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Which Came First? Is there a Chicken-Egg problem with Elantris (the city)?


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Something is on my mind, and, I am hoping ya'll can explain to me / point out the Resolution I am missing:

  • The Coppermind entry on Elantris (here) notes that the city of Elantris was empty when the Aonic people's showed up, and, after a few decades of living there, some of them started going through the Shaod.
  • However, it also notes that Elantris was clearly built by Elantrians, as only they could have made the Aons that made the city work.
  • But, we find out in Elantris that, without the actual city of Elantris itself to channel AonDor.... people don't become Elantrians. They become Reod.
  • So, we appear to run into a bit of a chicken/egg problem:
    • the city is needed to create the people
    • who had to pre-exist the city
    • in order to build the city. (?)


My first thought was "well, Elantris could have been built pre-Splintering of Dominion/Devotion, when the rules were different. Okay, except, AonDor is part of a magic system that is tied to the specific local geography, and that geographic specificity is supposedly a result of the Splintering.

From the cited WOB:
 

Spoiler

" The reason is-- and we have announced it-- the reason it is is, so on Sel-- somebody killed the two deities there, right? And then stuffed their corpses, which are just huge magic reservoirs, just *inaudible*. So all their power stuffed up into what we call the Cognitive Realm, the realm of the mind, which is location dependent. So all the magic is getting filtered through that, it does weird things to it, it makes it region-locked. "

 

Assuming the Coppermind is reading that correctly (and, on its face, that seems like the most direct reading), then, are we not left with a chicken-egg problem in the city of Elantris?

 

 

Edited by Lost Lobo
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5 hours ago, Lost Lobo said:
  • But, we find out in Elantris that, without the actual city of Elantris itself to channel AonDor.... people don't become Elantrians. They become Reod.

I think this is where your chain of logic is misleading you. What we found out in Elantris is that the Aon Rao created by the 5 cities affected the natural expression of the Shaod such that when the land no longer matched Elantris' Connected construct - that construct failed and caused the effects known as the Reod.

The Shaod itself existed before the city, but was different (likely not even creating the "white hair, silver skin" effect).

Quote

Assuming the Coppermind is reading that correctly (and, on its face, that seems like the most direct reading), then, are we not left with a chicken-egg problem in the city of Elantris?

You may also be missing this nugget (from the Elantris Glossary)

Spoiler

Aonic—(A)

1) A language spoken in Arelon and Teod. It was originally based on the Aons.

2) A racial group that originated in Teod. People of Aonic descent are characterized by blonde hair and tall frames. Most people in Teod are pure Aonic, while those in Arelon have intermixed more with the eastern nations.

So, the best supposed timeline we have been able to piece together is something like this:

  • The Natives of the region build the Elantris Construct to amplify AonDor
    • Possibly with the help of Devotion and/or Dominion
  • Odium Splinters Aona and Skai
    • Odium stuffs the investiture of Devotion and Dominion into the Cognitive Realm
    • This fundamentally effects how the Elantris Construct is Connected and functions
  • The Natives of the region die out
    • Either as a consequence of the Splintering, or for other causes after the Splintering
  • Teos cross the straits into (what would be) Arelon
    • Eventually, those peoples become Connected to the land enough for the Dor to see them and their descendants as "Aonic" and the Shaod starts to create new Elantrians.
    • The New Elantrians, over time, begin to "discover" the Aons and decipher how the magic and city work.
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4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think this is where your chain of logic is misleading you. What we found out in Elantris is that the Aon Rao created by the 5 cities affected the natural expression of the Shaod such that when the land no longer matched Elantris' Connected construct - that construct failed and caused the effects known as the Reod.

The Shaod itself existed before the city, but was different (likely not even creating the "white hair, silver skin" effect).

You may also be missing this nugget (from the Elantris Glossary)

  Reveal hidden contents

Aonic—(A)

1) A language spoken in Arelon and Teod. It was originally based on the Aons.

2) A racial group that originated in Teod. People of Aonic descent are characterized by blonde hair and tall frames. Most people in Teod are pure Aonic, while those in Arelon have intermixed more with the eastern nations.

So, the best supposed timeline we have been able to piece together is something like this:

  • The Natives of the region build the Elantris Construct to amplify AonDor
    • Possibly with the help of Devotion and/or Dominion
  • Odium Splinters Aona and Skai
    • Odium stuffs the investiture of Devotion and Dominion into the Cognitive Realm
    • This fundamentally effects how the Elantris Construct is Connected and functions
  • The Natives of the region die out
    • Either as a consequence of the Splintering, or for other causes after the Splintering
  • Teos cross the straits into (what would be) Arelon
    • Eventually, those peoples become Connected to the land enough for the Dor to see them and their descendants as "Aonic" and the Shaod starts to create new Elantrians.
    • The New Elantrians, over time, begin to "discover" the Aons and decipher how the magic and city work.

