Most useful Allomantic or Feruchemical Power

[The Stick]

Any of the Sixteen metals are allowed in either Allomancy or Feruchemy. No Compounding.

Feruchemical Copper or Zinc would be my top Feruchemy.

Allomantic Zinc would be my favorite misting power.

[alder24]

Allomancy: pewter, steel, tin, zinc/brass, bendalloy and duralumin (if you have more than 1 power). If I had to choose one, it would most likely be pewter/steel - pewter just gives you so much at once, strength, speed, stamina, wakefulness, a bit of healing, warmth, balance, toughness - it just keeps going!

Feruchemy: zinc, steel, gold, pewter, tin, bronze, chromium (depending on what it does), copper, electrum, bendalloy - like all of them are very useful, it just depends on the situation you're in. If I had to choose only one, it would be zinc or steel. Being able to think faster is just too good (or not think at all).

[The Stick]

I agree with most, but I think pewter is less viable then zinc or brass. Then you could become a master manipulator and not need to fight, just push people's emotions hard enough. 

Quick question, would this change if you could use Dor as a power source?

 

 

[alder24]

Just now, The Stick said:

I agree with most, but I think pewter is less viable then zinc or brass. Then you could become a master manipulator and not need to fight, just push people's emotions hard enough. 

Well, it doesn't have to work like that. You can be like Breeze, but you can't create emotions they don't already have, you can't feel what they feel, and you only as good as subtle you are with touching emotions of others, and as good as good you are with recognizing emotions of others. Pushing on emotions too hard would only make it noticeable and it won't mean they have to obey you. And I don't want to manipulate people.

2 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Quick question, would this change if you could use Dor as a power source?

What change? You could still use Allomancy as usual. It's just a different source of power.

[The Stick]

No, but the effects are much stronger. You could in theory use it to supercharge something like steel which would basically let you break the sound barrier.

Using Nicrosil could be super fun though. Let's say you meet some surgebinding jerk like maybe Nale or Moash. They are lashing themselves up or really any direction. Touch them, and all of their Stormlight would be directed into a huge burst. This could in theory shoot them into space, or into the ground or a wall. Maybe use it on an Elsecaller while they teleport to potentially destabilize them and push them somewhere weird in the Cognitive Realm. 

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Stick

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, The Stick said:

No, but the effects are much stronger. You could in theory use it to supercharge something like steel which would basically let you break the sound barrier.

It could work like Mist, and Vin powered by Mist was much more powerful, to the point of pulling spikes and crushing Kredik Shaw. Whatever it would mean for Feruchemy, I don't know, you're using your own body to "power" it, but it's likely to use an external power source to power it, but it could require a few more steps - compounding is doing that.

Edit: you can still be faster than the speed of sound with regular steelmind, but you need to store a lot of attribute to be able to move that fast for "some" noticeable time.

Edited March 17, 2023 by alder24

[The Stick]

Have you read lost metal?

[alder24]

Just now, The Stick said:

Have you read lost metal?

Yes, spoilers from TLM are not allowed here.

Edited March 17, 2023 by alder24

[The Stick]

Spoiler

You know the scene where Marasi burns Dor with supercharged effects.

Basically, this is the same as burning the Mists. Both are bodies of Shards. Basically, it is the equivalent of wiring a computer meant to run from a medium powered wall outlet(Normal Metals) to powering it using a nuclear reactor.

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by The Stick

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, The Stick said:

  Reveal hidden contents

You know the scene where Marasi burns Dor with supercharged effects.

Basically, this is the same as burning the Mists. Both are bodies of Shards. Basically, it is the equivalent of wiring a computer meant to run from a medium powered wall outlet(Normal Metals) to powering it using a nuclear reactor.

TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

Yeah, I know (she didn't burn Dor, others were, she was burning Perpendicularity), that's why I was writing about Mists instead, as Mists and Dor are the same, and we've already seen Vin using them. Unnecessary spoiler tags are... unnecessary  

Yes, Dor is also a concentrated form of investiture, like Mists are, so the effects of using Dor as a power source would be similar.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

Allomancy I have to take either pewter or tin. They both give so much quality of life bonuses.   

