Trell Religion *SPOILERS*

[ReaderAt2046]

The unknown metals disconcert me. I thought, in my initial reading of Alloy, that chromium and nicrosil haven't been discovered yet. You'd think those types of Mistings would be talked about a lot, but they weren't. And the Ars Arcanum makes it pretty clear that they have been discovered. So, I have no idea what to think about the unknown metals, except that I'm kind of scared by them.

I think the author knows about them, but nobody else does.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

It seems to be a touch unclear.

"Shadows" of religions, eh? Insofar as that's understandable at all, it seems to make sense - for religions and other things, we'll see similarities (the author revisiting certain ideas), and it works in-setting (for mysterious reasons). Good to know.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Arcanist Lupus]

Certainly Miles's last rantings reminded me a lot of epigraphs of WoK.

[Vortaan]

I didn't see them as rantings, really, but something that Miles knew that we have yet to find out. I find the "breed an army of Mistings" idea that Wax hits upon a little unwieldy. Let's look at the 4 (6 if you count the two they didn't get) women that were kidnapped by the Vanishers. Assume each woman is made to give birth as many times as possible. Most women seem to be taken at an older age than you would ideally start breeding for this kind of project at. At most you are going to get 100-125 children. Assume all are Mistings... 125 Mistings isn't a huge number. Particularly when you add in Gnats, Smokers and Seekers. It's honestly an awful awful plan.

So what is the Set doing with these women? Well, I have to look at their one common thread: Spook. And what is the one thing Spook had that no one else in the Mistborn series did? Sazed's book. What if the bloodlines they are hunting down contain clues, somewhere, to the knowledge of Hemalurgy? If so, an army of Mistings becomes much more feasible... and dangerous. Instead of risking getting some fairly useless Allomancers, you can get powerful Allomantic abilities into your well trained army. I'm more inclined to think this may be the case because of Marsh's involvement. A plan to breed Mistings is honestly a bit small potatoes for Marsh... but the possibility of Hemalurgy being reborn is a very real threat to the world.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

A plan to breed Mistings is honestly a bit small potatoes for Marsh... but the possibility of Hemalurgy being reborn is a very real threat to the world.

Hey, now. He's 475 years old, he needs a few hobbies.

I like to assume that he takes cues from Ben Grimm, and hangs out with blond artists. And, sometimes, Soothes the heck out of some old lady's Suspicion, then plays cribbage and crochets with her. He also writes scathing letters to the editors of random newspapers, like an immortal grim reaper Ben Franklin.

Still, every now and again, he has to unearth a conspiracy or defeat an army, to remind himself of the glory days.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

P.S. But, yes, it would be a little anticlimactic if Wax's original theory were totally correct. I had considered that maybe the Set know about the Kandra, and are trying to force them to show themselves, so they can capture one.

[Tulir]

So I know this thread has kind of gone away from what I am about to say, but when I read about the "new metals", I immediatly thought about atium and Preservation's metal(I'm forgetting it's name), so maybe that was Sazed's or Marsh's "testing ground" for new metals.

[TheBobs]

A plan to breed Mistings is honestly a bit small potatoes for Marsh... but the possibility of Hemalurgy being reborn is a very real threat to the world.

Breed enough mistings together, down generations and you might get a Mistborn?

[Zas678]

Or perhaps what they needed was people who were confirmed non-allomancers for the known metals, but had a high likely hood of actually being allomancers.

They have these 4 (or 6) maybe-allomancers attempt to burn a variety of metals until they finally find one that works, until they find the Lost Metal (Nicrosil). After all, both Marasi and Steris are widely known as non-allomancers, yet are part of the powerful bloodline, the bloodline of the Last Mistborn.

[Vortaan]

Odd thought about why they might be taking women: Is there any reference to women Inquisitors? I can only remember male Inquisitors... I'd be curious if that would actually change anything. And would actually fit old Lord Ladrian's comment that Wax's sister is alive and well... technically Inquisitors are healthier than most people.

[Kurkistan]

Odd thought about why they might be taking women: Is there any reference to women Inquisitors? I can only remember male Inquisitors... I'd be curious if that would actually change anything. And would actually fit old Lord Ladrian's comment that Wax's sister is alive and well... technically Inquisitors are healthier than most people.

Yes, there were female inquisitors. I doubt that they would pick a potentially unwilling candidate, though, assuming that Wax's sister is not in cahoots with the Set.

Number 23

Edited December 22, 2011 by Kurkistan

[Dwoops]

So this is a point for an earlier post, in Scandrial there are 3 magic systems, Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy. From what i have seen in Brandon Sanderson's books each magic system is tied to a shard somehow. There are spren for Honor and Odium, the breath for the shard from warbreaker, and two forms of writing magic on sel (elantris) that relate to two possible shards, aon dor and whatever the Derethi have.

Seeing that there seems to be a one to one ratio of magic systems to shards, we see 3 magic systems in the Mistborn series. Allomancy is most-likely connected to preservation and Hemalurgy to Ruin, but where does Feruchemy come in? Is there possibly another source for this magic? Another shard seems unlikely but I am just guessing at this point.

