A Weird Thought about Hemalurgic Spikes, Feruchemy, and Allomantic Chromium

[Trusk'our]

We know that if you pierce your body with Metalminds then if you get Leeched your Metalminds also get Leeched away.

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ConQuest 46 (May 22, 2015)

Kaymyth

I asked the question about chromium vs a Compounder with both Invested and un-Invested metals in both their stomach and piercings.

Brandon Sanderson

What it boils down to is this:

1) Yes, the piercings will get burned off.

2) The non-Invested metals go before the Invested ones. He said that because Invested metals are harder to affect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

But we also know that Hemalurgic spikes are immune to burned aluminum, which used a similar mechanic.

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Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

Questioner

If someone had a Hemalurgic spike and they burned aluminum, would the negation of-- am I going to get RAFO'd?

Brandon Sanderson

You're asking if it would destroy the Hemalurgic power? Burning aluminum at that point would not destroy the Hemalurgic power. It would pull the Investiture through whatever you're doing. It would blank your power, but it wouldn't destroy you being an Allomancer with the spike...

I actually considered this in building it and that would be too easy a way to remove Inquisitors, particularly if there were dissension between them.

And then, we also know that you can double your Hemalurgic spikes as Feruchemical storages, with the Investiture of both aspects being stored in different parts of the metal.

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Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Maru Nui

Can you both Feruchemically charge and Hemalurgically invest in the same piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

Maru Nui

What would happen if you burned the Feruchemically charged and Hemalurgically invested metal?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. 

SO, in conclusion, I see two possibilities:

1. If a Hemalurgist uses one of their spikes to double as a Feruchemical storage and they get Leeched, the part of their spike containing a Feruchemical charge gets burned away. This could be interesting to see, particularly since Hemalurgic spikes do not contain much Investiture within them typically. Just enough to "hotwire" the Spiritweb and grant powers or enhanced attributes. So it may be possible to use this method to minimize the size of your Hemalurgic spikes while providing the maximum Investiture such a spike could hold. Alternatively, you could use this method to test the actual amount of metal required to hold a Hemalurgic charge of a certian amount.

2. If the spike does not burn away when Leeched, then Hemalurgists actually have an advantage over natural Feruchemists in this area; other Feruchemists must either leave their Metalminds at least somewhat vulnerable to Steelpushing and Ironpulling or they must leave them vulnerable to being Leeched out of their bodies, but a Hemalurgist using a spike as a Metalmind has the best of both worlds.

3. If the Feruchemical charge is pulled out of the spike but the metal of the spike remains intact, then at the very least the Hemalurgist doesn't need to worry about getting more Metalminds, though they don't have any other cool advantage or unique mechanic.

[alder24]

Is "invested metals" referring to metalminds or god metals? There is a more recent WoB saying that leeching would work on Feruchemist only when he is tapping his metalminds.

Spoiler

Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

It might be both, but intent is required - Leecher won't burn away metalminds if he doesn't want to.

[Quantus]

So if Im reading the above references and WOBs correctly on Leeching effects: 

• Leeching Effects can force an Allomancer to burn the metal, regardless of whether it's invested as a metalmind or spike, though the target still needs to have the ability to Burn Metals and the less Invested metals go first. 
• If the target does not have the ability to Burn Metals, a Leeching effects can drain a Feruchemist's metalminds only while the Investiture is Kinetic.  
• Leeching alone will not be able to permanently Drain a Spike, for Doylistic reasons.  Instead you'd still have to remove (or Allomantically Burn) the Spike.

 

42 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Is "invested metals" referring to metalminds or god metals? There is a more recent WoB saying that leeching would work on Feruchemist only when he is tapping his metalminds.

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Questioner

Nicrosil and chromium, do those have any interaction with people using Feruchemy, or other Investiture in general? Leechers or Nicrobursts.

Brandon Sanderson

Could you use those on Feruchemists? You should be able to, yes.

Questioner

Would that only work while they're tapping it?

Brandon Sanderson

If it's active Investiture, probably yes. You'd probably need it to be kinetic Investiture in order for them to do anything about it.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

It might be both, but intent is required - Leecher won't burn away metalminds if he doesn't want to.

Follow-up question: Does the Tapping part of the statement only apply to Chromium, as in you cannot use Chromium to Super-fill a Metalmind?  Or is it saying you can only use leeching to Empty a Metalminds while the Ferring has gotten the Investiture flowing in the outward direction specifically?  If the later is true, would Leeching a Ferring prevent them from Filling metalminds, by shunting the "saved" investiture away before it could be stored and becomes static.  

