Unmade origin theory

[Marabout]

The Unmade are described in places as splinters of Odium but I find this unlikely.

I don’t think that Odium would splinter his own power to create powerful entities.

I also don’t think that he would use his own power to make entities that might one day work against him.

My theory is that the Unmade were once splinters of Ambition.

We know that Odium injured Ambition in the Threnodite system but that she fled.  He chased her down and finished the job….so where are her splinters?

The Unmade are said to have been made then Unmade.  The making would be when the shard of Ambition was picked up and the Unmaking would be when Odium splintered her.  He then corrupted the remaining splinters.

The corrupted splinters, however, are not completely under his control as they do not share his Intent.

Thoughts?

[TheSurvivorofDeath]

I find it far more likely that the Unmade were more powerful spren on Roshar that Odium corrupted during the early times of his arrival on Roshar. They were made by the larger quantities of investiture on Roshar and Unmade by the corruption of Odium.

[alder24]

13 hours ago, Marabout said:

I don’t think that Odium would splinter his own power to create powerful entities.

Every Voidspren and Fused is a splinter of Odium. 

13 hours ago, Marabout said:

I also don’t think that he would use his own power to make entities that might one day work against him.

Passion! The Vessel might not like disagreement but the power loves it. It was mentioned in the Sja-anat interlude in RoW.

13 hours ago, Marabout said:

We know that Odium injured Ambition in the Threnodite system but that she fled.  He chased her down and finished the job….so where are her splinters?

Shades? The Evil on Threnody? It's very likely they are Ambition's splinters, But Ambition was only hurt on Threnody, she was Splintered somewhere else.

 

We've seen how unmaking sprens works with the Sibling. Raboniel infused them with Voidlight which would corrupt them and unmade them. This is likely how all Unmade were made, as they are called this way. So Unmades were once powerful sprens of some other Shard (maybe even Adonalsium's) but were infused with Voidlight and Unmade.

And the most important thing, splinters like spren can have a separate intent from their Shard, so Unmades don't have to share Odium's intent.

Spoiler

Josh

Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards'?

Brandon Sanderson

Splinters often have their own intent.

West Jordan signing (Aug. 4, 2011)

 

Odium also didn't plan to stay on Roshar and fight in Desolations. So I doubt that he would invest in Unmades before coming to Roshar, as he had no reasons to weaken and bind himself to a system yet. After he was trapped on Roshar he couldn't get Ambition's splinters as they were far away from him.

[Marabout]

First off, void Spren and fused are not relatively powerful.

How do you know that Ambition’s splinters were far away?  We don’t know where she was when he finished her off (except that she was Not in the Threnodite system so no the shades are not from Ambition’s demise… they could be from her injury).

For all we know, Ambition was killed on Roshar.

Do we even know when and where the Unmade were created?  Odium could have brought the Unmade with him to Roshar.

There are many unknowns and many possibilities.

Overall, the Unmade are just too powerful to simply be corrupted Spren, especially since everybody knows the “Uber” Spren of Roshar and there would be a record of the Unmade prior to their corruption.  Also, the “Uber” Spren that we know are associated with Honor and Cultivation… so did they have 9 other “Uber” Spren that they just allowed to become corrupted?  Unlikely.

And if you state that the Unmade were once powerful Spren from Another Shard, then why not Ambition?

Your argument contradicts itself… you state that Odium wouldn’t make Unmade before coming to Roshar but also state that he used powerful Spren from another Shard?  Makes no sense.  
 

BTW, not being confrontational, it’s a good debate!

 

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

First off, void Spren and fused are not relatively powerful.

But there is a lot of them.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

How do you know that Ambition’s splinters were far away?  We don’t know where she was when he finished her off (except that she was Not in the Threnodite system so no the shades are not from Ambition’s demise… they could be from her injury).

It had to be outside of Roshar system, as there are no large remains of Ambition power there, nor her Rhythms are present there. Whatever it was, it wasn't in Roshar system, and that's enough for Odium to be unable to reach it after being bound to Braize and Roshar system.

Shades might be for splintered parts of Ambition. It was described in Ars Arcanum that chunks of Ambition rained down on Threnody.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

For all we know, Ambition was killed on Roshar.

No, Ambition investiture would be everywhere on Roshar, and by this time likely gained sentience (like Dor). Her Rhythms would be present in the system, despite being splintered. And Splintering is a violent process, which leaves scars.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Do we even know when and where the Unmade were created?  Odium could have brought the Unmade with him to Roshar.

Which makes no sense as why would he reduce his power when all he wants to do is to go from system to system and splinter Shards? It was even said that he didn't want to invest fully on Roshar.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Overall, the Unmade are just too powerful to simply be corrupted Spren, especially since everybody knows the “Uber” Spren of Roshar and there would be a record of the Unmade prior to their corruption.

People don't know how Aimia got destroyed or what Shardblades are, and that was just 1500 years before WoK. Or what Oathgates are, where the Tower is. Or that the Tower is Sibling. People don't know there is Odium and Cultivation on Roshar. They don't know humanity came from Ashyn and were the first Voidbringers, while Parsh were Dawnsingers and later Voidbringers. I think Roshar fully shows us that they are not that good at keeping their historical records.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Also, the “Uber” Spren that we know are associated with Honor and Cultivation… so did they have 9 other “Uber” Spren that they just allowed to become corrupted?  Unlikely.

Not every Unmade is intelligent. Thrill is mindless. Odium likely didn't need Bondsmith spren for all of them to unmade Unmade. And Sibling was almost Unmade. So it is likely.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

And if you state that the Unmade were once powerful Spren from Another Shard, then why not Ambition?

Because there is nothing that suggests that Ambition's investiture is present in Roshar system in large quantities.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

Your argument contradicts itself… you state that Odium wouldn’t make Unmade before coming to Roshar but also state that he used powerful Spren from another Shard?  Makes no sense.  

What another Shard? Honor and Cultivation? Then yes. From those two, after he got trapped in the Roshar system. Powerful doesn't necessarily mean intelligent. Like Cusicesh spren, isn't as invested as Nightwatcher, but more than regular spren, with unknown level of intelligence.