Feruchemy.  Its got to be steel, zinc, or gold.  Bullet time, instant wit, and the ability to say no to a cold or papercut when they are becoming annoying are all so wonderful. 

I can't just pick 2.  Pewter and zinc probably would be my favorite combo.  Pewter can help you shrug off pain or sickness and moderately speed up recovery times while zinc can help for all the RP that comes with real life.  

I don't really do anything that makes needing steel or gold a top priority.  While tin would be great I think pewter just fills all of the physical enhancement I could ever feasibly need while allowing zinc to round out the edges.  

[The Stick]

Feruchemical Bendalloy would be great though so you could eat whatever you want in any quantity and just store away the calories.

[PinkPlasma]

On 3/19/2023 at 4:24 PM, The Stick said:

Feruchemical Bendalloy would be great though so you could eat whatever you want in any quantity and just store away the calories.

this, with A-pewter for me

[Sky Breaker]

well wood’s metal or cerrobend (real world bendalloy) is actually surprisingly cheap and both F-bendalloy or A-bendalloy are pretty good but A-pewter would be pretty good but imma go with A-bendalloy 

[The Stick]

I just realized the best job in history. Take F Bendalloy and eat to your heart's content. Fill yourself with the fattiest, most delicious, rich food possible. You are overwhelmed with super enjoyable flavors. Then, you put the calories in an unsealed metalmind, and sell them to people so they can spend time without food for whatever reason. This could even cure digestive disorders. Then, you become rich and extremely happy eating tasty food all day.

 

 

[Trusk'our]

On 3/23/2023 at 5:51 PM, The Stick said:

I just realized the best job in history. Take F Bendalloy and eat to your heart's content. Fill yourself with the fattiest, most delicious, rich food possible. You are overwhelmed with super enjoyable flavors. Then, you put the calories in an unsealed metalmind, and sell them to people so they can spend time without food for whatever reason. This could even cure digestive disorders. Then, you become rich and extremely happy eating tasty food all day.

But... why would anyone buy unhealthy pre-eaten food?

I think that if you ate only extremely healthy buy untasty food that people would then be willing to buy it.

[Argenti]

18 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

But... why would anyone buy unhealthy pre-eaten food?

I think that if you ate only extremely healthy buy untasty food that people would then be willing to buy it.

I'm assuming for those like lost in the desert? Or super spys

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:05 PM, alder24 said:

Well, it doesn't have to work like that. You can be like Breeze, but you can't create emotions they don't already have, you can't feel what they feel, and you only as good as subtle you are with touching emotions of others, and as good as good you are with recognizing emotions of others. Pushing on emotions too hard would only make it noticeable and it won't mean they have to obey you. And I don't want to manipulate people.

You can create emotions that aren't there with Zinc, but not with Brass. The emotional subtlety thing goes out the window since in real life why would anyone ever suspect you can control their emotions? It might still be useful to be subtle, but you could definitely be more blatant with it and still not get caught. It is a hard metal to utilise properly since you need to train yourself in recognizing emotions, but with practice its really not that hard.

It's a tough choice between Zinc and Pewter for me, but eventually I'd go for Zinc

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

You can create emotions that aren't there with Zinc, but not with Brass.

I don't believe you can create emotions even with zinc. You can't influence emotions that aren't there. Vin when sneaking into Fadrex cave tried to riot guards' emotions with no result - only duralumin made her succeed. Zinc + duralumin might be able to create emotions, but normal zinc does not.

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

The emotional subtlety thing goes out the window since in real life why would anyone ever suspect you can control their emotions? It might still be useful to be subtle, but you could definitely be more blatant with it and still not get caught.

People don't need to know about Allomancy to quickly realize that they have a crazy emotional rollercoaster only when they're speaking with you - they will start to avoid you, suspect something weird is happening, do the opposite of what their emotions are telling them, or call you a witch. Just avoid brute forcing people's emotions.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't believe you can create emotions even with zinc. You can't influence emotions that aren't there. Vin when sneaking into Fadrex cave tried to riot guards' emotions with no result - only duralumin made her succeed. Zinc + duralumin might be able to create emotions, but normal zinc does not.