 

Thank you for breaking this out for me. So, the order of events would seem to run:

  1. Pre/Proto-Elantrian.... (ahem?) "channelers" (?) of AonDor create the city of Elantris to concentrate/focus the power, making themselves (presumably) into Elantrianesque entities, possibly with Aona and Skai's help.
  2. Odium kills them; the Splintering / Effects of the Splintering / Something causes these people to disappear
  3. Teod crosses the Straits and sets up camp
  4. The concentrated flow of AonDor still needs a release, so, when those humans become Connected enough to the local geography to be conduits, they start becoming "modern" Elantrians.

The hangup I have is, the localization of the power (it's expression through the specific geography) is supposed to be a result of the Splintering. It seems as though we would have to flip #1 and #2 and add the disappearance as a separate event

  1. Odium kills Aona and Skai
  2. Pre/Proto-Elantrian.... (ahem?) "channelers" (?) of AonDor create the city of Elantris to concentrate/focus the power, making themselves (presumably) into Elantrianesque entities *
  3. Something causes these people to disappear (perhaps an origin story for the Ire?)
  4. Teod crosses the Straits and sets up camp
  5. The concentrated flow of AonDor still needs a release, so, when those humans become Connected enough to the local geography to be conduits, they start becoming "modern" Elantrians.

*If this is done with Aona and Skai's help, it would have to have been some kind of information they passed before they died, to be used after they were no more. (SA Spoiler):
 

Spoiler

Which we've seen at least one shard do elsewhere, in His own particularly terrifying and confusing way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lost Lobo
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2 hours ago, Lost Lobo said:

The hangup I have is, the localization of the power (it's expression through the specific geography) is supposed to be a result of the Splintering. It seems as though we would have to flip #1 and #2 and add the disappearance as a separate event

Right(ish) but I think there is a false assumption here. Elantris wasn't built where it was because that was the "focus" for AonDor; Arelon became the focus for AonDor because, after the Splintering, Elantris was the largest Connection between the investiture and the physical realm. 

I would not hazard to guess "why" the builders of the city chose that site - but after the Splintering the Dor expressed itself through AonDor there *because* Elantris was already in place stabalizing the Connection. Otherwise, why would the Aonic Teos not cause the focus of AonDor to be their peninsula across the sea - their true homeland? 

BTW, this is the RAFO and WOBs that lead to the conjecture about having Shardic help:

Spoiler
Quote

Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

Quote

zas678

Did Sel's early magic users have Aona's help in building Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO.

Quote

chalkonthewall

In Elantris did Elantris ever not exist? like before it was built did the Shaod choose people? and if it did was their power the same? I'm mostly asking that if they were to build another Elantris in Teod would Elantrians be just as powerful over there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is a point where Elantrians didn't exist. Excellent question. The rest is a RAFO.

Quote

Questioner

Was Elantris built before or after the prologue of Way of Kings

Brandon Sanderson

*Pauses* Go to my notes and find out. I would have to actually specifically look that one up. My instinct says.....oh boy.

Questioner

Yeah, because they're both really old.

Brandon Sanderson

They're really old. They're both really old. I want to say that the prologue is older, but I don't know for sure, because I know things on Roshar are older. But, the prologue happens late in things on Roshar, so it's still old. So I'm gonna go with, I think this but I'd have to actually get the outline and look at the timeline. 

 

My personal theory is that Pre-Elantris there were two or three Invested Arts on Sel (Aona's, Skai's and a probable combination). The peoples in that region of (what is now) Opelon decided "If we build it, they will come" and built Elantris using one or more of those invested arts (probably the combination art if only one was used) - because by increasing the connection to the land they increaed their ability to draw investiture. This created the Shaod - though we don't know if that was intentional or a side effect of what they built.

Then the Splintering happened and the investiture was all stuffed into Shadesmar. As the investiture mingled there, the separate arts for Devotion and Dominion were lost (either immediately, or withered away) and the Combination Art that now accesses the combnied Dor investiture was changed to interact differently by region (partially becase Shadesmar has "space" and partially because the concept of the Dominion part of the Dor implies a nation/region connection - combined with Devotion that may imply "Love of Region").

So, now the Dor is expressed through dozens of invested arts based on region (AonDor, Chay Shan, Dhakor, Forgery, Bloodsealing, etc) - but they all have elements in common because they derive from the base-root of the original combined invested art. 

Edited by Treamayne
Clarity/SPAG
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