Savants: Advantages, Disadvantages, and Ease of Acquisition

[Koloss17]

Okay, so this will be a silly deep dive on all stuff savantism. I will be going through all 16 metals, listing the advantages, disadvantages, and ease of savantism. Feel free to add on to this list, as I am certain that I do not know all there is to know about savantism. I just want to get folks thinking.

Obviously each comes with a universal advantage and disadvantage, so I’ll get those out of the way. Of course it will be addictive, so you will feel weird when not burning it in some quantity. Additionally, you will be getting a lot more band for your buck in terms of efficiency using the metal.

with that out of the way, let’s get started!

 

 

Iron

Advantages: 

Much greater control over your pulls, with potential to pull things heavier than you or identify what metal you are pulling. Perhaps being able to manipulate invested metals in some capacity? Certainly an increase in pulling range (how far away you can sense the metal).

Disadvantages:

Honestly, past a reliance on that extra sense, I wouldn’t really know.

Ease of Acquisition:

This is fairly easy to get, but you probably won’t be getting it accidentally. There’s a few times where you would want to constantly burn iron, but the cost is rarely worth it for most.

 

Steel

In terms of general effect, everything will likely be the same for steel as it will be for iron. Increased adeptness, power, and range, with it being a rare occurrence to naturally manifest. If you folks think there would be a difference, let me know!

 

 

 

Tin

We saw the advantages and disadvantages pretty clearly with Spook. Quite powerful, with some major disadvantages. Probably wouldn’t recommend.

 

Pewter

This was touched on slightly on the books, but I’ll give a brief refresher. You get real strong, but your immunity to pain can lead you to not feel pain, making you die from wounds that you didn’t know existed. It’s not an advised one, but it is unfortunately quite easy to get. Strength is one hell of a drug.

 

Zinc

Advantages:

Standard rioting of extra people, likely with better extremes (rioting very subtly and outrageously noticeably). Can’t think of much else, but it sure would be interesting to see someone that constantly manipulates emotions

Disadvantages:

This would likely have to do with emotions, so either you become very picky about other’s emotions, and extraordinary manipulative, or you would be lacking in your own emotional capacity. It would certainly be quite the experience.

Ease of Acquisition:

I would think this would be relatively easy to get, as rioting is quite a useful trait.

 

Brass

I think soothing would have very similar effects to that of rioting when savanthood is achieved, with maybe minute differences. Let me know what you all think!

Copper

Advantages:

This is quite subtle, with likely an expanded field of use, as well as increased difficulty to pierce. I’m sure that if you tried, you could make your coppercloud larger or smaller. I don’t know how you would test for that, though.

Disadvantages:

Apparently, savantism is very subtle, and the disadvantages are slight.

Ease of Acquisition:

This is quite common, and I would even say that this is probably the easiest metal to become a savant in. 

 

Bronze

Advantages:

With savanthood for bronze, the advantages are useful, but slight. Increased range, increased strength. That’s pretty much it. You would probably be able to detect other non-allomantic forms of active investiture a bit easier, but even a non-savant can do that.

Disadvantages:

Again, very minimal disadvantages. 

Ease of Acquisition:

This is another of the really easy metals to achieve savanthood in. Easy to acquire the metal, has a long burn time, and has a lot of passive utility.

 

Aluminum

Advantages:

Apparently, you can heal your spiritual self this way. Past that, I don’t know.

Disadvantages:

You are probably now broke.

Ease of Acquisition:

This one is near impossible. The metal is expensive, useless to burn, and wipes your reserves as soon as you burn it.

 

Duralumin

Advantages:

Would there…be any advantages? Maybe burning it more efficiently?

Disadvantages:

You have wasted a lot more time and money than you probably should have.

Ease of Acquisition:

Not very easy. Theoretically possible, but why? What’s the value in doing so?

 

Gold

Advantages:

I’m sure there’s some advantages. Unfortunately, we know sparingly little about A-gold. You would probably be keenly aware of your past, as well as the consequences of your decisions. It would be really weird, though.