Agree to disagree, I'm very convinced you can, but it's been a while since I read the books so I can't remember any bulletproof examples other than Allriane's Rioting of the sense of chivalry in a bunch of bandits and Vin Rioting fear in Kliss the night she kills Shan (because why would she be afraid prior to the Rioting of what she assumed up till then to be an inexperienced, unimportant countryside noble girl, let alone the fact that she still haggles for payment despite the Rioting). Finding instances of Rioting is hard enough as it is, what with the focus on Soothing, which can't create emotions. It just seems to me that it's logical that Rioting could create emotions, because the alternative cheapens the story every time someone uses emotional Allomancy in a dubious way, because it means Brandon is bending his own rules to pull off more dramatic scenes. As for in the Fadrex caves, Vin's pre-Duralumin Rioting still could have been working, it just wouldn't have been enough to make the guards start fighting. You can be angry and irritable but still have enough restraint to not do anything irrational. Its confusing because we can't see the guards, otherwise their expressions could have given their feelings pre-Duralumin away.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

People don't need to know about Allomancy to quickly realize that they have a crazy emotional rollercoaster only when they're speaking with you - they will start to avoid you, suspect something weird is happening, do the opposite of what their emotions are telling them, or call you a witch. Just avoid brute forcing people's emotions.

Fair, but you could still get away with a lot more than with someone in-world, and if you use the extra dramatic bursts of emotion in (reasonable) moderation (you don't need to be emotional rollercoaster extreme about it all the time anyway, you just don't have to be extremely subtle either), you could avoid being discovered altogether pretty easily. Besides, how often would you need to Riot the same person so many times? I imagine Rioting would be most useful with people who you don't know, since you have fewer tools to work with than against someone you know or spend time with, and what are the odds you'll ever see them again?

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

They will start to avoid you, suspect something weird is happening, do the opposite of what their emotions are telling them, or call you a witch.

You can still manipulate someone if they do the opposite of what you tell them, and if they start acting suspicious, you could Riot their sense of complacency and get them to open up about the fact that they think something weird is happening, make them feel silly about it with Rioting and then reassure them and send them off feeling confident and secure, again with Rioting. You could always lay off the Rioting for a while too, at least on that specific person. The solution is situational, but when you can influence both sides, it would be pretty easy to rectify

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I can't remember any bulletproof examples other than Allriane's Rioting of the sense of chivalry in a bunch of bandits

I'm reading it (not english version), WoA ch 50. Allrianne has never mentioned about chivalry, instead she thought about how she was able to manipulate them by looking like a lady in expensive dress and promise a great monetary reward, it is greed that she rioted. Nothing about chivalry.

Shallan achieved the same result by using bandits' feeling of chivalry and heroism without Emotional Allomancy. This proves that there might be bandits that just wait for an opportunity to become "good guys" again.

Quote

Vin Rioting fear in Kliss the night she kills Shan (because why would she be afraid prior to the Rioting of what she assumed up till then to be an inexperienced, unimportant countryside noble girl, let alone the fact that she still haggles for payment despite the Rioting).

Maybe because Vin first treated her with powerful soothing? Or Kriss was revealing her status as an informator, putting her livelihood and security in her hands? Or maybe she was revealing the secret of Shan who was a Mistborn and was an assassin working with Straff - if Vin intervened and failed, Shan, or worse Straff (she knew he was involved), would come to Kliss and kill her? Kliss didn’t fear Vin, the last option is the most likely source of her fear. Kliss revealed that Elend would die because she falsely assumed Vin would be glad to hear that after being dumped ("So Elend Venture turned you down after all. Don't worry, child. He'll get what he deserves soon.", "Didn't that boy just push you away? What do you owe him?"), thus she didn’t risk that somebody would try to prevent it from happening. Which is something she even told Vin: "I never sell secrets like this if there's a chance they'll turn against me!". No emotions were created here.

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

It just seems to me that it's logical that Rioting could create emotions, because the alternative cheapens the story every time someone uses emotional Allomancy in a dubious way, because it means Brandon is bending his own rules to pull off more dramatic scenes.

I see emotional Allomancy as a multiplicative factor - 0 times whatever number you take always gives 0.

Another example of Rioting comes from TLM:

Spoiler

Wax meating Death - Marsh was rioting the fear of death, which Wax felt for the moment, then realized that he already died and that's ok, he didn't have to fear that, and the effect of rioting completely disappeared from Wax, as there was no emotion to be rioted. TLM ch 28:

Quote

Something emanated from him. A dread that crushed the soul like a hand around yesterday’s broadsheet.
A ...No, Wax thought. I do not fear this. I’ve stared down death already.
Strangely, the sensation of dread evaporated from him. Had that been ...emotional Allomancy? It was difficult to recognize in the throes of it, but it appeared obvious in hindsight. Yet this time it didn’t affect Wax as it did everyone else, including Marasi, judging by how pale her face had gone.

 

 

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Fair, but you could still get away with a lot more than with someone in-world, and if you use the extra dramatic bursts of emotion in (reasonable) moderation (you don't need to be emotional rollercoaster extreme about it all the time anyway, you just don't have to be extremely subtle either), you could avoid being discovered altogether pretty easily. Besides, how often would you need to Riot the same person so many times? I imagine Rioting would be most useful with people who you don't know, since you have fewer tools to work with than against someone you know or spend time with, and what are the odds you'll ever see them again?

You can still manipulate someone if they do the opposite of what you tell them, and if they start acting suspicious, you could Riot their sense of complacency and get them to open up about the fact that they think something weird is happening, make them feel silly about it with Rioting and then reassure them and send them off feeling confident and secure, again with Rioting. You could always lay off the Rioting for a while too, at least on that specific person. The solution is situational, but when you can influence both sides, it would be pretty easy to rectify

I'm not saying that emotional Allomancy isn't useful in our world, only that you don't want to be too blunt with it, as people will realize that something is wrong. You can surely be less careful than on Scadrial, but it is still recognizable, so don't overdo it. Just that.

Edited May 8, 2023 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm reading it (not english version), WoA ch 50. Allrianne has never mentioned about chivalry, instead she thought about how she was able to manipulate them by looking like a lady in expensive dress and promise a great monetary reward, it is greed that she rioted. Nothing about chivalry.

I went back and checked, you're right, I was misremembering that one.

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Maybe because Vin first treated her with powerful soothing? Or Kriss was revealing her status as an informator, putting her livelihood and security in her hands? Or maybe she was revealing the secret of Shan who was a Mistborn and was an assassin working with Straff - if Vin intervened and failed, Shan, or worse Straff (she knew he was involved), would come to Kliss and kill her? Kliss didn’t fear Vin, the last option is the most likely source of her fear. Kliss revealed that Elend would die because she falsely assumed Vin would be glad to hear that after being dumped ("So Elend Venture turned you down after all. Don't worry, child. He'll get what he deserves soon.", "Didn't that boy just push you away? What do you owe him?"), thus she didn’t risk that somebody would try to prevent it from happening. Which is something she even told Vin: "I never sell secrets like this if there's a chance they'll turn against me!". No emotions were created here.

So, you're saying that Kliss, who by her own admonition "never sell(s) secrets... if there's a chance they'll turn against (her)", puts her livelihood and security in Vin's hands, which then makes her afraid? That she's afraid because she's risking both Straff and Shan's retribution, even though she was composed enough to laugh in Vin's face and blackmail her for more money about her Allomancy? It's awfully convenient of her to become afraid just as Vin begins Rioting her fear. Again, if you indeed can't create emotions through Allomancy, then it means Brandon is writing ridiculously specific circumstances into the book just for dramatic effect.

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Shallan achieved the same result by using bandits' feeling of chivalry and heroism without Emotional Allomancy. This proves that there might be bandits that just wait for an opportunity to become "good guys" again.

Shouldn't that be in a spoiler tag? And in that scenario, She isn't using Emotional Allomancy per se, but she is still manipulating them by magic means: It's her Lightweaver Resonance in effect. Besides, her case of making the deserters have a change of heart is slightly different, as she's dealing with disillusioned soldiers, whereas Allriane was dealing with bandits who are described as base and wanting only food, money, and sex. But that line of reasoning isn't relevant any longer, since Allriane wasn't Rioting the bandits into being more moral.

