the Lost metal kandra

[Blue-phoenix186]

So in the lost metal They figured out how to make spikes without killing someone so does that mean? They can make new blessings without killing people and re-populate the kandra I still don’t really understand Hemalurgy is that possible? Are there still? Mistwraiths in era 2 

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Blue-phoenix186 said:

So in the lost metal They figured out how to make spikes without killing someone so does that mean? They can make new blessings without killing people and re-populate the kandra I still don’t really understand Hemalurgy is that possible? Are there still? Mistwraiths in era 2 

What Set did was use spike to steal the extra Preservation's fragment that every person has in their soul without killing that person. However they didn't figure out the way to turn it into Metalborn power. This spike contains only raw investiture, not an attribute (like strength, attributes are likely needed for Blessings) nor powers (like Feruchemy or Allomancy), just raw power that can be turned into attribute/powers, but they don't know how to do this yet. So it is a step in the direction you're talking about but more is needed still. 

Then there is another problem. By taking away that extra Preservation's fragment, people are severely damaged, and their health is drastically diminished. Hemalurgy always hurts. So while they are still alive, their soul has now a hole, and they are less invested which gives them problems with health and mental health. That's why I don't think Harmony would still allow to make new spikes even with this method, as it hurts people and leaves them scared.

[kenod]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Then there is another problem. By taking away that extra Preservation's fragment, people are severely damaged, and their health is drastically diminished. Hemalurgy always hurts. So while they are still alive, their soul has now a hole, and they are less invested which gives them problems with health and mental health. That's why I don't think Harmony would still allow to make new spikes even with this method, as it hurts people and leaves them scared.

To be fair, this could probably be fixed with gold medallions. That said, having part of your soul stolen probably still hurts a ton, and will probably result in some serious mental trauma even if the soul is fixed.

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, kenod said:

To be fair, this could probably be fixed with gold medallions. That said, having part of your soul stolen probably still hurts a ton, and will probably result in some serious mental trauma even if the soul is fixed.

Possibly, but likely compounding levels of health would be needed, or a very big goldmind. You are not just healing the soul, you are replacing a stolen part of your soul with a path of investiture, so you need to give as much as it was taken from you, and it would still leave a scar on your soul.

[Trusk'our]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Possibly, but likely compounding levels of health would be needed, or a very big goldmind. You are not just healing the soul, you are replacing a stolen part of your soul with a path of investiture, so you need to give as much as it was taken from you, and it would still leave a scar on your soul.

 

4 hours ago, kenod said:

To be fair, this could probably be fixed with gold medallions. That said, having part of your soul stolen probably still hurts a ton, and will probably result in some serious mental trauma even if the soul is fixed.

I don't know if we're supposed to have SA stuff here, so spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

 

I don't know that it would be too bad if you replaced a lost part of your Spiritweb. After all, Kaladin does this and suffers nothing worse than a few aches for a couple hours.

I'm also curious to know just how much actual Investiture would be necessary to repair a regular human's Spiritweb, since humans aren't considered to be terribly Invested. Though I suppose in the aforementioned senario Kaladin used most of his remaining Stormlight to heal. 

Now I guess we just need to know how much Investiture that was and how much a Goldmind contains, which will be a while. Super duper.

 

 

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't know if we're supposed to have SA stuff here, so spoilers ahead.

  Hide c

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

The difference is, shardblade cuts are very narrow, what healing does is just reconnects cut off sections of your soul back to you. It just heals a blade wide cut. But Kaladin still has to provide a lot of investiture to heal that cut. Spike rips a portion of your soul. How big? Hard to say, it depends on the size of the spike. But you would need to provide a bit more investiture to heal that. And even if healed - it leaves scar behind, which might or might not affect a person.

You would probably need to provide more investiture that it was cut with a shardblade or spiked out, not the amount for a patch (which is the amount missing in your soul), but more to do the work of healing and connecting that patch to your soul. 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

 

[Trusk'our]

13 minutes ago, alder24 said:

SA spoilers:

  Hide contents

The difference is, shardblade cuts are very narrow, what healing does is just reconnects cut off sections of your soul back to you. It just heals a blade wide cut. But Kaladin still has to provide a lot of investiture to heal that cut. Spike rips a portion of your soul. How big? Hard to say, it depends on the size of the spike. But you would need to provide a bit more investiture to heal that. And even if healed - it leaves scar behind, which might or might not affect a person.

You would probably need to provide more investiture that it was cut with a shardblade or spiked out, not the amount for a patch (which is the amount missing in your soul), but more to do the work of healing and connecting that patch to your soul. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the Spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with Investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the Investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do-- to recreate that with um... See I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that's okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Bystander

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb--

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like-- It is not your original soul.