Disadvantages:

You would probably be heavily morphed by this. I’m not sure what exactly, but it would be quite the experience. You would be quite detached from the present, and likely warped in the past.

Ease of Acquisition:

Gold is presumably still rare, if not seen as the currency that we on Earth have decided it would be. You could theoretically become a gold savant, but the circumstances that would allow that would be very, very odd.

 

Electrum

Advantages:

This could actually be quite useful. You would be very, very hard to kill, and you would have a lot of potential. The electrum shadows would likely extend further than normal, but I don’t really know how far you could stretch it.

Disadvantages:

This would likely be quite warping as well. Constantly knowing what you are about to do will morph you, and instead of dwelling in the past, you would likely dwell too much in the future. Maybe you would have quite a bit of indecision. I don’t know, but it would certainly be interesting.

Ease of Acquisition:

Given how uncommon the metal is, this would be quite hard, but very doable. 

 

Cadmium

Advantages:

Manipulate bubble size, speed, and allow it to anchor to oneself. Pretty nice stuff.

Disadvantages:

This is a tad less clear, but my guess is that due to massive time dilation, they would feel quite disconnected from others.

Ease of Acquisition:

This one is very hard, but not impossible. It would require quite a lot of continuous punting, which would be both expensive and a bit boring.

 

Bendalloy

Pretty much the same as cadmium. I’m sure there’s a difference, but it would be slight.

 

 

Chromium

Advantages:

I don’t really know about this one, but perhaps it would allow leeching at range? It’s a smidge unclear.

Disadvantages:

I also don’t know about this. Any idea what would work?

Ease of Acquisition:

Savanthood seems quite possible, just not particularly likely to encounter. A middle of the road metal on ease of acquisition.

 

Nicrosil

This seems to be the same as Chromium in terms of pretty much everything.

 

 

And that’s what I have so far! If there’s stuff you think should be added, please let me know! There are a whole bunch of places that I’m not sure of, or even have no clue about.

[HSuperLee]

I think that what we've seen of tin savantism has biased us towards the idea of losing a sense. I also think we need to acknowledge that we really don't fully understand what allomancy is or what it does. Take a-iron and a-steel, we say that they let you see the presence of and remotely affect metals, but that's not quite it. Kel describes what we've named "steelsight" as the sight of gods, and Wax believed while using the Bands of Mourning that he could use steelsight to see people's souls. Iron and steel may perhaps be better described as having the allomantic effect of allowing the physical portion of your soul to Connect with and influence the physical parts of other souls, the most obvious and common application being through metal, as metal seems to be the physical manifestation of certain spiritual ideals. But now I risk straying into wider Cosmere territory. My point is this, iron and steel savantism may not have much to do with steelsight or your ability to push and pull metals, but may have a deeper effect on the very soul of the savant.

[Koloss17]

5 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

iron and steel savantism may not have much to do with steelsight or your ability to push and pull metals, but may have a deeper effect on the very soul of the savant.

What would you suggest? I think you’re on to something, but I don’t quite know what. I made this post mostly to seek a bit more theories on allomantic savants, without just going through and making 16 separate posts about it.

[cobaltking360]

I am not remembering right now but, I believe that aluminum savantism clears all metals or potential investiture. So I believe that chromium savantism is like this but external. 

[Walter The Moral]

On 3/15/2023 at 7:58 PM, Koloss17 said:

Brass

I think soothing would have very similar effects to that of rioting when savanthood is achieved, with maybe minute differences. Let me know what you all think!

I'm pretty sure Bronze savants would be able to pierce copper clouds, at least if the Smoker is weak enough. Same with Zinc and Bronze, as we see with TLR.

I would love to see you do this with other Invested Arts! Leave it to Koloss17 to do the hard work with lists (I love your Daily Random Twinborn thread).

[Koloss17]

47 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

I'm pretty sure Bronze savants would be able to pierce copper clouds, at least if the Smoker is weak enough. Same with Zinc and Bronze, as we see with TLR.

I would love to see you do this with other Invested Arts! Leave it to Koloss17 to do the hard work with lists (I love your Daily Random Twinborn thread).

