How Marsh Walks About Undetected

[Longshot97 Ardent]

So, I'm almost certain others have theorized this already, but after some extensive searching, I was unable to find anyone on here who did. So, here we go.

In Epilogue 7, Marsh approaches Wax, Steris, and Marasi before Wayne's statue. When asked on how he walks about without drawing attention, he passes it off as emotional Allomancy.

Quote

Another figure approached, this one wearing a long black coat and hat. He stepped up beside them, inspecting the statue through spiked eyes.

“It looks good,” Death said.

“How is it,” Steris said, “you walk around without drawing attention?”

“Emotional Allomancy,” he said absently.

Still, Wax expresses his doubts.

Quote

“Regardless, I didn’t meet Wayne as he left. Harmony did that personally. Yes, your friend is gone.” He nodded to the statue. “Remarkable likeness… It took an intervention to get Vin’s right. But this is spot-on from the first try.”

He nodded to the group of them, then handed a small note to Wax. From there, Death withdrew. Wax didn’t buy his explanation of using emotional Allomancy to remain hidden. There was something more here.

I think all Cosmerenauts on all worlds stirred in their beds with that phrase. But regardless, this moves on to my theory.

I think Marsh moves about unseen through a combination of emotional Allomancy... and Feruchemical duralumin.

To quote from the Coppermind, Feruchmeical duralumin functions as such.

Quote

A duralumin Ferring is known as a Connector. Duralumin is used to store Spiritual Connection. Filling a duraluminmind can be used to reduce other people's awareness of and friendship with the Connector, as these Spiritual Connections become stored away. Tapping it would strengthen Connections or allow the Connector to form relationships faster.

This seems a very likely explanation for that "something more" Wax postulates. Granted, don't know if Marsh was given spikes following the Catacendre, and there is no way of knowing if Rashek was aware of duralumin's Feruchemical properties. Still, he was a Feruchemist himself, and discovered duralumin. It makes sense he would test it.

Anyway, there's my three cents. Thoughts?

~Longshot97

[alder24 Wyrn the King]

Yup, I agree, he likely has F-duralumin spike. It has the same description. And in AoL he wasn't that good with emotional Allomancy. And if some Inquisitors were given F-Atium spikes by Ruin, which seems like a huge waste, why not F-duralumin?

Spoiler

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

 

[Kelkamer Bridgeman]

I completely agree it has to be F-Duralumin with the emotional allomancy. At least that's what I took it as when I read it. 

It'd be pretty neat if he's the character we see play with those powers in the future

[Stormtide_Leviathan Silent Gatherer]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

And if some Inquisitors were given F-Atium spikes by Ruin, which seems like a huge waste

The Atium retcon offers a possible alternative explanation but also raises new questions. Since we know the atium used was actually nalatium, an atium-electrum alloy, and that "atium mistings" were actually electrum mistings, we can assume the same is true of feruchemy since they're working with the same alloy, which would mean the spikes granting F!Atium are actually granting F!Electrum. Now what does F!Electrum store? Determination.

Huh. This is where the new questions come in, cause why the heck would Ruin want inquisitors that can store and tap determination? If they tap a whole bunch, that might be enough to resist him for a little bit. Maybe he wants them constantly *tapping* determination so they'd be less able to resist him, but that just seems like far too risky a play since they could still tap the metalmind the moment the control slips a little.

So basically, Ruin might not have cared about having inquisitors with F!(nal)atium, he might have wanted inquisitors with F!electrum, but really neither one makes much sense

[alder24 Wyrn the King]

9 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

The Atium retcon offers a possible alternative explanation but also raises new questions. Since we know the atium used was actually nalatium, an atium-electrum alloy, and that "atium mistings" were actually electrum mistings, we can assume the same is true of feruchemy since they're working with the same alloy, which would mean the spikes granting F!Atium are actually granting F!Electrum. Now what does F!Electrum store? Determination.

No, no, you're wrong here. Atium-electrum is its own thing, separate from electrum. Atium-electrum Mistings are separate from electrum Mistings. So Atium-electrum metalmind stores youth, not determination, as its not electrum. It's an alloy of electrum, which changes its Allomantic and Feruchemical properties. Spikes granting Atium-electrum give only Atium-electrum powers, not electrum powers. Those are two seperate powers.

[JustQuestin2004 High Prelan]

Chances are Ruin didn't care much for what powers were granted to his Inquisitors, he just wanted more Spikes in them to control them better.

After all, the effects of Feruchemical Electrum were mostly unknown, so the Inquisitors wouldn't have thought to use it. Plus Ruin could have just physically stop them from ingesting Electrum.

[alder24 Wyrn the King]

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Chances are Ruin didn't care much for what powers were granted to his Inquisitors, he just wanted more Spikes in them to control them better.

Not really, 4 spikes and more give Ruin full control over them. Koloss are an example, Ea 2 talks about it as well. And as WoB says, there are "reasons" for that. We just don't know it. After all its god metal, and maybe there is a way to do something more with it than just regular Feruchemy and Allomancy.