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

• Leeching Effects can force an Allomancer to burn the metal, regardless of whether it's invested as a metalmind or spike, though the target still needs to have the ability to Burn Metals and the less Invested metals go first. 

Not to be confused with Nicrosil, with which you can burn someone else's metals instantly and give them all power from it, like duralumin. Leeching burns away the target's metals, without giving him any powers from that metal.

And because both aluminum and chromium physically destroy metals, this would likely mean that if non-allomancer has metals in him, you could still leech them out of him

Spoiler

Questioner

Aluminum, when you burn aluminum, does it actually destroy the metals or just take away their power?

Brandon Sanderson

It destroys the metals.

Questioner

Same with chromium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

So it actually gets rid of the metals?

Brandon Sanderson

It actually trans--  It does a--  matter, energy, investiture are the same things in the cosmere.  You have some sort of transfer happening relating to those things.

Questioner

The question sort of relates to metal poisoning--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you would not get metal poisoning after that.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Follow-up question: Does the Tapping part of the statement only apply to Chromium, as in you cannot use Chromium to Super-fill a Metalmind?  Or is it saying you can only use leeching to Empty a Metalminds while the Ferring has gotten the Investiture flowing in the outward direction specifically?  If the later is true, would Leeching a Ferring prevent them from Filling metalminds, by shunting the "saved" investiture away before it could be stored and becomes static.  

When Feruchemist is filling a metalminds, investiture is in the form of kinetic investiture, so you should be able to leech it as well. And it would apply to duralumin/aluminum and nicrosil as well. You could likely nicroburst a Feruchemist, that would be interesting.

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

And because both aluminum and chromium physically destroy metals, this would likely mean that if non-allomancer has metals in him, you could still leech them out of him

I dont think this part is true, I dont think Leechers are able to grant the ability to Burn Metals to their targets, just forcefully trigger it.  Otherwise Aluminum Gnats should logically be able to (uselessly) burn any viable metal they ate.  Or if they are granting the ability to burn metals externally, a Leecher Misting shouldnt be able to grant the ability to burn Metals that they cannot themselves Burn. 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont think this part is true, I dont think Leechers are able to grant the ability to Burn Metals to their targets, just forcefully trigger it.  Otherwise Aluminum Gnats should logically be able to (uselessly) burn any viable metal they ate.  Or if they are granting the ability to burn metals externally, a Leecher Misting shouldnt be able to grant the ability to burn Metals that they cannot themselves Burn. 

Do you need to be burning metals for leeching to leech them away? Because leeching doesn't grant any ability to their target, it just sucks out investiture and metals. So if you need to be burning metals for leeching to work on you, non-allomancers can't be leeched, but if you just need to have metals in you without burning them, non-allomancers should be also leechable.

In BoM ch 7, Wax was burning metal (I think to at least see steel lines)

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Something bounced down the hallway and came to a rest on the floor beside Wax, just outside the doorway in which he crouched. A small metal cube. He jumped back, fearing an explosive, but nothing happened. What had that been?
And then he realized with a deep, bone-chilling horror that he was no longer burning metal. There was nothing inside of him to burn.
His steel reserves had—somehow—vanished.

In the next chapter Marasi met the Leecher, who tried to use a cube on her, but she wasn't burning metal, yet still had it. However it is unclear if Leecher charged the cube, because the train was slowed down and he fell on the ground, losing the cube, which Marasi picked up. He didn't throw the cube, so he likely didn't activate it.

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The man smiled at her, then abruptly raised his hand, the one that appeared to be clutching something. Marasi started to react, bringing her rifle up. But at that moment, the train unexpectedly lurched, slowing as if someone had leaned on the brake. The man cursed, stumbling and slamming into the wall before falling to the floor. Marasi caught herself, but dropped the rifle

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

Wayne was leeched out of his bendalloy in his stomach when he wasn't burning it, so I think this definitely proves you don't need to burn them when you're being leeched for leeching to work.

 

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Do you need to be burning metals for leeching to leech them away? Because leeching doesn't grant any ability to their target, it just sucks out investiture and metals. So if you need to be burning metals for leeching to work on you, non-allomancers can't be leeched, but if you just need to have metals in you without burning them, non-allomancers should be also leechable.