You’re completely right about that point! Something I hadn’t really thought of, but that is certainly true.

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, Walter The Moral said:

I'm pretty sure Bronze savants would be able to pierce copper clouds, at least if the Smoker is weak enough. Same with Zinc and Bronze, as we see with TLR.

I would love to see you do this with other Invested Arts! Leave it to Koloss17 to do the hard work with lists (I love your Daily Random Twinborn thread).

4 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

You’re completely right about that point! Something I hadn’t really thought of, but that is certainly true.

They would be able to do that:

Spoiler

Questioner

There is quantitative difference in Allomancy (e.g. Elend is stronger than Vin), there is skill difference (e.g. Breeze is better than Vin with zinc), but is there a qualitative difference too?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s the scale of what we call savant. Wax can do more with less. It’s not just skill, the burning for long, using for so long, will actually adapt your soul to the power.

Questioner

So can bronze savants pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a bronze savant should be able to pierce copperclouds. It depends on the strengths of the coppercloud and the strength of the savant, but yes.

Questioner

So Elend could theoretically learn to pierce copperclouds?

Brandon Sanderson

Weaker ones, yeah, totally. He can learn how to do it by brute force.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

[cometaryorbit]

It's hard to know what's going on with savantism since there may be some level of soft retcon. It looks like bronze/copper savantism being subtle is still canon:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14917

but most are relatively extreme.

 Wax was intended to be a savant of the A-steel/F-iron resonance, but that may not be the case in current canon, and even if so might not be identical to plain A-steel savantism.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1563

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/309/#e8115

I agree that a common disadvantage of all savantism - besides the specific effects - is a kind of addiction to the metal (or whatever power is being used). Stormlight Archive:

Spoiler

Soulcaster savants work very differently (turning into their element, vs Spook having less senses when not using tin) but even there the addictive aspect is present, so that's probably universal to all forms of savantism.

It's also worth noting that though regular Feruchemy doesn't really produce savants, Compounding does, and both TLR and Miles were Compounding savants:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13393
 

[Koloss17]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I agree that a common disadvantage of all savantism - besides the specific effects - is a kind of addiction to the metal (or whatever power is being used). Stormlight Archive:

  Reveal hidden contents

Soulcaster savants work very differently (turning into their element, vs Spook having less senses when not using tin) but even there the addictive aspect is present, so that's probably universal to all forms of savantism.

It's also worth noting that though regular Feruchemy doesn't really produce savants, Compounding does, and both TLR and Miles were Compounding savants:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13393
 

This is certainly true, and I have assumed that you could certainly gain Feruchemantic savantism through reverse compounding (in which feruchemy is powering allomancy). I even made a whole other thread talking about which Twinborn combos would allow that!

 

[cometaryorbit]

More specific thoughts:

I think the primary benefit of Iron/Steel savantism, besides the general efficiency benefit, would be extreme precision and control. Kelsier wasn't a savant, but the ability to spin metal bars (push on parts of an object, not the whole) is maybe a step in that direction.

So very refined versions of that. Also, moving your center of Pushing or Pulling around your body rather than being limited to your center of mass/Cognitive center of self. Marsh can do that, so a steel savant probably could (maybe Marsh is a savant, he's had centuries to practice*).

There might be additional disadvantages, but I feel like an iron or steel savant would be disoriented when not burning their metal - without being able to see the lines, their spatial awareness might be messed up.

--

Pewter: being harder to kill from some other source would really help in surviving the process. The only Pewter savant we've actually seen, Tarson in AoL, was koloss-blooded: that probably helped. An A-pewter/F-gold Twinborn would make a very scary Pewter savant.

--

I wonder if the subtle disadvantage of copper savantism is that your mind is less protected when not burning? Since you've become dependent on it?

I don't know what the parallel to that for bronze would be. Maybe a lack of "instinct" or perceptiveness or something? Or just a disorientation as you lose a sense you've become used to?