3 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

After all, the effects of Feruchemical Electrum were mostly unknown, so the Inquisitors wouldn't have thought to use it. Plus Ruin could have just physically stop them from ingesting Electrum.

We have no confirmation if Inquisitors have F-electrum. They could have gotten them, but "determination" is already provided by Ruin's control over them. Marsh is fully obedient to every Ruin's command.

Edited March 21 by alder24

[Longshot97 Ardent]

On 3/20/2023 at 7:51 AM, alder24 said:

No, no, you're wrong here. Atium-electrum is its own thing, separate from electrum. Atium-electrum Mistings are separate from electrum Mistings. So Atium-electrum metalmind stores youth, not determination, as its not electrum. It's an alloy of electrum, which changes its Allomantic and Feruchemical properties. Spikes granting Atium-electrum give only Atium-electrum powers, not electrum powers. Those are two seperate powers.

Do you have a citation for this? Because to this point, I've assumed that was up in the air, whether or not nalatium mistings are actually electrum mistings. There's evidence for both sides.

[alder24 Wyrn the King]

3 minutes ago, Longshot97 said:

Do you have a citation for this? Because to this point, I've assumed that was up in the air, whether or not nalatium mistings are actually electrum mistings. There's evidence for both sides.

The biggest evidence that those are different metals and Mistings is in Snapping in HoA and math of it. 1/16 of those Snapped by Mists were made into Misting of one, specific metal. Those who were ill the longest became Atium Mistings (alloyed version). But that was still only 1/16 of them. Because Atium and Malatium were both inserted by Preservation to base Allomantic set of powers, and replaced 2 other metals (bendalloy and cadmium), this means it has to be like I said, electrum and atium-electrum Mistings are separate, otherwise 2/16 of Snapped would be Atium Mistings, and would be ill the longest. This wasn't the case. And then again, Misting can only burn one metal. The same applies for atiummind and Feruchemy.

Spoiler

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

If atium isn't a regular metal then why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

They were designed and created specifically to do what they did. Remember this is-- Preservation and Ruin were able to influence the world and rewrite people's spiritual DNA.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

[Harrycrapper Forger]

3 hours ago, Longshot97 said:

Do you have a citation for this? Because to this point, I've assumed that was up in the air, whether or not nalatium mistings are actually electrum mistings. There's evidence for both sides.

I will say before saying this that things aren't always as clear cut as we're lead to believe. But, Mistings are only supposed to have access to one type of metal; whether it's a base metal or an alloy, they only get one. So, electrum mistings being able to burn the electrum-atium alloy shouldn't be possible. Maybe there are shenanigans that come into play with god metals, but we don't really have any evidence of that. In addition, I believe one of the types of Mistings the Mists were snapping in HoA was electrum Mistings. And that would kinda throw off the whole 16 aspect that Preservation was playing on. 

[Stormtide_Leviathan Silent Gatherer]

4 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

But, Mistings are only supposed to have access to one type of metal; whether it's a base metal or an alloy, they only get one.

Yes and no. Think of compounding. An electrum misting can burn feruchemically charged electrum for a different effect. (Yes, in existing instances of this, the person has also been a ferring of that metal, which you might say is the reason they can do this, but I'm not sure that's true. Vin's experiment burning one of Sazed's metalminds indicates this- she felt the power, it wasn't just a normal effect, she just wasn't able to access it because of identity issues.) Adding investiture to a metal can change the effect, but doesn't change who can burn it. Godmetals are just solid investiture. Alloying a godmetal with electrum is probably, imo, like adding investiture to electrum by storing in it, just on a larger scale. So anyone who can burn electrum can burn the alloy. Godmetals can be burned by anyone afterall, and it would make sense that adding electrum means it can be burned by people who can burn electrum, rather than needing a whole new set of mistings.

It would make way more sense if the "atium" mistings were really just electrum mistings, and i don't think anything in the text invalidates that possibility

[Harrycrapper Forger]

5 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Yes and no. Think of compounding. An electrum misting can burn feruchemically charged electrum for a different effect. (Yes, in existing instances of this, the person has also been a ferring of that metal, which you might say is the reason they can do this, but I'm not sure that's true. Vin's experiment burning one of Sazed's metalminds indicates this- she felt the power, it wasn't just a normal effect, she just wasn't able to access it because of identity issues.) Adding investiture to a metal can change the effect, but doesn't change who can burn it. Godmetals are just solid investiture. Alloying a godmetal with electrum is probably, imo, like adding investiture to electrum by storing in it, just on a larger scale. So anyone who can burn electrum can burn the alloy. Godmetals can be burned by anyone afterall, and it would make sense that adding electrum means it can be burned by people who can burn electrum, rather than needing a whole new set of mistings.