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

BTW, not being confrontational, it’s a good debate!

Me too, I like good discussions 

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

So… where do we think the Unmade came from?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 3/19/2023 at 1:18 PM, alder24 said:

Every Voidspren and Fused is a splinter of Odium. 

I don't imagine that they make up any big portion of his power, added together.

On 3/19/2023 at 1:18 PM, alder24 said:

Passion! The Vessel might not like disagreement but the power loves it. It was mentioned in the Sja-anat interlude in RoW.

That's true. Sucks for Rayse (and now Todium)

On 3/19/2023 at 1:18 PM, alder24 said:

Shades? The Evil on Threnody? It's very likely they are Ambition's splinters, But Ambition was only hurt on Threnody, she was Splintered somewhere else.

Do Shades count as Splinters of Ambition or Investiture Corrupted by her power? They do have red eyes, sometimes.

On 3/19/2023 at 1:18 PM, alder24 said:

We've seen how unmaking sprens works with the Sibling. Raboniel infused them with Voidlight which would corrupt them and unmade them. This is likely how all Unmade were made, as they are called this way. So Unmades were once powerful sprens of some other Shard (maybe even Adonalsium's) but were infused with Voidlight and Unmade.

Kind of, but not exactly. The Sibling is unique among Spren just for how much they've manifested into the Physical Realm; They are the Tower, and every single Fabrial inside it (barring a few) is a physical manifestation of their power. For them, infusion with Voidlight would be enough to Corrupt them. That could even work on other Spren-Fabrials like Soulcasters. But for regular Spren like Syl or even Lesser Spren, you'd need to force Odious Investiture into them in a much more violent way. You can't just infuse them with it because they aren't gems, Investiture resists Investiture, you'd have to force it into them. Or, like Sja-Anat, you have to convince the Spren, then Corrupt them.

On 3/19/2023 at 1:18 PM, alder24 said:

And the most important thing, splinters like spren can have a separate intent from their Shard, so Unmades don't have to share Odium's intent.

Odium also didn't plan to stay on Roshar and fight in Desolations. So I doubt that he would invest in Unmades before coming to Roshar, as he had no reasons to weaken and bind himself to a system yet. After he was trapped on Roshar he couldn't get Ambition's splinters as they were far away from him.

I thought the OP meant that after Splintering Ambition, he Corrupted her Investiture into the Unmade so that they could help him Splinter other Shards, then made his way to Roshar. I don't think Ambition was Splintered on Roshar, but it very well could have been somewhere in its vicinity. He might have planned to use the Splinters on other planets too.

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

But there is a lot of them.

There can't be so many as to make up a significant portion of Odium's power though.

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

It had to be outside of Roshar system, as there are no large remains of Ambition power there, nor her Rhythms are present there. Whatever it was, it wasn't in Roshar system, and that's enough for Odium to be unable to reach it after being bound to Braize and Roshar system.

Shades might be for splintered parts of Ambition. It was described in Ars Arcanum that chunks of Ambition rained down on Threnody.

No, Ambition investiture would be everywhere on Roshar, and by this time likely gained sentience (like Dor). Her Rhythms would be present in the system, despite being splintered. And Splintering is a violent process, which leaves scars.

I think we can all agree that Ambition definitely was not Splintered on Roshar, or even that close to it (otherwise there would be Shades or something similar on Roshar)

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

Which makes no sense as why would he reduce his power when all he wants to do is to go from system to system and splinter Shards? It was even said that he didn't want to invest fully on Roshar.

I don't think the Unmade take up all that much of his power either. And like I said earlier, he may have just intended to take the Unmade everywhere with him to help in Splintering other Shards.

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

People don't know how Aimia got destroyed or what Shardblades are, and that was just 1500 years before WoK. Or what Oathgates are, where the Tower is. Or that the Tower is Sibling. People don't know there is Odium and Cultivation on Roshar. They don't know humanity came from Ashyn and were the first Voidbringers, while Parsh were Dawnsingers and later Voidbringers. I think Roshar fully shows us that they are not that good at keeping their historical records.

That they are.

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

Not every Unmade is intelligent. Thrill is mindless. Odium likely didn't need Bondsmith spren for all of them to unmade Unmade. And Sibling was almost Unmade. So it is likely.

The Unmade could have been turned mindless intentionally, but generally this seems to be true.

On 3/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

Because there is nothing that suggests that Ambition's investiture is present in Roshar system in large quantities.

It doesn't have to be.

Overall, I think the theory is valid, Odium would have done something to Ambition's Investiture, just to keep it from finding another Vessel, like he did with the Dor. But while the theory is valid, I think it's unlikely. The Unmade are probably just some variety of Spren from Roshar that got Corrupted. They don't even need to all be True Spren.

There's a theory that the Unmade's names denote how cognizant/clever they are:

Ba-Ado-Mishram is the smartest of the Unmade, with three words in her compound name

Sja-Anat, Re-Shephir, and Dai-Gonarthis are cognizant to some degree, but not extremely intelligent, with two words in their compound names.

Ashertmarn (Heart of the Revel), Chemoarish, Moelach (Death Rattle Guy), and Nergaoul (The Thrill) aren't compound names at all, and so these Unmade are mindless.

Going off of this, BAM may have been an "Uber" Spren, as the OP put it. The way Kalak talks about her in the RoW Epigraphs seems to support this idea, or at least that she was sapient beforehand. Sja-Anat, Dai-Gonarthis, and Re-Shephir may have been Nahel Spren, with Sja-Anat and Re-Shephir possibly being a Cryptic and Mistspren respectively. Ashertmarn, Chemoarish, Moelach, and Nergaoul would then be Lesser Spren.

 

[alder24]

That was 3 months ago. Why?

 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't imagine that they make up any big portion of his power, added together.

Of course not. But that investment slowly bound him to the Roshar system. 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Do Shades count as Splinters of Ambition or Investiture Corrupted by her power? They do have red eyes, sometimes.