Another thing worth mentioning, it seems like each magic system has 2 parts, a main part that is usually seen as 'good' and a second part used by the 'evil' shard that is very similar, examples would be spren from honor and voidspren from odium; aon dor on sel and the derethi magic; Allomancy and hemalurgy. All of these magic systems seem to be combatant with each other, similar yet opposite sides of the same coin. Again tying this back to Feruchemy, where does it come from? If it is a magic system tied to a shard, where is it's opposing magic? Is the opposing magic maybe something to do with the earlier hint from brandon "rust and ruin". Maybe there are 4 magic systems on scandrial?, Allomancy from preservation, hemalurgy from Ruin, Someting from whatever rust is, and Feruchemy from another unkown source?

I just wanted to pose a few questions and hypothesis to see what other people think. In no way am i super knowledgeable about a lot of cosmere stuff, but it does interest me and i try. So sorry if i have some facts incorrect.

[natc]

Roshar has 3 shards, yet the Ars Arcanum is convinced that there ought to be a fourth system simply because there are exactly three shards and that's how realmatics work. Odium isn't even on Roshar proper, at that, but is on Braize. Then you have Ashyn in the same solar system, with its own minor system of magic despite complete absence of shards.

AonDor and the other thing I can never spell properly aren't even opposites, as ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing (likely very different from forging) also exist, and as it stands you can very well have a system for every major country/race, all of which are probably using the Dor as the power source.

[Dwoops]

That is kind of what i was going at, the source rather than the magic, but the major magic systems in the novels seem to be connected to a shard and feruchemy is a major magic system and i don't see any connection except that it uses the same metals as allomancy.

[Jondesu]

We know for a fact that Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin.  Magic systems tend to intertwine between Shards, so if two incompatible Shards are on the same planet, you'll get one per Shard and one combined between them.  There's potential for much more, so on Roshar

there could have ended up being 1 each for Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, with another each for the combined Honor/Cultivation, Honor/Odium, and Odium/Cultivation, though it appears that's not what happened.

 The way those magic systems comes about is largely not up to the Shards directly, though they influence the way they can be used through their Intents and possibly some more intentional means.

 

jW

[natc]

That is kind of what i was going at, the source rather than the magic, but the major magic systems in the novels seem to be connected to a shard and feruchemy is a major magic system and i don't see any connection except that it uses the same metals as allomancy.

And yet, as I said, Nalthis is the only major Shardworld so far that doesn't posses magic systems that outnumber the shards inhabiting it. And that's probably only because there was only one shard there for realmatics to act on.

[Bucephalus]

On the subject of the Set trying to breed a Mistborn... that makes no sense whatsoever. To date, the Set have been doing two things: amassing funds and kidnapping women with allomatic bonds. However, given that it's been 10~ generation since Spook's generation, the odds of getting a Mistborn are entirely unlikely. It was clear enough in Mistborn that Mistborn are a once-in-a-lifetime deal, and that was with hundreds of thousands of skaa. With Elendel's far lower population, the odds are incredibly unlikely. Plus, the Set is most likely made up of middle-aged men, so they most likely will only survive for another generation. With six women, one generation is not enough time to get a Mistborn.

 

However, assuming that allomancy works as a recessive trait, and what with the rise of technology, there is a chance the Set does know something about allomancy that the rest of don't. However, I'll bet that it does have to do with Hemalurgy. Living forever has always been sought after, and Marsh has been around for three or four hundred years. If they have access to Atium, they could be trying to get themselves to become immortal. As well, that stand with the atium was empty in SoS...

 

Edit: forgot the address the funds. Odds are, that's going to be used for something less than nice. Given how rare various metals are, they could be trying to get their hands on some of those rare metals.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Bucephalus

[DiscoDubber]

Hi. First post. Isn't Scadrial mentioned in The Letter? Doesn't the writer (Hoid?) talk about Rayse having paid a visit to Scadrial?

How could the Set have Atium? Atium is the "body" of Ruin, isn't it? And then the only place Atium grows is in the Pits, which we saw in SoS, and they don't seem to be growing geodes. The display was empty because its the "Lost Metal." But the biggest flaw I see in that theory is that Sazed is actively holding the power of Ruin, as well as Preservation, and so the two God Metals shouldn't exist anymore.

One more question - sorry! I don't mean to spam...

I see the posts mentioning the Nahlezan. Isn't the connection between a surgebinder and their spren called a Nahl Bond?

[Argent]

But the biggest flaw I see in that theory is that Sazed is actively holding the power of Ruin, as well as Preservation, and so the two God Metals shouldn't exist anymore.

Unless he is not.

 

One more question - sorry! I don't mean to spam...

I see the posts mentioning the Nahlezan. Isn't the connection between a surgebinder and their spren called a Nahl Bond?