Bystander

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

*ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now* But that is what happens with most forms of Investiture in the first place.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

 

Even more SA spoilers.

Spoiler

I always imagined that it didn't matter whether the cut was narrow; it still severs a chunk of the Spiritweb (hence the reason organs die when pierced and entire limbs die), while Hemalurgy was like surgically removing a functional body part, and therefore didn't do as much damage.

 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Even more SA spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

I always imagined that it didn't matter whether the cut was narrow; it still severs a chunk of the Spiritweb (hence the reason organs die when pierced and entire limbs die), while Hemalurgy was like surgically removing a functional body part, and therefore didn't do as much damage.

 

SA, sorry, last time

Spoiler

Well, limbs don't really die physically. The cut off part of the soul is still there, you just need to reconnect it. It doesn't matter that the cut is narrow for a limb to go "dead", but for healing it does, as it determines the amount of investiture needed.

Spoiler

Excelsius

What's the biological reaction of a limb cut by a Shardblade, because they don't start to rot after being cut?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah they don't start to rot, so the bloodflow is still happening. The limb is still attached, it's not going to rot off, but the soul is dead. This is a thing that can happen in the cosmere that can't happen here. Because you have Spiritual, [Cognitive], and Physical DNA. Your soul's been severed in that part, and it just flops around. You can't feel it, you can't control it. It's something that, again, couldn't happen here.

Bonn Signing (May 15, 2019)

 

 

[HSuperLee]

Getting away from SA spoilers, alder is correct, you'd need a way to "tune" the directionless Preservation within the spike so that it provides a human attribute and can act as a blessing. I personally think this may be able to be done kind of like making a magnet, where you align the atoms in a nonmagnetic material like iron by rubbing a magnet against it. Though even with magnets, this is temporary, and it requires some kind of change in the substance to make it permanent. If I had to guess, I'd say you might be able to make a blessing by taking a blank spike and having a feruchemist with blanked Identity store a massive amount of the attribute you want in the spike for a short time. This wouldn't be a perfect solution due to metallic properties. It might work with a tin or zinc spike to make blessings of awareness or stability, it might even work with a copper spike to make blessings of presence, but I doubt it would work with an iron spike to make a blessing of potency, as f-iron stores weight whereas h-iron steals strength. I'm sure there's another way to charge a blank spike, but I have no idea what it would be.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Getting away from SA spoilers, alder is correct, you'd need a way to "tune" the directionless Preservation within the spike so that it provides a human attribute and can act as a blessing. I personally think this may be able to be done kind of like making a magnet, where you align the atoms in a nonmagnetic material like iron by rubbing a magnet against it. Though even with magnets, this is temporary, and it requires some kind of change in the substance to make it permanent. If I had to guess, I'd say you might be able to make a blessing by taking a blank spike and having a feruchemist with blanked Identity store a massive amount of the attribute you want in the spike for a short time. This wouldn't be a perfect solution due to metallic properties. It might work with a tin or zinc spike to make blessings of awareness or stability, it might even work with a copper spike to make blessings of presence, but I doubt it would work with an iron spike to make a blessing of potency, as f-iron stores weight whereas h-iron steals strength. I'm sure there's another way to charge a blank spike, but I have no idea what it would be.

Interesting comparison. I think it can be tuned up by making a spike containing a tiny bit of power/attribute you want it to turn into. You can split spikes into multiple ones, each one of them would contain a splintered charge. So if you take an already existing Blessing, split it into dozens of tiny spikes, and then each of those tiny spikes can be melted and combined with one spike for each that contains raw investiture. Now in one spike you have a stolen power/attribute you want that spike to have, and raw investiture that has to tune up to that attribute/power. But there is still a problem of identity. Not only that attribute/power has different identity, but possibly raw investiture is taken from dozens of different people (spiking one person out of raw investiture makes a spike only 5% Invested), so that investiture is split into dozens of separate parts, each with different identity. So now you have to find a way to get rid of that identity problem fully. With raw investiture, you can give them aluminum medallions and force them to store in it, so they would be with no identity. With attributes/powers, you can also do similar, make them store identity, before spiking them. But with already existing spikes, like Blessings, Koloss spikes or even Inquisitors spikes, you can't do that, as those already have identity in them. But it is likely that if you make raw investiture with no identity, it can still tune up with attributes/powers that have identity.

And looking at TLM chapter when they are talking about it I find this:

Quote

“Can you make me Allomancers?” he demanded. “Now. Today. To show Autonomy.”

“No,” Labcoat admitted. “We think we need to code this in some way to give a specific Metallic Art blessing. We’re working on that. We’ve had some few gain a power for a short time using one of these spikes, but it gives out soon after.”

They already managed to do it, but just for a short time. That's interesting.