No idea. The best we have was said in Arcanum Unbounded. It said that before the fight between Shards there was some form of Investiture present on the planet. This might mean natural Adonalsium investiture (possibly slightly higher than in non-Shard worlds), Ambition invested it, Mercy invested it, or both Mercy and Ambition invested the planet. Then the fight happened in the space between planets, and chunks of Ambition were thrown at Threnody and altered the planet and people living there, possibly corrupting native investiture of Threnody. By the way it was said I find it unlikely that Ambition invested in Threnody before the fight happened, because if that was the case I think her investiture raining down on the system would have far lesser impact than it had. That's why I think Shades are corrupted by her investiture, but aren't her direct splinters.

And there is this WoB, which suggests even more that Ambition didn't invest in the Threnody system before the fight happened.

Spoiler

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Ambition, the Shard *inaudible*. Is that the one you previously referred to as not on a planet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ambition would fulfill that requirement, but that's not the one I was referring to.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Kind of, but not exactly. The Sibling is unique among Spren just for how much they've manifested into the Physical Realm; They are the Tower, and every single Fabrial inside it (barring a few) is a physical manifestation of their power. For them, infusion with Voidlight would be enough to Corrupt them. That could even work on other Spren-Fabrials like Soulcasters. But for regular Spren like Syl or even Lesser Spren, you'd need to force Odious Investiture into them in a much more violent way. You can't just infuse them with it because they aren't gems, Investiture resists Investiture, you'd have to force it into them. Or, like Sja-Anat, you have to convince the Spren, then Corrupt them.

Yes, the Sibling is an exception, but the rules are the same - forcefully inject them with Odium's investiture. And it can be done without their consent - Sja-Anat knows that Odium will unmake her children and take their memories. Odium can do it directly, possibly under specific circumstances. In most cases Odium directly infused spren with his investiture, unmaking them. Voidlight is Odium's investiture, more physical however, which would be enough for the Sibling.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I thought the OP meant that after Splintering Ambition, he Corrupted her Investiture into the Unmade so that they could help him Splinter other Shards, then made his way to Roshar. I don't think Ambition was Splintered on Roshar, but it very well could have been somewhere in its vicinity. He might have planned to use the Splinters on other planets too.

Every Splinter Odium would make before coming to Roshar would weaken him in a direct fight against a Shard. Splinters do nothing when Shards clash directly with their full power, they're too weak to make any difference, and they're mostly in PR and CS - not SR where the majority of the fight is happening. If Odium made his Splinters, this would weaken him, and potentially bound him a bit to the place where he created them. And leaving a system in which he invested is a very difficult process, hurtful even. He wouldn't create Unmades before coming to Roshar.

Spoiler

Questioner

When one of the shards, like Odium, move from world to world in the cosmere, does their presence, like the metals they leave behind and their magic, leave with them?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium never really settled on a planet.  He is now settled on Roshar and his magic has permeated things.  Leaving would be very difficult for him. It would either involve leaving behind some of his power or ripping that out, which would be a difficult process.  So yes it is very tough to leave.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

There can't be so many as to make up a significant portion of Odium's power though.

There are possibly millions of Voidspren, thousands of Fused. It doesn't matter that they still aren't a significant portion of his power, they are enough to slightly weaken him (which in a direct confrontation with another Shard would matter), they are Splinters of him (which was the main point of this, OP said Odium wouldn't splinter himself, I showed him that he already did it), and they are enough of them to bound him to Roshar.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Overall, I think the theory is valid, Odium would have done something to Ambition's Investiture, just to keep it from finding another Vessel, like he did with the Dor.

Making Unmades out of it won't prevent somebody from Ascending to one of the remaining chunks of Ambition. Odium didn't do anything to Honor like he did to Devotion and Dominion, and now he regrets it. If Ambition was Splinter in the middle of the space, there is almost no way for somebody to locate it, travel there and Ascend. And if she was Splinter into many pieces (that's true, one such piece was left in Threnody) that's likely enough to prevent somebody from Ascending. Again, Honor, except for Splintering him, Odium did nothing more. If a Shard is Splintered it's really hard to combine it back together and Ascend to the whole Shard.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

That was 3 months ago. Why?

The post before mine was only 18 hours ago, and the thread was at the top of the forum. I didn't realize it was so old until you said so.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, the Sibling is an exception, but the rules are the same - forcefully inject them with Odium's investiture. And it can be done without their consent - Sja-Anat knows that Odium will unmake her children and take their memories. Odium can do it directly, possibly under specific circumstances. In most cases Odium directly infused spren with his investiture, unmaking them. Voidlight is Odium's investiture, more physical however, which would be enough for the Sibling.

That's exactly it. It just doesn't necessarily prove that the Unmade were Spren beforehand.

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Every Splinter Odium would make before coming to Roshar would weaken him in a direct fight against a Shard. Splinters do nothing when Shards clash directly with their full power, they're too weak to make any difference, and they're mostly in PR and CS - not SR where the majority of the fight is happening. If Odium made his Splinters, this would weaken him, and potentially bound him a bit to the place where he created them. And leaving a system in which he invested is a very difficult process, hurtful even. He wouldn't create Unmades before coming to Roshar.

There are possibly millions of Voidspren, thousands of Fused. It doesn't matter that they still aren't a significant portion of his power, they are enough to slightly weaken him (which in a direct confrontation with another Shard would matter), they are Splinters of him (which was the main point of this, OP said Odium wouldn't splinter himself, I showed him that he already did it), and they are enough of them to bound him to Roshar.

I can't find it right now, but there was a WoB that Odium doesn't rely only on direct Shard-to-Shard fighting to Splinter the other Shards, so as long as the Splinters don't remove too much power from him, he may not be too worried about it. Plus, sheer power doesn't matter all that much. Harmony is twice as powerful as Odium, and yet:

Quote

Questioner

Is Harmony stronger than Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Harmony has two shards. So by raw power he is stronger than Odium. Odium is much more warrior-minded and killing-minded, so I don't know if Harmony could actually beat him. But Odium is scared of Harmony.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Making Unmades out of it won't prevent somebody from Ascending to one of the remaining chunks of Ambition. Odium didn't do anything to Honor like he did to Devotion and Dominion, and now he regrets it. If Ambition was Splinter in the middle of the space, there is almost no way for somebody to locate it, travel there and Ascend. And if she was Splinter into many pieces (that's true, one such piece was left in Threnody) that's likely enough to prevent somebody from Ascending. Again, Honor, except for Splintering him, Odium did nothing more. If a Shard is Splintered it's really hard to combine it back together and Ascend to the whole Shard.

Making Unmade would indeed not get rid of the issue, but if you have all of this leftover Investiture and you're about to just leave it, you might as well Corrupt some of it to create useful little underlings to help you in your serial killer aspirations. If Ambition was Splintered in the middle of space and he recreated what he did to Devotion and Dominion, her power would now be in the Cognitive Realm, which is significantly smaller, especially in, around, and between uninhabited places/planets with no sapient life, so it wouldn't be that hard to locate her power, even more so because the Cosmere is a relatively small galaxy. This has sparked an idea in me though, so I'll be making a new thread about it soon.

Also, there are WoBs that Odium has found a better way to make the Investiture inaccessible and unAscendable:

Quote

Argent

...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards--

Brandon Sanderson

There were better ways he could have done what he did.

Argent

And he then learned at least a little bit better?

Brandon Sanderson

He learned at least a little bit better.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Ambition wasn't Splintered in the contest with Odium. Is there a reason why he hasn't chosen another Avatar [Vessel] yet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

The question is phrased a bit weirdly in the second one, but the idea is that Odium has done something to Ambition's Investiture, which is why it hasn't acquired another Vessel.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's exactly it. It just doesn't necessarily prove that the Unmade were Spren beforehand.

Sja-Anat calls the Sibling her cousin. That's a big clue in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I can't find it right now, but there was a WoB that Odium doesn't rely only on direct Shard-to-Shard fighting to Splinter the other Shards, so as long as the Splinters don't remove too much power from him, he may not be too worried about it. Plus, sheer power doesn't matter all that much. Harmony is twice as powerful as Odium, and yet:

I don't remember WoB like that. There is a WoB that said Shards avoid direct confrontations unless there is something that makes them believe they will have an advantage. Splinters don't count for me as an advantage. Breaking words yes.

Spoiler

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

Spoiler

 

Paladin Brewer

Out of all the Shards, why does Odium go for Devotion and Dominion?

Brandon Sanderson

He targets people with two kinds of ideas. Number one, he can argue they're breaking the rules they set out. And two, people he thinks are a good match for him, or a challenge, or a danger.

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)

 

 

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

And yet Sazed is bound by two opposing intents, unable to do almost anything at all. Not a good example.

Spoiler

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

Harmony has 2x the raw power of the Shard, but Sazed is still a human Vessel, with human limitations, he can't access that power. He can either access twice the amount of power as Rayse (because holding 2 Shards expands his mind twice), or the same amount (because human mind can only be so much expanded and a single Shard expands it already to the limit - I think this is more likely). And to add more, much of the power he uses is already bound to Scadrial and is used on the planet. This limits how much power can he throw at invading Shard.

In this case it's like Preservation investing slightly more in humans than Ruin - it was just a tiny bit, but enough to unbalance them and make Ruin stronger than Preservation. Odium making Unmades is just like that. Unmade are far more invested than humans, it would unbalance Odium in every encounter he was planning to do. It's just a bad idea for a Shard tha plans to take on two Shards at once next.

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Zas

So what's up with the regeneration issue? With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time?

Brandon Sanderson

What are you talking about? Like which shards?

Zas

Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them.

Brandon Sanderson

Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world." So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance... They are a special case, because of that.

Zas

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

Zas

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

Brandon Sanderson

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? Like, if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, you give them an edge somewhere else by trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Imagine a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here?

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

 

 

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Making Unmade would indeed not get rid of the issue, but if you have all of this leftover Investiture and you're about to just leave it, you might as well Corrupt some of it to create useful little underlings to help you in your serial killer aspirations.

Or don't touch it as it is binding you to that place and Unmades can't help in a direct fight against a Shard.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

If Ambition was Splintered in the middle of space and he recreated what he did to Devotion and Dominion, her power would now be in the Cognitive Realm, which is significantly smaller, especially in, around, and between uninhabited places/planets with no sapient life, so it wouldn't be that hard to locate her power, even more so because the Cosmere is a relatively small galaxy. This has sparked an idea in me though, so I'll be making a new thread about it soon.

If Ambition was treated like Devotion and Dominion, there would be a second source of unkeyed investiture in Cosmere, as placing so much investiture in CR would expand that region of CR, manifesting a new presence. That place would be well known, and would rival Sel and the Dor. We've never heard anything about it. This didn't happen. He didn't do with Ambition what he did with Devotion and Dominion.

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, there are WoBs that Odium has found a better way to make the Investiture inaccessible and unAscendable:

Which I think is something very recent, or at least he perfected it after Splintering of Honor, and after Stromfather became Tanavest's CS. He said it in OB, that he made a mistake leaving those pieces of Honor and he will "fix it". Splintening of Honor was likely a better idea than what he did on Sel, Ambition was Splintered later, so it's likely something different than what happened on Sel (no mention of another CR like Selish one) and closer to what he did with Honor. He was learning with every Shard he Splintered. 

The reason why Ambition can't choose another Vessel is that it's Splintered, in the middle of nowhere - somebody would need to first unite all pieces of Ambition to Ascend, which is almost impossible.

Unmade, while heavily invested, are too small to prevent somebody from Ascending to Ambition. 

And there is this WoB. He did what he did on Sel because he was inexperienced, so it makes little sense that he would do the same thing to Ambition, which he already knew it didn't go as planned.

Spoiler

Argent

I thought, like, at one of the signings you told me that when Odium was on Sel and Splintered the Shards there, the reason he did the Cognitive Realm hack was because he was not yet experienced in Splintering stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Right. He did not want what happened to happen, but he didn't know that he didn't want what happened to happen.

