Savants: Advantages, Disadvantages, and Ease of Acquisition

[Walter The Moral]

22 hours ago, Jn819 said:

I think it's implied that Breeze is a savant (and Allrianne might be too, but it doesn't seem like it as much).

He's proabably something like a mini-savant. We know from TLR that a zinc or brass savant can pierce copperclouds with their rioting or soothing, but Breeze can't. I wonder if there are levels to savanthood?

[alder24]

22 hours ago, Jn819 said:

I think it's implied that Breeze is a savant (and Allrianne might be too, but it doesn't seem like it as much). So yes, subtlety and strength, including greater numbers of people. And also yes, extraordinarily manipulative and a bit numb themselves. The scene in HoA where he chats with Clubs certainly makes it seem like the way he burns brass puts him in a bit of an obsessive, hyper-focused state that it's a relief to let go of, though that might just be him.

12 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

He's proabably something like a mini-savant. We know from TLR that a zinc or brass savant can pierce copperclouds with their rioting or soothing, but Breeze can't. I wonder if there are levels to savanthood?

I don't think Breeze is a savant yet. He is on his way to it, his soul is warping, but he isn't a savant yet, he is just more skillful than others. But I do like the idea of savanthood effects of brass/zinc proposed here.

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

(note by me: Wax isn't a savant anymore https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e8115)

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, it seems likely that Breeze is like Kelsier or post-retcon Wax with steel or TLM-era Wayne with bendalloy: his soul is changing so that he can get more out of the metal, but it's not (yet) full-on savantism. Breeze is considered to be unusually capable, but he can't pierce copperclouds.

Breeze could be a savant though: we know bronze and copper savantisms are subtle, maybe all the mental metals are. TLR was almost surely a brass savant, even post-retcon, so its effects aren't super obvious (unless it makes you overconfident or bored!).

But still, his lack of coppercloud piercing argues against it. I think piercing copperclouds requires a significant strength difference, though. There's some natural variation in strength, but yet it's considered totally impossible.

I wonder if savantism is a sliding scale anyway... Is it like a threshold that you suddenly cross - like Snapping - and now you get extra power but negative side effects, or do both the positive and negative effects slowly increase from unnoticeable to barely noticeable to significant? If so, maybe Breeze is a weak savant but not to coppercloud-piercing point yet.

Edited May 24, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Jn819]

2 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

He's proabably something like a mini-savant. We know from TLR that a zinc or brass savant can pierce copperclouds with their rioting or soothing, but Breeze can't. I wonder if there are levels to savanthood?

Are we really sure he can't, or does he just not try because he doesn't expect it to work? Clubs is the only Coppercloud he interacts with regularly, and he knows Clubs shouldn't be susceptible thanks to his copper. Plus, Clubs might be a Copper Savant; it is supposed to burn pretty slow and they did keep up a 24-hour Cloud at the hideout (though with the help of apprentices). I forget, is copper the specific metal that there's a quote about them becoming savants by accident, or was it bronze?

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if savantism is a sliding scale anyway... Is it like a threshold that you suddenly cross - like Snapping - and now you get extra power but negative side effects, or do both the positive and negative effects slowly increase from unnoticeable to barely noticeable to significant? If so, maybe Breeze is a weak savant but not to coppercloud-piercing point yet.

I think the WoB Alder just quoted makes it pretty clear that it's a sliding scale.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Jn819
additional reply

[alder24]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

But still, his lack of coppercloud piercing argues against it. I think piercing copperclouds requires a significant strength difference, though. There's some natural variation in strength, but yet it's considered totally impossible.

Or intent - Vin did it intentionally, Breeze had never tried and didn't know.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I wonder if savantism is a sliding scale anyway... Is it like a threshold that you suddenly cross - like Snapping - and now you get extra power but negative side effects, or do both the positive and negative effects slowly increase from unnoticeable to barely noticeable to significant? If so, maybe Breeze is a weak savant but not to coppercloud-piercing point yet.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Considering Soulcasters slowly turning into the material they Soulcast, it's likely a slider.

 

4 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

I forget, is copper the specific metal that there's a quote about them becoming savants by accident, or was it bronze?

It was said about bronze but it applies to both of them, HoA epigraphs ch 16:

Quote

In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long.

 

[Koloss17]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Or intent - Vin did it intentionally, Breeze had never tried and didn't know.

SA spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Considering Soulcasters slowly turning into the material they Soulcast, it's likely a slider.

 

It was said about bronze but it applies to both of them, HoA epigraphs ch 16:

 

Though we don’t really know how canon that is at the moment, as while the text certainly does say it, Brando seems to want to up the cost of savantism.

[cometaryorbit]

18 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Though we don’t really know how canon that is at the moment, as while the text certainly does say it, Brando seems to want to up the cost of savantism.

There's a 2021 (post-retcon) WoB saying this is still true of bronze and copper:

Quote

 

Kingsdaughter613

Hero of Ages, Harmony in the epigraphs says that brass and copper Allomancers can become savants and never even notice. I know that generally savantism is supposed to have really extreme effects, so how does that work that they do not notice?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most savanthoods have extreme effects, some of them it's just not as noticeable. It can warp your soul without you really even paying that much attention to it. I kind of have a push and pull on how debilitating it is in some ways versus others. In this case, those are two that you can become that it would not be very debilitating in your life.

Kingsdaughter613

What effects would that have for that?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

[Koloss17]

46 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

There's a 2021 (post-retcon) WoB saying this is still true of bronze and copper:

 

Good to know! It’s good to know that some things are still intact when it comes to savantism.