Marabout

Unmade origin theory

5 posts in this topic

The Unmade are described in places as splinters of Odium but I find this unlikely.

I don’t think that Odium would splinter his own power to create powerful entities.

I also don’t think that he would use his own power to make entities that might one day work against him.

My theory is that the Unmade were once splinters of Ambition.

We know that Odium injured Ambition in the Threnodite system but that she fled.  He chased her down and finished the job….so where are her splinters?

The Unmade are said to have been made then Unmade.  The making would be when the shard of Ambition was picked up and the Unmaking would be when Odium splintered her.  He then corrupted the remaining splinters.

The corrupted splinters, however, are not completely under his control as they do not share his Intent.

Thoughts?

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I find it far more likely that the Unmade were more powerful spren on Roshar that Odium corrupted during the early times of his arrival on Roshar. They were made by the larger quantities of investiture on Roshar and Unmade by the corruption of Odium.

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13 hours ago, Marabout said:

I don’t think that Odium would splinter his own power to create powerful entities.

Every Voidspren and Fused is a splinter of Odium. 

13 hours ago, Marabout said:

I also don’t think that he would use his own power to make entities that might one day work against him.

Passion! The Vessel might not like disagreement but the power loves it. It was mentioned in the Sja-anat interlude in RoW.

13 hours ago, Marabout said:

We know that Odium injured Ambition in the Threnodite system but that she fled.  He chased her down and finished the job….so where are her splinters?

Shades? The Evil on Threnody? It's very likely they are Ambition's splinters, But Ambition was only hurt on Threnody, she was Splintered somewhere else.

 

We've seen how unmaking sprens works with the Sibling. Raboniel infused them with Voidlight which would corrupt them and unmade them. This is likely how all Unmade were made, as they are called this way. So Unmades were once powerful sprens of some other Shard (maybe even Adonalsium's) but were infused with Voidlight and Unmade.

And the most important thing, splinters like spren can have a separate intent from their Shard, so Unmades don't have to share Odium's intent.

Spoiler

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

 

Odium also didn't plan to stay on Roshar and fight in Desolations. So I doubt that he would invest in Unmades before coming to Roshar, as he had no reasons to weaken and bind himself to a system yet. After he was trapped on Roshar he couldn't get Ambition's splinters as they were far away from him.

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First off, void Spren and fused are not relatively powerful.


How do you know that Ambition’s splinters were far away?  We don’t know where she was when he finished her off (except that she was Not in the Threnodite system so no the shades are not from Ambition’s demise… they could be from her injury).

For all we know, Ambition was killed on Roshar.

Do we even know when and where the Unmade were created?  Odium could have brought the Unmade with him to Roshar.

There are many unknowns and many possibilities.

Overall, the Unmade are just too powerful to simply be corrupted Spren, especially since everybody knows the “Uber” Spren of Roshar and there would be a record of the Unmade prior to their corruption.  Also, the “Uber” Spren that we know are associated with Honor and Cultivation… so did they have 9 other “Uber” Spren that they just allowed to become corrupted?  Unlikely.

And if you state that the Unmade were once powerful Spren from Another Shard, then why not Ambition?

Your argument contradicts itself… you state that Odium wouldn’t make Unmade before coming to Roshar but also state that he used powerful Spren from another Shard?  Makes no sense.  
 

BTW, not being confrontational, it’s a good debate!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Marabout said:

First off, void Spren and fused are not relatively powerful.

But there is a lot of them.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

How do you know that Ambition’s splinters were far away?  We don’t know where she was when he finished her off (except that she was Not in the Threnodite system so no the shades are not from Ambition’s demise… they could be from her injury).

It had to be outside of Roshar system, as there are no large remains of Ambition power there, nor her Rhythms are present there. Whatever it was, it wasn't in Roshar system, and that's enough for Odium to be unable to reach it after being bound to Braize and Roshar system.

Shades might be for splintered parts of Ambition. It was described in Ars Arcanum that chunks of Ambition rained down on Threnody.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

For all we know, Ambition was killed on Roshar.

No, Ambition investiture would be everywhere on Roshar, and by this time likely gained sentience (like Dor). Her Rhythms would be present in the system, despite being splintered. And Splintering is a violent process, which leaves scars.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Do we even know when and where the Unmade were created?  Odium could have brought the Unmade with him to Roshar.

Which makes no sense as why would he reduce his power when all he wants to do is to go from system to system and splinter Shards? It was even said that he didn't want to invest fully on Roshar.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Overall, the Unmade are just too powerful to simply be corrupted Spren, especially since everybody knows the “Uber” Spren of Roshar and there would be a record of the Unmade prior to their corruption.

People don't know how Aimia got destroyed or what Shardblades are, and that was just 1500 years before WoK. Or what Oathgates are, where the Tower is. Or that the Tower is Sibling. People don't know there is Odium and Cultivation on Roshar. They don't know humanity came from Ashyn and were the first Voidbringers, while Parsh were Dawnsingers and later Voidbringers. I think Roshar fully shows us that they are not that good at keeping their historical records.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Also, the “Uber” Spren that we know are associated with Honor and Cultivation… so did they have 9 other “Uber” Spren that they just allowed to become corrupted?  Unlikely.

Not every Unmade is intelligent. Thrill is mindless. Odium likely didn't need Bondsmith spren for all of them to unmade Unmade. And Sibling was almost Unmade. So it is likely.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

And if you state that the Unmade were once powerful Spren from Another Shard, then why not Ambition?

Because there is nothing that suggests that Ambition's investiture is present in Roshar system in large quantities.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Your argument contradicts itself… you state that Odium wouldn’t make Unmade before coming to Roshar but also state that he used powerful Spren from another Shard?  Makes no sense.  

What another Shard? Honor and Cultivation? Then yes. From those two, after he got trapped in the Roshar system. Powerful doesn't necessarily mean intelligent. Like Cusicesh spren, isn't as invested as Nightwatcher, but more than regular spren, with unknown level of intelligence.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

BTW, not being confrontational, it’s a good debate!

Me too, I like good discussions :)

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