It's Not Just Renarin - Truthwatchers Could All See the Future

[JohnnyKaizen]

I am still early in RoW, and I did not remember, at all, that it's spelled out more explicitly by Renarin later in the book. That makes a lot more sense. I was going off of incorrect memories of what's happening there. I like it better as it is described though. Them being in conflict with each other in this specific way is exciting to me. Thanks for the clarification.

[AFdooda]

What if this links back to the OP?

A 'taboo' has to originate with someone not liking something.

On one hand this could be the Truthwatchers themselves fearing the power of futuresight.

It could be the Vorin religion who dislike 'Voidbinding' etc.

Or perhaps it is the influence of a Shard. As a being with god like power over Roshar a Shard could influence things in some way to favour themselves. I'm looking at Odium here. He has decent futuresight skills but he would definitely know others who looked into the future would present a threat to his master plan. All three Rosharan Shards have had enormous impacts on Rosharan culture so why not a little godly tampering on Odium's behalf to make things a little easier. Make futuresight a sin in a highly religious culture and few would pursue it.

This seems like a stretch but then again all the threads on the 17th seems to turn crazy after a while.

EDIT: I somehow put a spoiler box with nothing in it.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by AFdooda

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 4/8/2023 at 11:10 AM, AFdooda said:

What if this links back to the OP?

A 'taboo' has to originate with someone not liking something.

On one hand this could be the Truthwatchers themselves fearing the power of futuresight.

It could be the Vorin religion who dislike 'Voidbinding' etc.

Or perhaps it is the influence of a Shard. As a being with god like power over Roshar a Shard could influence things in some way to favour themselves. I'm looking at Odium here. He has decent futuresight skills but he would definitely know others who looked into the future would present a threat to his master plan. All three Rosharan Shards have had enormous impacts on Rosharan culture so why not a little godly tampering on Odium's behalf to make things a little easier. Make futuresight a sin in a highly religious culture and few would pursue it.

This seems like a stretch but then again all the threads on the 17th seems to turn crazy after a while.

EDIT: I somehow put a spoiler box with nothing in it.

 

The weirdest thing to me about this, is that Honor says to Dalinar in WoK that looking into the future is forbidden, right before talking about looking into the future and how Cultivation is better at it than he is. Maybe he was going crazy by then? But the idea existed before the Vorin church. Maybe it was Honor's instability that caused it? Either way, BS doesn't write obvious contradictions for nothing. There is definitely a reason that it's forbidden, but I feel like I end up spinning in circles every time I think about why this would be.

[in Truth,watcher of tv]

17 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

The weirdest thing to me about this, is that Honor says to Dalinar in WoK that looking into the future is forbidden, right before talking about looking into the future and how Cultivation is better at it than he is. Maybe he was going crazy by then? But the idea existed before the Vorin church. Maybe it was Honor's instability that caused it? Either way, BS doesn't write obvious contradictions for nothing. There is definitely a reason that it's forbidden, but I feel like I end up spinning in circles every time I think about why this would be.

Well, what’s forbidden for the people isn’t necessarily forbidden for the Shards. Presumably the people would be forbidden it because they could only get it from Odium (outside of directly being told by Honour or Cultivation).

[JohnnyKaizen]

Yeah, I can see that as being the case. Still, the fact that the ancient Truthwatchers seemed to have future sight, makes it seem like there is a lot more going on here. Because Honor and Cultivation would have known what the Radiants were doing back then, presumably?

[Treamayne]

18 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

The weirdest thing to me about this, is that Honor says to Dalinar in WoK that looking into the future is forbidden, right before talking about looking into the future and how Cultivation is better at it than he is.

But that is not what he said. I quoted it back on page one because context was being lost. Vision Honor never says anything about Futuresight being forbidden; only "speaking of it," which can have multiple possible interpretations.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Treamayne
Clarity

[JohnnyKaizen]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But that is not what he said. I quoted it back on page one because context was being lost. Vision Honor never says anything about Futuresight being forbidden; only "speaking of it," which can have multiple possible interpretations.

Ok yeah, that's a clear example of "Sanderson being tricky" with his specifically chosen words. So I'm back to square one with that lol.

[AFdooda]

On 11/04/2023 at 3:08 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:

So I'm back to square one with that lol.

I think that the idea of the ancient Truthwatchers having futuresight is 100% possible but we'll have to wait to find out. The Truthwatcher's featured in Stormlight currently are either anomalous or not really mentioned. Do we have an explained Truthwatcher character that isn't corrupted-you-know-who (I'm avoiding spoilers, its a habit) or not? It's been a while for me and I can't remember what the Truthwatcher's do in Rhythm of War.