 

Nahel bond. But the name of the Trell's original worshippers was Nelazan, so I think it's too much of a stretch to try to relate them, or Trell with Treledees, or Nalt with Nalthis. 

[hoidhunter]

So...two things to mention from this conversation.  I believe that there are numerous references to a second culture of people living on an island on scadrial...While speaking with Wax in Shadows Harmony even alludes to the fact that the second culture of people is considerably more tech advanced when talking about how he has made it too easy for the inhabitants of elendel.

 

Second thing...While I agree that breeding and army of mistings, brainwashing them to be loyal, training them, and moving them to your purpose is not a very well thought out plan...if they have knowledge of hemalurgy, they could once again begin making inquisitors with all the powers of a mistborn.  While this would open them up to Harmony's control...Harmony is really into letting people have free will...I think the only reason he takes direct control of the kandra is because that have a specific contract with them that they cannot operate outside of.

 

Just and idea...

[Moogle]

Hi. First post. Isn't Scadrial mentioned in The Letter? Doesn't the writer (Hoid?) talk about Rayse having paid a visit to Scadrial?

How could the Set have Atium? Atium is the "body" of Ruin, isn't it? And then the only place Atium grows is in the Pits, which we saw in SoS, and they don't seem to be growing geodes. The display was empty because its the "Lost Metal." But the biggest flaw I see in that theory is that Sazed is actively holding the power of Ruin, as well as Preservation, and so the two God Metals shouldn't exist anymore.

One more question - sorry! I don't mean to spam...

I see the posts mentioning the Nahlezan. Isn't the connection between a surgebinder and their spren called a Nahl Bond?

 

I merged your posts together. You can use the Edit button (hover over your post with your cursor) to add more content to your messages so you don't have to post three times.

 

1. The Letter says that Odium has been to Sel (Elantris/Emperor's Soul), not Scadrial.

 

2. There's still a bit of atium left over; Marsh is using some, and some nobles, before Sazed ascended, may have had some secreted away. I don't think the Set has any, but it's not impossible.

[DiscoDubber]

Yes, I figured there may have been an edit feature. Sorry, I'm on the mobile site from a phone.

Thanks for helping me get it straight. It's been awhile since I've listened to WoK (I'm a trucker with not a lot if time to read, so I got hooked on Brandon's work with help Audible). I'm in the process of going back through both Mistborn and Stormlight.

[MrMistborn]

Off topic but I feel like the Trellagist maps of the stars will be very useful when space opera comes around

[ParadoxicalZen]

So...two things to mention from this conversation.  I believe that there are numerous references to a second culture of people living on an island on scadrial...While speaking with Wax in Shadows Harmony even alludes to the fact that the second culture of people is considerably more tech advanced when talking about how he has made it too easy for the inhabitants of elendel.

 

Second thing...While I agree that breeding and army of mistings, brainwashing them to be loyal, training them, and moving them to your purpose is not a very well thought out plan...if they have knowledge of hemalurgy, they could once again begin making inquisitors with all the powers of a mistborn.  While this would open them up to Harmony's control...Harmony is really into letting people have free will...I think the only reason he takes direct control of the kandra is because that have a specific contract with them that they cannot operate outside of.

 

Just and idea...

 

I'm of the impression that the Set definitely want to create something with Hemalurgy for sure

Edited October 25, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[manavortex]

On the subject of the Set trying to breed a Mistborn... that makes no sense whatsoever. To date, the Set have been doing two things: amassing funds and kidnapping women with allomatic bonds. However, given that it's been 10~ generation since Spook's generation, the odds of getting a Mistborn are entirely unlikely.

That doesn't consider the laws of maths and genetics enough. Yes, random Mistborn popping up is an extremely rare thing, because the genetic pool is so diverse. If you narrow that pool further down, you'll end up with much higher chances!

For example, look at (recessively hereditary) albinism. Having an albino appear among a bunch of bunnies (or disgusting crab-things with too-many legs) out of nowhere is extremely unlikely, but as soon as you take some of them who are related to albino bunny-things with too-many-legs, the population will explode.

Edit: Look at Straff and his army of Mistings!

The breeding-thing is actually my favourite ever-since I had the idea before Wax did. (I'd make a splendid Evil Overlord - I look at things and get ideas how to abuse them best..) It would even make some kind of sense, politically speaking. If the Set could pull a Mistborn out of their hat the political landscape of New Elantris would become clay in their hands.

Of course I'm somewhat excited to see what the brilliant and evil plan is that I'm not creative enough to anticipate. I do so love my surprises... *rubhands*

Edited January 7, 2016 by manavortex

[Lews Therin]

Is it possible that Trell could just be a name used but another shard and/or world hopper in disguise? That the religion was already in place but someone else used it for their own purposes and in what we currently know of Scadrial the previous version of this religion has nothing to do with what's going on now.

 

I just realized this whole forum was based off Alloy of law and I just finished reading Shadows of Self, I almost jumped a bit too far forward and began talking about the new metal found and all that jazz.  I'll go look for the appropriate forum for my theory on where that came from.