This isn't quite how compounding works. A metalmind that someone can use for compounding isn't just metal with investiture added (and it's also worth noting that the investiture stored by feruchemists is extremely minimal compared to the pure investiture of a god metal). A compounder is using the investiture that fuels their allomantic abilities to instead fuel their feruchemical abilities. And they very much do need the ability to use that feruchemical ability to preform compounding, the identity is not the only component to that. 

You're not just adding investiture to a metal, you're alloying it which creates something new. And alloying metals does indeed change who can use them aside from Mistborn.

23 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It would make way more sense if the "atium" mistings were really just electrum mistings, and i don't think anything in the text invalidates that possibility

I'm sorry, but no it actually creates a bunch of plot holes in Era 1. Electrum was known by the Steel Ministry and they tested Obligators for all the metals, not just the ones TLR let the public know about. Yomen would have been able to burn electrum and atium when he was tested. Additionally, Preservation programmed the Mists to snap people to be able to burn one of 16 metals, which included both electrum and atium. I respect the theorycrafting, but that is just simply a fact you can't logic around. 

You are right in that Brandon wants to make atium more accessible and I alluded to the fact that the metallic arts aren't quite as set in stone as we're lead to believe. Sazed evidently can just change how a lot of this stuff works and it seems even other factors can affect how the magic systems work(see the hemalurgic spike limit described in TLM Ars Arcanum). But, for Era 1 and Era 2(given that none of this was explored in depth in any of the Era 2 books due to lack of atium), it would be too much a retcon to have Mistings able to burn their respective alloys of atium. 

[Longshot97 Ardent]

2 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

This isn't quite how compounding works. A metalmind that someone can use for compounding isn't just metal with investiture added (and it's also worth noting that the investiture stored by feruchemists is extremely minimal compared to the pure investiture of a god metal). A compounder is using the investiture that fuels their allomantic abilities to instead fuel their feruchemical abilities. And they very much do need the ability to use that feruchemical ability to preform compounding, the identity is not the only component to that.

You're not just adding investiture to a metal, you're alloying it which creates something new. And alloying metals does indeed change who can use them aside from Mistborn.

I'm sorry, but no it actually creates a bunch of plot holes in Era 1. Electrum was known by the Steel Ministry and they tested Obligators for all the metals, not just the ones TLR let the public know about. Yomen would have been able to burn electrum and atium when he was tested. Additionally, Preservation programmed the Mists to snap people to be able to burn one of 16 metals, which included both electrum and atium. I respect the theorycrafting, but that is just simply a fact you can't logic around. 

You are right in that Brandon wants to make atium more accessible and I alluded to the fact that the metallic arts aren't quite as set in stone as we're lead to believe. Sazed evidently can just change how a lot of this stuff works and it seems even other factors can affect how the magic systems work(see the hemalurgic spike limit described in TLM Ars Arcanum). But, for Era 1 and Era 2(given that none of this was explored in depth in any of the Era 2 books due to lack of atium), it would be too much a retcon to have Mistings able to burn their respective alloys of atium. 

I think these are well-reasoned arguments, and excellent point about Yomen and the Steel Ministry. There are possibly ways Brandon could retcon that, but for now, those stand as good reasons against electrum mistings=atium listings.

It would make sense though, wouldn't it? If the Atium Retcon exists so that pure atium can be burned by any who swallow it (like lerasium) and it is possible to alloy God Metals with other viable metals to create unique effects when burned, then it should stand to reason that those specific mistings would have the key to unlock the functionality of that God Metal alloy. Then again, a big point of metallurgy is that an alloy is not simply two metals combined, but an entirely new metal. Having there be unique mistings for God Metal alloys would preserve the spirit of that.

And hey, maybe all Scadrians are Metalborn in some sense. If there are sixteen (excuse me, 17, now) unique metals for each Shard (actually, 18, since Brandon mentioned the Dor has a unique God Metal) and each of those can be alloyed with the 16 normal metals...then we get to God Metals being alloyed with other God Metals...that's an awful lot of variability.

[alder24 Wyrn the King]

14 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Adding investiture to a metal can change the effect, but doesn't change who can burn it.

It's still the same metal, which filters what investiture pulled from Preservation is doing. Feruchemical charge is another filter to that metal. God metal however is not just pure investiture, it's also a metal. And burning a god metal doesn't pull the power from Preservation, it uses up the god metal to fuel your Allomancy. That's a huge difference.

14 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

It would make way more sense if the "atium" mistings were really just electrum mistings, and i don't think anything in the text invalidates that possibility

Math does. Why only 1% of 16% those who were snapped by Mists were Atium Mistings? Why do only those people lay ill the longest? Why wasn't it 2%? We know both era 1 Atium and Malatium replaced 2 basic metals from the set of 16 Allomantic metals, as this was Preservation's plan. WoBs confirm this. So why only 1% was snapped to become Atium Mistings? If what you're saying is true, it should be 2%, not 1%.

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)