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:42 AM, AFdooda said:

Do we have an explained Truthwatcher character that isn't corrupted-you-know-who (I'm avoiding spoilers, its a habit) or not? It's been a while for me and I can't remember what the Truthwatcher's do in Rhythm of War.

I am going back through RoW at the moment, I am pretty sure that the Stump is a truthwatcher? Am I wrong on that? But what she can do, other than ReGrowth, either isn't mentioned or I'll spot it this go round?

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I am going back through RoW at the moment, I am pretty sure that the Stump is a truthwatcher? Am I wrong on that? But what she can do, other than ReGrowth, either isn't mentioned or I'll spot it this go round?

She is, but I don't think there is any mention of what Truthwatchers normal vision is.

[Kendelian]

On your third piece of evidence, relating to Lift. Her ability to comprehend slang may just come from her background of growing up a street urchin. It may also be due to her unique nature that was due to her interactions with the Nightwatcher.

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 4/18/2023 at 11:26 AM, Kendelian said:

On your third piece of evidence, relating to Lift. Her ability to comprehend slang may just come from her background of growing up a street urchin. It may also be due to her unique nature that was due to her interactions with the Nightwatcher.

I am thinking it is, in fact, supernatural due to Connection, as previously suggested, as in RoW...Lift is able to

Spoiler

talk with the red and blue Aviar that was attacked by Mraize's Aviar. She wasn't simply guessing what the Aviar was saying..she understood and responded to it.

 

[AFdooda]

Throughout the Stormlight Archive we come across Radiants that are different to what their Order normally does. I mean, pretty much every major character who is a Radiant has something anomalous about them.

Yes the period of Roshar in which Stormlight is set is a unique period in that it is a unlike anything ever before but surely unique Radiants with odd abilities granted by this or that great power existed before? A Truthwatcher who could see the future could perhaps have existed far in the past, granted that ability by Cultivation through the Nightwatcher (for example), as we have seen already in the books.

Yes the main characters of the Stormlight books are the main characters and thus get favour from the plot and storytelling but in a world as deep as the Cosmere I don't see why unique abilities should be limited to the heroes of the books alone.

Honor and Cultivation have been resisting the Desolations for thousands of years, it is only reasonable to assume that other plans have been created, mortal agents selected and power granted unto them - just like in the Stormlight books, really. Of course we must assume that these plans were largely unsuccessful because the Desolations continue but it is reasonable to assume that many attempts to stop them have been made.

[bmcclure7]

On 4/18/2023 at 9:55 AM, alder24 said:

She is, but I don't think there is any mention of what Truthwatchers normal vision is.

 Yes there is a specifically says that they can't see the future and there Illumination behaves normally.

[Bigmikey357]

The OP's theory gives one much to think about.  I don't necessarily agree with it but I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually true.  After reading the comments here's what I believe is going on:

. Renarin is special. His full Truthwatcher ability to see the future was unlocked by his bond with Glys. 

. OG Truthwatchers could NOT see the future, their vision was limited to past and present in a wide range, particularly good with subjects they had a Connection to.

. Ancients with the powers that eventually became codified as Truthwatcher powers could indeed see the future before Ishar forced organization on Surgebinders.  Either by Ishar's decree or Honor's will, those Truthwatchers were denied futuresight.

. At the time of the Recreance those restrictions, indeed the restrictions for all KR were loosening due to Honor's impending demise. A couple of Truthwatchers in that Era got a peek behind the veil and it freaked them, so much so that they felt it must be recorded. 

. Those protections in the current Era are even weaker now than they were during the Recreance, leading to more capable KR and less rigid restrictions to the magic. This also makes it far easier to corrupt. But much like the Oathpact before Jezrian was murdered, the protections are still being enforced if perhaps in a limited way. A Truthwatcher with no real need to test the ancient restrictions would not be able to see the future. If Renarin had been chosen by an untouched Mistpren he'd not be able to see the future either,  or at least not nearly as frequently as he apparently does. 

 

[AFdooda]

On 24/04/2023 at 6:42 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

. Ancients with the powers that eventually became codified as Truthwatcher powers could indeed see the future before Ishar forced organization on Surgebinders.  Either by Ishar's decree or Honor's will, those Truthwatchers were denied futuresight.

The idea that futuresight may have been a power of Surgebinders before becoming the KR is intriguing. We know Ishar made the KR to impose order on the Surgebinders and stop them going totally rogue. This is a very 'Honor' thing to do and so futuresight may have been restricted or heavily frowned upon from that point onwards. I mean, how much do we really know about Surgebinding pre-Knights Radiant? Woefully little as it's not a period that has been focussed on much so far. Perhaps things could have been very different.

What we do know is that spren made the Nahel bonds independent of the Heralds and Rosharan Shards (despite being pieces of Investiture themselves). It can thus be presumed that the spren dictated the effects of the bond in some way and that it was only when Ishar formed the Knights that Surgebinding as we know it began as this directly linked the Surgebinders to the Shards.

[JohnnyKaizen]

6 hours ago, AFdooda said:

I mean, how much do we really know about Surgebinding pre-Knights Radiant? Woefully little as it's not a period that has been focussed on much so far. Perhaps things could have been very different.

Not much, and BS has pretty much confirmed that there is a lot of wiggle room for the heralds when it comes to timelines. There is a WoB somewhere that he clearly says that ancient timelines are wrong, and that we aren't going to know the truth until we see/hear it from the heralds themselves in SA 6-10. So that's all wide open for wild speculation atm.

[AFdooda]

17 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

we aren't going to know the truth until we see/hear it from the heralds themselves in SA 6-10.

You know... I totally forgot that Stormlight is technically going to be two separate series going up to ten books. The second part is the Heraldic Epochs, is it? I think that would answer a lot of questions on these forums.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, AFdooda said:

You know... I totally forgot that Stormlight is technically going to be two separate series going up to ten books. The second part is the Heraldic Epochs, is it? I think that would answer a lot of questions on these forums.

No, the second part is a continuation of the first part, around 10 years after the SA 5. But it will include 2 books with Taln and Ash as flashback characters, that's why we will get glimpses of Ashyn, first Desolations and likely ancient Radiants as well, all from Heralds' perspective.

[cometaryorbit]

My guess is that early pre-Radiant Order Nahel Bond Surgebinders (in Nohadon's era for example) were pretty different from the current ones.

I don't think they were just "Radiants without formal organization". They probably didn't have Plate (which doesn't really feel that natural to the Nahel bond) but might have had weirder Surge effects.

The idea that futuresight was prevented by Honor's limits on Surgebinding is pretty good - it would explain the "I foresaw this" emerald in the gem archive, since Honor's limitations were fading in that era, even before he died (Melishi could see Connections directly).

Edited May 19, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Jn819]

On 3/25/2023 at 8:32 PM, Trusk'our said:

One thing I'd like to point out though: it is part of Alethi culture, if I am correct, that seeing the future is related to Odium and Voidbinding, which may have stemmed from actual facts. This does discredit your theory a little, though not entirely I would think, as a lot of time has passed since the Recreance, and it is a real possibility that the Truthwatcher resonance got mixed together with Voidbinding powers (which also makes some sense as well since Radiants were considered to be evil until very recently in both Alethi culture and in Vorinism).

As others have said (but I'd like to expand on a bit), it's probably relevant that Honor mentioned (in his vision of destroyed Kholinar IIRC) that he is not as good at seeing the future as Cultivation. Progression is the Surge that's probably closest to Cultivation, just as Adhesion is "Honor's truest surge." Odium seems to be better at seeing the future than either of them are. It stands to reason that what was once understood as "Voidbinders are the best prophets that we know of, but others can do it too" simplified to a vague sentiment that prophecy is of Voidbinding.

My guess is that if (normal) Truthwatchers do have this ability, it's generally much more limited than Renarin's and limited to intentionally reading the future of someone they can directly touch, kind of like a palm reader in practice but more like burning Atium in its mechanism. It manifests more like the one time when Renarin actually does manage to Lightweave something other than a ball, when he touches Moash and creates an illusion of a perfected version of him.

[Bigmikey357]

10 hours ago, Jn819 said:

 

My guess is that if (normal) Truthwatchers do have this ability, it's generally much more limited than Renarin's and limited to intentionally reading the future of someone they can directly touch, kind of like a palm reader in practice but more like burning Atium in its mechanism. It manifests more like the one time when Renarin actually does manage to Lightweave something other than a ball, when he touches Moash and creates an illusion of a perfected version of him.

Just to nitpick a little bit,  I believe Renarin lost the ability to lightweave normally as a consequence of Glys' altered state. It's stated in the text that non altered Truthwatchers can make Shallan style illusions just fine (though they don't explain the method). What I think is occurring here is a tradeoff. Renarin as an alternative Truthwatcher gains futuresight but loses traditional lightweaving. More power to one Surge yields less power to the other when most people are closer to a balance  However,  he still gets to keep his Resonance. What we see when he shows Moash (and Adolin, don't forget) their Ideal he is using his Resonance.  In fact,  now that I think about it,  I begin to believe that the truth watching that they all do is just their Resonance at work. Their surges are illumination and progression (regrowth/healing) and I have not noticed Renarin being extraordinary in either of his Surges, and particularly weak with Lightweaving. So I guess the 'fuel' for his Resonance boost (his futuresight) comes from a weakening of his normal surges, more from the lightweaving side of the ledger. 

[Jn819]

13 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Just to nitpick a little bit,  I believe Renarin lost the ability to lightweave normally as a consequence of Glys' altered state. It's stated in the text that non altered Truthwatchers can make Shallan style illusions just fine (though they don't explain the method). What I think is occurring here is a tradeoff. Renarin as an alternative Truthwatcher gains futuresight but loses traditional lightweaving. More power to one Surge yields less power to the other when most people are closer to a balance  However,  he still gets to keep his Resonance. What we see when he shows Moash (and Adolin, don't forget) their Ideal he is using his Resonance.  In fact,  now that I think about it,  I begin to believe that the truth watching that they all do is just their Resonance at work. Their surges are illumination and progression (regrowth/healing) and I have not noticed Renarin being extraordinary in either of his Surges, and particularly weak with Lightweaving. So I guess the 'fuel' for his Resonance boost (his futuresight) comes from a weakening of his normal surges, more from the lightweaving side of the ledger. 

Yeah it doesn't sound like we really disagree on anything, except I think Renarin might be able to learn normal Lightweaving but just hasn't had the right teacher/found the right focus. We do see some of Shallan's squires struggling with it. I think it's less a binary (altered Truthwatchers can't Lightweave and normal Truthwatchers can't see the future) but more of a strength thing (altered Truthwatchers struggle to produce illusions, normal Truthwatchers struggle to access even the Resonance of showing someone their perfected version). But I'm not confident on that, and he may well be incapable.

Of course, I think Renarin's performance against the Thunderclast at the battle of Thaylen City was pretty awesome, but I'm not sure if that's "extraordinary" for a Radiant with Regrowth.

[Bigmikey357]

Yeah I'm still not sure what Renarin did at TC with that thunderclast at the end. He cracked open a ball of light, the thunderclast ran. Both Renarin and Glys are so vague that I can't be sure about anything. But I saw nothing wrong or funky with his Progression Surge beforehand. 

[Jn819]

36 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Yeah I'm still not sure what Renarin did at TC with that thunderclast at the end. He cracked open a ball of light, the thunderclast ran. Both Renarin and Glys are so vague that I can't be sure about anything. But I saw nothing wrong or funky with his Progression Surge beforehand. 

Uh...

Quote

"Adolin, don't be foolhardy!" Renarin grabbed his arm. A burst of healing moved through Adolin like cold water in his veins, causing his pains to reatreat.

"But--"

"I can handle it, Adolin. Just go! Please."

Adolin stumbled back. He'd never heard such forceful talk from Renarin--that was almost more amazing than the monster. Renarin, shockingly, charged at the thing.

A clatter announced Hrdalm climbing down from above, his Plate's helm cracked, but otherwise in good shape. He had lost his hammer, but carried one of the lances from the Fused, and his Plate fist was covered in blood.

Renarin! He didn't have Plate. How--

The thunderclast's palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother's Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist.

The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn't even a bother.

"Excellent!" Hrdalm said, laughing inside his helm. "You, rest. Okay?"

Adolin nodded, stifling a groan of pain. Renarin's healing had stopped his insides from aching, and it was no longer painful to put weight on his leg, but his arms still ached, and some of his cuts hadn't closed.

As Hrdalm stepped toward the fight, Adolin took the man by the arm, then lifted Maya.

Go with him for now, Maya, Adolin thought.

He almost wished she'd object, but the vague sensation he received was a resigned agreement.

Hrdalm dropped his lance and took the Blade reverently. "Great Honor in you, Prince Adolin," he said. "Great Passion in me at this aid."

"Go," Adolin said. "I'll go see if I can help hold the streets."

That's what I was talking about (what I bolded). I assume what you're referencing is this, a few pages later?

Quote

"You did good," the Thaylen said. He nodded toward the thunderclast, which got to its knees then slipped. "How to end?"

It will fear you! Glys said from within Renarin. It will go. Make it so that it will go.

"I'll see what I can do," Renarin said to the Thaylen, then carefully picked his way over to the street and up a level to get a better view of the thunderclast's head.

"So...Glys?" he asked. "What do I do?"

Light. You will make it go with light.

The thing pulled itself up across the rubble of a destroyed building. Stone rubbed stone as its enormous, wedge-shaped head turned to Renarin. Recessed molten eyes fluttered, like a sputtering fire.

It was in pain. It could hurt.

It will go! Glys promised, excitable as ever.

Renarin raised his fist and summoned Stormlight. It glowed as a powerful beacon. And...

The red molten eyes faded before that light, and the thing settled down with a last extinguishing sigh.

Glys said it would fear Renarin. I'm not sure if it knew he was a Truthwatcher, that his spren was Enlightened, or what. Maybe it thought he was a Lightweaver who was about to Soulcast it.

My guess is that it had just taken too much of a beating already and saw that Renarin still had enough power to finish it off, so it might as well give up and "die" (as much as any Fused dies) now.