-

I don't think aluminum and duralumin savants are possible in practice, but in theory, I don't think aluminum heals your spiritual self so much as it rejects foreign Investiture. The WoB also says that a theoretical aluminum savant could maybe cleanse their body - I'd think that would mean burning away poisons and such.

-

I think there's probably never been a savant of the external temporal metals; Harmony says Wayne was the best ever at Bendalloy, and Cadmium is generally considered kind of useless - they're very expensive metals in Era 2, also. But if they existed, I think it'd be the kind of precise time bubble manipulation we see from TLM Wayne at a much higher level (plus the general efficiency benefit, of course).

-

The other metals ... I'll need to think about those.

*That's actually an interesting question - are the spiritweb changes from savantism compatible with the ones to become an Inquisitor?

Edited May 14, 2023 by cometaryorbit

[Spearguy]

On 3/15/2023 at 10:58 AM, Koloss17 said:

Bronze

Advantages:

With savanthood for bronze, the advantages are useful, but slight. Increased range, increased strength. That’s pretty much it. You would probably be able to detect other non-allomantic forms of active investiture a bit easier, but even a non-savant can do that.

Disadvantages:

Again, very minimal disadvantages. 

Ease of Acquisition:

This is another of the really easy metals to achieve savanthood in. Easy to acquire the metal, has a long burn time, and has a lot of passive utility.

Bronze savantisim may make it impossible for someone to to naturally be able to sense others similarly to a Drab, and in turn when burning bronze you could gain something similar to the Fourth heightings as Life sens and bronze allomancy are quite similar.

[Walter The Moral]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think there's probably never been a savant of the external temporal metals; Harmony says Wayne was the best ever at Bendalloy, and Cadmium is generally considered kind of useless - they're very expensive metals in Era 2, also. But if they existed, I think it'd be the kind of precise time bubble manipulation we see from TLM Wayne at a much higher level (plus the general efficiency benefit, of course).

Yeah, Wayne is definitely the closest thing to a Bendalloy Savant we've seen, since he could control the size of his speed bubbles. But, we know from this WOB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/33/#e2761) that an actual savant would be able to center their speed bubble around themselves, which could be very powerful. I wonder what the disadvantages would be for a Bendalloy Savant. Maybe they get so used to taking their time that when they're out of the bubble they do things much more slowly?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Spearguy said:

Bronze savantisim may make it impossible for someone to to naturally be able to sense others similarly to a Drab, and in turn when burning bronze you could gain something similar to the Fourth heightings as Life sens and bronze allomancy are quite similar.

Bronze detect kinetic investiture, Life sense detect innate investiture. That's not the same thing and I doubt it will be with savantism. Bronze savant would be able to pierce copperclouds (per WoB in one of my posts above) and very likely would be better at detecting different types of kinetic investiture, even the most subtle ones.

5 hours ago, Walter The Moral said:

I wonder what the disadvantages would be for a Bendalloy Savant. Maybe they get so used to taking their time that when they're out of the bubble they do things much more slowly?

I think a bendalloy savant's internal clock would be shifted to the time which it passes inside the bubble, even if not in the bubble. It wouldn't make him slower, but it would make him disoriented and not able to tell the time and the passage of time outside the bubble. But it's really hard to say what disadvantages of savants would be, Spook senses without tin were almost not "working" for him, and that's the only example we have.

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

An interesting drawback for Pewter Savantism: We know from Spook that Pewter is a Pushing metal, and it kinda dulls your senses, in that it makes you more resistant to pain and things like sleep deprivation. Could a Pewter Savant, when not Burning Pewter, feel overly sensitive and become susceptible to overstimulation? It would make a fun parallel to Tin Savantism, where you feel completely numb when not Burning.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

An interesting drawback for Pewter Savantism: We know from Spook that Pewter is a Pushing metal, and it kinda dulls your senses, in that it makes you more resistant to pain and things like sleep deprivation. Could a Pewter Savant, when not Burning Pewter, feel overly sensitive and become susceptible to overstimulation? It would make a fun parallel to Tin Savantism, where you feel completely numb when not Burning.

Oh yeah, good one. I can fully see this one happening. I wouldn't call it a "fun" parallel

Now if that's the case, what would happen if you're both tin and pewter savant? Would both of those negative effects negate each other when nothing is burned, and you'll be left with regular human sensitivity (edit: ONLY senses of touch, pain and heat would be negated, other tin savant negatives, like sight or hearing, and pewter savant negatives would still affect them)?

Edited May 16, 2023 by alder24

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

Just now, alder24 said:

Oh yeah, good one. I can fully see this one happening. I wouldn't call it a "fun" parallel

Now if that's the case, what would happen if you're both tin and pewter savant? Would both of those negative effects negate each other when nothing is burned, and you'll be left with regular human sensitivity?

I don't think it would totally negate each other, since Pewter can't give you too much extra sensitivity lest you start acting like a Tin Misting, but it could totally help lessen the effects of the numbness, just not completely remove it. Pewter Savantism could also result in something like increased sensitivity to drowsiness, so when you get tired you may immediately start getting horrific brain fog and dizziness, which could make you pass out, an inversion of how Pewter lets you ignore fatigue and sleepiness

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

I don't think it would totally negate each other, since Pewter can't give you too much extra sensitivity lest you start acting like a Tin Misting, but it could totally help lessen the effects of the numbness, just not completely remove it. Pewter Savantism could also result in something like increased sensitivity to drowsiness, so when you get tired you may immediately start getting horrific brain fog and dizziness, which could make you pass out, an inversion of how Pewter lets you ignore fatigue and sleepiness

Yes, I was talking only about numbness, sensitivity to touch and pain and whatever senses both pewter and tin enhance together - no stamina boost etc.

I agree with fatigue. But on the other hand we have Tarson, who was a pewter savant and didn't seem to have those nasty effects (but we don't know if he was burning pewter constantly, nor we had his PoV).

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I was talking only about numbness, sensitivity to touch and pain and whatever senses both pewter and tin enhance together - no stamina boost etc.

I got that, I just meant that Pewter Savantism side effects  can't be too strong, at least not strong enough to completely counteract the Tin numbness, since that would make them act like Tin Mistings whenever they're not Burning Pewter (although in hindsight that's irrelevant since they would already have to be burning Tin to get the Tineye-like effects, but that would mean they would have the Tin Savant levels of senses already, making the Pewter side effects redundant)

Quote

I agree with fatigue. But on the other hand we have Tarson, who was a pewter savant and didn't seem to have those nasty effects (but we don't know if he was burning pewter constantly, nor we had his PoV).

Well, we only ever see Tarson in situations where he would, as a thief and bandit, be Burning Pewter already, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume he's always at least lightly Burning Pewter when we see him.

How much would being Koloss-Blooded have an effect on his Savantism?

Edited May 16, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[therunner]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Now if that's the case, what would happen if you're both tin and pewter savant? Would both of those negative effects negate each other when nothing is burned, and you'll be left with regular human sensitivity?

I would assume that in some places they would counteract each other, but pewter seems to dull only pain basically, maybe heat/touch sensitivity as well.
So sight, hearing, taste, would remain affected. You would basically stilll get someone who is nearly blind, deaf but without being able to withstand pain/fire like Spook did

Also, I would wager that Pewter savantism could also make you physically weaker, since the soul is used to being enhanced magically. So when not burning Pewter, you would suddenly be perhaps only 50% as strong as your bulk would suggest.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

How much would being Koloss-Blooded have an effect on his Savantism?

Apparently a bit, it made him survive that long to become a Savant. Plus he was stronger and tougher as Koloss-Blooded. We know nothing more.

Spoiler

Questioner 1

Alloy of Law. We've got koloss-born guys. What's their origin?

Brandon Sanderson

So... Currently in Mistborn-- And I delve into this a lot more in the later books, but, you know, it's not a big spoiler so I can tell you. Um... Koloss have become... They can breed, but when some-- when a child is born to them it is born as a koloss-blood. It is not born the full thing, right? Grows up normally, and at maturity, at their right of passing, they can choose to ma-- take the step, gain-- get the spikes, and turn into actual, true koloss. Or if they don't, they have to leave the tribe and go... You know.

