MC2=Investiture shenanigans going on.

[,,,]

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A Vessel with a mind that isn't crumbling from the ravages of advanced age is by default better able to cope with all the difficulties with the position than one that is.

Yes, but that's more because the mind of an ageless person is severely stretched by age, he will be worse as a Vessel after already living for thousands of years,  because his mind is damaged. But a person who didn't live that long and never suffered from such a condition will be better. (or like Jn said, a even a mind of a person damaged by agelessness will be "healed" by the power, and the only thing that matters is just how strong his mind and will is) But it still goes to the individual strength of a mind. For example, Jasnah would be a good candidate for Odium, despite being a mere human. She has a very strong mind, a very strong will and she would be able to control Odium well.

With this context in mind, we don't know how strong a dragon's mind is compared to a human's mind by default? Do dragons have naturally stronger minds, more expanded? Or are they comparable to humans, despite being better at handling immortality?

Another thing to consider is that with a more expanded mind, a Vessel can control more power at once. In that regard, if a dragon had by default a greater mind than humans, he would be able to control more power at once as a Vessel. 

That's of course mostly my opinion based on information available to us.

Mistborn spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Necarion

Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them.  You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

Mistborn spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

 

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

Spoiler

Necarion

Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them.  You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati.

Necarion

So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he would.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

 

6 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Are they immortal, or just very long lived? Hoid's letter to Frost says: "Though, as you are now essentially immortal...". Which suggests that it's a later development for Frost, not a natural state.

Dragons are naturally ageless, he somehow gained a second form of immortality or something like that:

Spoiler

clyguy

Are you willing to comment on what it is that provides Frost's longevity, is it something innate to his race or some--

Brandon Sanderson

It's racial.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Anything you can tell us about Frost?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you want to know about Frost?

Questioner

Everything.

Brandon Sanderson

Then no. I'm not going to tell you everything about Frost. He's still alive.

Questioner

He's immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He can be killed, he's just functionally immortal, he doesn't age.

Questioner

Has he always been able to take the form of that-- *audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. He was born as one.

Questioner

Born as one.

Brandon Sanderson

It is a race.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

[Jn819]

On 5/27/2023 at 7:36 AM, alder24 said:

For example, Jasnah would be a good candidate for Odium, despite being a mere human. She has a very strong mind, a very strong will and she would be able to control Odium well.

Unfortunately, she also doesn't express her passion much. She wouldn't be likely to attract the power of Odium if it lost its Vessel. And she might even struggle with it like (significant Mistborn: Secret History spoilers):

Spoiler

Kelsier was barely able to do anything with Preservation's power because he was so much more thoroughly connected to Ruin.

 

[alder24]

On 30.05.2023 at 1:09 AM, Jn819 said:

Unfortunately, she also doesn't express her passion much. She wouldn't be likely to attract the power of Odium if it lost its Vessel. And she might even struggle with it like (significant Mistborn: Secret History spoilers):

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Kelsier was barely able to do anything with Preservation's power because he was so much more thoroughly connected to Ruin.

 

Doesn't she? Just because she doesn't express her feelings doesn't mean she doesn't feel them. There were multiple moments in books where Jasnah was expressive - when Shallan went to CR in WoK, before her assassination attempt on the boat in WoR, her relationship with Hoid. She just expresses her emotions differently. She controls her emotions but she still feels them, hatred included. And because of her control over emotions, she would be perfect for controlling Odium. Moreover, she might consider Odium as Odium, not Passion, which would make it even less about emotions and more about hatred only.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Unlike Preservation and Ruin, whose intents are directly opposed to one another, Odium isn't opposition to either Honor nor Cultivations. That would make it much easier for her to Ascend, but still not that easy like in Taravangian's case. 

But you're not telling the whole truth about Kelsier. One problem was that it was a forced connection and he had a very faint natural connection to Preservation, also lacking the understanding of Preservation's nature. Another was that he was lacking a physical body, which means lacking connection to PR. Lastly Ruin was actively opposing every Kelsier move. 

 

Edit:

On 22.05.2023 at 8:51 AM, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I’ve always thought thunderclasts are a kind of frankenspren; a person and a chasm fiend mashed together.

I've found WoBs about Thunderclast's origin, they're inspired by Chasmfiend, but not related to them. They're related to Voidbringers. So I don't think they have Chasmfiend's soul in them. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Are chasmfiends related to thunderclasts?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Good question though. Thunderclasts are actually... It shows up pretty early in the series, the second book, more what thunderclasts are. Dalinar sees one in a flashback in the second book. So you'll get a good explanation of where they come from, but they are more related to the voidbringers, whereas chasmfiends are actually a living part of the ecosystem.

Questioner

So what is the purpose of the pupating?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out. Shallan is asking that very question.

Steelheart release party (Sept. 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

What role will the chasmfiends play?

Brandon Sanderson

So there's a bunch of different roles for the chasmfiends that are all minor but-- For instance, I don't think anyone's made this connection, thunderclasts have chasmfiend-- it's part of the in-world inspiration for thunderclasts. And really chasmfiends exist in part to show off the symbiotic relationship between certain spren and certain creatures on Roshar. So when people who read the first book who know a little about physics can be like "Uhh, Mr. Sanderson" and I'm like "Well, look at these things that are flowing around this thing when it dies." It's an introduction of gemhearts and things like this. And the ability of certain creatures on Roshar to hold Investiture permanently, as Szeth says, rather than it seeping away like it does to humans.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by alder24

[Jn819]

On 5/30/2023 at 6:50 AM, alder24 said:

Doesn't she? Just because she doesn't express her feelings doesn't mean she doesn't feel them. There were multiple moments in books where Jasnah was expressive - when Shallan went to CR in WoK, before her assassination attempt on the boat in WoR, her relationship with Hoid. She just expresses her emotions differently. She controls her emotions but she still feels them, hatred included. And because of her control over emotions, she would be perfect for controlling Odium. Moreover, she might consider Odium as Odium, not Passion, which would make it even less about emotions and more about hatred only.

Maybe, but she rarely seems to draw any spren, much less the multitudes Taravangian draws on his stupidest day. If she's anything like me (and she seems to be), there are certain things that invoke her passions, but usually she's more apathetic. She doesn't just hide her negative emotions, she fights them.

I am curious if Stormlight 5 will reveal more as to how Odium created Thunderclast souls (cognitive shadows, whatever term fits best). I imagine it's a lot like Unmaking a spren.