As for Wax, I thought he was instinctively burning trace amounts of Copper in that situation, given that in all other instances of someone realizing they're being influenced by Emotional Allomancy in both Eras, they can still feel the effects of it. In the very same book, Marasi has to force her way out of Armal's Shame! Shame! Shame! wave before she stops feeling the effects of the Allomancy. In SoS, Wax himself continues feeling the effects of Soothing even though he finds it disturbing in the Soothing parlor.

 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

So, you're saying that Kliss, who by her own admonition "never sell(s) secrets... if there's a chance they'll turn against (her)", puts her livelihood and security in Vin's hands, which then makes her afraid? That she's afraid because she's risking both Straff and Shan's retribution, even though she was composed enough to laugh in Vin's face and blackmail her for more money about her Allomancy? It's awfully convenient of her to become afraid just as Vin begins Rioting her fear. Again, if you indeed can't create emotions through Allomancy, then it means Brandon is writing ridiculously specific circumstances into the book just for dramatic effect.

Not exactly that, she already told Vin that Elend will die, therefore risking getting exposed which made her fear retribution a little. Fear was there before Vin revealed herself with Allomancy, which she explained during her struggle with emotional Allomancy with words "never sell(s) secrets... if there's a chance they'll turn against (her)". Just saying that Elend will die is putting her at risk, which she did before soothing and rioting. She made a mistake assuming that Vin will be happy to hear that.

Shan laughed about Vin "acting" and her spreading false information - not after emotional Allomancy. And after that she didn't say she wanted more money, only that Vin had to make sure the money would reach Kliss (likely meaning the same bribe as mentioned earlier with Renoux). The only moment she laughed is when Vin said she is going to save Elend.

21 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Shouldn't that be in a spoiler tag?

It's Cosmere forum.

21 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Marasi has to force her way out of Armal's Shame! Shame! Shame! wave before she stops feeling the effects of the Allomancy.

She didn't stop feeling it, she realized that she was always living with that feeling and this is nothing new to her, she could deal with it, but was still feeling it.

23 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Wax himself continues feeling the effects of Soothing even though he finds it disturbing in the Soothing parlor.

Feeling of disturbance doesn't make you realize that you don't feel emotions at all, like Wax in TLM. 

I admit, Wax burning copper there is a valid explanation, but I believe that was Wax realizing that he didn't fear death anymore, because he faced it already. It's just more impactful. Who else can tell that he died, came back and realized he doesn't fear death anymore?

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

17 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Not exactly that, she already told Vin that Elend will die, therefore risking getting exposed which made her fear retribution a little. Fear was there before Vin revealed herself with Allomancy, which she explained during her struggle with emotional Allomancy with words "never sell(s) secrets... if there's a chance they'll turn against (her)". Just saying that Elend will die is putting her at risk, which she did before soothing and rioting. She made a mistake assuming that Vin will be happy to hear that.

Shan laughed about Vin "acting" and her spreading false information - not after emotional Allomancy. And after that she didn't say she wanted more money, only that Vin had to make sure the money would reach Kliss (likely meaning the same bribe as mentioned earlier with Renoux). The only moment she laughed is when Vin said she is going to save Elend.

She laughs afterward too, before Vin says anything about saving Elend:

Spoiler

'Of course, foolish child,” Kliss said. “Lord Venture would love nothing more than an excuse to give the house title to his nephew instead. All Venture had to do was withdraw a few of his soldiers from the rooftop around young Elend’s room to let in the Elariel assassins. And, since the assassination will occur during one of Elend’s little philosophy meetings, Lord Venture will be able to rid himself of a Hasting and a Lekal too!” Vin spun.  I have to do something! “Of course,” Kliss said with a chuckle, standing up. “Lord Venture is in for a surprise himself. I’ve heard that your Elend has some very . . . choice books in his possession. Young Venture should be much more careful about the things he tells his women, I think.'

and she asks for money to keep quiet about the Allomancy. Maybe it's worded differently in your translation, but in the one I have, The scene goes:

Spoiler

'Vin turned back to the smiling Kliss. The woman winked at her. “I’ll keep your Allomancy a secret, child. Just make certain I get payment by tomorrow afternoon. A lady must buy food—and as you can see, I need a lot of it."'

57 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's Cosmere forum.

Facepalm moment. I thought we were still in the Mistborn forum.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

She didn't stop feeling it, she realized that she was always living with that feeling and this is nothing new to her, she could deal with it, but was still feeling it.

Exactly, she didn't stop feeling it. Just because she'd already dealt with the feelings didn't mean they evaporated like they did for Wax. They only stopped once she moved out of the area of effect of the Rioting.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Feeling of disturbance doesn't make you realize that you don't feel emotions at all, like Wax in TLM. 

He knew that he was being Soothed, he walked into a Soothing station knowingly. That didn't stop the effect from taking.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

I admit, Wax burning copper there is a valid explanation, but I believe that was Wax realizing that he didn't fear death anymore, because he faced it already. It's just more impactful. Who else can tell that he died, came back and realized he doesn't fear death anymore?

True, but again, realizing that you're being Rioted or accepting/moving past the feeling doesn't stop the effect from taking place as it does here.

And again, Armal was able to create feelings of shame in both Entrone and Marasi, even though neither of them was explicitly feeling shame at that moment. Entrone calls himself a god, and Marasi is later shown to have already accepted all her shame. You could argue that they could have been, but it's not explicit in the text. 

Also, your multiplication analogy doesn't fit. You said its like multiplication, 0 times something is still zero, except if that was the case, Vin's Duralumin pull in the Fadrex caves still shouldn't have produced an effect.

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

She laughs afterward too, before Vin says anything about saving Elend:

Yes, but she didn't laugh at Vin but at the idea of what would happen to the house of Venture after that.

4 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

and she asks for money to keep quiet about the Allomancy. Maybe it's worded differently in your translation, but in the one I have, The scene goes:

The same, but she asked for money earlier, and because she didn't say "more" one could argue that she didn't demand more money for the Allomacy secret. She just want the same amount of money for what she told about "Vin's uncle". 

Is this even related to what we're talking about anymore? I don't see a point with Kliss.

8 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Exactly, she didn't stop feeling it. Just because she'd already dealt with the feelings didn't mean they evaporated like they did for Wax. They only stopped once she moved out of the area of effect of the Rioting.

That's right, she had the feeling of shame to begin with, Wax didn't fear death anymore, thus there is no emotion to be rioted.

9 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

He knew that he was being Soothed, he walked into a Soothing station knowingly. That didn't stop the effect from taking.

What are you talking about? It doesn't matter that you know you're being smoothed/rioted. This doesn't make you immune to emotional Allomancy. 

15 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

True, but again, realizing that you're being Rioted or accepting/moving past the feeling doesn't stop the effect from taking place as it does here.

It's not about realization that you're being rioted, it's about realization that you don't feel that feeling at all - that's what happened to Wax. He faced death already, in that moment he just realized that he didn't need to fear it anymore, and the fear went away. Only after that, he realized that he was exposed to emotional Allomancy. Not before. It's about feelings. 

18 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

And again, Armal was able to create feelings of shame in both Entrone and Marasi, even though neither of them was explicitly feeling shame at that moment.

Marasi literally stated that she was feeling that her entire life "She’d lived with some of these fears for her entire life.". It's not only shame, it's also the feeling of worthlessness etc. Who knows what Entrone was feeling? Maybe he was ashamed that he failed Autonomy, that she didn't choose his plan, that she chose Telsin to be her Avatar, not him, that he failed her? You can't say that he didn't feel it if there is no PoV of his. 

23 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Also, your multiplication analogy doesn't fit. You said its like multiplication, 0 times something is still zero, except if that was the case, Vin's Duralumin pull in the Fadrex caves still shouldn't have produced an effect.

Kind of. But 0.001 x 3 gives 0.003, however times 1000000 gives 1000. Maybe they were a bit irritated, not enough for rioting? Or 0 times infinity is undefined.