This is the logical leap that I dont understand.  The Leecher is force activating the Burn Metal ability of their Target, as part of Allomancy's unique Non-Invested Matter Conversion Investiture effect. But without the Spiritweb circuitry for Metal Burning in the target the Leecher has no way to make that Matter Conversion happen; they can flush out Investiture and prevent certain effects, but they themselves only have the circuitry for burning Chromium.    

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In BoM ch 7, Wax was burning metal (I think to at least see steel lines)

In the next chapter Marasi met the Leecher, who tried to use a cube on her, but she wasn't burning metal, yet still had it. However it is unclear if Leecher charged the cube, because the train was slowed down and he fell on the ground, losing the cube, which Marasi picked up. He didn't throw the cube, so he likely didn't activate it.

TLM spoilers:

  Hide contents

Wayne was leeched out of his bendalloy in his stomach when he wasn't burning it, so I think this definitely proves you don't need to burn them when you're being leeched for leeching to work.

 

Im not saying the target has to be actively Burning their metals for them to be Leeched away, Im just saying the target has to have the ability to Burn the Metal in question before a Leecher can force the Process to activate.  If Wayne ate Bendalloy, Gold, and Steel, a Leecher would only destroy the Bendalloy in his belly and leave both the Gold and Steel untouched, and the reverse would be true for a coinshot like Wax.  A Leecher likewise could not feed a random non-Scadrian, non-Allomancer full of Aluminum or Iron or Gold and make it disappear (say, to hide evidence or whatever).  

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

This is the logical leap that I dont understand.  The Leecher is force activating the Burn Metal ability of their Target, as part of Allomancy's unique Non-Invested Matter Conversion Investiture effect. But without the Spiritweb circuitry for Metal Burning in the target the Leecher has no way to make that Matter Conversion happen; they can flush out Investiture and prevent certain effects, but they themselves only have the circuitry for burning Chromium.    

It's not the target that burns/activates metal because of leeching, it's the Leecher that pulls the power away from the target, and makes them lose their metals. Target doesn't burn metal, nor it's forced to burn metals (that's more what nicrosil is doing). Like it was in a newspaper story in BoM, about woman leecher (Nicki Savage?), she described leeching "like pulling power from the metal and returning it to an external source". So it's the Leecher that does the conversion, and it's the Leecher that returns the power to SR. Not the target. Leecher doesn't activate the target's powers.

If the leecher would "force activating the Burn Metal ability of their Target", the target would get powers from it like when normally burning metal, because what you are describing is burning metal normally.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 3/21/2023 at 4:14 PM, Quantus said:

This is the logical leap that I dont understand.  The Leecher is force activating the Burn Metal ability of their Target, as part of Allomancy's unique Non-Invested Matter Conversion Investiture effect. But without the Spiritweb circuitry for Metal Burning in the target the Leecher has no way to make that Matter Conversion happen; they can flush out Investiture and prevent certain effects, but they themselves only have the circuitry for burning Chromium.    

Im not saying the target has to be actively Burning their metals for them to be Leeched away, Im just saying the target has to have the ability to Burn the Metal in question before a Leecher can force the Process to activate.  If Wayne ate Bendalloy, Gold, and Steel, a Leecher would only destroy the Bendalloy in his belly and leave both the Gold and Steel untouched, and the reverse would be true for a coinshot like Wax.  A Leecher likewise could not feed a random non-Scadrian, non-Allomancer full of Aluminum or Iron or Gold and make it disappear (say, to hide evidence or whatever).  

The Leecher isn't forcing an Allomancer to burn their metals, because burning the metals necessarily means that the Allomancer should draw power from them, and if that was the case, A-Chromium would have the exact same effect as A-Nicrosil. But it doesn't. It's the Leecher's powers searching for Allomantically viable metals in the body of the target, converting them into Investiture and pulling it away, and returning it to the SR. A-Chromium isn't forcing the body of the target to Burn the metals, they themselves are getting rid of it. The target's abilities, or their Spiritweb, don't enter the equation. So If a Leecher Leeched Wayne, and he had eaten Bendalloy, Gold, and Steel, it would burn away all three, regardless of which one he actually had the ability to Burn, and regardless of which ones he was Burning at the time. Same for a Non-Allomancer. Hope that clears it up

Edit: I just thought to clarify, a Leecher cannot Leech any metals that aren't Allomantically viable, however.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper