Jump to content

It's Not Just Renarin - Truthwatchers Could All See the Future


Longshot97

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Introduction

Well, this is one of the most incoherent theories I've ever cobbled together. But I think I have something, at the very least. Regardless, here we go. I will first state the theory, for the sake of retaining reader attention, then explain the evidence I have to prove it.

Whatever the case, I believe I have found the nature of whatever resonance the Truthwatchers possess, or at the very least an ability they somehow employ. I will delay no further; I believe the Truthwatchers had the ability glimpse the future.

Please understand, I have not taken temporary leave of my sanity. I know Renarin is not a true Truthwatcher, and I understand the Surges as well as any Cosmerenaut. Allow me to present my evidence, such as it is.

Evidence 1: The Urithiru Gem Archive

I think everyone who's closely read the epigraphs has flirted with this theory at one time or another. I quote below an entry made by an unknown Truthwatcher, detailing their plan to deny Voidlight to the parsh armies. See below:

It has already been established that the gem type corresponds with the Order of Knight who recorded the message. I invite all to look at the final message, recorded in "a particularly small emerald." Obviously, whoever recorded it must have felt a need to record their foresight. Now, this can be taken two ways.

  1. The Truthwatcher had an uncannily acute sense of foresight, and very accurately judged the eventual findings and conclusions of a group of scholars, tacticians, and warriors.
  2. The word "foresaw" was used in a more literal sense.

I'm inclined to believe the latter, for the fact that the gem was "particularly small" as well as the Truthwatcher's evident need for secrecy.

Evidence 2: The Surgebinding Chart

It is interesting to note how specifically the Truthwatchers are placed. Directly below the Bondsmiths. Not only this, but a strange line connects the two, completely unrelated to the surrounding art. I am not the first to note this; indeed, another user asked a question concerning it.

Brandon admits that there is some significance to this placement, and that Truthwatchers are different from other Orders in much the same way a Bondsmith is. How interesting, especially in light of Evidence 1.

Evidence 3: The Nature of Resonances

We have some details concerning the nature of resonances. Kaladin and Shallan---and to a certain extent, Jasnah and Lift---have all demonstrated abilities that occur from their two Surges interacting. Kaladin can adopt far more squires, and those of far more power, than any other order. Shallan has uncanny mnemonic abilities that Brandon attributes to her order. The same goes for Kaladin.

Jasnah is noted by Wit as having an uncanny sense of direction, leading to some speculation among the fanbase. Then Lift, who displayed a very keen sense of comprehension in the face of street slang worse than that of Spook's.

What's interesting is how all these resonances seem have certain common characteristics. These are the ones I have noted.

  1. The resonances we do have, and some suspected ones, are at least tangentially related to the Surges that produce them.
  2. The resonances, at least in the case of Knights Radiant, seem to follow their order's underlying themes.
  3. There seems to be an almost thematic connection between the Surges and the resonance.

Evidence 4: Renarin

Fear not, intrepid readers, for I yet retain my sanity. I bring up Renarin only to point out the connection between this theory and one of Renarin's main abilities. As a Cosmerenaut, I do not believe much in coincidences, and find it very convenient that a Truthwatcher of old "foresaw" something, and Renarin, a corrupted Truthwatcher, sees the future in intermittent fits. 

Putting It All Together

From all these pieces of evidence, I believe enough data has been gathered to draw conclusions. So, diving right in, we start with the very high likelihood that a Truthwatcher past somehow saw the future. This was something he fear, or was ashamed of, but regardless felt necessary to maintain secrecy over.

Evidence 2 introduces the thought that Truthwatchers have some abilities that almost resemble those of a Bondsmith. At the very least, they have something Cognitively and Spiritually related. We know that seeing the future involves the Spiritual Realm, where time has no meaning.

The conclusions drawn from Evidence 3 are the shakiest I have to offer, but I'll do my best to be clear. Truthwatchers of Ideals surrounding the nature of truth, and seeking it out. Thus, they are commonly scholars and scientists. They seek to banish lies and understand the world better.

More than that, the Surges exclusive to Truthwatchers are those of Progression and Illumination. What an interesting combination. Looking at these purely thematically, a combination of the two might illuminate a future path, a way of progressing forwards.

Finally, Renarin. Again, I find it far too coincidental how he can see the future. And perhaps this provides some insight as to the nature of Sja-anat's Enlightening. Maybe Enlightened spren almost lean into the resonance, and that is the pattern of affected Orders.

Conclusion

None of these pieces of evidence alone serve to help prove this theory. When taken together, however, the connections drawn follow some common paths. If you have any thoughts over this, please comment so. Any and all criticism are welcome.

Many thanks for reading,

Longshot97

I like it! I think that your line of reasoning has some merit, though we'd need some more evidence before I'd put all my chips on it being true.

One thing I'd like to point out though: it is part of Alethi culture, if I am correct, that seeing the future is related to Odium and Voidbinding, which may have stemmed from actual facts. This does discredit your theory a little, though not entirely I would think, as a lot of time has passed since the Recreance, and it is a real possibility that the Truthwatcher resonance got mixed together with Voidbinding powers (which also makes some sense as well since Radiants were considered to be evil until very recently in both Alethi culture and in Vorinism).

Basically, I like the idea and think it could be true, but I think we need some more Truthwatcher action before we can confirm its existence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I like it! I think that your line of reasoning has some merit, though we'd need some more evidence before I'd put all my chips on it being true.

One thing I'd like to point out though: it is part of Alethi culture, if I am correct, that seeing the future is related to Odium and Voidbinding, which may have stemmed from actual facts. This does discredit your theory a little, though not entirely I would think, as a lot of time has passed since the Recreance, and it is a real possibility that the Truthwatcher resonance got mixed together with Voidbinding powers (which also makes some sense as well since Radiants were considered to be evil until very recently in both Alethi culture and in Vorinism).

Basically, I like the idea and think it could be true, but I think we need some more Truthwatcher action before we can confirm its existence.

Ooh, you brought up an excellent point, and one I meant to address. We understand that seeing the future is something that involves the Spiritual Realm, that all Shards are capable of to some degree, and is not entirely uncommon across magic systems.

I meant to include that it is very likely the Truthwatchers (assuming my theory to be correct) began to conceal this ability or downplay it when it became common custom to view seeing the future as "of the Voidbringers." This explains the secrecy of the Truthwatcher from the Urithiru Gem Archive, and why we don't see this recorded anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, it seems really unlikely to me that such a useful ability of one of the Orders would become so heavily taboo. I interpret the enlightened Truthwatcher access to future sight as them being given a glimpse at Odium’s futuresight, which Honour lacks. I don’t think the gem archive Truthwatcher would be so scared if it was a regular occurrence for them. It’s possible it was a vision from Cultivation directly, warning off the consequences.

Anyway, I took my reasoning in the opposite direction, I figure the Truthwatchers can see the past. Illumination being the Surge of revelation, Progression suggesting time, and prediction being “of the enemy”, it makes sense that they would be able look into the past as a way to gather and verify information, especially since they don’t seem to have literal truth powers.
Renarin does something like this when he creates an allomantic gold style shadow of Moash. I imagine a Truthwatcher could create illusions that play out past events (yes, I want an Urithiru noir detective novella).

On a side note, I don’t know if Jasnah has GPS abilities, if you’re referring to the WoR epilogue, she was just in the Cognitive Realm where she would have been able to see a group of souls in the distance indicating a village.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

On a side note, I don’t know if Jasnah has GPS abilities, if you’re referring to the WoR epilogue, she was just in the Cognitive Realm where she would have been able to see a group of souls in the distance indicating a village.

I've never heard this theory about Jasnah being able to just see where the souls were in the Cognitive. Everyone's always assumed it was a Resonance, but that makes so much sense, I can't believe I hadn't heard about or thought about it myself before.

27 minutes ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

I figure the Truthwatchers can see the past. Illumination being the Surge of revelation, Progression suggesting time, and prediction being “of the enemy”, it makes sense that they would be able look into the past as a way to gather and verify information, especially since they don’t seem to have literal truth powers.
Renarin does something like this when he creates an allomantic gold style shadow of Moash. I imagine a Truthwatcher could create illusions that play out past events (yes, I want an Urithiru noir detective novella).

I like that. That the gold-shadow-thing that Renarin did to Moash wasn't a totally weird and out of the blue thing, it was an expansion on the natural past-seeing Resonance of Truthwatchers. To be honest, though, I don't agree that Truthwatchers have a past-sight Resonance, I agree with Longshot that they have, in a much more minor way, a form of Future-Sight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a good and well written theory, even if based mostly on speculations, but hey, you need to start somewhere. I like it, but I don't think it's true.

13 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Evidence 1: The Urithiru Gem Archive

I think everyone who's closely read the epigraphs has flirted with this theory at one time or another. I quote below an entry made by an unknown Truthwatcher, detailing their plan to deny Voidlight to the parsh armies. See below:

Quote

"Something must be done about the remnants of Odium's forces. The parsh, as they are now called, continue their war with zeal, even without their masters from Damnation." (first emerald)

"A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat." (second emerald)

"Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." (third emerald)

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her." (fourth emerald)

"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects." (fifth emerald)

"Surely this will bring - at long last - the end to war that the Heralds promised us." (final emerald)

"Don't tell anyone. I can't say it. I must whisper. I foresaw this." (a particularly small emerald)

Drawer 30-20, all emeralds, of the Urithiru Gem Archive.

It has already been established that the gem type corresponds with the Order of Knight who recorded the message. I invite all to look at the final message, recorded in "a particularly small emerald." Obviously, whoever recorded it must have felt a need to record their foresight. Now, this can be taken two ways.

  1. The Truthwatcher had an uncannily acute sense of foresight, and very accurately judged the eventual findings and conclusions of a group of scholars, tacticians, and warriors.
  2. The word "foresaw" was used in a more literal sense.

I'm inclined to believe the latter, for the fact that the gem was "particularly small" as well as the Truthwatcher's evident need for secrecy.

Let's start with the gem archive. Do we know that they were all made by the same Truthwatcher? There are 7 emeralds here, all could be made by different Truthwatchers, or at least by a group of them. But even if they are all made by one Truthwatcher, only the small emerald is suspicious. Why? Because Truthwatechrs see the Truth. I think they just see glimpses of SR, yes, but in relation to the events happening right now or in the past. But like Renarin, who sees often just unclear hints about things that will happen, Truthwatchers would also often see hints pointing them towards truth, without giving them a clear answer.

All of the big emeralds are based on clear logical reasoning. New Desolation had started, but there were no Fused, Parsh could  change forms to the forms of power, which had to be fueled by Voidlight. This meant that there was some other entity granting them this ability, that wasn't forced to travel back on Braize, when Last Desolation ended, but stayed on Roshar instead. So those forms of powers couldn't be granted by Voidspren, they have to be granted only by Unmade, because they alone stayed on Roshar. And because they were familiar with Ba-Ado-Mishram, they concluded it has to be her doing. So this reasoning explains 3/6 emeralds. Truthwatchers likely could see hints of this in their visions, but they were all about past, or present events, not future. After all, SR is timeless, so someone with access to it might be able to see not just the future, but also the past and present. Truthwachers could be limited and forbade by looking into the future by Honor or Ishar.

Then there are 2 emeralds talking about a speculative way of trapping Unmade in a gemstone. Keep in mind that this was concluded among "coalition of scholars among Radiants", and Truthwachers would be part of this, as they are scholars, and this idea didn't come just from Truthwatchers.  And emeralds are recorded in the plural form, so they were likely recorded by those scholars from that "coalition". And their conclusions aren't really hard to come up with, Dalinar did it in OB, Unmades are spren, and if lesser spren can be trapped then why not Unmades? So it's another logical leap. They also were uncertain about the after effects of BAM imprisonment, but none foresaw them. 

The final emerald is just about hope. If there would be no entity capable of granting forms of powers, there would be no more Desolations. Logical conclusion. 

So the only emerald that is weird is the small one. We don't even know what it is talking about. Likely about Radiants leaving Urithiru, because that's why they started to record those messages. If the power to see glimpses of Future was common among Truthwatchers, then this particular Truthwatcher wouldn't have to be afraid so much that he had to "whisper". But he was. He couldn't talk about it. He didn't want anyone to know this. This for me clearly means that even when Radiants were at their prime, future vision was still viewed as coming from Odium and Radiants didn't have that power. If they had, they wouldn't have to hide it.

I do think that this particular Truthwatcher might have something more going on than the others, and really did see the future, which he shouldn't be able to do, if he was a regular Truthwacher. I do suspect that his spren might be the very first higher spren that Sja-anat was able to corrupt, and thus he was able to see the future. Who knows, maybe this was Glys? But that's wild speculation on my part.

That's why I don't think that Truthwatchers of the past were able to see the future, like Renarin. And we already have an example of Renarin's surges working differently than in normal Truthwachers - Illumination, Renarin can only create light, while others can do normal illusions. And Visions do look like a combination of both surges, mostly illumination, so it's not weird that he can see the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

One thing I'd like to point out though: it is part of Alethi culture, if I am correct, that seeing the future is related to Odium and Voidbinding, which may have stemmed from actual facts. This does discredit your theory a little, though not entirely I would think, as a lot of time has passed since the Recreance, and it is a real possibility that the Truthwatcher resonance got mixed together with Voidbinding powers (which also makes some sense as well since Radiants were considered to be evil until very recently in both Alethi culture and in Vorinism).

Not Alethi Culture so much as Vorin Culture (Which includes Alethkar, and other countries to differing extents).

10 hours ago, in Truth,watcher of tv said:

Hmm, it seems really unlikely to me that such a useful ability of one of the Orders would become so heavily taboo. I interpret the enlightened Truthwatcher access to future sight as them being given a glimpse at Odium’s futuresight, which Honour lacks. I don’t think the gem archive Truthwatcher would be so scared if it was a regular occurrence for them. It’s possible it was a vision from Cultivation directly, warning off the consequences.

But Truthwatchers weren't just of Honor (who doesn't lack the Shardic Futuresight so much as suck at it) - they were also of Cultivation (and Cultivation is significantly better at Shardic Futuresight than Odium). It also makes perfect sense if in the wake of the Recreance this was one more piece of "evidence" that the "Radiants betrayed us."

Personal opinion - Normal Truthwatchers can also have "glimpses" of the future - but they are much weaker and much more infrequent than what Renarin Experiences. Possibly they are also more likely to be accurate when they do happen (unchanged by a connection to Odium/Unmade).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Personal opinion - Normal Truthwatchers can also have "glimpses" of the future - but they are much weaker and much more infrequent than what Renarin Experiences. Possibly they are also more likely to be accurate when they do happen (unchanged by a connection to Odium/Unmade).

Argh, this was what I was trying to convey in the first place. I really need to be more clear.

I agree, it makes far more sense that it happens infrequently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something I’d like to point out:

Quote

The figure squinted at the horizon. “I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future … I can only guess.”

- Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings, 2010pg 1110

Vorinism, what’s left of the Worship of Honor, had issues with seeing the future, a power that was noted as not being something their God was best at.  Truthwatchers said are to be closer, if not closest, to Cultivation.  Granted, all Knights Radiant are still tied to honor with their reliance on his power, Stormlight.  
 

However, I find it possible, even likely, that a certain amount of Fortune could be found in the Old Magic.  Cultivation is all about building towards a future.  She doesn’t have an exact knowledge of the future.  I think that she’s better at dealing with that though, while honor has trouble with the uncertainties, being more rigid.  
 

We’ll see.  That one ancient Truthwatcher who foresaw the binding of Ba Ado Mishram and/or the abandonment of Utithiru felt the need to keep it a secret, so they were obviously different from their fellows.  But I think it’s clear that Culivation does work on different rules from honor, and maybe, just maybe, wants the Truthwatchers to have that power.

This actually ties to another question on my mind:  would “enlightened” cryptics also have the ability to grant a surge of fortune?  Or is lightweaving too strongly tied to the idea of truth and lies for them to be separated from it?  Would it change them too much?

Edited by Elder
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Elder said:

Vorinism, what’s left of the Worship of Honor, had issues with seeing the future, a power that was noted as not being something their God was best at.  Truthwatchers said are to be closer, if not closest, to Cultivation.  Granted, all Knights Radiant are still tied to honor with their reliance on his power, Stormlight.  

Exactly. Also, I think we are meant to misconstrue what the Truthwatchers hold as secret. I don;t think their glimpses of Fortune were a secret pre-recreance; I think it was that they believed, as an order, that they should not discuss what they saw (probably due to effects of causality and its effects on probability. For example - WoR Epigraph:

Spoiler

Ch52     chapter 11, page 6      "Now, as the Truthwatchers were esoteric in nature, their order being formed entirely of those who never spoke or wrote of what they did, in this lies frustration for those who would see their exceeding secrecy from the outside; they were not naturally inclined to explanation; and in the case of Corberon’s disagreements, their silence was not a sign of an exceeding abundance of disdain, but rather an exceeding abundance of tact."

Kinda reminds me of (Mistborn - HoA)

Spoiler

Vin, when she tells Elend that he can tell her what to do (based on his research of the numbers and percentages) but not the "why" or reasoning that led to the decision. I know its a different reason (not letting Ruin know what they have figured out) but the implications on probability and causality are similar. . .

. . . sharing too much knowledge and/or allowing others to know what may happen can affect causality and change what and how things happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, alder24 said:

I do think that this particular Truthwatcher might have something more going on than the others, and really did see the future, which he shouldn't be able to do, if he was a regular Truthwacher. I do suspect that his spren might be the very first higher spren that Sja-anat was able to corrupt, and thus he was able to see the future. Who knows, maybe this was Glys? But that's wild speculation on my part.

Renarin was the first

Spoiler

Wyndlerunner

So Renarin is not a normal Truthwatcher, whether you want to call him Corrupted or Enlightened. Is he the first Truthwatcher of this kind to have existed?

Brandon Sanderson

What an excellent question. Yes he is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/479/#e15146

 

 

 

Now to everyone saying that old Radiants couldn't have seen the future, consider the following:

1. We know Bondsmiths powers were limited

2. We know Cohesion was limited

3. The oaths act as a form of artificial limitation

 

Therefore I don't think it is out of the question that in the past Truthwatchers were prevented from using foresight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Exactly. Also, I think we are meant to misconstrue what the Truthwatchers hold as secret. I don;t think their glimpses of Fortune were a secret pre-recreance; I think it was that they believed, as an order, that they should not discuss what they saw (probably due to effects of causality and its effects on probability.

An excellent theory. I'd completely neglected the excerpts from Words of Radiance (in-world) when researching the Truthwatchers.

Though now I wonder: what could have prompted an ancient Truthwatcher to break this taboo? What is so terrible about predicting this course of action?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Though now I wonder: what could have prompted an ancient Truthwatcher to break this taboo?

Did the Radaint break a (possible) taboo? 

If they were more concerned with not discussing what they have "seen" (as opposed to having any form of Futuresight/Fortune) then the entry in the gem archive doesn;t really break that secret, since without context the "audience" has no way to know what was foreseen. Was it the capture of BAM? The failure of the Fabrials in Urithuru and it's subsequent evacuation? The Recreance itself?

Simply saying "I foresaw this" isn't revealing. I think the "Don't tell anyone, I must whisper" part was directed at the Radiant recording the speech in gemstones (the Truthwatcher shouldnot have let that person know) - not necessarily to whomever would eventually hear the message. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Did the Radaint break a (possible) taboo?

What if this ancient Truthwatcher started the taboo?

We know that there was a certain amount of regret and distress over what happened to the Parsh after their forms were taken away.

If this plan originated with a Truthwatcher seeing the future (something potentially mistrusted by the Radiants for a connection/vulnerability to the enemy) then perhaps looking into the future became shunned afterwards.

Add in thousands of years of religious development as modern Vorinism forms and a it's easy to see how futuresight could become a taboo.

Just an idea but maybe this fills a gap in someone's argument?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, AFdooda said:

What if this ancient Truthwatcher started the taboo?

We know that there was a certain amount of regret and distress over what happened to the Parsh after their forms were taken away.

If this plan originated with a Truthwatcher seeing the future (something potentially mistrusted by the Radiants for a connection/vulnerability to the enemy) then perhaps looking into the future became shunned afterwards.

Add in thousands of years of religious development as modern Vorinism forms and a it's easy to see how futuresight could become a taboo.

Just an idea but maybe this fills a gap in someone's argument?

They couldn't have as both the way of kings, and Honor in the visions say that seeing the future is Voidish/forbidden.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

They couldn't have as both the way of kings, and Honor in the visions say that seeing the future is Voidish/forbidden.

Source(s)?

Because I can't find anywhere in the visions that Honor says that Futuresight is Voidish. The closest I have found is (WoK Ch 19 - Dalinar's text removed since we know the Almighty's lines are a recorded script):

Spoiler
Quote

“I wish I could help you,” Taffa said, looking at Dalinar but ignoring his questions. “You have to unite them.”

...

To speak of what might be is forbidden,” the voice said. “To speak of what was depends on perspective. But I will try to help.”

...

“Yes,” the being said. “This is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you.”

Emphasis mine. The line could be read as "<people/Radiants> speaking of knowledge gained through Futuresight is forbidden" but it could just as easily be read as "Shards are forbidden from sharing knowledge from Fortune with mortals" and another score of possible interperations. 

Also, from the in-world WoK introduction we have:

Spoiler
Quote

You must find the most important words a man can say.

Those words came to me from one who claimed to have seen the future. 'How is this possible?’ I asked in return. ‘Have you been touched by the void?’

The reply was laughter. 'No, sweet king. The past is the future, and as each man has lived, so must you.’

Again, emphasis mine. Also, this is still not an attribute or prohibition - it's an allegorical text and that section could just as easily be a rote superstitious response as any indication of prohibition. Not to mention that those words are suspect as they don't fit with what we know of Nohodon and are also possibly an addition by the Hierocracy in the time they were altering old texts to make them more "Vorin."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Source(s)?

Because I can't find anywhere in the visions that Honor says that Futuresight is Voidish. The closest I have found is (WoK Ch 19 - Dalinar's text removed since we know the Almighty's lines are a recorded script):

  Reveal hidden contents

Emphasis mine. The line could be read as "<people/Radiants> speaking of knowledge gained through Futuresight is forbidden" but it could just as easily be read as "Shards are forbidden from sharing knowledge from Fortune with mortals" and another score of possible interperations. 

Also, from the in-world WoK introduction we have:

  Hide contents

Again, emphasis mine. Also, this is still not an attribute or prohibition - it's an allegorical text and that section could just as easily be a rote superstitious response as any indication of prohibition. Not to mention that those words are suspect as they don't fit with what we know of Nohodon and are also possibly an addition by the Hierocracy in the time they were altering old texts to make them more "Vorin."

 

Those are the sources, note how I mentioned the way of Kings first, and Honor second, and also did Voidish first, and forbidden second.

I just wrote it that way to save space, sorry for the confusion.

 

And while yes the Way of Kings is not garunteed to be 100% accurate to the original version, I don't see how it doesn't fit with Nohadon. And we know for a fact that Shards are not forbidden from sharing the future with mortals, Preservation, Ednowment, having both done so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And while yes the Way of Kings is not garunteed to be 100% accurate to the original version, I don't see how it doesn't fit with Nohadon.

Well, we've seen Bajerden three times in two visions (first vision twice, since Dalinar used it to talk to Venli), and read a limited selection of the excerpts from his text - the in-world Way of Kings. In that, there is no indication that he was, himself, Vorin (or that the so-called Old-Vorinism from the Heraldric Epochs has much in common with modern Vorinism other than a shared name and some cultural apprpriation). 

We only know that Vorinism eventually took up his writings and considered them holy texts and changed his name (over a 1000yrs post-mortem) to Nohodon. 

Quote

And we know for a fact that Shards are not forbidden from sharing the future with mortals, Preservation, Ednowment, having both done so.

Not in the way I referenced (Mistborn / Warbreaker):

Spoiler

Preservation is beleived to have created the Hero of Ages Prophecy - but that is far different than the Shard's vessel directly telling a mortal information gleaned through Fortune. Preservation (Fuzz) also gave a glimpse of Fortune (well, two) to Kelsier - but Kel wasn't a "mortal" anymore nor did Preservation comment on what Kel saw.

Endowment allows the Returned to Return after they have glimpsed Fortune, but also does not directly tell them what she knows from her own use of Futuresight. She also makes sure they forget it after the Return until the moment they Returned to fulfill has come. 

If those are not the instances you were referenceing, please let us know.

Also, I don't see through Cultivation's actions and machniations anytime where she is directly sharing information from Futuresight with a mortal. In fact, the only instance I can recall in any Cosmere work so far is when ROdium was showing off to Taravangian at the end of Oathbringer- and look how that turned out for him. 

To be clear, I'm not saying my interpretation is correct - only that it is one of many viable alternate interpretations of that clause from one of Honor's visions and that we can't be sure exactly what was meant. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems to me that both the Shards and the various mortal peoples of the Cosmere show a healthy mistrust of futuresight.

After all it is a dangerous thing to look into the future as suddenly everything can change (as has been explained in Stormlight the further one looks the more things 'fragment').

Calling futuresight 'Voidish' sounds like Honor mistrusting Odium who has superior futuresight to Honor. Cultivation's views do not seem to be as shared as Honor's with the population of Roshar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AFdooda said:

Calling futuresight 'Voidish' sounds like Honor mistrusting Odium who has superior futuresight to Honor. Cultivation's views do not seem to be as shared as Honor's with the population of Roshar.

I would say that calling it "Voidish" sounds like Vorin religious dogma, evolved over millennia of distrust, superstition and fear. After-all, even if it has some basis in fact, wouldn't it really "mean" (OB, RoW Spoilers)

Spoiler

- This is of Humans. Humans are the Voidbringers

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread brings up something I have long wondered about. Why did Honor say to Dalinar in the visions, that foreseeing the future was forbidden, even though the point of the visions was a warning to someone thousands of years into the future? It's a blatant contradiction, and BS doesn't do those, except on purpose to wave a big flag and say, "Look at this right here that clearly doesn't make sense! WHY DOESN'T IT MAKE SENSE READERS?" As has already been mentioned in this thread, Honor said the Cultivation is better at seeing the future than he is, and it's also well known that all of the shards can see the future (some better, and some worse).

It seems to me that the OP is right and that Truthwatchers could see the future, either through connection to Honor or Cultivation, but most likely both as it would reflect their unity as does their investiture of Towerlight. I think that Renarin represents something totally new, even beyond what Navani and Raboniel achieve in their blending of investitures. I believe that Renarin's Order of Truthwatchers draw their power from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium in unity...and that is why Odium is becoming increasingly blinded to those around Renarin, and soon to be Rlain. Because the unification of all three powers surpasses anything Odium can ever have the ability to do as a single shard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I believe that Renarin's Order of Truthwatchers draw their power from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium in unity...and that is why Odium is becoming increasingly blinded to those around Renarin, and soon to be Rlain. Because the unification of all three powers surpasses anything Odium can ever have the ability to do as a single shard.

No, it's about future vision. Renarin, a human, being able to draw from three Shards at once, would not be even close with the amount of raw power accessible to him compared to a Shard like Odium. There is just no comparison. Stormlight/Lifelight/Voidlight is just a tiny fraction of Shard's total power. And a human can't draw more power than Shard has in normal circumstances. The closest human can get is during Ascension, when he draws in all the power of the Shard, becoming that Shard.

Future vision is the reason Odium can't see well close to Renarin. Because Renarin can see the future, he can react to it, and change the future, which changes his future visions, and he can change the future even more. Odium sees the future mostly clearly around other people, he sees mostly things that are certain in close future, but if he looks close to Reanrin, now he sees every single future Renarin sees and all his actions he can take base on those future visions, and that changes Odium's future visions, spliting them into more and more actions and reactions he can take. 

It's like Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Atium future sight. Two people burning Atium can look into each other future, which changes the way they will react, which creates more Atium shadows, which gives them more future possibilities to react to, which changes they way they will act, and this basically create a positive feedback loop, making future vision almost useless, as the future isn't certain, but it's a multitude of possibilities that you can't predict.

That's what Renarin is doing. He can look into Odium's future actions, which changes the actions people take, which changes the future, which changes the way Odium will act, which changes the visions Renarin sees, which changes the actions people take, and so on and so on, making it very hard for Odium to predict anything around Renarin even though he is a Shard. Close future that Odium normally sees as a certainty, now is split into multitude of different possibilities each equally as likely to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it’s not a matter of raw power. It’s a matter of capacity. What Renarin has the capacity to do atm vs what Odium has the capacity to do atm.

Yeah, I see what you’re saying that Renarin is essentially using the equivalent of a

Spoiler

Mistborn burning Atium. The thing is, two Mistborns burning atium are at a stalemate. And Renarin seeing Odium’s future should be stalemated by Odium seeing Renarin’s, but that isn’t what’s happening.

 Renarin’s visions can be wrong, but he still sees them, he’s not blinded to them. Odium’s foresight is blocked out around Renarin. Not just stalemated, but neutralized. There is a reason that Renarin is blocking out a Shard’s ability. It might not be for the reason I said, but there is a reason(s).
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

it’s not a matter of raw power. It’s a matter of capacity. What Renarin has the capacity to do atm vs what Odium has the capacity to do atm.

And here still Odium has much greater capacity, because he has more power to use than Renarin will ever have.

51 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Yeah, I see what you’re saying that Renarin is essentially using the equivalent of a

  Hide contents

Mistborn burning Atium. The thing is, two Mistborns burning atium are at a stalemate. And Renarin seeing Odium’s future should be stalemated by Odium seeing Renarin’s, but that isn’t what’s happening.

 Renarin’s visions can be wrong, but he still sees them, he’s not blinded to them. Odium’s foresight is blocked out around Renarin. Not just stalemated, but neutralized. There is a reason that Renarin is blocking out a Shard’s ability. It might not be for the reason I said, but there is a reason(s).
 

But that's what is happening. Their future visions both interfere with each other.

RoW ch 54:

Quote

See the blackness that will be, Renarin? Glys said.

“Friction between the two of you,” Renarin said, pointing up at the stained glass. “And a blackness interfering, marring the beauty of the window. Like a sickness infecting both of you, at the edges.”

“Curious,” Dalinar said, looking where Renarin had pointed, though he’d see only empty air. “I wonder if we’ll ever know what that represents.”

“Oh, that one’s easy, Father,” Renarin said. “That’s me.”

“Renarin, I don’t think you should see yourself as—”

“You needn’t try to protect my ego, Father. When Glys and I bonded, we became ... something new. We see the future. At first I was confused at my place—but I’ve come to understand. What I see interferes with Odium’s ability. Because I can see possibilities of the future, my knowledge changes what I will do. Therefore, his ability to see my future is obscured. Anyone close to me is difficult for him to read.”

 And confirmed by WoBs:

Spoiler

Questioner

So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and he uses futuresight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin's name linked to it.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Is that because Renarin's abilities interfere with Odium's futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it's going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are-- you can't-- It's the same sort of thing that if-- someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else's futuresight in any way, because once you use that it's going to cause you to act differently, which then-- And remember futuresight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. But yeah, it's just gonna mess things up.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Spoiler

The Young Pyromancer

Is the reason Renarin's name is greyed out due to a conflict of Fortune with Odium, similar to [an electrum] user fighting an atium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Odium's future vision isn't fully blocked by Renarin, it's split into too many different possibilities to be useful, he can't predict as well as in the other cases - that's why there was a "blackness" which Taravangian saw, it was Odium's uncertainty about Renarin's future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...