Argent

What I was getting at is, I could never find a recording of you saying "He was not experienced. He didn't want the power to be taken by anyone, and that's the only solution he could figure out." Does that sound like something you would say?

Brandon Sanderson

That is something I would say, yes... There are better ways to do what he wanted to do, which he later did a better job with. But there's not a lot of experimenting he could do.

Argent

Limited number of subjects, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

And there is this theory that Unmades were made out of Herald's minds. There are only 9 of them, just as the amount of Heralds that broke, and in OB ch 88 Jezrien said that "they ripped his mind and forced to dance, he watched the dance". The more sentient Unmades are made ouf of those who broke the most. I think that's far more likely than Unmades made out of corrupted Splinters of Ambition, that Odium just pulled along through Cosmere.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

22 hours ago, alder24 said:

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sja-Anat calls the Sibling her cousin. That's a big clue in my opinion.

Seons and Spren are both Splinters, I could see one calling the other cousin. Either way, it's a clue for me as well. I'm not advocating that the Ambition Splinter theory is true. Or even that it's likely, for that matter, just that there's no evidence against it.

Quote

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't remember WoB like that. There is a WoB that said Shards avoid direct confrontations unless there is something that makes them believe they will have an advantage. Splinters don't count for me as an advantage. Breaking words yes.

I FOUND IT:

Spoiler

ericth

What is Odium's edge. Vin and Ati killed each other but Rayse has downed 3 shards and survived. Was it skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power?

Brandon Sanderson

Some combination of the above.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

You guys have no idea how relieved I am, I've spent like a proper 5 hours trying to find this T-T.

But yes, this WoB says to me that pure Shardic mass is not the only factor in play in Splintering a Shard, at least not once you know what you're doing.

Quote

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

  Hide contents

And yet Sazed is bound by two opposing intents, unable to do almost anything at all. Not a good example.

  Hide contents

ericth

Could Sazed take down Rayse since he has two shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Rayse is VERY scared of Sazed. However, given Sazed is a composite of two diametrically opposed shards, he finds it very difficult to act.

Words of Radiance Los Angeles signing (March 5, 2014)

Harmony has 2x the raw power of the Shard, but Sazed is still a human Vessel, with human limitations, he can't access that power. He can either access twice the amount of power as Rayse (because holding 2 Shards expands his mind twice), or the same amount (because human mind can only be so much expanded and a single Shard expands it already to the limit - I think this is more likely). And to add more, much of the power he uses is already bound to Scadrial and is used on the planet. This limits how much power can he throw at invading Shard.

In this case it's like Preservation investing slightly more in humans than Ruin - it was just a tiny bit, but enough to unbalance them and make Ruin stronger than Preservation. Odium making Unmades is just like that. Unmade are far more invested than humans, it would unbalance Odium in every encounter he was planning to do. It's just a bad idea for a Shard tha plans to take on two Shards at once next.

Mistborn Spoilers:

Spoiler

Spoiler

The WoB doesn't bring up Sazed's limitation of action at all, only Rayse's violent nature, and perhaps that of his Shard. This to me suggested that even if Sazed was unhindered by his Intent and free to use as much power as he could, Rayse could still beat him just by taking advantage of Sazed's timidity and/or hesitance to stoop to violence. It wouldn't be easy and nor would Rayse walk away from it uninjured, but it suggests that Rayse's odds at winning are higher than we may think, irrespective of Harmony's bound nature. Add Harmony's conflicting nature on top of that, like what the WoB you cited says, and Sazed is in serious trouble, but that was in an entirely separate WoB, so it's not unreasonable to say that if in one WoB he does not mention Sazed's inability to act but rather focuses on Rayse's tenacity, the latter is enough of an advantage to pose a threat. Given the other WoB just above about Odium having the advantage of skill and ability, it doesn't seem all that unlikely. 

The thing about Preservation's extra Investment in humans making him weaker is more about the deadlock Ruin and Preservation are maintaining rather than direct confrontation. By Investing himself in humans, Preservation has given Ruin more wiggle room to manipulate his power, since it means Ruin has Investiture that isn't always in direct contest with Preservation and so is free to do other things. Minute differences in power don't matter too much in terms of Shardic fighting, not once you know what to do. Leras can't kill Ati no matter what. He's only a shadow of his former self, and he's carried the Intent of Preservation so long that the idea of harming even a human, like Elend, paralyzed him. Ruin could have Splintered Preservation at any point once he was freed from the Well, but he doesn't. He waits, sporadically attacking Leras to hasten his death, and once and only once Leras is well and truly slipping into the Beyond does Ruin begin Splintering Preservation:

Quote

Odd, the voice said. After all these years appearing for others as they died, I never expected . . . that my own passing would be so cold and lonely. . . . “I’m here for you,” Kelsier said. No. You weren’t. Kelsier, he’s splitting my power. He’s breaking it apart. It will be gone . . . Splintered. . . . He’ll destroy it.

Later on, once Vin Ascends and attacks Ruin, they both die without either Shard getting Splintered, which means that Ruin was inexperienced with Splintering such that if he had attacked Preservation, he too would have died in the attempt regardless of Leras's inability to fight back, and as such would have needed to get rid of Leras, exactly as we see him try to do.

And yet, Odium faces both Devotion and Dominion (with some help from Autonomy, though this may be relatively small), then fights Ambition (and possibly Mercy) before chasing Ambition down and killing her elsewhere, and then is confident enough to approach Honor and Cultivation, then eventually Splinter Honor. There's no way Odium is managing all of that by just throwing pure Shardic mass against his opponents, especially when some of them could have double-teamed him. The key lies, I believe, in that WoB about ability and skill. As Vin and Ati demonstrate, the most important part of Splintering a Shard is to kill the Vessel first. When Odium fights Shards, he may target the Vessel specifically, whereas the opponent may just be throwing themselves against his whole Shard rather than at Rayse specifically. Nightblood shows that the part of the Investiture that the Vessel occupies is extremely minute in the face of the entire Shard, and just like how Vin and Ati kill each other, Rayse may be simply throwing his entire Shardic weight at the Vessel to kill them, and then he can deal with the actual Shard afterward. All of this taken together with the comments about Rayse's chances at winning against Sazed, making Splinters wouldn't be a disadvantage to him so long as they don't take too much of his power, since they can help him interfere with the planetary events while he tackles the actual Shards. Corrupting the local Spren-like creatures, inspiring bloodlust in the humans, and having commanders step in in his stead, they can all be useful to sow chaos on the planet and force the Shard to split their attention and power to keep the planet in order. That could arguably be more useful than having just a tiny bit of extra Investiture on him, especially since most Shards have Invested in a planet and so can't mobilize the entirety of their Investiture against him while he, having not Invested in any planet and having brought any Splinters with him, could use a lot of Investiture to fight.

Honestly, the biggest problem in making the Unmade is just getting them out of their system of origin, but if Ambition was Splintered in the middle of space like you suggested, this would not be a problem.

 

Quote

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

`Or don't touch it as it is binding you to that place and Unmades can't help in a direct fight against a Shard.

Why would it bind you? Unless Ambition had somehow managed to fully Invest herself into a planet by the time Odium got to her, he wouldn't be binding himself to anything. You yourself said that Ambition was probably Splintered in outer space. You can't be bound to empty space.

Quote

If Ambition was treated like Devotion and Dominion, there would be a second source of unkeyed investiture in Cosmere, as placing so much investiture in CR would expand that region of CR, manifesting a new presence. That place would be well known, and would rival Sel and the Dor. We've never heard anything about it. This didn't happen. He didn't do with Ambition what he did with Devotion and Dominion.

The Ambition version of the Dor would not be unkeyed. Why do you say that? The Dor needs to be purified to become unkeyed. He would have needed to get rid of the Investiture somehow since leaving it in the Spiritual Realm would have led to it either acquiring a new Vessel or gaining sentience itself. Just as you say that we would have known about it by now, he must have done something else, and that's what I believe the "Something at least a little better" is that Rayse has figured out. I thought he may have pushed it into the Physical Realm in the middle of space, but that would have just formed a Perpendicularity. That's why I said that it would have been found by now, and you apparently agree.

Quote

Which I think is something very recent, or at least he perfected it after Splintering of Honor, and after Stromfather became Tanavest's CS. He said it in OB, that he made a mistake leaving those pieces of Honor and he will "fix it". Splintening of Honor was likely a better idea than what he did on Sel, Ambition was Splintered later, so it's likely something different than what happened on Sel (no mention of another CR like Selish one) and closer to what he did with Honor. He was learning with every Shard he Splintered.

I can't actually find that quote about Honor's pieces, can you quote it here? And he may not have done anything to Honor's Investiture due to fear of Cultivation, not because he didn't know how to do it. As we said, he didn't do a repeat of DnD with Ambition's Investiture, so he'd have devised some new way of getting rid of it, something he just couldn't do on Roshar without exposing himself to Cultivation. As for "fixing it", it may just be an empty threat, since we know Odium can't kill the Stormfather without risking an attack from Cultivation.

Quote

The reason why Ambition can't choose another Vessel is that it's Splintered, in the middle of nowhere - somebody would need to first unite all pieces of Ambition to Ascend, which is almost impossible.

The pieces can always become sentient on their own. A Shard's worth of Investiture would need to be spread very thin to stop it from gaining sentience. And how would he split it apart, what is "the middle of nowhere"? Investiture can't be spread out in the SR, it doesn't have locations. So it has to be either the CR or PR, and spreading it out in the CR would have similar effects as the Dor (and it would be found, as we said). Odium wouldn't want to recreate the Dor, but to avoid that he'd need to spread it out, and the problem repeats itself. I can only imagine there's a bunch of UliDaium beads floating around in space (in the PR) somewhere.

What is Splintering anyway, fundamentally? What's going on Realmatically to the Investiture? If I Splinter a Shard but leave it all untouched in the SR, will it just coalesce back into a single Shard again? If yes, how do you separate it without shoving it out of the SR? If no, why? 

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Unmade, while heavily invested, are too small to prevent somebody from Ascending to Ambition. 

True, but the point is that he would have taken advantage of having so much Investiture sitting around to create heavily Invested Entities before doing whatever he did to the rest of the Shard.

Quote

And there is this WoB. He did what he did on Sel because he was inexperienced, so it makes little sense that he would do the same thing to Ambition, which he already knew it didn't go as planned.

Exactly. I was arguing specifically that he didn't repeat that same process with Ambition, else someone would have found her Investiture by now.

Quote

And there is this theory that Unmades were made out of Herald's minds. There are only 9 of them, just as the amount of Heralds that broke, and in OB ch 88 Jezrien said that "they ripped his mind and forced to dance, he watched the dance". The more sentient Unmades are made ouf of those who broke the most. I think that's far more likely than Unmades made out of corrupted Splinters of Ambition, that Odium just pulled along through Cosmere.

That's fine. So long as the theory itself makes sense and is possible, it doesn't really matter which one you prefer.

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You guys have no idea how relieved I am, I've spent like a proper 5 hours trying to find this T-T.

I know that feeling.

10 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

But yes, this WoB says to me that pure Shardic mass is not the only factor in play in Splintering a Shard, at least not once you know what you're doing.

Of course not. The important part was that Odium could argue Shards he was attacking were breaking the agreement they made. Autonomy was somewhat involved in Splintering of Devotion and Dominion (the first one he ever did, and gained a lot of skill there), Mercy fought in Threnody, and possibly there were "we" that killed Honor. Not to mention Odium is the Shard of conflicts, Rayse and Odium paired together provided another advantage. And the raw power still matters. 

From Coppermind, it was also said that while Odium was successful in Splintering Devotion, Dominion and Ambition, all those fighting wounded him. I think it's advisable to keep as much raw power to himself rather than creating Splinters that can't aid him against another Shard in any meaningful way.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Mistborn Spoilers:

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The WoB doesn't bring up Sazed's limitation of action at all

The WoB literally said "Sazed finds it very difficult to act", which is also confirmed by Sazed's letter to Hoid and there are more WoBs like that:

Spoiler

Questioner

You've mentioned before that Odium is scared of Harmony. Is it only because of the raw power of the two Shards? Or is he scared of what Harmony represents? (Meaning the possibility of merging two Shards.) Was he aware that this was possible?

Brandon Sanderson

He, on one level, was aware. But it was more of awareness of this as a possibility. It actually happening is part of what has him scared. It's the idea of the two merging Shards both being more powerful and finding a harmony. (Which Sazed is actually having way more trouble doing than Odium realizes.) Those two things really have Odium scared. Because, partially, this means he has to find a way to destroy or split Harmony without taking up a second Shard himself, because Odium knows if he takes up a second Shard, terrible things will happen. And so he doesn't want to do that. (Terrible things as he views them.) And so he's gotta find a way to split this apart, or somehow otherwise defeat.

Now, the more he learns about Sazed's actual state, the less afraid he'll probably be. But that's an advantage that Sazed has right now.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Galavantes (paraphrased)

Is Harmony more powerful than other Shards?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

More powerful or more potent?

Galavantes (paraphrased)

Um, powerful.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Harmony is two shards in one.

Galavantes (paraphrased)

Could he take Odium?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

His two shards are at odds with one another.

(This was interesting to me, from his name being Harmony I had assumed Ruin and Preservation merged seamlessly. Brandon seems to be implying that while Sazed can utilize the power of both shards, he can't simply add them together)

A Memory of Light Raleigh Signing (Feb. 20, 2013)

 

Moreover Rayse had the advantage of skill, ability and knowledge - that's why he might be able to take Sazed.

Spoiler

Paladin Brewer (paraphrased)

I assume Sazed does not know the metal used in Lessie's spike because it's off-world, but Odium seems aware of Sazed/Harmony. Why is this?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has a lot more knowledge that Sazed, he has had the power longer, and there are forces purposely trying to limit Harmony's knowledge.

Calamity San Antonio signing (Feb. 26, 2016)

 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Minute differences in power don't matter too much in terms of Shardic fighting

You don't know this at all. If that was the case Odium wouldn't be so reluctant to invest in Roshar.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Leras can't kill Ati no matter what.

Because he's Preservation, his intent prevents this from happening. And he was already dead.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Ruin could have Splintered Preservation at any point once he was freed from the Well, but he doesn't.

He couldn't. Their powers were still equal, thrown at each other to prevent them from taking any actions. He needed Atium. He was only able to do it, because Leras used the rest of his mind and life to appear to Elend and then died - that's why Ruin was able to gain the advantage, as Leras's mind died at that moment. HoA ch 58 epigraph:

Quote

I don't know why Preservation decided to use his last bit of life appearing to Elend during his trek back to Fadrex. From what I understand, Elend didn't really learn that much from the meeting. By then, of course, Preservation was but a shadow of himself—and that shadow was under immense destructive pressure from Ruin.

Perhaps Preservation—or, the remnants of what he had been—wanted to get Elend alone. Or, perhaps he saw Elend kneeling in that field, and knew that the emperor of men was very close to just lying down in the ash, never to rise again. Either way, Preservation did appear, and in doing so exposed himself to Ruin's attacks. Gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a bare gesture, gone—even—were the days when he could strike a man down to bleed and die.

By the time Elend saw the "mist spirit," Preservation must have been barely coherent. I wonder what Elend would have done, had he known that he was in the presence of a dying god—that on that night, he had been the last witness of Preservation's passing. If Elend had waited just a few more minutes on that ashen field, he would have seen a body—short of stature, black hair, prominent nose—fall from the mists and slump dead into the ash.

As it was, the corpse was left alone to be buried in ash. The world was dying. Its gods had to die with it.

 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Later on, once Vin Ascends and attacks Ruin, they both die without either Shard getting Splintered, which means that Ruin was inexperienced with Splintering such that if he had attacked Preservation, he too would have died in the attempt regardless of Leras's inability to fight back, and as such would have needed to get rid of Leras, exactly as we see him try to do.

Khriss noted that Ruin is Splintering Preservation in a weird way, possibly because he's inexperienced. But then again, what Vin did was different. Odium was Splintering Shards to prevent anybody from Ascending, Vin wanted to just kill Ruin - she attacked his mind, both Vessels were separated form Shards, and the power of those two was left un-splintered. Vin just did something different. But as you quoted, once Ruin gained the advantage he started to Splintering Preservation.

And yes, Ruin would have died if he attacked Preservation when Leras was still there. Leras would be fighting back, that's the nature of Shard, his power was already thrown at Ruin to oppose his actions. Ruin would just push his power further and it would end in the same way as later Vin did. Their powers were equal and too polarized to let him survive such an attack. That polarization of power is essential to understand why Ruin didn’t Splintered Preservation earlier - he simply couldn’t without dying himself. Once Preservation lost his mind, Ruin used this opening to Splinter him.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And yet, Odium faces both Devotion and Dominion (with some help from Autonomy, though this may be relatively small), then fights Ambition (and possibly Mercy) before chasing Ambition down and killing her elsewhere, and then is confident enough to approach Honor and Cultivation, then eventually Splinter Honor. There's no way Odium is managing all of that by just throwing pure Shardic mass against his opponents, especially when some of them could have double-teamed him.

Firstly - he used the broken agreement to gain an edge. Secondly, Odium is selfish and all about conflicts, it's more natural to him to fight, and Rayse was a perfect match for this Shard. Thirdly Odium was wounded in every fight. It wasn't easy for him. 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

As Vin and Ati demonstrate, the most important part of Splintering a Shard is to kill the Vessel first. When Odium fights Shards, he may target the Vessel specifically, whereas the opponent may just be throwing themselves against his whole Shard rather than at Rayse specifically. Nightblood shows that the part of the Investiture that the Vessel occupies is extremely minute in the face of the entire Shard, and just like how Vin and Ati kill each other, Rayse may be simply throwing his entire Shardic weight at the Vessel to kill them, and then he can deal with the actual Shard afterward. 

I agree. Honor's death proves this.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

All of this taken together with the comments about Rayse's chances at winning against Sazed, making Splinters wouldn't be a disadvantage to him so long as they don't take too much of his power, since they can help him interfere with the planetary events while he tackles the actual Shards.

I disagree. Ruin and Kelsier showed us that once one Shard is attacking another, the second one is focusing almost entirely on that attack - which allowed Marsh to gain control and remove Vin's earring. Unmades would be almost useless. 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Corrupting the local Spren-like creatures, inspiring bloodlust in the humans, and having commanders step in in his stead, they can all be useful to sow chaos on the planet and force the Shard to split their attention and power to keep the planet in order.

This takes decades to make such an effect. This requires Odium to invest in some way into this world, which Odium always avoided. Devotion and Dominion were ignoring human affairs on Sel, they didn't care - it wouldn't work. We have no idea if Ambition invested in Threnody, but she for sure didn't invest in the place where she was Splintered. And Odium's attack on Sel was the first one, by Hoid's words his visit was "brief", and I think by this WoB he wasn't there long enough to figure a better way to Splinter Shards - if he was there for decades, why wouldn't Devotion and Dominion banish him as he was "settling" there without their permission? 

Spoiler

James Clifford

Science question!

Brandon Sanderson

Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science?

Adam Horne

It is Brandon science.

Brandon Sanderson

Fake science!

James Clifford

With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

*laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware.

It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Honestly, the biggest problem in making the Unmade is just getting them out of their system of origin, but if Ambition was Splintered in the middle of space like you suggested, this would not be a problem.

Possibly, or they would be bound to the region of CR where Ambition was Splintered like it was a planet.

 

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You can't be bound to empty space.

Why not? The presence of two Shards would warp the space and expand CR of that place. It's just another place, no different than Scadrial before Shards arrived there.

11 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The Ambition version of the Dor would not be unkeyed. Why do you say that?

Dor isn't unkeyed but can be. I meant that somebody can go there in CR, grab a bunch of investiture, unkeyed it and use it like unkeyed Dor. 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He would have needed to get rid of the Investiture somehow since leaving it in the Spiritual Realm would have led to it either acquiring a new Vessel or gaining sentience itself.

He could Splinter Ambition into so many pieces that each would have its own intent, acting like a mini-shard, impossible for somebody to Ascend to all of them at once. A mini-shard gaining sentience wouldn't rival him.

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I thought he may have pushed it into the Physical Realm in the middle of space, but that would have just formed a Perpendicularity. That's why I said that it would have been found by now, and you apparently agree.

Yes, he couldn't push it into PR or CS, because it would be a well known location. Making Unmades out of it would only take a little fraction of the whole power, too little to prevent the rest from gaining sentience or prevent somebody from Ascending to Ambition. 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I can't actually find that quote about Honor's pieces, can you quote it here?

I think it's OB ch 57:

Quote

“A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar,” Odium said. “And so, I cannot leave her behind. In fact, I cannot leave behind the Splinters of Honor, as I once thought I could. I can already see that going wrong. Once you release me, my transformation of this realm will be substantial.”

 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The pieces can always become sentient on their own.

Mini-shards aren't thread to him.

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And how would he split it apart

Just like he did it later with Honor, which he thought at that time that it would be enough. Because of that I see no reason to believe that he Splinter Ambition in a better way than he Splinter Honor, when he thought just Splintering Honor would be enough. He Splintered Ambition thinking it would be enough - I'm not saying it is, just that from his point of view it would be when he was doing that. Now he might think that it wasn't enough, just like with Honor. 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Investiture can't be spread out in the SR, it doesn't have locations.

But it can be separated from the whole. Andonalsium was separated into 16 Shards. Shards can be just Splintered, like Honor (there is no Honor's investiture raging in CR or PR), and Shard can be Splintered into smaller Shards, which is what I think Odium did, he splinter Ambition and Honor into many sub-intents ("I'm Unity"), separated from the whole.

Spoiler

Isaac Betzold

Could a Shard be split into smaller Intents, like if Honor were alive and then was split into maybe Integrity and Bravery?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible. Very plausible. You ask some weird things sometimes, this one is not that weird, this is very plausible.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

What is Splintering anyway, fundamentally? What's going on Realmatically to the Investiture? If I Splinter a Shard but leave it all untouched in the SR, will it just coalesce back into a single Shard again? If yes, how do you separate it without shoving it out of the SR? If no, why? 

We don't know, but we see it leave Shards divided permanently into small pieces, unable to unite on their own. Just like Adonalsium was Shattered into 16 parts, Spintering is the same on a smaller scale and it's happening in all 3 Realms. And Honor is a proof it doesn't always involve shoving Shard's investiture into PR or CR.

Spoiler

RabidHumanitarian

We have seen that two Shards can merge into one. Is the opposite possible?

Brandon Sanderson

The opposite is theoretically possible.

RabidHumanitarian

If yes, have we heard of Shards created this way?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not happened yet. Unless you count Splintering into a bunch of pieces, but that's not what they're asking.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did the shattering [Splintering] of Honor happen in the Cognitive Realm, and Ruin in the Physical? *Brandon laughs* The reason I'm wondering is, are spren the expression of the shattering in the Cognitive Realm while Ruin's physical being is an expression of the shattering in the Physical?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an interesting theory that I don't want to completely shoot down, but it is not heading in absolutely correct directions. The shattering of a shard is an event that transcends all three Realms.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

You've said that Splintering a Shard is essentially the same thing as the Shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah.

Mason Wheeler (paraphrased)

And Shardholders [Vessels] tend to take the name of the Shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two Shards... or one?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both Shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

A Memory of Light Seattle Signing (Feb. 12, 2013)

 

12 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Exactly. I was arguing specifically that he didn't repeat that same process with Ambition, else someone would have found her Investiture by now.

It really sounded like you were saying he did the same.