Questioner 1

But they're more, like, human size? Like, human looking?

Brandon Sanderson

They're human size, human-- I mean, they've got some residual effects. They're a little bit tougher. But yeah. General, they can be human. And so what you're seeing in Tarson is some-- one of those who actually came and-- He's the son of a full koloss-blood and a human Allomancer, which makes an Allomancer koloss-blood.

Questioner 1

Okay. So that's what I thought. A little human interbreeding. *unintelligible* weird.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, um, and a human could, if they wanted to, go convince the koloss to accept them, join the tribe, and get spiked. So yeah...

Questioner 2

It makes their skin saggy, and they start growing...?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It makes their skin saggy, and start growing, and start ripping, and all that sort of stuff.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

7 minutes ago, therunner said:

I would assume that in some places they would counteract each other, but pewter seems to dull only pain basically, maybe heat/touch sensitivity as well.
So sight, hearing, taste, would remain affected. You would basically stilll get someone who is nearly blind, deaf but without being able to withstand pain/fire like Spook did

Yes, that's what I meant. For the second time. I really need to edit that post  Good point about heat. 

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

Also, I would wager that Pewter savantism could also make you physically weaker, since the soul is used to being enhanced magically. So when not burning Pewter, you would suddenly be perhaps only 50% as strong as your bulk would suggest.

I don't know about this one. Maybe not physically weaker, but they would get tired faster, and generally feel weaker, rather than be weaker. But it is a possibility worthy of consideration.

[therunner]

36 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't know about this one. Maybe not physically weaker, but they would get tired faster, and generally feel weaker, rather than be weaker. But it is a possibility worthy of consideration.

It does feel like something that would be quite noticable.
On the other hand, primary effect of Tin is to improve sense, and due to savantism you must burn Tin to just function as regular human.

Similarly, primary effect of Pewter is improved strength, and other assorted physical improvements which are however more minor. So I would expect that Pewter savant has to burn Pewter at least on low burn just to be at baseline human level. Hence they would be weaker, tire more easily, would be clumsier and more sensitive, when not burning Pewter.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah, Tarson was probably burning pewter 24/7 essentially. It's a lot faster burning than tin, so that can be tricky... which is probably a big part of why pewter savants or those approaching savantism usually die.

[Jn819]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, Koloss17 said:

Zinc

Advantages:

Standard rioting of extra people, likely with better extremes (rioting very subtly and outrageously noticeably). Can’t think of much else, but it sure would be interesting to see someone that constantly manipulates emotions

Disadvantages:

This would likely have to do with emotions, so either you become very picky about other’s emotions, and extraordinary manipulative, or you would be lacking in your own emotional capacity. It would certainly be quite the experience.

Ease of Acquisition:

I would think this would be relatively easy to get, as rioting is quite a useful trait.

 

Brass

I think soothing would have very similar effects to that of rioting when savanthood is achieved, with maybe minute differences. Let me know what you all think!

I think it's implied that Breeze is a savant (and Allrianne might be too, but it doesn't seem like it as much). So yes, subtlety and strength, including greater numbers of people. And also yes, extraordinarily manipulative and a bit numb themselves. The scene in HoA where he chats with Clubs certainly makes it seem like the way he burns brass puts him in a bit of an obsessive, hyper-focused state that it's a relief to let go of, though that might just be him.

[Koloss17]

5 minutes ago, Jn819 said:

I think it's implied that Breeze is a savant (and Allrianne might be too, but it doesn't seem like it as much). So yes, subtlety and strength, including greater numbers of people. And also yes, extraordinarily manipulative and a bit numb themselves. The scene in HoA where he chats with Clubs certainly makes it seem like the way he burns brass puts him in a bit of an obsessive, hyper-focused state that it's a relief to let go of, though that might just be him.

Huh. I don’t think I really put that together, but it sure does make sense. Nice catch!

[Jn819]

5 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Huh. I don’t think I really put that together, but it sure does make sense. Nice catch!

Thanks!